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A+ for grammar and presentation, C+ for tone. While obviously a lot of work went into writing this article and researching relevant games, it comes off a touch whiny. Statements about how some races are A-move and "hands off keyboard would have done the same thing" are the touch of insult that puts non-terran readers back on the defensive. Why soil an otherwise-good article?
Anyway, I can really only comment this in PvT, but I could agree that the MSC needs some looking at. It's made Protoss early-game too strong and greedy where before it was a bit too weak and fragile. Specifically, Photon overcharge needs some more tweaking and in my unprofessional opinion the nerf should be in duration. Recall is great in PvZ as it really opens up Protoss ability to go do pokes without trading every unit you've built for lings, but Overcharge lasting so long makes PvT too safe.
Well written, dwf.
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"the balance team need to do something and quickly".
Yet the hellbat change is very new, the msc nerf / ghost buff / mine vs toss buff are not that old.
the latest changes of Bilzzard are far not enough.
MSC is simply too big of a help for Protoss.
The way Toss teched up in WoL and does it atm is appaling. Being safe against basically everything while teching up and/or expanding without an army is huge! And still having numerous options of allins! lol
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On June 30 2014 09:22 Superbanana wrote:
This, i coudn't agree more.
Im sorry to say that to all those ego inflated people that think they lose because they picked the weak race, you just lack skill. The winrates are not even that bad, and terran was buffed recently. Protoss was nerfed. And people come here and claim nothing was done about it.
Right now winrates are favoured for terran in TvP, and protoss has the overall lowest winrate (check aligulac), the skilled terrans are doing fine.
People made these exact same types of comments during the BL/Infestor era.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
blizz's simplistic design principle for terran strategy is the ultimate culprit. lel let's make it simpler by making m&m dominant and early game/harassy. it'll be exciting and distinctive! sure it is distinctive for about 10 games then it becomes repetitive, and the reliance on micro and the heavy asymmetry makes for hard balancing.
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This is one of te best reads i've ever seen. Made me realise how some uncalled patches end up ruining the balance resulting in #dedgame. I hope DK gets to read this and pass down the balance job to someone else, preferably the guy who wrote this.
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Terran definitely needs it's own static defense besides planetaries. Defending counter attacks is getting ridiculous
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On June 30 2014 10:56 creamyturtle wrote:
Terran definitely needs it's own static defense besides planetaries. Defending counter attacks is getting ridiculous
you gotta build bunker near your mineral lines and surround it with a wall of supply depots lol.
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On June 30 2014 11:11 Riner1212 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 10:56 creamyturtle wrote:
Terran definitely needs it's own static defense besides planetaries. Defending counter attacks is getting ridiculous you gotta build bunker near your mineral lines and surround it with a wall of supply depots lol.
I have no problems with that when terran plays bio. I think proper supply depot placement increases the skill cap, and it helps to distinguish between good terrans and great terrans. You can tell when you're looking at flash level depots and vanilla GM depots.
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On June 30 2014 08:52 Picasso wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 08:35 kingcars wrote:
Right, just like how Blizzard was so cautious when buffing the Oracle. Oh, so if one patch is done a bit carelessly all the other patches following should be done carelessly for fairness' sake, right? AND if you still suffer from oracles badly, that's entirely on you. Initially I was the one advocating the oracle speed rollback as it gave me headaches in PvP. But now? With the same builds with which I lost to pre-patch oracle all-ins, now I win against post-patch oracle all-ins. I try using oracles in PvT but they never do damage because no terran is ever unprepared for it these days, as tweaks in builds allowed for Terrans to have enough preparation to establish a safe mineral line. Before the patch, casting revelation on an opponent's army meant sacrificing the oracle because it wasn't fast nor tanky enough to escape. If you're gonna bring up a whine about a unit, be prepared to thoroughly defend yourself. And because Terran players always love to undermine any non-Terran player's skills, let's look at the latest GSL. Maru is currently rank 1 GM in Korea. He has something like ~70% vs P win ratio in the KR GM LADDER, and his TvP is his best matchup. Obviously he's been faring well against the best protosses the world has to offer. But he lost to Classic 4:2. Think that says anything about how good of a player Classic is? Oh nvm, I forgot that all Classic had to do was 1A, my bad guys. Terran players are asking for hate when their QQ on Twitch chat knows no limit and no Terran player would ever praise a Protoss or Zerg player's skill. "soO could've lifted his hands off the keyboard and nothing would've changed" seriously? I don't care if I get a warning for this, thedwf who the fuck do you think you are dismissing and undermining the world's best Zerg's gameplay? User was warned for this post
Man, if your feelings are so hurt over a thread you must be a real sensitive person in real life. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions even if it means on stepping on other people toes. Fact of the matter is, not many terran players are well represented in GSL which makes the most toughest tournament in sc2 boring to watch. Its mostly z v z and p v p or z v p. If you care so much and want to address your issues, why dont you write your article and justify yourself. I mean i do agree, the author shouldn't have insulted the players playing other races in terms of their skill. I am sure all races require skill to play to an extent, but if you look at most G.M ladder on all servers terran is least represented. which shows that terran is the least forgiving race.
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Thanks for writing this up, it gives some voice and analysis to the frustrations I've definitely faced on ladder as Terran - Zerg and Protoss having very scary pressure options that still allow macro if I hold them off, and the lose lategame fight = instantly lose game syndrome in both matchups.
To the people complaining about tone - please put yourselves in a Terran's shoes. Ladder is incredibly frustrating personally and the figureheads of your race are dropping like flies....there never were many outside of Korea in the first place, and now even the Korean Terrans are disappearing from Code S. It used to be that you could look to one of several different Korean Terrans with different playstyles; now unless you're a Maru/Polt/Taeja fan you're out of luck (and even those last two aren't in the most prestigious, challenging league anymore). Among foreigners it's even worse - Protoss and especially Zerg have any number of foreign heroes to cheer on, anyone fancy the chances of a foreign Terran taking up the banner to challenge for a trophy?
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I am pretty practical person. at the end of the day all of us just play this game for fun and laughs, none of us here are aspiring to go pro's and to make a living out of this game lol so why bother? All games have a shelf lives, and many of us will move on to other games or hobbies that interest us.
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Meh, this is a long whine about T being UP, I am T myself, and the most decent part of the whole article is the fact that early TvP sux because MotherCore.
A lot of other things are subjective, and the author of the thread takes separated facts with no relation between them to make the Terran race feel worse.
Terran is hard to play but rewards high skill ceilling, it has almost no All Ins and his gameplay outside standard is even harder to make it work.
Protoss has a huge advantage on early game thanks to MotherCore, which also helps a lot with their infinte list of opens, all-ins, builds, etc
Zerg is in middle of both, after the Queen Patch from WoL it is hard to pressure them, but there are tools to do it, and they can micro a lot their units, but they have the most unforgivable macro mechanics, so you should be better aware of Macro instead Micro when your units will usually die and you won't be able to remake them properly.
Blizzard won't nerf MotherCore neither the Queen, so nothing to do here, just try to do the best and enjoy the game. Most of us don't lose money and play for fun. QQing won't work, so we can only keep playing better and waiting, at the end, if the pros whine about all this, Blizz will need to do something because on that scene it is a business.
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Agreed, let Blizzard figure this crap out. I'm just enjoying occasional 1v1 but most of the time spend in team games. It's sad the game is dying though.
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Well written and very articulate and thorough post. It encasulates the current state-of-game for Terran over the last 7 months and their signifcant underrepresentation. For anyone who tries to nullify these points, especially with the overwhelming amount of data not just from this post but from sites like aligulac, I question their intentions to want this game to succeed. Who knows, sometimes people would prefer to boost their ego with easy ladder points than see a game with equally performing races...
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On June 30 2014 10:03 GoStu wrote:
A+ for grammar and presentation, C+ for tone. While obviously a lot of work went into writing this article and researching relevant games, it comes off a touch whiny. Statements about how some races are A-move and "hands off keyboard would have done the same thing" are the touch of insult that puts non-terran readers back on the defensive. Why soil an otherwise-good article?
Yeah I'd echo the sentiment above, this is like a 10K+ word thesis with dozens of footnotes -- if nothing else the author pours his heart and soul into it and I respect that. He supports his yes opinionated arguments with heaps of evidence and I think he makes a lot of good points about terran that reflect a deep understanding of how the game is structured.
But there is seriously no need for the combative and hostile tone; it's as if the author is writing as one of the last surviving Terrans at the Alamo. On the other hand, you would never get a 25 page footnoted thesis from someone who wasn't that passionate, so I suppose it goes with the territory.
Let's not forget to put things into context. The author writes as if there is a conspiracy by Blizzard to undermine Terran: the reality is that Terran has spent long stretches of SC2, both WoL and HotS, as the most successful race. And when Terran has struggled in 2014, Blizzard has already put out three major patches to buff it. Blizzard's m.o. is simple and transparent: to achieve balance parity between all 3 races. Blizzard isn't perfect, but it's not exactly easy to steer the car perfectly straight down the middle of a constantly winding, bending road. And if you look at the balance report, you would see that Blizzard has done a pretty good job. No matchup has ever exceeded a 55% winrate this year.
I do agree with the author in that I doubt the recent hellbat buff will have much long-term effect and my feeling is that it's not enough. I think part of Terran's problems are structural: they are a race that are intrinsically powerful in the midgame but weaker in the lategame, and as the other races perfect their builds, over time they're better able to hold off Terran's midgame pushes and survive into a lategame where they are favoured. In other words, the way Terran is designed, they become weaker over time, and that may be a fundamental flaw.
Personally I'd like to see Terran get a better lategame so that they can match the other races, otherwise this problem will persist. The fact that marines and marauders are the backbone of the terran army whether at 5:00 or 30:00 indicates to me a fundamental problem with the race. Terran have no lategame because unlike the other races there is nothing to transition to.
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And this got promoted on first page :/
A 2 lines or 1000 lines post about balance whining is still balance whining especially with the tone used ...
It is unfortunately very easy to get whatever your want out of stats especially when you pick ones that back up your arguments ( and ignore those which don't )
Same goes for statements without any proof :
Terran has less options, leading to a more predictable (and thus more easily "countered") play
Terran has a much higher vulnerability to all-ins (partially fueled by scouting issues)
Terran is way more unforgiving: mistakes and sloppiness are punished harder, and once the race falls behind there is almost no comeback potential (in particular due to the weaker reproducibility)
Terran has an inferior lategame.
or also
And after the Queen patch, it wasn't properly working at the end of WoL either. Terrans kept playing Marines/Tanks because there was nothing else to do, but the old Marines/Tanks pushes were unable to stop Zerg's developement towards Hive: there was too much on too much creep, and the window was too short.
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Blizzard won't nerf MotherCore neither the Queen, so nothing to do here, just try to do the best and enjoy the game. Most of us don't lose money and play for fun. QQing won't work, so we can only keep playing better and waiting, at the end, if the pros whine about all this, Blizz will need to do something because on that scene it is a business.
It's just that the game is not much fun to play. I don't expect a perfect balanced game, because you won't ever get this and part of the fun is adjusting to a race strengths/weakness.
Nonetheless, I quit playing because of TvP (and I don't like 2v2 etc). I have no fun playing this game because of 1/3 of my matches.
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On June 30 2014 11:23 jubil wrote:
Thanks for writing this up, it gives some voice and analysis to the frustrations I've definitely faced on ladder as Terran - Zerg and Protoss having very scary pressure options that still allow macro if I hold them off, and the lose lategame fight = instantly lose game syndrome in both matchups.
To the people complaining about tone - please put yourselves in a Terran's shoes. Ladder is incredibly frustrating personally and the figureheads of your race are dropping like flies....there never were many outside of Korea in the first place, and now even the Korean Terrans are disappearing from Code S. It used to be that you could look to one of several different Korean Terrans with different playstyles; now unless you're a Maru/Polt/Taeja fan you're out of luck (and even those last two aren't in the most prestigious, challenging league anymore). Among foreigners it's even worse - Protoss and especially Zerg have any number of foreign heroes to cheer on, anyone fancy the chances of a foreign Terran taking up the banner to challenge for a trophy?
I can put myself in terran shoes, since i offrace terran so much it might not be an offrace anymore. Its ok to voice your frustration when its done in a proper tone like you did. Terran was strong when WoL was released (arguably op) and when Hots was released, so people picked terran not only because they liked the micro intensity but also because it was strong, so yeah, its frustrating when your strong race is nerfed continuosly until its weak.
But then people start to whine, cry, say other races take no skill, and blame all their losses on balance. Its annoying, specially after the recent patches adressing the issue, i was expecting that terrans would calm down and at least wait before they whine again and claim its not enough, winrates for terran are looking good right now.
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Why is a 1000 line balance whine on the a featured TL front page. (Well written or not)
Where was the 1000 page on BL infestor.
Where was the 1000 page on 111.
Honestly this isn't what i expect from TL. Slightly disappointing.
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On June 30 2014 11:38 Evil_Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 10:03 GoStu wrote:
A+ for grammar and presentation, C+ for tone. While obviously a lot of work went into writing this article and researching relevant games, it comes off a touch whiny. Statements about how some races are A-move and "hands off keyboard would have done the same thing" are the touch of insult that puts non-terran readers back on the defensive. Why soil an otherwise-good article? Yeah I'd echo the sentiment above, this is like a 10K+ word thesis with dozens of footnotes -- if nothing else the author pours his heart and soul into it and I respect that. He supports his yes opinionated arguments with heaps of evidence and I think he makes a lot of good points about terran that reflect a deep understanding of how the game is structured. But there is seriously no need for the combative and hostile tone; it's as if the author is writing as one of the last surviving Terrans at the Alamo. On the other hand, you would never get a 25 page footnoted thesis from someone who wasn't that passionate, so I suppose it goes with the territory. Let's not forget to put things into context. The author writes as if there is a conspiracy by Blizzard to undermine Terran: the reality is that Terran has spent long stretches of SC2, both WoL and HotS, as the most successful race. And when Terran has struggled in 2014, Blizzard has already put out three major patches to buff it.
Lol wait what?? Terran hasn't won a GSL final since early 2012 (IMMvP) in May 2012. And there has only been one Terran in the finals since then (Innovation 2013 Season 1 who lost to Soulkey). So I would be careful when you make very broad, inaccurate generalizations about Terran having "long stretches of success" unless you are talking about 2011, which 2 1/2 years ago seems rather irrelevant.
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EPT
