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On June 30 2014 22:46 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 22:29 BurningRanger wrote:On June 30 2014 22:21 DinoMight wrote:He could have written all the same things without sounding like a whiny Terran player and people (myself included) would take it a lot more seriously. Sorry, but as soon as someone writes something like "X is too strong/weak", it's considered as whine by said people, regardless how detailed the reasoning or explanation is. It's an article about a race being UP. What do you expect? There are some exaggarations inside that are meant to be funny (I guess). Without them it would be boring and hard to read. It's not funny, it's just whiny. I read an equally long article on Savior written by someone else that didn't have any of that sarcasm in it and found the whole thing very interesting. "Mines are underpowered post nerf because XYZ, links to VODs" is not whine. "OMG SOO can literally take his hands of the keyboard and a-move his army" is balance whine Sometimes if you want to be taken seriously you have to speak/act a certain way. This is why you wear a suit to a job interview. And it's why you don't write articles with that tone.
I find it pretty funny reading that someone was able to stroke his cat during an engagement, but maybe I have a too strange kind of humor.
It's not like he didn't give any examples or explanation how things are bad. He really explained a lot, why things are broken or shouldn't be like that. Instead of repeating that whole text over and over with each example, he shortens it with these "funny" statements that still everyone understands and knows what this is linked to. Repeating the explanations would just be tiresome and prolong an already long article.
Not commenting on the examples at all however would make them hard to link to the respective topic. Leaving them out all together is a no go as well, because then people say "But there are just so few cases. There's no general problem."
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On June 30 2014 22:46 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 22:29 BurningRanger wrote:On June 30 2014 22:21 DinoMight wrote:He could have written all the same things without sounding like a whiny Terran player and people (myself included) would take it a lot more seriously. Sorry, but as soon as someone writes something like "X is too strong/weak", it's considered as whine by said people, regardless how detailed the reasoning or explanation is. It's an article about a race being UP. What do you expect? There are some exaggarations inside that are meant to be funny (I guess). Without them it would be boring and hard to read. It's not funny, it's just whiny. I read an equally long article on Savior written by someone else that didn't have any of that sarcasm in it and found the whole thing very interesting. "Mines are underpowered post nerf because XYZ, links to VODs" is not whine. "OMG SOO can literally take his hands of the keyboard and a-move his army" is balance whine Sometimes if you want to be taken seriously you have to speak/act a certain way. This is why you wear a suit to a job interview. And it's why you don't write articles with that tone.
do you realize that most people got over the tone and an actual discussion is starting?
don't stay behind bitching.
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On June 30 2014 22:20 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 22:11 Ctone23 wrote:Bring the warhound back and make the anit-air a research option  Or is there a solution at all? There is a shit ton of solutions available. A shit ton. MSC : Make twilight required/Reduce range of Overcharge/Time of Timewarp/Time of Overcharge Mutas : Reduce Regen ability. Roaches : Good question, but all in all I think this unit need to be deleted or redesign at LotV since its a most boring unit with fun at all. HTs : Storm cost 100/FB cost 75/HT cost 100/150 instead of 50/150 /Storm deal 80 damage over 6 instead of 4s. WMs : up it by a bit (not like old WM but a middle between old and new. Thors : Smaller and maybe a bit faster. DTs : Bring the fucking cost back to what it was in WoL omg. Oracles : Bring back old speed please. Tanks : Make them deal more damage but with much slower attack maybe (same dps overall). I don't know, there is so much that can be done to tweak the game in the right way. Just pick a couple here and I'm pretty sure the game will be good to play and watch again.
I like a lot of those suggestions. Someone had suggested something along those lines for tanks, making the siege attack two shots instead of one, to effectively buff the tank vs immortals while not increasing the dps overall.
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i don't know who brought it up (sc2toastie?) but i really like the idea of protoss having to choose between a MSc ability at the start....either you
want to be aggressive --> time warp/recall
or
want to be super safe early on --> PO
the not chosen abilities can be unlocked by lets say council tech...so all of them would be available in the late game but protoss would be limited early on, i really like this.
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The point I didn't like about the post is how long it harped upon its theme. The current problems of Terran can be summarized very quickly and deftly :
1) in TvP : the versatiliy of Protoss early game + the strength of the early lategame Protoss army with 4-5 colossi + templars (something I actually disagree with, I think the only problem is the diversity of Protoss early game options ranging from blink/stargate all-ins to 6 min double forge).
2) in TvZ : vulnerability of heavy macro builds to all-ins while the Zerg can drone up quite easily on 3 bases + the lack of a good AOE unit to deal with mutas and banelings.
Patch 2.0.12 is the source of both problems (nerf of mine + oracle becoming much stronger than it needed to be) and sadly it has already led to so many useless patches (+shields damage for mine, servos removal...) that I'm now unsure the solution would just consist in reverting that patch.
Still, I'd like to see a balance test map with oracle speed buff reverted and mine enhanced a bit so that it could kill more banelings. Will never happen though, Blizzard will always prefer to put layers of bandaids over a previous mistake rather than just correcting the mistake itself. Expect more uncalled for and strange buffs to Terran like "marauder is now immune to muta splash and takes half damage from Photon Overcharge. We hope this will allow Terran to put heavy marauder pressure in the early game" or "medivacs can now hold 8 vikings. We think viking drop harass is really cool and hope it'll encourage this kind of moves at the highest level" in the near future.
Oh, and by the way, I forgot a patch that is so needed it hurts : Time Warp needs to go. Seriously. Protoss can do without that spell just fine. Recall and Overcharge are already EXTREMELY good. At least make it a 100/100 research or give it to fully fledged Mothership.
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Since it's terran that have problems with the TvZ and TvP matchup, I think the changes should be done on terran units, not Protoss and Zerg. Any changes done to those two races would affect their matchup, which seems pretty even at the moment.
Changing the stim timing has been suggested, and might be enough? It would be cool if they could buff some late game tech as well, like Battlecruisers, which never gets used.
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What a read :D
I played Terran since launch, quit the game at the end of the BL/infestor era to start playing Dota.
At that point I was hardcore cheesing every Zerg on ladder (with great success!), playing a macro game simply required much higher skill than playing vs T/P at that level. (I was top 8 masters, beating Z at lategame would require GM mechanics)
Against Protoss I played the usual bio style, going for a push when Medivacs came out. I picked up HotS when it launched, my TvP suddenly didn't work nearly as well anymore due to photon overcharge... time for full time Dota :D
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On June 30 2014 23:31 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The point I didn't like about the post is how long it harped upon its theme. The current problems of Terran can be summarized very quickly and deftly :
I don't think that was the point. Besides, he backed up his post with an exorbitant amount of supporting data.
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United Kingdom978 Posts
I'm not going to lie and say there's no issues with Terran being "underpowered" but people are consistently targeting Protoss as the issue and that bugs me a little because the whole problem with Terran, is Terran itself. The way the race was designed is the issue in my eyes.
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On June 30 2014 23:37 Laurens wrote:
What a read :D
I played Terran since launch, quit the game at the end of the BL/infestor era to start playing Dota.
At that point I was hardcore cheesing every Zerg on ladder (with great success!), playing a macro game simply required much higher skill than playing vs T/P at that level. (I was top 8 masters, beating Z at lategame would require GM mechanics)
Against Protoss I played the usual bio style, going for a push when Medivacs came out. I picked up HotS when it launched, my TvP suddenly didn't work nearly as well anymore due to photon overcharge... time for full time Dota :D
just imagine a similiar situation, except you don't have any all ins that would ever work and you have to play lategame.
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There still people who think this is a balance whine....unbelievable
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Former Terran master league, article basically sums up why I've barely touched/watched SC2 the last few months.
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I would have titled it Sparcrafz II (no t's, get it!?)
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United Kingdom978 Posts
On July 01 2014 00:06 Yes Im Otto wrote:
There still people who think this is a balance whine....unbelievable
The way it's written is slightly whiny, whether there's an issue or not there are semblances of balance whine in there, especially when it comes to the part about soO and the Ultralisks. Anyone who disagrees on that front is a bit silly.
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On June 30 2014 23:33 blackbrrd wrote:
Since it's terran that have problems with the TvZ and TvP matchup, I think the changes should be done on terran units, not Protoss and Zerg. Any changes done to those two races would affect their matchup, which seems pretty even at the moment.
Changing the stim timing has been suggested, and might be enough? It would be cool if they could buff some late game tech as well, like Battlecruisers, which never gets used.
How can you buff the BC to make up for the super hard counter that is the Tempest?
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On June 30 2014 22:24 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 22:21 DinoMight wrote:On June 30 2014 14:53 Chaggi wrote:On June 30 2014 14:24 DinoMight wrote:
The front page of TL is no place for thedwf's balance whine. Let him write that crap in the balance discussion section as he has been doing forever.
Sure, he put a lot of work into the piece, and there are a lot of links to games and statistics etc. that "prove" his point. But at the end of the day, it's not written like a research paper. It's written like balance whine.
I'm disappointed TL would features such an article on its front page. It wouldn't be a Balance topic without the great DinoMight chiming in with the most general blanket statements of why an argument is invalid. I guess now I just have a reputation I need to maintain or something? Read my post please. I didn't say his argument was invalid. I said it was written like balance whine. The tone of the article has an extreme Terran bias and therefore makes it hard to read objectively. He could have written all the same things without sounding like a whiny Terran player and people (myself included) would take it a lot more seriously. In that case I wouldn't mind having it posted on the front page of TL, since it's actually a very long detailed article with lots of references and supporting videos. You should look at the definition of editorial.
I have to bring this up: Many of you have a warped idea of what an editorial means. The definition of an editorial is:
a newspaper or magazine article that gives the opinions of the editors or publishers; also : an expression of opinion that resembles such an article <a television editorial>
It's an article that gives the opinion of someone associated with a publication. So the concerns that this does or does not reflect poorly on TeamLiquid are because it has been elevated to the status of an editorial, rather than a user post. The direct association to TeamLiquid is not just handled by the disclaimer, because to be an editorial it should be vetted and determined to be of high enough quality to be considered an editorial, and judgment of its quality reflects back both on the author and the TL editors.
Also, the definition of an editorial has nothing to do with the tone of the editorial, just that it is an opinion piece. Criticizing the tone, accuracy, and objectivity of this or any other editorial is completely fair play, and it's very much fair to ask whether the author has an objective opinion, which is not mutually exclusive with having an opinion at all.
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On July 01 2014 00:26 mongoose22 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 22:24 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 22:21 DinoMight wrote:On June 30 2014 14:53 Chaggi wrote:On June 30 2014 14:24 DinoMight wrote:
The front page of TL is no place for thedwf's balance whine. Let him write that crap in the balance discussion section as he has been doing forever.
Sure, he put a lot of work into the piece, and there are a lot of links to games and statistics etc. that "prove" his point. But at the end of the day, it's not written like a research paper. It's written like balance whine.
I'm disappointed TL would features such an article on its front page. It wouldn't be a Balance topic without the great DinoMight chiming in with the most general blanket statements of why an argument is invalid. I guess now I just have a reputation I need to maintain or something? Read my post please. I didn't say his argument was invalid. I said it was written like balance whine. The tone of the article has an extreme Terran bias and therefore makes it hard to read objectively. He could have written all the same things without sounding like a whiny Terran player and people (myself included) would take it a lot more seriously. In that case I wouldn't mind having it posted on the front page of TL, since it's actually a very long detailed article with lots of references and supporting videos. You should look at the definition of editorial. I have to bring this up: Many of you have a warped idea of what an editorial means. The definition of an editorial is: a newspaper or magazine article that gives the opinions of the editors or publishers; also : an expression of opinion that resembles such an article <a television editorial>It's an article that gives the opinion of someone associated with a publication. So the concerns that this does or does not reflect poorly on TeamLiquid are because it has been elevated to the status of an editorial, rather than a user post. The direct association to TeamLiquid is not just handled by the disclaimer, because to be an editorial it should be vetted and determined to be of high enough quality to be considered an editorial, and judgment of its quality reflects back both on the author and the TL editors. Also, the definition of an editorial has nothing to do with the tone of the editorial, just that it is an opinion piece. Criticizing the tone, accuracy, and objectivity of this or any other editorial is completely fair play, and it's very much fair to ask whether the author has an objective opinion, which is not mutually exclusive with having an opinion at all.
Seems much more like a lack of other way to attack the article imho.
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Hello dude, I just registered to TL to say that I love you! Thanks for this work, I hope itt'll help the game
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On June 30 2014 23:41 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 23:31 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The point I didn't like about the post is how long it harped upon its theme. The current problems of Terran can be summarized very quickly and deftly :
I don't think that was the point. Besides, he backed up his post with an exorbitant amount of supporting data.
Maybe I phrased myself badly, but the back up thing and all is part of what I didn't like. It's too long to make points that can be summarized and explained quite easily. No need to write a novel to explain, even with a bit of history and back up games, that Terran is currently the lagging race.
By the way, funnily enough, the lagging race of HotS is not Terran in terms of Premier Tournaments wins : 17 P - 16 T - 10 Z. Balance wanes and waxes, an upcoming patch or a change in maps will turn the tide and suddenly Terran will hold its flag strong again.
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On July 01 2014 00:06 Yes Im Otto wrote:
There still people who think this is a balance whine....unbelievable
Well, it is someone complaining about balance.
But I'm all for people expressing their opinions in intelligent ways. I just wish people would point the finger at the only group who can actually fix the problem: Blizzard Entertainment.
People with clout and status in the community have been so passive aggressive about balance and game design, instead of directly facing Blizzard and saying "you're not doing a good job, and we're not going to support your game unless you do better." We did see bits and pieces of it at the last International, but overall that is the only way anything changes. Just like any nation around the world (or maybe just the US), nothing actually changes until the richest 1% want it to change. We peons are meaningless.
The fact is, Blizzard got lucky BW worked out the way it did. And their attempts to balance and design SC2 have left us with this. SC2 is a shell of what it was in WOL, certainly in terms of popularity, I'd argue in game play too.
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EPT
