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On June 30 2014 13:54 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 13:48 BoBiNoU wrote:On June 30 2014 11:59 Deonto wrote:Same goes for statements without any proof :
Terran has less options, leading to a more predictable (and thus more easily "countered") play
Terran has a much higher vulnerability to all-ins (partially fueled by scouting issues)
Terran is way more unforgiving: mistakes and sloppiness are punished harder, and once the race falls behind there is almost no comeback potential (in particular due to the weaker reproducibility)
Terran has an inferior lategame. I'd like to know why you think there is no "proof" or "weight" to these statements. All of them ring pretty true to me. 1) Terran doesn't have a lot options. They have very few early game/harassment options, and they have even fewer viable mid/late game options. The only exception is TvT. 2) I mean, it's pretty true. If you watch SC2 games, you can see this is pretty evident. 3) Terran has the slowest production capabilities in the game. Period. And that is fact. Have you seen what happens when Z/P/T reaches the Terrans production buildings? As well, Terran is the micro/control race of this game(not saying other races don't require it, just that it's really Terrans thing). 4) Terrans late game, is well, not the best.. I'd like to put it some other way, but that's the truth. Main issue being that Terran has such few options to transition into in the late game. QFT. this is pure whine based on personal experience, 1/ that is always been the case : bio or mech and that's pretty much it , no big news here. I'm no BW expert but i think it was pretty much the same back then in terms of choices. 2/ reaper + scans. The only issue is with unscoutable P proxy allins. 3/ have you seen what happened when a terran snipes pylons in a Protoss base or snipes hatcheries/queens ? Same story there. You can argue about the traveling time for units if you want 4/ No latter than last week we witnessed a terran coming back from nowhere on frost ( cant remember the players names though ) See how easy it is to write something like that ? Of course I had time to waste I would go replay fishing and look at pro terrans doing all the above and can conclude that everything is fine. There is definitely something to argue about Terran performances but rathen than whining with the help of selected replays. I would rather try to get interviews from top Terrans to try to understand why they dont play marine/tank anymore in TvZ ( which was pretty popular until the end of WoL ) since almost nothing changed there : tank got a small buff and muta got a regen buff. Is it this that triggered it ? or the cheap very easy to produce / effective mine ? I would also try to understand the change of plays and things like this rather than projecting my probably personal frustration on such a big article gee let me think of the reason marine/tank doesn't work anymore The fact that its hilariously immobile and gets torn apart by P and Z?
this is why it was not used AT ALL in Wol right ?
Once again invalid argument
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Such a huge, detailed post and all I have to say is, remove the Mothership Core then profit.
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United States14827 Posts
On June 30 2014 14:15 BoBiNoU wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 13:54 Shaella wrote:On June 30 2014 13:48 BoBiNoU wrote:On June 30 2014 11:59 Deonto wrote:Same goes for statements without any proof :
Terran has less options, leading to a more predictable (and thus more easily "countered") play
Terran has a much higher vulnerability to all-ins (partially fueled by scouting issues)
Terran is way more unforgiving: mistakes and sloppiness are punished harder, and once the race falls behind there is almost no comeback potential (in particular due to the weaker reproducibility)
Terran has an inferior lategame. I'd like to know why you think there is no "proof" or "weight" to these statements. All of them ring pretty true to me. 1) Terran doesn't have a lot options. They have very few early game/harassment options, and they have even fewer viable mid/late game options. The only exception is TvT. 2) I mean, it's pretty true. If you watch SC2 games, you can see this is pretty evident. 3) Terran has the slowest production capabilities in the game. Period. And that is fact. Have you seen what happens when Z/P/T reaches the Terrans production buildings? As well, Terran is the micro/control race of this game(not saying other races don't require it, just that it's really Terrans thing). 4) Terrans late game, is well, not the best.. I'd like to put it some other way, but that's the truth. Main issue being that Terran has such few options to transition into in the late game. QFT. this is pure whine based on personal experience, 1/ that is always been the case : bio or mech and that's pretty much it , no big news here. I'm no BW expert but i think it was pretty much the same back then in terms of choices. 2/ reaper + scans. The only issue is with unscoutable P proxy allins. 3/ have you seen what happened when a terran snipes pylons in a Protoss base or snipes hatcheries/queens ? Same story there. You can argue about the traveling time for units if you want 4/ No latter than last week we witnessed a terran coming back from nowhere on frost ( cant remember the players names though ) See how easy it is to write something like that ? Of course I had time to waste I would go replay fishing and look at pro terrans doing all the above and can conclude that everything is fine. There is definitely something to argue about Terran performances but rathen than whining with the help of selected replays. I would rather try to get interviews from top Terrans to try to understand why they dont play marine/tank anymore in TvZ ( which was pretty popular until the end of WoL ) since almost nothing changed there : tank got a small buff and muta got a regen buff. Is it this that triggered it ? or the cheap very easy to produce / effective mine ? I would also try to understand the change of plays and things like this rather than projecting my probably personal frustration on such a big article gee let me think of the reason marine/tank doesn't work anymore The fact that its hilariously immobile and gets torn apart by P and Z? this is why it was not used AT ALL in Wol right ? Once again invalid argument
HotS isn't WoL
I don't understand how WoL is relevant to why marine/tank is crap in HotS.
But if we MUST
Vipers exist for zerg.
Tanks are bad against toss anyways.
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United States14827 Posts
On June 30 2014 13:58 MrLightning wrote:
The impression I was expecting to get from this thread was that people are concerned that Terran is not consistently getting into the higher brackets of major tournaments. (Which is true). The impression I actually got was that people are complaining that Terran is not winning every major tournament. Like 100% of them, which is ridiculous. And highly disturbing. I actually want Terran to dominate now. To see if it provokes similar reaction. I am betting it wont. Or if it does it will be quickly and efficiently shut down. I dont care who is on top but please dont claim to be on the side of balance when it is clear that you want your race to be on top. I cant stand this hypocrisy.
the problem is
only 1 terran player is winning, ever. Taeja
And Taeja is beating up on foreigners, not winning GSL.
And secondly, just look at how few Terrans are getting into Ro8s and Ro4s. Thats ungodly telling.
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On June 30 2014 14:15 BoBiNoU wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 13:54 Shaella wrote:On June 30 2014 13:48 BoBiNoU wrote:On June 30 2014 11:59 Deonto wrote:Same goes for statements without any proof :
Terran has less options, leading to a more predictable (and thus more easily "countered") play
Terran has a much higher vulnerability to all-ins (partially fueled by scouting issues)
Terran is way more unforgiving: mistakes and sloppiness are punished harder, and once the race falls behind there is almost no comeback potential (in particular due to the weaker reproducibility)
Terran has an inferior lategame. I'd like to know why you think there is no "proof" or "weight" to these statements. All of them ring pretty true to me. 1) Terran doesn't have a lot options. They have very few early game/harassment options, and they have even fewer viable mid/late game options. The only exception is TvT. 2) I mean, it's pretty true. If you watch SC2 games, you can see this is pretty evident. 3) Terran has the slowest production capabilities in the game. Period. And that is fact. Have you seen what happens when Z/P/T reaches the Terrans production buildings? As well, Terran is the micro/control race of this game(not saying other races don't require it, just that it's really Terrans thing). 4) Terrans late game, is well, not the best.. I'd like to put it some other way, but that's the truth. Main issue being that Terran has such few options to transition into in the late game. QFT. this is pure whine based on personal experience, 1/ that is always been the case : bio or mech and that's pretty much it , no big news here. I'm no BW expert but i think it was pretty much the same back then in terms of choices. 2/ reaper + scans. The only issue is with unscoutable P proxy allins. 3/ have you seen what happened when a terran snipes pylons in a Protoss base or snipes hatcheries/queens ? Same story there. You can argue about the traveling time for units if you want 4/ No latter than last week we witnessed a terran coming back from nowhere on frost ( cant remember the players names though ) See how easy it is to write something like that ? Of course I had time to waste I would go replay fishing and look at pro terrans doing all the above and can conclude that everything is fine. There is definitely something to argue about Terran performances but rathen than whining with the help of selected replays. I would rather try to get interviews from top Terrans to try to understand why they dont play marine/tank anymore in TvZ ( which was pretty popular until the end of WoL ) since almost nothing changed there : tank got a small buff and muta got a regen buff. Is it this that triggered it ? or the cheap very easy to produce / effective mine ? I would also try to understand the change of plays and things like this rather than projecting my probably personal frustration on such a big article gee let me think of the reason marine/tank doesn't work anymore The fact that its hilariously immobile and gets torn apart by P and Z? this is why it was not used AT ALL in Wol right ? Once again invalid argument
Are you slow or something? We're not playing WoL anymore, HotS is a faster paced game in which Zerg has numerous new and improved tools for killing tanks.
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Yea this reads like something TheDwf would write. A lot of evidence and experience, but extremely insulting and rude to non-Terrans and often times missing in logic. For example, the examples in the power of protoss are missing severe holes, the Inno vs. Welmu game for example, you talked about how keeping Terran compositions balanced between ghosts and vikings vs. HT and colossi, but there were no ghosts at first. 3 ghosts came in late and did nothing in particular.
The innovation versus Naniwa example, you can tell me all about your grandmaster experience blah blah blah, but the story on the screen tells the story. The vikings of innovation are clumped together directly underneath the archons, and innovation isn't kiting at all until all the vikings are dead.
Also, analyzing engagements in a vacuum is idiotic in the first place. An entire game goes on before that which shapes the engagements long before they occur is ignored because "herp derp Protoss a-move"
You had an opportunity to actually discuss the legitimate issues with Terran, offer solutions, and try to convince other people to pressure Blizzard into actual fixes. Instead you wrote this, which combines the whiny attitudes of Twitch chat and the battle.net forums, while disguising them with TL graphics and actual evidence. If you had used the evidence in a sensible, respectable post instead of this veiled QQ fest, you might have gotten a lot more support.
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On June 30 2014 13:53 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 13:38 Painiyff wrote:
One of the perks of being in a mathematics major is that it is easy to recognize such completely informal articles. Sure there is "statistics" in this paper, but no statistical evidence/analysis to prove that sc is actually imbalanced.
Instead, someone should do a 95% confidence interval for a terran's win rate over past xxx months, and determine if 0.5 is within that interval.
Only after that will there be statistical evidence proving that terran is underpowered. Terran's wins where? Globally? Player populations and skill levels differ massively. In major / premier tournaments only? Same problem applies, the same top Koreans participate in foreigner tournaments and skew the statistics completely. In Code S / Premier league only? Most terrans get knocked out in Challenger / Code A, only the best of the best (namely Taeja and Maru) are even in Premier league. Unless you think 2 individuals are a good representation and sample size of the whole race. Starcraft 2 isn't a controlled environment, balance patches happen all the time, players and teams choose whether or not they participate in tournaments, etc. Try answering any of the technical points raised in the OP instead of dismissing it because it doesn't have perfect statistical analysis, because there can't be perfect statistical analysis when regions are segregated and only certain individuals get invited or can afford to travel.
What you said is completely true. But then the points you raised could be also raised in essentially any other statistical test. Statistics would be too easy if all variables can be controlled.
Are presidential surveys accurate? Not if they are only conducted on internet/phone users.
And I'm not intending to dismiss any of OP's arguments, but the selection seems very peculiar to me. All these odd data charts and tables shows more bias than statistics to me.
"Mathematical Evidence is more than nothing, but it's not everything." How's that?
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On June 30 2014 14:15 BoBiNoU wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 13:54 Shaella wrote:On June 30 2014 13:48 BoBiNoU wrote:On June 30 2014 11:59 Deonto wrote:Same goes for statements without any proof :
Terran has less options, leading to a more predictable (and thus more easily "countered") play
Terran has a much higher vulnerability to all-ins (partially fueled by scouting issues)
Terran is way more unforgiving: mistakes and sloppiness are punished harder, and once the race falls behind there is almost no comeback potential (in particular due to the weaker reproducibility)
Terran has an inferior lategame. I'd like to know why you think there is no "proof" or "weight" to these statements. All of them ring pretty true to me. 1) Terran doesn't have a lot options. They have very few early game/harassment options, and they have even fewer viable mid/late game options. The only exception is TvT. 2) I mean, it's pretty true. If you watch SC2 games, you can see this is pretty evident. 3) Terran has the slowest production capabilities in the game. Period. And that is fact. Have you seen what happens when Z/P/T reaches the Terrans production buildings? As well, Terran is the micro/control race of this game(not saying other races don't require it, just that it's really Terrans thing). 4) Terrans late game, is well, not the best.. I'd like to put it some other way, but that's the truth. Main issue being that Terran has such few options to transition into in the late game. QFT. this is pure whine based on personal experience, 1/ that is always been the case : bio or mech and that's pretty much it , no big news here. I'm no BW expert but i think it was pretty much the same back then in terms of choices. 2/ reaper + scans. The only issue is with unscoutable P proxy allins. 3/ have you seen what happened when a terran snipes pylons in a Protoss base or snipes hatcheries/queens ? Same story there. You can argue about the traveling time for units if you want 4/ No latter than last week we witnessed a terran coming back from nowhere on frost ( cant remember the players names though ) See how easy it is to write something like that ? Of course I had time to waste I would go replay fishing and look at pro terrans doing all the above and can conclude that everything is fine. There is definitely something to argue about Terran performances but rathen than whining with the help of selected replays. I would rather try to get interviews from top Terrans to try to understand why they dont play marine/tank anymore in TvZ ( which was pretty popular until the end of WoL ) since almost nothing changed there : tank got a small buff and muta got a regen buff. Is it this that triggered it ? or the cheap very easy to produce / effective mine ? I would also try to understand the change of plays and things like this rather than projecting my probably personal frustration on such a big article gee let me think of the reason marine/tank doesn't work anymore The fact that its hilariously immobile and gets torn apart by P and Z? this is why it was not used AT ALL in Wol right ? Once again invalid argument
What are you talking about, this is a completely different game...zergs now have Mutas that regen faster/move faster and have vipers+swarm hosts lol. Good luck tank pushin' outside of super strict timing windows yo
your argument is invalid
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The front page of TL is no place for thedwf's balance whine. Let him write that crap in the balance discussion section as he has been doing forever.
Sure, he put a lot of work into the piece, and there are a lot of links to games and statistics etc. that "prove" his point. But at the end of the day, it's not written like a research paper. It's written like balance whine.
I'm disappointed TL would features such an article on its front page.
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On June 30 2014 13:48 BoBiNoU wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 11:59 Deonto wrote:Same goes for statements without any proof :
Terran has less options, leading to a more predictable (and thus more easily "countered") play
Terran has a much higher vulnerability to all-ins (partially fueled by scouting issues)
Terran is way more unforgiving: mistakes and sloppiness are punished harder, and once the race falls behind there is almost no comeback potential (in particular due to the weaker reproducibility)
Terran has an inferior lategame. I'd like to know why you think there is no "proof" or "weight" to these statements. All of them ring pretty true to me. 1) Terran doesn't have a lot options. They have very few early game/harassment options, and they have even fewer viable mid/late game options. The only exception is TvT. 2) I mean, it's pretty true. If you watch SC2 games, you can see this is pretty evident. 3) Terran has the slowest production capabilities in the game. Period. And that is fact. Have you seen what happens when Z/P/T reaches the Terrans production buildings? As well, Terran is the micro/control race of this game(not saying other races don't require it, just that it's really Terrans thing). 4) Terrans late game, is well, not the best.. I'd like to put it some other way, but that's the truth. Main issue being that Terran has such few options to transition into in the late game. QFT. this is pure whine based on personal experience, 1/ that is always been the case : bio or mech and that's pretty much it , no big news here. I'm no BW expert but i think it was pretty much the same back then in terms of choices. 2/ reaper + scans. The only issue is with unscoutable P proxy allins. 3/ have you seen what happened when a terran snipes pylons in a Protoss base or snipes hatcheries/queens ? Same story there. You can argue about the traveling time for units if you want 4/ No latter than last week we witnessed a terran coming back from nowhere on frost ( cant remember the players names though ) See how easy it is to write something like that ? Of course I had time to waste I would go replay fishing and look at pro terrans doing all the above and can conclude that everything is fine. There is definitely something to argue about Terran performances but rathen than whining with the help of selected replays. I would rather try to get interviews from top Terrans to try to understand why they dont play marine/tank anymore in TvZ ( which was pretty popular until the end of WoL ) since almost nothing changed there : tank got a small buff and muta got a regen buff. Is it this that triggered it ? or the cheap very easy to produce / effective mine ? I would also try to understand the change of plays and things like this rather than projecting my probably personal frustration on such a big article
To sum up my previous post on tanks:
They were junk by mid-2012 WoL. Tanks harldy ever got more than one shot off and ever since the queen patch, if the terran wants to push, they'll have to do it on creep. Tanks on creep = lol. Widow mines are far and away cheaper and faster to produce than tanks, and they have the exact same role (one-shot then death) plus they can hit air (which is huge, especially with Wolverine-Mutas). Mines are also a lot better at zoning than tanks, partially because of the AA capability, but also because they're 1 less supply and a lot harder to spot and pick off. Using the extra savings (cost and supply) on marauders gives the meatiness the tanks had. Plus marauders move with the marines, which means you'll have the meat shield where you need it. When it was MT, if your marines strayed to far from the tanks, banes could end the game. Marauders make it slightly more forgiving by tanking banes. Mines and Maruaders >>> Tanks against Muta/Ling/Bane.
Not to mention SwarmHosts and Vipers. A good blinding cloud will kill you outright.
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Great post but what's lacking is any kind of concrete suggestion on how to fix the situation.
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I guess terrans should be happy about the future
WoL ended completely broken in favor of Broodlord/Infestor Zerg
It looks like HotS will continue to be dominated by Protoss for a long time
By that logic, Terran will dominate from about a year or so after LotV release!!!!!!!!!
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United States14827 Posts
On June 30 2014 14:35 Ace Frehley wrote:
I guess terrans should be happy about the future
WoL ended completely broken in favor of Broodlord/Infestor Zerg
It looks like HotS will continue to be dominated by Protoss for a long time
By that logic, Terran will dominate from about a year or so after LotV release!!!!!!!!!
and then
Hybrids introduced as playable race
Hybrids dominate end of LotV, Terran even weaker than before
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On June 30 2014 14:23 binski wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 14:15 BoBiNoU wrote:On June 30 2014 13:54 Shaella wrote:On June 30 2014 13:48 BoBiNoU wrote:On June 30 2014 11:59 Deonto wrote:Same goes for statements without any proof :
Terran has less options, leading to a more predictable (and thus more easily "countered") play
Terran has a much higher vulnerability to all-ins (partially fueled by scouting issues)
Terran is way more unforgiving: mistakes and sloppiness are punished harder, and once the race falls behind there is almost no comeback potential (in particular due to the weaker reproducibility)
Terran has an inferior lategame. I'd like to know why you think there is no "proof" or "weight" to these statements. All of them ring pretty true to me. 1) Terran doesn't have a lot options. They have very few early game/harassment options, and they have even fewer viable mid/late game options. The only exception is TvT. 2) I mean, it's pretty true. If you watch SC2 games, you can see this is pretty evident. 3) Terran has the slowest production capabilities in the game. Period. And that is fact. Have you seen what happens when Z/P/T reaches the Terrans production buildings? As well, Terran is the micro/control race of this game(not saying other races don't require it, just that it's really Terrans thing). 4) Terrans late game, is well, not the best.. I'd like to put it some other way, but that's the truth. Main issue being that Terran has such few options to transition into in the late game. QFT. this is pure whine based on personal experience, 1/ that is always been the case : bio or mech and that's pretty much it , no big news here. I'm no BW expert but i think it was pretty much the same back then in terms of choices. 2/ reaper + scans. The only issue is with unscoutable P proxy allins. 3/ have you seen what happened when a terran snipes pylons in a Protoss base or snipes hatcheries/queens ? Same story there. You can argue about the traveling time for units if you want 4/ No latter than last week we witnessed a terran coming back from nowhere on frost ( cant remember the players names though ) See how easy it is to write something like that ? Of course I had time to waste I would go replay fishing and look at pro terrans doing all the above and can conclude that everything is fine. There is definitely something to argue about Terran performances but rathen than whining with the help of selected replays. I would rather try to get interviews from top Terrans to try to understand why they dont play marine/tank anymore in TvZ ( which was pretty popular until the end of WoL ) since almost nothing changed there : tank got a small buff and muta got a regen buff. Is it this that triggered it ? or the cheap very easy to produce / effective mine ? I would also try to understand the change of plays and things like this rather than projecting my probably personal frustration on such a big article gee let me think of the reason marine/tank doesn't work anymore The fact that its hilariously immobile and gets torn apart by P and Z? this is why it was not used AT ALL in Wol right ? Once again invalid argument What are you talking about, this is a completely different game...zergs now have Mutas that regen faster/move faster and have vipers+swarm hosts lol. Good luck tank pushin' outside of super strict timing windows yo your argument is invalid
You're seriously talking about tier 3 zerg now ?
Ah well wont waste my time -_-
It's better to whine.
I'll leave you to that 
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This is the longest most detailed balance whine ever written.
I don't disagree with it. Terran is definitively "behind" the other races in every category. Mines were too good, Hellbats were too good. They had to be nerfed. That was all Terran had though. They need something new. Not sure what. New unit or ability or some revolutionary new build.
Nerfs to Photon Overcharge wouldn't hurt either. Even just a 150 energy cost would probably help alot
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Thx TheDwf. Great analysis. I hope Dkim and his balance team is reading your work. Your work is brilliant. Your arguments are logical and backed up by evidence. You stopped the critique of "Terran Whining".
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United States14827 Posts
On June 30 2014 14:39 BoBiNoU wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 14:23 binski wrote:On June 30 2014 14:15 BoBiNoU wrote:On June 30 2014 13:54 Shaella wrote:On June 30 2014 13:48 BoBiNoU wrote:On June 30 2014 11:59 Deonto wrote:Same goes for statements without any proof :
Terran has less options, leading to a more predictable (and thus more easily "countered") play
Terran has a much higher vulnerability to all-ins (partially fueled by scouting issues)
Terran is way more unforgiving: mistakes and sloppiness are punished harder, and once the race falls behind there is almost no comeback potential (in particular due to the weaker reproducibility)
Terran has an inferior lategame. I'd like to know why you think there is no "proof" or "weight" to these statements. All of them ring pretty true to me. 1) Terran doesn't have a lot options. They have very few early game/harassment options, and they have even fewer viable mid/late game options. The only exception is TvT. 2) I mean, it's pretty true. If you watch SC2 games, you can see this is pretty evident. 3) Terran has the slowest production capabilities in the game. Period. And that is fact. Have you seen what happens when Z/P/T reaches the Terrans production buildings? As well, Terran is the micro/control race of this game(not saying other races don't require it, just that it's really Terrans thing). 4) Terrans late game, is well, not the best.. I'd like to put it some other way, but that's the truth. Main issue being that Terran has such few options to transition into in the late game. QFT. this is pure whine based on personal experience, 1/ that is always been the case : bio or mech and that's pretty much it , no big news here. I'm no BW expert but i think it was pretty much the same back then in terms of choices. 2/ reaper + scans. The only issue is with unscoutable P proxy allins. 3/ have you seen what happened when a terran snipes pylons in a Protoss base or snipes hatcheries/queens ? Same story there. You can argue about the traveling time for units if you want 4/ No latter than last week we witnessed a terran coming back from nowhere on frost ( cant remember the players names though ) See how easy it is to write something like that ? Of course I had time to waste I would go replay fishing and look at pro terrans doing all the above and can conclude that everything is fine. There is definitely something to argue about Terran performances but rathen than whining with the help of selected replays. I would rather try to get interviews from top Terrans to try to understand why they dont play marine/tank anymore in TvZ ( which was pretty popular until the end of WoL ) since almost nothing changed there : tank got a small buff and muta got a regen buff. Is it this that triggered it ? or the cheap very easy to produce / effective mine ? I would also try to understand the change of plays and things like this rather than projecting my probably personal frustration on such a big article gee let me think of the reason marine/tank doesn't work anymore The fact that its hilariously immobile and gets torn apart by P and Z? this is why it was not used AT ALL in Wol right ? Once again invalid argument What are you talking about, this is a completely different game...zergs now have Mutas that regen faster/move faster and have vipers+swarm hosts lol. Good luck tank pushin' outside of super strict timing windows yo your argument is invalid You're seriously talking about tier 3 zerg now ? Ah well wont waste my time -_- It's better to whine. I'll leave you to that
...
So wait, we provide examples of why marine/tank doesn't work and you say they don't count because they're tier 3
I just.
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This write up was brilliant, it really hit the nail on the head.
I remember when Terran was so fucking feared, when those early 4rax reaper builds just wrecked zerg so hard that zerg tears were cheap to come by. Now it's the other way around, and I don't think anyone would have believed that back in 2010.
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On June 30 2014 14:46 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 14:39 BoBiNoU wrote:On June 30 2014 14:23 binski wrote:On June 30 2014 14:15 BoBiNoU wrote:On June 30 2014 13:54 Shaella wrote:On June 30 2014 13:48 BoBiNoU wrote:On June 30 2014 11:59 Deonto wrote:Same goes for statements without any proof :
Terran has less options, leading to a more predictable (and thus more easily "countered") play
Terran has a much higher vulnerability to all-ins (partially fueled by scouting issues)
Terran is way more unforgiving: mistakes and sloppiness are punished harder, and once the race falls behind there is almost no comeback potential (in particular due to the weaker reproducibility)
Terran has an inferior lategame. I'd like to know why you think there is no "proof" or "weight" to these statements. All of them ring pretty true to me. 1) Terran doesn't have a lot options. They have very few early game/harassment options, and they have even fewer viable mid/late game options. The only exception is TvT. 2) I mean, it's pretty true. If you watch SC2 games, you can see this is pretty evident. 3) Terran has the slowest production capabilities in the game. Period. And that is fact. Have you seen what happens when Z/P/T reaches the Terrans production buildings? As well, Terran is the micro/control race of this game(not saying other races don't require it, just that it's really Terrans thing). 4) Terrans late game, is well, not the best.. I'd like to put it some other way, but that's the truth. Main issue being that Terran has such few options to transition into in the late game. QFT. this is pure whine based on personal experience, 1/ that is always been the case : bio or mech and that's pretty much it , no big news here. I'm no BW expert but i think it was pretty much the same back then in terms of choices. 2/ reaper + scans. The only issue is with unscoutable P proxy allins. 3/ have you seen what happened when a terran snipes pylons in a Protoss base or snipes hatcheries/queens ? Same story there. You can argue about the traveling time for units if you want 4/ No latter than last week we witnessed a terran coming back from nowhere on frost ( cant remember the players names though ) See how easy it is to write something like that ? Of course I had time to waste I would go replay fishing and look at pro terrans doing all the above and can conclude that everything is fine. There is definitely something to argue about Terran performances but rathen than whining with the help of selected replays. I would rather try to get interviews from top Terrans to try to understand why they dont play marine/tank anymore in TvZ ( which was pretty popular until the end of WoL ) since almost nothing changed there : tank got a small buff and muta got a regen buff. Is it this that triggered it ? or the cheap very easy to produce / effective mine ? I would also try to understand the change of plays and things like this rather than projecting my probably personal frustration on such a big article gee let me think of the reason marine/tank doesn't work anymore The fact that its hilariously immobile and gets torn apart by P and Z? this is why it was not used AT ALL in Wol right ? Once again invalid argument What are you talking about, this is a completely different game...zergs now have Mutas that regen faster/move faster and have vipers+swarm hosts lol. Good luck tank pushin' outside of super strict timing windows yo your argument is invalid You're seriously talking about tier 3 zerg now ? Ah well wont waste my time -_- It's better to whine. I'll leave you to that ... So wait, we provide examples of why marine/tank doesn't work and you say they don't count because they're tier 3 I just.
Not to mention that neither mutas nor swarm hosts even require a hive...
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