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On June 30 2014 08:42 Rollora wrote:when you go back in time with your current knowledge, you would think how that could ever happen (those several TvT finals): T wasn't that OP that days, it was figured out from the terran POV, while the opponents didn't figure it out yet: you see it so often, that banelings are focused into tanks etc Such huge mistakes costed Zergs and Protosses many games, while the Terrans abused what they had. Like several guys pointed out: if the game was left in that state back then, balance would have switched as well, cause players would have found ways around mechanics. Nerfing one race into oblivion didn't really help. Bigger Macro Maps alone did that for Zerg and do that today for Storm+Colossi deathballs. So it didn't really need all(some were needed indeed) balance changes, or even the addon the meta would have balanced some things. Although since I play random there I completely agree with the OP: the difference between what you have to do for the win (mechanical whise, e.g. Micro and Multitask etc) between Terran and Toss/Zerg, especially in battles, is huge.
Wait, you think Terrans won early in Wings because they figured things out faster? We're talking about the same Terrans who for over a year insisted that 24 damage blue-flame Hellions were completely useless and would never be used?
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Wow, great read TheDwf. I actually read the whole thing and there is no doubt you put a HUGE amount of work into this. I think you have some really good points.
Edit: On another note, I think Blizzard gets too much heat sometimes. They really are doing an incredible job with an incredible game. No, it's not perfect and mistakes have been made but I laugh if people think they could do a better job of creating and running a game.
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Wow what a read...incredible article
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Well this is what happens when a developer balance a game more for entertainment sake than balance sake. I hear more of Blizzard saying "this is not interesting to watch we want to balance change stuff" Like there was nothing wrong with muta v muta....it provided classic skill BW style of play, just because a handful of people disliked watching that style Blizzard nerfs it
now its roach vs roach cuz that is so much better. "Oracle is not used enough late game lets make it go faster so it is more interesting" Balancing and patching around crap like that is what bothers me in HOTS compared to Brood war where they pretty much left things alone and let players figure stuff out.
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I hope they change something bofore LotV...
TvZ depends mostly on the map, imo.
But TvP is still a ridiculous broken matchup...
On November 13 2013 03:16 helius788 wrote:
Hmm, as a Terran player I now know I'm done here.
TvP was already so fcking painful to play (1 millions ways of Allins are possible and an incredible hard late game).
And now even TvZ is just ridiculous.
Maybe if only 20% of Terrans are left playing this game, they start to think about buffing the ghost and nerfing the MSC or something...
So sad!
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For the good of humankind, number of players, not amount of players. Thanks for writing this article.
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Like the good old Lings of Liberty thread, so much entertainment value :D
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This post is so accurate it is scary…the mechanics of protoss (i.e. being able to warp in means don't need to worry about position of units, pylons around map are easy access, forcefields can basically decide a game, late game aoe, etc) makes them less apm intensive.
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On June 30 2014 08:52 Picasso wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 08:35 kingcars wrote:
Right, just like how Blizzard was so cautious when buffing the Oracle. Oh, so if one patch is done a bit carelessly all the other patches following should be done carelessly for fairness' sake, right? AND if you still suffer from oracles badly, that's entirely on you. Initially I was the one advocating the oracle speed rollback as it gave me headaches in PvP. But now? With the same builds with which I lost to pre-patch oracle all-ins, now I win against post-patch oracle all-ins. I try using oracles in PvT but they never do damage because no terran is ever unprepared for it these days, as tweaks in builds allowed for Terrans to have enough preparation to establish a safe mineral line. Before the patch, casting revelation on an opponent's army meant sacrificing the oracle because it wasn't fast nor tanky enough to escape. If you're gonna bring up a whine about a unit, be prepared to thoroughly defend yourself. And because Terran players always love to undermine any non-Terran player's skills, let's look at the latest GSL. Maru is currently rank 1 GM in Korea. He has something like ~70% vs P win ratio in the KR GM LADDER, and his TvP is his best matchup. Obviously he's been faring well against the best protosses the world has to offer. But he lost to Classic 4:2. Think that says anything about how good of a player Classic is? Oh nvm, I forgot that all Classic had to do was 1A, my bad guys. Terran players are asking for hate when their QQ on Twitch chat knows no limit and no Terran player would ever praise a Protoss or Zerg player's skill. "soO could've lifted his hands off the keyboard and nothing would've changed" seriously? I don't care if I get a warning for this, thedwf who the fuck do you think you are dismissing and undermining the world's best Zerg's gameplay?
This, i coudn't agree more.
Im sorry to say that to all those ego inflated people that think they lose because they picked the weak race, you just lack skill. The winrates are not even that bad, and terran was buffed recently. Protoss was nerfed. And people come here and claim nothing was done about it.
Right now winrates are favoured for terran in TvP, and protoss has the overall lowest winrate (check aligulac), the skilled terrans are doing fine.
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The protoss micro is so much less than a terrans in pvt. Terran needs to split, stutter step, emp hts, focus colossi with viking, and macro…toss needs to a move and t click for storms….
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On June 30 2014 06:19 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 06:03 sc2isnotdying wrote:On June 30 2014 05:14 tjtombo wrote:
It's sad how many people dismiss the article as bad and toxic without offering any counter-argument The article is bad and toxic because it's several thousand words of balance whine. Balance whine is bad and toxic. Look, if you follow professional Starcraft it's plainly obvious that Terran is underrepresented at the highest levels. Blizzard knows this and they're going to try to fix it with a new map pool next season. That's like a week away. But let's balance whine in the meantime. Why not? It's pretty disingenuous to write the article off as "balance whine". It clearly has articulate reasoning backed by evidence.
Articulate reasoning and evidence doesn't preclude the article from being balance whine. It's balance whine because the thesis of the article is "Doesn't it suck that Terran is underpowered?" The OP was complaining about balance issues that Blizzard has both acknowledged and is doing something about in the very near future. I don't care how well reasoned his points are, this wasn't some sort of shocking expose on Blizzard's plot to keep Terran down. It's just whining.
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On June 30 2014 09:22 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 08:52 Picasso wrote:On June 30 2014 08:35 kingcars wrote:
Right, just like how Blizzard was so cautious when buffing the Oracle. Oh, so if one patch is done a bit carelessly all the other patches following should be done carelessly for fairness' sake, right? AND if you still suffer from oracles badly, that's entirely on you. Initially I was the one advocating the oracle speed rollback as it gave me headaches in PvP. But now? With the same builds with which I lost to pre-patch oracle all-ins, now I win against post-patch oracle all-ins. I try using oracles in PvT but they never do damage because no terran is ever unprepared for it these days, as tweaks in builds allowed for Terrans to have enough preparation to establish a safe mineral line. Before the patch, casting revelation on an opponent's army meant sacrificing the oracle because it wasn't fast nor tanky enough to escape. If you're gonna bring up a whine about a unit, be prepared to thoroughly defend yourself. And because Terran players always love to undermine any non-Terran player's skills, let's look at the latest GSL. Maru is currently rank 1 GM in Korea. He has something like ~70% vs P win ratio in the KR GM LADDER, and his TvP is his best matchup. Obviously he's been faring well against the best protosses the world has to offer. But he lost to Classic 4:2. Think that says anything about how good of a player Classic is? Oh nvm, I forgot that all Classic had to do was 1A, my bad guys. Terran players are asking for hate when their QQ on Twitch chat knows no limit and no Terran player would ever praise a Protoss or Zerg player's skill. "soO could've lifted his hands off the keyboard and nothing would've changed" seriously? I don't care if I get a warning for this, thedwf who the fuck do you think you are dismissing and undermining the world's best Zerg's gameplay? This, i coudn't agree more. Im sorry to say that to all those ego inflated people that think they lose because they picked the weak race, you just lack skill. The winrates are not even that bad, and terran was buffed recently. Protoss was nerfed. And people come here and claim nothing was done about it. Right now winrates are favoured for terran in TvP, and protoss has the overall lowest winrate (check aligulac), the skilled terrans are doing fine.
Using one terran player to indicate balance for the entire race is...you can finish that sentence yourself.
How do you know who Maru is on the KR ladder anyway? It's all barcodes and the #1 terran on the ladder has a 62% win rate, not 70. (Impressive nonetheless)
Also, if you want to use the KR ladder for data for this argument, you'll find T being the least represented.
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This may have been posted before, but it looks like Blizzard is going to wait and see:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/13273137416?page=2
"While we have no immediate plans for another balance test map, we've seen the ongoing discussion on Terran/Zerg/Protoss performance and we'll continue monitor and discuss these topics. The most recent balance update was a little over four weeks ago, and we feel that the effects of this update are still being explored. Additionally, with Season 3 starting soon we'll be introducing several new maps. As stated in your post, maps are linked to game balance, so it makes sense for us to wait and see how the new maps affect the match-ups."
Props to Blizzard for having some sense. It doesn't happen always. But, this is one of those times.
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Good post mate, not done reading it yet but the amount of work you put into this is insane.
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On June 30 2014 09:37 aZealot wrote:This may have been posted before, but it looks like Blizzard is going to wait and see: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/13273137416?page=2"While we have no immediate plans for another balance test map, we've seen the ongoing discussion on Terran/Zerg/Protoss performance and we'll continue monitor and discuss these topics. The most recent balance update was a little over four weeks ago, and we feel that the effects of this update are still being explored. Additionally, with Season 3 starting soon we'll be introducing several new maps. As stated in your post, maps are linked to game balance, so it makes sense for us to wait and see how the new maps affect the match-ups." Props to Blizzard for having some sense. It doesn't happen always. But, this is one of those times.
They often sound like they are making sense, but then when it comes time to actually make a change, they blow it...
All we can do is wait and hope.
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On June 30 2014 09:32 Kokujin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 09:22 Superbanana wrote:On June 30 2014 08:52 Picasso wrote:On June 30 2014 08:35 kingcars wrote:
Right, just like how Blizzard was so cautious when buffing the Oracle. Oh, so if one patch is done a bit carelessly all the other patches following should be done carelessly for fairness' sake, right? AND if you still suffer from oracles badly, that's entirely on you. Initially I was the one advocating the oracle speed rollback as it gave me headaches in PvP. But now? With the same builds with which I lost to pre-patch oracle all-ins, now I win against post-patch oracle all-ins. I try using oracles in PvT but they never do damage because no terran is ever unprepared for it these days, as tweaks in builds allowed for Terrans to have enough preparation to establish a safe mineral line. Before the patch, casting revelation on an opponent's army meant sacrificing the oracle because it wasn't fast nor tanky enough to escape. If you're gonna bring up a whine about a unit, be prepared to thoroughly defend yourself. And because Terran players always love to undermine any non-Terran player's skills, let's look at the latest GSL. Maru is currently rank 1 GM in Korea. He has something like ~70% vs P win ratio in the KR GM LADDER, and his TvP is his best matchup. Obviously he's been faring well against the best protosses the world has to offer. But he lost to Classic 4:2. Think that says anything about how good of a player Classic is? Oh nvm, I forgot that all Classic had to do was 1A, my bad guys. Terran players are asking for hate when their QQ on Twitch chat knows no limit and no Terran player would ever praise a Protoss or Zerg player's skill. "soO could've lifted his hands off the keyboard and nothing would've changed" seriously? I don't care if I get a warning for this, thedwf who the fuck do you think you are dismissing and undermining the world's best Zerg's gameplay? This, i coudn't agree more. Im sorry to say that to all those ego inflated people that think they lose because they picked the weak race, you just lack skill. The winrates are not even that bad, and terran was buffed recently. Protoss was nerfed. And people come here and claim nothing was done about it. Right now winrates are favoured for terran in TvP, and protoss has the overall lowest winrate (check aligulac), the skilled terrans are doing fine. Using one terran player to indicate balance for the entire race is...you can finish that sentence yourself. How do you know who Maru is on the KR ladder anyway? It's all barcodes and the #1 terran on the ladder has a 62% win rate, not 70. (Impressive nonetheless) Also, if you want to use the KR ladder for data for this argument, you'll find T being the least represented.
Picasso was using an example, he was not using one player to indicate balance for the entire race. His point was that its wrong to assume protoss require no skill when the skill gap between top protoss is as big as with any other race. So he used Maru and Classic to illustrate that. eh... reply to the right post.
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I'm normally just lurking, but I gotta say: HUGE props to TheDwf for such a fantastic piece. Ignore everyone dismissing it as 'balance whine' or hating on tone.
The attention to your arguments, the structure of the article, embedded/linked examples and sourcing puts this, in my opinion, on par with a lot of professional-grade journalism. Articles like these are a huge reason why TL.net is such a wonderful place to visit :D
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What a surprise, somebody made a big ass thread so the seemingly oblivious protoss and zerg players were able to understand they are playing a different game without banging a brick on their ego
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Interesting article. Here are my thoughts about the consistency of this article. I could talk about specific points but it's way too long and very subjective.
- I wish Downfall had written a small recap of what his suggestions for the balance are . It is really easy and it looks cool to criticize the balance team development, yet what to do ? I said recap because he made some suggestions like hellbat attack buff (20). Yet the whole picture of his thought process would be better. If you do a balance post, go all the way.
- There is a strong logical contradiction. At the beginning,
"Terran was OP in early HotS but the flow of time and metagame would have rebalanced thinks with Z and P adapting. Too many changes has been made too quickly."
At the end :
"the balance team need to do something and quickly".
Yet the hellbat change is very new, the msc nerf / ghost buff / mine vs toss buff are not that old.
- Some facts are heaily exaggerated. Even if it's stylistic, I think it's an issue, because it overshadows other great points he made which are absolutely valid.
So... in the end, mixed feelings I guess.
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On June 29 2014 22:14 Nine Gates wrote:
Here's the problem with this article:
In the beginning, the premise is that the game was balanced early-mid 2013. Hellbat and Widow Mine nerfs were unnecessary or at least too much; with no nerfs or only a small Hellbat nerf, the game would have naturally balanced. Statistics support this. Statistics also support that the nerfs directly caused the drop in Terran success.
But then, the article goes on to rant about Roaches, 3 hatch, Larva, MSC, Tempests, harass & static defense, Storms, Colossi, Warp Prism, Protoss all-ins and PvT control requirements.
So, if you were to restore Hellbats and Widow Mines into their previous strength, and the proceed to nerf everything mentioned in the latter half of the article, wouldn't Terran utterly dominate? And if the article isn't suggesting that those need to be nerfed, then what is the point in mentioning them? If the premise of the article was that the game was balanced in early-mid 2013 and that Protosses and Zergs were wrong to whine about Hellbats and 4M, why does the writer get to whine about everything Protoss and Zerg?
I think the strenghts of the marked complaints are a direct result of the ballance changes he spoke of. Because normally terran would have had more options to harrass or to even get some early game pressure (esp. in TvP, since early pressure is basically dead currently)
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EPT
