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Shocker that the same guys who love this article are the same guys who whine on ladder about 1a zerg armies without ever noticing that there's a reason why good players don't detonate banes on marauders
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On June 30 2014 06:52 goofyballer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 06:44 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 06:39 goofyballer wrote:On June 30 2014 06:17 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 06:00 goofyballer wrote:On June 30 2014 05:24 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 05:22 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:17 Zealously wrote:On June 30 2014 05:03 ZAiNs wrote:On June 30 2014 05:02 goofyballer wrote:
How is it that a site which usually moderates balance whining pretty heavily could allow an article to be published that spends thousands of words crying about how unfair Blizzard is to one race? Apparently it's all fine if you say "Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than TheDwf)." No, it's "all fine" if you put weeks of work into your post and back your claims up by several dozen examples and considerable expertise. So if IdrA/Avilo/CombatEX put weeks worth of effort to make a post, and back their claims up with statistics and example they themself picked, then it would be ok too, to make a balance thread? Because i'm pretty sure, that each of those players could make an article similar to this, and make it so that their race looked weaker. I bet you 10$ you won't find half the content to proove a point in favor of P or Z underpowered as DwF did for T. There is so much replays/vod/other exemple it's enough to provide a point imho. Ten dollars? Oh wow, what great inspiration to spend hours and hours of my time writing thousands of words of balance whine, to be able to purchase ten junior bacon cheeseburgers when I'm done. You must be a professional Terran player to be this broke. I could say one thousand it wouldn't change anything since I'm 100% sure there is not enough content to make a counter article this detailed. It would be very easy to make such a counter article if I was allowed to make up bullshit at the rate the OP has done so. Let's look at this, for example: On June 29 2014 19:48 TheDwf wrote:
Yet was Terran struggling on Whirlwind at the beginning of HotS? Is it because of the new maps Terran no longer had any form of AoE properly working so their armies were repeatedly wiped out by mass banes regardless of how well splits were performed? OP is basically making the argument that MMMM - with post-nerf widow mines - is worse than MMM from WoL. How often did you see the best Terrans in Wings of Liberty cry about mass baneling and how powerless they were to do anything about it? And Blizzard, in HotS, gives them even better tools to deal with banelings: - siege tanks buffed, multiple times - no siege mode research, faster fire rate - widow mines added to give Terrans another form of splash against lings, banes, mutas, way cheaper and more mobile than tanks Terran's ability to deal with mass bane is indisputably much better now than it was in WoL. They have more and better tools at their disposal to do splash damage to clumps of banes, while banelings were not buffed at all. And OP writes an article crying about it because one of those tools is slightly worse than it was at an earlier point in time, because if one mine can't kill 20 banelings then how is Terran supposed to ever win??? And of course, Faust852 eats it all up, accepting all of it uncritically despite total bullshit passages like the above that are dismantled by even the most rudimentary application of logic. It's utterly hilarious that OP craps on Parting by posting that Youtube clip where he says "super imba" to Flash before leaving, referring to him overreacting to the novelty of speed medivacs, while refusing to apply that same logic to his own balance whining about strategies that Terran should be having an easier time dealing with now than in WoL. But apparently, post-nerf widow mines have made Terran a worse race against banelings than they were in WoL, even though Terran could always elect to just not make them if they're so awful. Please if you think tanks are stronger now. Give me a reason why you NEVER see them ?Baneling weren't a problem in WoL because there weren't mass baneling at all since Infestors was kinda much stronger yaknow. See? You aren't thinking about this whatsoever. Tanks are stronger now. This is a fact. Their dps is higher than in WoL, they're a little cheaper (in WoL you had to spend 100/100 on siege research, so spread that across the cost of every tank you make to see how much you save now), and they're useful faster (because no siege research). But herp derp people don't make them as much, they must be worse! They're not worse, Terrans make widow mines instead because widow mines are still a really good unit, despite what the OP apparently thinks about them. Again, if widow mines are so bad, stop making them! Make tanks! Why is the OP crying to Blizzard about the failure of his own race to utilize good unit compositions?
The only one who isn't thinking here is you. Tanks don't exist in a vacuum, comparing them 1:1 without taking into account the rest of the game makes no sense.
Tanks not requiring siege research and shooting slightly faster in siege mode doesn't mean anything in a world where the mutas are faster and have insane health regen.
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On June 30 2014 07:06 goofyballer wrote:
Shocker that the same guys who love this article are the same guys who whine on ladder about 1a zerg armies without ever noticing that there's a reason why good players don't detonate banes on marauders
This line is terribly written and draws conclusions on no facts and ends with a claim on something nobody is discussing. Go back to reddit plz.
Oh. Just noticed the nick.
Apparantly, you can't win the argument you started so you start pulling random crap out of nowhere?
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Everyone does realize this is an editorial not a news article right?
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On June 30 2014 07:07 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 06:52 goofyballer wrote:On June 30 2014 06:44 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 06:39 goofyballer wrote:On June 30 2014 06:17 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 06:00 goofyballer wrote:On June 30 2014 05:24 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 05:22 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:17 Zealously wrote:On June 30 2014 05:03 ZAiNs wrote:
[quote]
Apparently it's all fine if you say "Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than TheDwf)." No, it's "all fine" if you put weeks of work into your post and back your claims up by several dozen examples and considerable expertise. So if IdrA/Avilo/CombatEX put weeks worth of effort to make a post, and back their claims up with statistics and example they themself picked, then it would be ok too, to make a balance thread? Because i'm pretty sure, that each of those players could make an article similar to this, and make it so that their race looked weaker. I bet you 10$ you won't find half the content to proove a point in favor of P or Z underpowered as DwF did for T. There is so much replays/vod/other exemple it's enough to provide a point imho. Ten dollars? Oh wow, what great inspiration to spend hours and hours of my time writing thousands of words of balance whine, to be able to purchase ten junior bacon cheeseburgers when I'm done. You must be a professional Terran player to be this broke. I could say one thousand it wouldn't change anything since I'm 100% sure there is not enough content to make a counter article this detailed. It would be very easy to make such a counter article if I was allowed to make up bullshit at the rate the OP has done so. Let's look at this, for example: On June 29 2014 19:48 TheDwf wrote:
Yet was Terran struggling on Whirlwind at the beginning of HotS? Is it because of the new maps Terran no longer had any form of AoE properly working so their armies were repeatedly wiped out by mass banes regardless of how well splits were performed? OP is basically making the argument that MMMM - with post-nerf widow mines - is worse than MMM from WoL. How often did you see the best Terrans in Wings of Liberty cry about mass baneling and how powerless they were to do anything about it? And Blizzard, in HotS, gives them even better tools to deal with banelings: - siege tanks buffed, multiple times - no siege mode research, faster fire rate - widow mines added to give Terrans another form of splash against lings, banes, mutas, way cheaper and more mobile than tanks Terran's ability to deal with mass bane is indisputably much better now than it was in WoL. They have more and better tools at their disposal to do splash damage to clumps of banes, while banelings were not buffed at all. And OP writes an article crying about it because one of those tools is slightly worse than it was at an earlier point in time, because if one mine can't kill 20 banelings then how is Terran supposed to ever win??? And of course, Faust852 eats it all up, accepting all of it uncritically despite total bullshit passages like the above that are dismantled by even the most rudimentary application of logic. It's utterly hilarious that OP craps on Parting by posting that Youtube clip where he says "super imba" to Flash before leaving, referring to him overreacting to the novelty of speed medivacs, while refusing to apply that same logic to his own balance whining about strategies that Terran should be having an easier time dealing with now than in WoL. But apparently, post-nerf widow mines have made Terran a worse race against banelings than they were in WoL, even though Terran could always elect to just not make them if they're so awful. Please if you think tanks are stronger now. Give me a reason why you NEVER see them ?Baneling weren't a problem in WoL because there weren't mass baneling at all since Infestors was kinda much stronger yaknow. See? You aren't thinking about this whatsoever. Tanks are stronger now. This is a fact. Their dps is higher than in WoL, they're a little cheaper (in WoL you had to spend 100/100 on siege research, so spread that across the cost of every tank you make to see how much you save now), and they're useful faster (because no siege research). But herp derp people don't make them as much, they must be worse! They're not worse, Terrans make widow mines instead because widow mines are still a really good unit, despite what the OP apparently thinks about them. Again, if widow mines are so bad, stop making them! Make tanks! Why is the OP crying to Blizzard about the failure of his own race to utilize good unit compositions? The only one who isn't thinking here is you. Tanks don't exist in a vacuum, comparing them 1:1 without taking into account the rest of the game makes no sense. Tanks not requiring siege research and shooting slightly faster in siege mode doesn't mean anything in a world where the mutas are faster and have insane health regen.
Not to mention vipers. I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned yet. I think even with the buffed mutas you still may occasionally see marine tank, if abduct and blinding cloud didn't neuter tanks.
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On June 30 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 07:06 goofyballer wrote:
Shocker that the same guys who love this article are the same guys who whine on ladder about 1a zerg armies without ever noticing that there's a reason why good players don't detonate banes on marauders This line is terribly written and draws conclusions on no facts and ends with a claim on something nobody is discussing. Go back to reddit plz. Oh. Just noticed the nick. Apparantly, you can't win the argument you started so you start pulling random crap out of nowhere?
lol, random? You clearly know what I'm talking about, you responded to this post:
On June 30 2014 07:04 eightym wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:45 cloneThorN wrote:
You can do the exact same shit with terran, even with mech, if you have enough money. It's insulting as hell, and frankly my 6 year old cousing could make a better argument while tired. You actually have to micro each mech unit to use it effectively. It's what makes mech mech. A moving is never an option. You must seige the tanks... transform the hellbats, burrow the mines, transform thors... What do you micro with ultras? LOL, please... PLEASE!
1A ZERG ARMIES!!!!
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On June 30 2014 07:12 goofyballer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 07:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On June 30 2014 07:06 goofyballer wrote:
Shocker that the same guys who love this article are the same guys who whine on ladder about 1a zerg armies without ever noticing that there's a reason why good players don't detonate banes on marauders This line is terribly written and draws conclusions on no facts and ends with a claim on something nobody is discussing. Go back to reddit plz. Oh. Just noticed the nick. Apparantly, you can't win the argument you started so you start pulling random crap out of nowhere? lol, random? You clearly know what I'm talking about, you responded to this post: Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 07:04 eightym wrote:On June 30 2014 05:45 cloneThorN wrote:
You can do the exact same shit with terran, even with mech, if you have enough money. It's insulting as hell, and frankly my 6 year old cousing could make a better argument while tired. You actually have to micro each mech unit to use it effectively. It's what makes mech mech. A moving is never an option. You must seige the tanks... transform the hellbats, burrow the mines, transform thors... What do you micro with ultras? LOL, please... PLEASE! 1A ZERG ARMIES!!!!
What do you micro with ultras?
Dont detonate banelings on marauders!
Yep. Sure. You're a master of rhetorics my friend.
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On June 30 2014 07:06 goofyballer wrote:
Shocker that the same guys who love this article are the same guys who whine on ladder about 1a zerg armies without ever noticing that there's a reason why good players don't detonate banes on marauders
Meanwhile you expect Terrans to split their marines and send the marauders forwrard. Oh and by your past statement, they are also supposed to target fire the banes. Man, good thing I have for mice and 2000 apm. I honestly want to know if you've ever watched terran in FPV, because it seems like you have no idea how the race finctions.
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On June 30 2014 07:11 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 07:07 forsooth wrote:On June 30 2014 06:52 goofyballer wrote:On June 30 2014 06:44 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 06:39 goofyballer wrote:On June 30 2014 06:17 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 06:00 goofyballer wrote:On June 30 2014 05:24 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 05:22 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:17 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
No, it's "all fine" if you put weeks of work into your post and back your claims up by several dozen examples and considerable expertise. So if IdrA/Avilo/CombatEX put weeks worth of effort to make a post, and back their claims up with statistics and example they themself picked, then it would be ok too, to make a balance thread? Because i'm pretty sure, that each of those players could make an article similar to this, and make it so that their race looked weaker. I bet you 10$ you won't find half the content to proove a point in favor of P or Z underpowered as DwF did for T. There is so much replays/vod/other exemple it's enough to provide a point imho. Ten dollars? Oh wow, what great inspiration to spend hours and hours of my time writing thousands of words of balance whine, to be able to purchase ten junior bacon cheeseburgers when I'm done. You must be a professional Terran player to be this broke. I could say one thousand it wouldn't change anything since I'm 100% sure there is not enough content to make a counter article this detailed. It would be very easy to make such a counter article if I was allowed to make up bullshit at the rate the OP has done so. Let's look at this, for example: On June 29 2014 19:48 TheDwf wrote:
Yet was Terran struggling on Whirlwind at the beginning of HotS? Is it because of the new maps Terran no longer had any form of AoE properly working so their armies were repeatedly wiped out by mass banes regardless of how well splits were performed? OP is basically making the argument that MMMM - with post-nerf widow mines - is worse than MMM from WoL. How often did you see the best Terrans in Wings of Liberty cry about mass baneling and how powerless they were to do anything about it? And Blizzard, in HotS, gives them even better tools to deal with banelings: - siege tanks buffed, multiple times - no siege mode research, faster fire rate - widow mines added to give Terrans another form of splash against lings, banes, mutas, way cheaper and more mobile than tanks Terran's ability to deal with mass bane is indisputably much better now than it was in WoL. They have more and better tools at their disposal to do splash damage to clumps of banes, while banelings were not buffed at all. And OP writes an article crying about it because one of those tools is slightly worse than it was at an earlier point in time, because if one mine can't kill 20 banelings then how is Terran supposed to ever win??? And of course, Faust852 eats it all up, accepting all of it uncritically despite total bullshit passages like the above that are dismantled by even the most rudimentary application of logic. It's utterly hilarious that OP craps on Parting by posting that Youtube clip where he says "super imba" to Flash before leaving, referring to him overreacting to the novelty of speed medivacs, while refusing to apply that same logic to his own balance whining about strategies that Terran should be having an easier time dealing with now than in WoL. But apparently, post-nerf widow mines have made Terran a worse race against banelings than they were in WoL, even though Terran could always elect to just not make them if they're so awful. Please if you think tanks are stronger now. Give me a reason why you NEVER see them ?Baneling weren't a problem in WoL because there weren't mass baneling at all since Infestors was kinda much stronger yaknow. See? You aren't thinking about this whatsoever. Tanks are stronger now. This is a fact. Their dps is higher than in WoL, they're a little cheaper (in WoL you had to spend 100/100 on siege research, so spread that across the cost of every tank you make to see how much you save now), and they're useful faster (because no siege research). But herp derp people don't make them as much, they must be worse! They're not worse, Terrans make widow mines instead because widow mines are still a really good unit, despite what the OP apparently thinks about them. Again, if widow mines are so bad, stop making them! Make tanks! Why is the OP crying to Blizzard about the failure of his own race to utilize good unit compositions? The only one who isn't thinking here is you. Tanks don't exist in a vacuum, comparing them 1:1 without taking into account the rest of the game makes no sense. Tanks not requiring siege research and shooting slightly faster in siege mode doesn't mean anything in a world where the mutas are faster and have insane health regen. Not to mention vipers. I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned yet. I think even with the buffed mutas you still may occasionally see marine tank, if abduct and blinding cloud didn't neuter tanks.
Maps/Muta buffs/Viper/Better Ultra/Swarmhost all affect bio tank some way.
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On June 30 2014 07:13 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 07:06 goofyballer wrote:
Shocker that the same guys who love this article are the same guys who whine on ladder about 1a zerg armies without ever noticing that there's a reason why good players don't detonate banes on marauders Meanwhile you expect Terrans to split their marines and send the marauders forwrard. Oh and by your past statement, they are also supposed to target fire the banes. Man, good thing I have for mice and 2000 apm. I honestly want to know if you've ever watched terran in FPV, because it seems like you have no idea how the race finctions.
No, he doesn't. He's angry that he started an argument and is being proven wrong, so now he diverts the attention.
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On June 30 2014 07:14 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 07:11 royalroadweed wrote:On June 30 2014 07:07 forsooth wrote:On June 30 2014 06:52 goofyballer wrote:On June 30 2014 06:44 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 06:39 goofyballer wrote:On June 30 2014 06:17 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 06:00 goofyballer wrote:On June 30 2014 05:24 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 05:22 cloneThorN wrote:
[quote]
So if IdrA/Avilo/CombatEX put weeks worth of effort to make a post, and back their claims up with statistics and example they themself picked, then it would be ok too, to make a balance thread?
Because i'm pretty sure, that each of those players could make an article similar to this, and make it so that their race looked weaker.
I bet you 10$ you won't find half the content to proove a point in favor of P or Z underpowered as DwF did for T. There is so much replays/vod/other exemple it's enough to provide a point imho. Ten dollars? Oh wow, what great inspiration to spend hours and hours of my time writing thousands of words of balance whine, to be able to purchase ten junior bacon cheeseburgers when I'm done. You must be a professional Terran player to be this broke. I could say one thousand it wouldn't change anything since I'm 100% sure there is not enough content to make a counter article this detailed. It would be very easy to make such a counter article if I was allowed to make up bullshit at the rate the OP has done so. Let's look at this, for example: On June 29 2014 19:48 TheDwf wrote:
Yet was Terran struggling on Whirlwind at the beginning of HotS? Is it because of the new maps Terran no longer had any form of AoE properly working so their armies were repeatedly wiped out by mass banes regardless of how well splits were performed? OP is basically making the argument that MMMM - with post-nerf widow mines - is worse than MMM from WoL. How often did you see the best Terrans in Wings of Liberty cry about mass baneling and how powerless they were to do anything about it? And Blizzard, in HotS, gives them even better tools to deal with banelings: - siege tanks buffed, multiple times - no siege mode research, faster fire rate - widow mines added to give Terrans another form of splash against lings, banes, mutas, way cheaper and more mobile than tanks Terran's ability to deal with mass bane is indisputably much better now than it was in WoL. They have more and better tools at their disposal to do splash damage to clumps of banes, while banelings were not buffed at all. And OP writes an article crying about it because one of those tools is slightly worse than it was at an earlier point in time, because if one mine can't kill 20 banelings then how is Terran supposed to ever win??? And of course, Faust852 eats it all up, accepting all of it uncritically despite total bullshit passages like the above that are dismantled by even the most rudimentary application of logic. It's utterly hilarious that OP craps on Parting by posting that Youtube clip where he says "super imba" to Flash before leaving, referring to him overreacting to the novelty of speed medivacs, while refusing to apply that same logic to his own balance whining about strategies that Terran should be having an easier time dealing with now than in WoL. But apparently, post-nerf widow mines have made Terran a worse race against banelings than they were in WoL, even though Terran could always elect to just not make them if they're so awful. Please if you think tanks are stronger now. Give me a reason why you NEVER see them ?Baneling weren't a problem in WoL because there weren't mass baneling at all since Infestors was kinda much stronger yaknow. See? You aren't thinking about this whatsoever. Tanks are stronger now. This is a fact. Their dps is higher than in WoL, they're a little cheaper (in WoL you had to spend 100/100 on siege research, so spread that across the cost of every tank you make to see how much you save now), and they're useful faster (because no siege research). But herp derp people don't make them as much, they must be worse! They're not worse, Terrans make widow mines instead because widow mines are still a really good unit, despite what the OP apparently thinks about them. Again, if widow mines are so bad, stop making them! Make tanks! Why is the OP crying to Blizzard about the failure of his own race to utilize good unit compositions? The only one who isn't thinking here is you. Tanks don't exist in a vacuum, comparing them 1:1 without taking into account the rest of the game makes no sense. Tanks not requiring siege research and shooting slightly faster in siege mode doesn't mean anything in a world where the mutas are faster and have insane health regen. Not to mention vipers. I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned yet. I think even with the buffed mutas you still may occasionally see marine tank, if abduct and blinding cloud didn't neuter tanks. Maps/Muta buffs/Viper/Better Ultra/Swarmhost all bio tank some way.
shhht tank got 0.2 attackspeed, obviousl stronger now
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On June 30 2014 07:05 Tyrhanius wrote:
Problem of T balance is they was way too strong in the early game. They killed other races in the egg, and that wasn't fun at all.
So this part of their gameplay was nerfed, cause it's not fun for other races to just defend in the early game with low tech units vs high tech units while you can't tech yourself because all your money is used to keep you alive.
The problem is balance patch haven't compensated these nerfed on early game by buff in mid/late game. And HOTS release was the same : broken WH, WM, hellbats that crush Z/P in early game. So they got nerfed, and now T had trouble cause they can't kill/hurt other in the early game.
The problem is T tech way too fast. In my opinion, it could be wise to consider buffing some units but make it longer for T to get them, or make T units evolve (a bit like zerg who can get slow roach, then fast roach, then burrow mouvement roach), like first Generation Tank, Second generation tank, Third generation tank : Then T can get tank early, but they're not too strong and won't crush P/Z at 5minutes, and they're going to be stronger and stronger as they will face stronger and stronger P/Z tech units.
But T doesn't get tech that fast...and we can't chrono boost or mass produce a unit once the tech structure's out.
I like your idea of the 1st-gen tank into 2nd gen tank into 3rd gen tank though. Terran's tier3 units need to be much better. Thors are barely used, BCs NEVER used in any non-mirror matchup unless you want to throw the game, and Ravens are really hard to get en masse.
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On June 30 2014 07:13 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 07:06 goofyballer wrote:
Shocker that the same guys who love this article are the same guys who whine on ladder about 1a zerg armies without ever noticing that there's a reason why good players don't detonate banes on marauders Meanwhile you expect Terrans to split their marines and send the marauders forwrard. Oh and by your past statement, they are also supposed to target fire the banes. Man, good thing I have for mice and 2000 apm. I honestly want to know if you've ever watched terran in FPV, because it seems like you have no idea how the race finctions.
On June 30 2014 07:15 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 07:13 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:On June 30 2014 07:06 goofyballer wrote:
Shocker that the same guys who love this article are the same guys who whine on ladder about 1a zerg armies without ever noticing that there's a reason why good players don't detonate banes on marauders Meanwhile you expect Terrans to split their marines and send the marauders forwrard. Oh and by your past statement, they are also supposed to target fire the banes. Man, good thing I have for mice and 2000 apm. I honestly want to know if you've ever watched terran in FPV, because it seems like you have no idea how the race finctions. No, he doesn't. He's angry that he started an argument and is being proven wrong, so now he diverts the attention.
? I never said anything about the difficulty of Terran micro. Says a lot that you have to put words in my mouth to try to win, Toastie, you master of rhetorics you.
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I always wonder if the balance team ever considers whether previous balance changes are still viable before any new balance changes are "tested" or implemented...
e.g. stim research or rax build time hellbat damage vs. earlier access.
Well it is always a pain to admit that a change went eventually too far or in a wrong direction.
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On June 30 2014 07:17 goofyballer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 07:13 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:On June 30 2014 07:06 goofyballer wrote:
Shocker that the same guys who love this article are the same guys who whine on ladder about 1a zerg armies without ever noticing that there's a reason why good players don't detonate banes on marauders Meanwhile you expect Terrans to split their marines and send the marauders forwrard. Oh and by your past statement, they are also supposed to target fire the banes. Man, good thing I have for mice and 2000 apm. I honestly want to know if you've ever watched terran in FPV, because it seems like you have no idea how the race finctions. Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 07:15 SC2Toastie wrote:On June 30 2014 07:13 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:On June 30 2014 07:06 goofyballer wrote:
Shocker that the same guys who love this article are the same guys who whine on ladder about 1a zerg armies without ever noticing that there's a reason why good players don't detonate banes on marauders Meanwhile you expect Terrans to split their marines and send the marauders forwrard. Oh and by your past statement, they are also supposed to target fire the banes. Man, good thing I have for mice and 2000 apm. I honestly want to know if you've ever watched terran in FPV, because it seems like you have no idea how the race finctions. No, he doesn't. He's angry that he started an argument and is being proven wrong, so now he diverts the attention. ? I never said anything about the difficulty of Terran micro. Says a lot that you have to put words in my mouth to try to win, Toastie, you master of rhetorics you.
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/
You're welcome
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So you're angry that you started an argument and got caught making things up, so you're trying to divert attention? Thanks.
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Here's my huge stonking response. You're welcome.
Most of the article is well thought-out and intelligent. It has convinced me that Terran is probably weaker in the current metagame. Thus far, all is well.
Nevertheless, I have a very basic problem with a large portion of the article, mostly the second half. Allow me to explain.
I've been around the scene a while now. I've read my share of articles and posts complaining about balance with different races. In many of those cases, there was really some kind of problem actually going on. Protoss did lose a lot for a while. Terrans are very underrepresented in tournaments right now. Et cetera.
Nevertheless, at some point, it always begins.
People start complaining about other races. Not just about how they're stronger than them right now. About how the way the other races work is unfair.
Here's the problem. This is how Starcraft works. It is always unfair. Always. Each race has things that are ridiculously strong compared to what the other race has, and things that are ridiculously weak compared to what the other race has. These things do not generally change much, except between expansions.
So, yes, Photon Overcharge is strong. It is hard for Terran to deal with it. This was true six months ago, and it's true now. Simultaneous Medivac drops are hard to fight off. Larvae allow Zerg to rebuild their armies ridiculously fast. Psionic Storm can kill tons of stuff really fast if not microed out of. Marines are ridiculously cost-effective and infinitely microable. These things are all, fundamentally, without question, always and completely unfair.
Nevertheless, these things actually have very little to do with balance. The reason Terran is weak now is not because Protoss has Warp Gate or Colossus or Psionic Storm or because Zerg has larvae or Ultralisks or Mutalisks. The reason Terran is weak right now, as you point out quite well, is because a few tiny things shifted around and changed the way games played out fundamentally. This is how balance works. Everything is always unfair, but the unfairnesses balance each other out so that, generally speaking, really really good players win. At some points, however, various things shift around such that some unfairnesses of one race become more obvious or more easily exploitable or more decisive in a significant portion of games, or the unfairnesses of another race become less obvious or less easily exploitable or less decisive in a significant portion of games. When this happens, we say, colloquially, that things are "unbalanced."
Every race has been in the bad position at one time or other. This also happened a lot in BW as well. I remember two seasons quite vividly, one where PvZ was Protoss dominated, and the other where it was Zerg dominated. In the former, I remember watching games and being amazed by how helpless Zergs looked and how unfair Protoss' advantages seemed; in the latter, the exact opposite was true. Nothing changed in gameplay terms between these two seasons.
And here's my fundamental problem with articles like this. Since beta in SC2, I've read articles and posts complaining about the unfairness of various races. They point to specific unfairnesses. They say these unfairnesses are unfair. Every time I read these articles, I have the same reaction: "Why are you trying to take away my toys?"
Because here's the thing. Unfairness is what makes Starcraft fun, both to play and to watch. I like unfairness. Telling me something is unfair is like music to my ears, like rainbows for my eyes, like popcorn for my soul. If Starcraft wasn't unfair, I sure as heck wouldn't be playing and watching (admittedly mostly the latter) after all this time. The vast majority of unfair things in SC2 are also awesome, cool things. They are things that turn the tide of battles and games. They are things that force your opponent to scramble to try to deal with them. They are the things that make life living and Starcraft worth playing.
Look, I know it's frustrating when you're a competitive player trying to make a living by winning tournaments and then these things happen to you. I understand why Artosis karking hated DT drops in BW. I understand why Arbiters filled Idra with rage. And yes, it really did annoy me when Stork lost to ling runbys for the dozenth time in BW. Like, really karking annoyed me.
Nevertheless, I prefer to keep my Starcraft fundamentally unfair and even occasionally rage-inducing, because that's what makes it great.
So, I don't hate this article or think it's stupid or even really think it's wrong. The author is probably well aware of what I'm talking about here. His article is well-researched, and mostly well thought out. It's also probably right. Things are "unbalanced" right now.
Nevertheless, my objection remains. Stop trying to take away my Waru Damned, Father-Kriffing toys.
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I don't think I was ever playing TZParcraft 2 though, just StarCraft 2.
Edit: Also whoa, that is an incredible post by Captain Peabody.
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Sigh. Just quit it, will you. You clearly have no idea what you're doing.
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To me that kinda feels like "Hey, look, im terran so even tho im on x level, im actually 10 times better than you think because Terran is so much harder than anything else on this planet!"
You say that like it's completely unreasonable... I switched to protoss and got to my terran rank in two weeks (been playing 3 years). Terran is UP and therefore requires more skill to win than the other races.
Who cares what the tone of the argument is. The facts are the facts. I don't remember anyone ever being sensitive to a Terran's feelings 
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EPT
