EPTI really hope people will eventually realize how boring SC2 will get, if Terran is being kept down like it is today.
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
I really hope people will eventually realize how boring SC2 will get, if Terran is being kept down like it is today. | ||
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ConCentrate405
Brazil71 Posts
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Picasso
Korea (South)52 Posts
On June 30 2014 07:16 Faust852 wrote: shhht tank got 0.2 attackspeed, obviousl stronger now Ohh, then tanks should have 2.5 attack speed right? Maybe even 2.0? *facepalm* Do you even understand how large the damage from a single tank shot is? You don't even know your own race well. There's a reason Blizz changed the planned buff from 2.7 to 2.8 - with heavy hitting units like tanks even a slight buff in attack speed results in a huge damage buff, especially with splash. I can't imagine how much you'd qq if colossus or ultra attack speed got buffed by even 0.05. Please at least establish some base level knowledge before you start automatically shitting on people that have issues with this article | ||
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Praxy
United States32 Posts
On June 30 2014 08:21 ConCentrate405 wrote: To anyone calling this article a crappy balance whine that belongs to reddit, please tell us what would you accept as indicative of imbalance. I'm really curious to read what kind of stat or game situation repeated across several months on all levels of play should be presented as an evidence that something is broken. Another warhound maybe. To answer your question... The problem with the article (and most Terran QQ in general) is it complains about Terran being UP by citing games before balance updates... in which Terran where legitimately UP ._. EDIT: For example, it cites the widow mine nerf as reason why blink-stalker play had nothing to do with map pool... despite the fact that widow mine nerf (against protoss) was reverted. In order to argue current balance... there have only been three main tournaments. Terran won two of those (Taejea) and Polt was a runner-up in another. Does that mean the game is currently balanced? Not necessarily. But if that trend continues through July, then the win-ratio between Terran and Protoss will balance itself out. EDIT: Terran was legitimately UP at the start of 2014. For that reason, the tournament win ratios for Terrans this year will NEVER be in Terran's favor unless they start winning every single tournament... which in itself would not be balanced. | ||
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asdfOu
United States2089 Posts
since when did they listen to anything the community says | ||
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Praxy
United States32 Posts
On June 30 2014 08:33 asdfOu wrote: too bad blizzard doesn't care. since when did they listen to anything the community says So they didn't revert the mine nerf or buff hellbats because they realized there was a problem? 0_o | ||
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kingcars
United States13 Posts
On June 30 2014 05:45 cloneThorN wrote: "Illustration with TaeJa vs Snute: reaching lategame, Snute builds the money composition of 30 mutas, a few ultras… and 66 banes, i.e. more banes than TaeJa has Marines. It goes without saying that TaeJa, despite no splitting mistake, fighting offcreep and 60 supply of mutas peacefully snoring nearby, gets absolutely annihilated. Maru suffered a similar fate when Symbol a-moved 77 Banelings to his 70 Marines. At this point, Zerg can almost alt-tab and browse Twitter if he fancies; " Just to pick a few.... EDIT: Especially the 3rd. You can do the exact same shit with terran, even with mech, if you have enough money. It's insulting as hell, and frankly my 6 year old cousing could make a better argument while tired. Ah yes, that pesky Mech. A build that's always winning tournaments, dominating matchups and bringing all sorts of no-name Terrans out of the woodwork and into the spotlight. Oh wait... On June 30 2014 06:52 goofyballer wrote: See? You aren't thinking about this whatsoever. Tanks are stronger now. This is a fact. Their dps is higher than in WoL, they're a little cheaper (in WoL you had to spend 100/100 on siege research, so spread that across the cost of every tank you make to see how much you save now), and they're useful faster (because no siege research). But herp derp people don't make them as much, they must be worse! You do realize that Zerg got these cool things called Swam Hosts and Vipers which hard-counter tanks, right? Oh, and mutas got huge buffs as well. Just because the unit itself is better doesn't make it more viable when you consider the other changes that have been made in the matchup. Talk about not thinking it through. On June 30 2014 07:01 goofyballer wrote: This would be the beginning of a decent argument. But that's not the argument OP made - he literally said "Terran no longer had any form of AoE properly working so their armies were repeatedly wiped out by mass banes regardless of how well splits were performed" which is stupid, untrue balance whining drivel. It's sad that Terrans are praising this. It's sad that you need his statement to be explained. Terran gets punished the most out of all the races for micro mistakes (storm and banelings, which have been well known to turn the tides in games which Terran had been dominating for the first 15+ minutes) and also happens to have the least ability to punish micro mistakes from the other races: nerfed widow mines, siege tanks (which are utterly useless vs P and easily hard countered by Z) and seeker missles which are easily dodged...that is, if they ever happen to see the light of day because the transition takes ages. Tell me that isn't true. On June 30 2014 08:26 Picasso wrote: Ohh, then tanks should have 2.5 attack speed right? Maybe even 2.0? *facepalm* Do you even understand how large the damage from a single tank shot is? You don't even know your own race well. There's a reason Blizz changed the planned buff from 2.7 to 2.8 - with heavy hitting units like tanks even a slight buff in attack speed results in a huge damage buff, especially with splash. Right, just like how Blizzard was so cautious when buffing the Oracle. | ||
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Praxy
United States32 Posts
On June 30 2014 08:35 kingcars wrote: Ah yes, that pesky Mech. A build that's always winning tournaments, dominating matchups and bringing all sorts of Terrans out of the woodwork and into the spotlight. Oh wait... You do realize that Zerg got these cool things called Swam Hosts and Vipers which hard-counter tanks, right? Oh, and mutas got huge buffs as well. Just because the unit itself is better doesn't make it more viable when you consider the other changes that have been made in the matchup. Talk about not thinking it through. It's sad that you need his statement to be explained. Terran gets punished the most out of all the races for micro mistakes (storm and banelings, which have been well known to turn the tides in games which Terran had been dominating for the first 15+ minutes) and also happens to have the least ability to punish micro mistakes from the other races: nerfed widow mines, siege tanks (which are utterly useless vs P and easily hard countered by Z) and seeker missles which are easily dodged...that is, if they ever happen to see the light of day because the transition takes ages. Tell me that isn't true. Right, just like how Blizzard was so cautious when buffing the Oracle. Sure. But you can also argue that Terran gets rewarded the most out of all the races for perfect micro. See Heart's game. No other race would have been able to pull that off (coming back from only 7-8 workers after an all in). Note: That game was awesome and Heart deserved to win. Just pointing out that different races are different. Just because Terran are punished more for poor micro doesn't make the game "imbalanced". They can also do things with micro/gameplay that no other race can do (which IMO is good for the game) | ||
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fromhearttosun
Russian Federation5 Posts
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Praxy
United States32 Posts
On June 30 2014 08:38 fromhearttosun wrote: Great article. DK should read it twice each night, before he wouldn't fix the game. Why do people say DK won't fix the game when widow-mine nerf vs protoss was reverted, hellbats buffed, and map pool changed? | ||
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On June 29 2014 20:53 Superouman wrote: The age of GomTvT is long past.  when you go back in time with your current knowledge, you would think how that could ever happen (those several TvT finals): T wasn't that OP that days, it was figured out from the terran POV, while the opponents didn't figure it out yet: you see it so often, that banelings are focused into tanks etc Such huge mistakes costed Zergs and Protosses many games, while the Terrans abused what they had. Like several guys pointed out: if the game was left in that state back then, balance would have switched as well, cause players would have found ways around mechanics. Nerfing one race into oblivion didn't really help. Bigger Macro Maps alone did that for Zerg and do that today for Storm+Colossi deathballs. So it didn't really need all(some were needed indeed) balance changes, or even the addon the meta would have balanced some things. Although since I play random there I completely agree with the OP: the difference between what you have to do for the win (mechanical whise, e.g. Micro and Multitask etc) between Terran and Toss/Zerg, especially in battles, is huge. | ||
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
But my mind says that if I'm going to invest so much more time and effort I'd be better off switching to Protoss. It's a lot easier to a-move Colossi/Chargelots/Archons than it is to try and target and kite while your army gets melted by lasers. I think the only Protoss I've ever looked up to the entire time that I've been interested in SC2, which was from the beginning, was Dear during 2013 S3 GSL and Season Finals. When he was playing that way, it was inspiring and I think I should have just switched then. That style of Protoss was so perfect in that he was like Terran as far as multitask and battle technique; unlike Terran his army would build and actually become stronger and more stable with tech, whereas currently Terran really only scale well with upgrades in the TvP matchup. | ||
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On June 30 2014 08:39 Praxy wrote: Why do people say DK won't fix the game when widow-mine nerf vs protoss was reverted, hellbats buffed, and map pool changed? because it still doesn't fix some key issues: that one race is more forgiving, safer from start to finish to go into macro game or early allin (always safer, no matter what), warping in in the opponents face or if opponent isn't watching for 1 sec T loses whole army and takes much longer to rebuild... | ||
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Praxy
United States32 Posts
On June 30 2014 08:42 Rollora wrote: when you go back in time with your current knowledge, you would think how that could ever happen (those several TvT finals): T wasn't that OP that days, it was figured out from the terran POV, while the opponents didn't figure it out yet: you see it so often, that banelings are focused into tanks etc Such huge mistakes costed Zergs and Protosses many games, while the Terrans abused what they had. Like several guys pointed out: if the game was left in that state back then, balance would have switched as well, cause players would have found ways around mechanics. Nerfing one race into oblivion didn't really help. Bigger Macro Maps alone did that for Zerg and do that today for Storm+Colossi deathballs. So it didn't really need all(some were needed indeed) balance changes, or even the addon the meta would have balanced some things. Although since I play random there I completely agree with the OP: the difference between what you have to do for the win (mechanical whise, e.g. Micro and Multitask etc) between Terran and Toss/Zerg, especially in battles, is huge. By that logic... if they left the game the way it is now, balance rates would balance out as well? PS: Most Terrans (and this post in general highlights it) have always had a double standards when it comes to balancing the games. And its frustrating to say the least. You can't really have a productive balance discusion when one person is saying an imbalanced trait is ok for one race, but not ok for another. | ||
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Praxy
United States32 Posts
On June 30 2014 08:44 Rollora wrote: because it still doesn't fix some key issues: that one race is more forgiving, safer from start to finish to go into macro game or early allin (always safer, no matter what), warping in in the opponents face or if opponent isn't watching for 1 sec T loses whole army and takes much longer to rebuild... That's the way it was in WoL... except the roles where switched. And most Terrans (see above) argue to the death that it was balanced ._. Not saying that the above is good for the game... but just because one race is more forgiving does not mean the game is unbalanced. When people discuss the above, they are not talking about balance but rather the design/feel of the entire game. | ||
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kingcars
United States13 Posts
On June 30 2014 08:38 Praxy wrote: Sure. But you can also argue that Terran gets rewarded the most out of all the races for perfect micro. See Heart's game. No other race would have been able to pull that off (coming back from only 7-8 workers after an all in). Note: That game was awesome and Heart deserved to win. Just pointing out that different races are different. Just because Terran are punished more for poor micro doesn't make the game "imbalanced". They can also do things with micro/gameplay that no other race can do (which IMO is good for the game) While I somewhat agree, there's simply too large of a discrepancy between how much Terran can GET punished and how much they CAN punish in return. One of the best parts of early HoTS was, after the brutal a-move BL/Infestor era (which Blizzard just sat back and let happen for 10 months), FINALLY seeing zergs have to micro. The few that learned early on, like Startale Life, did just fine while the patchzergs faded away. The other annoying part is how quickly Blizzard has nerfed Terran issues like the Hellbat while they just let BL/Infestor reign supreme and now they're doing the same with Protoss. The Hellbat was an issue, no doubt, but nowhere near as much as the other two that they have taken a "lets not change anything" approach with. Very infuriating. | ||
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[Azn]Nada
United States275 Posts
On June 30 2014 08:43 Lunareste wrote: This article simultaneously really makes my heart want to play the game and improve as Terran, and do crazy multitask and out think and outplay my opponents. But my mind says that if I'm going to invest so much more time and effort I'd be better off switching to Protoss. It's a lot easier to a-move Colossi/Chargelots/Archons than it is to try and target and kite while your army gets melted by lasers. I think the only Protoss I've ever looked up to the entire time that I've been interested in SC2, which was from the beginning, was Dear during 2013 S3 GSL and Season Finals. When he was playing that way, it was inspiring and I think I should have just switched then. That style of Protoss was so perfect in that he was like Terran as far as multitask and battle technique; unlike Terran his army would build and actually become stronger and more stable with tech, whereas currently Terran really only scale well with upgrades in the TvP matchup. YES LUNARESTE. Listen to your tired fingers! Stop thinking youll get anywhere microing your goddamn bio in circles, at the end of the day, A-Move is the way to go. I'm going off to med school, your non-arthritic fingers will thank you in 10 years. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
If there is big one takeaway from this article, it should be that Blizzard can't balance or manage SC2. And we've known that since... well long before Slag Pits was released, maybe around the time it took only 2 Bunkers to wall off a ramp. I just wish the TL writers would directly write an article about that. This passive-aggressive stuff, this article and "Pro Responses" to Blizzard patches is non-sense. If you think there is a problem, come out and say it. And when you do that, make sure you address it to management, which in this case, is Blizzard Entertainment. | ||
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Picasso
Korea (South)52 Posts
On June 30 2014 08:35 kingcars wrote: Right, just like how Blizzard was so cautious when buffing the Oracle. Oh, so if one patch is done a bit carelessly all the other patches following should be done carelessly for fairness' sake, right? AND if you still suffer from oracles badly, that's entirely on you. Initially I was the one advocating the oracle speed rollback as it gave me headaches in PvP. But now? With the same builds with which I lost to pre-patch oracle all-ins, now I win against post-patch oracle all-ins. I try using oracles in PvT but they never do damage because no terran is ever unprepared for it these days, as tweaks in builds allowed for Terrans to have enough preparation to establish a safe mineral line. Before the patch, casting revelation on an opponent's army meant sacrificing the oracle because it wasn't fast nor tanky enough to escape. If you're gonna bring up a whine about a unit, be prepared to thoroughly defend yourself. And because Terran players always love to undermine any non-Terran player's skills, let's look at the latest GSL. Maru is currently rank 1 GM in Korea. He has something like ~70% vs P win ratio in the KR GM LADDER, and his TvP is his best matchup. Obviously he's been faring well against the best protosses the world has to offer. But he lost to Classic 4:2. Think that says anything about how good of a player Classic is? Oh nvm, I forgot that all Classic had to do was 1A, my bad guys. Terran players are asking for hate when their QQ on Twitch chat knows no limit and no Terran player would ever praise a Protoss or Zerg player's skill. "soO could've lifted his hands off the keyboard and nothing would've changed" seriously? I don't care if I get a warning for this, thedwf who the fuck do you think you are dismissing and undermining the world's best Zerg's gameplay? User was warned for this post | ||
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kingcars
United States13 Posts
On June 30 2014 08:52 Picasso wrote: Oh, so if one patch is done a bit carelessly all the other patches following should be done carelessly for fairness' sake, right? The issue is that the buff came out of nowhere. I cannot recall any games where people thought "Wow the Oracle is so underpowered...needs buff." So they'll pull that buff out of left field and completely overdo it, but when buffing something that has needed a buff for AGES, they tone it down to 0.1 increments to be "cautious." As for the other stuff you said...I guess you didn't see the part of the article asking "Heads or Tails?" | ||
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