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On June 30 2014 02:15 Axxis wrote:
I seriously laughed my way through this. Biased arguments and opinionated views aplenty. I would bet this guy cries himself to sleep at night. This does nothing but promote negativity and create balance whine. What was it we used to hear back in GomTVT?
"Well, it just happens to be all the best players are Terran right now."
"The game isn't imba, good zergs/protoss win occasionally."
We heard this garbage for YEARS, not a couple seasons. How about let the metagame develop and see how players evolve. You guys are the most ridiculous judgemental whiners in all of gaming.
you missed the last years I believe? First half year of release of WOL is not the same as HOTS. You know there were alot of patches and that a whole new expansion came out. This has nothing to do with meta game.
But I guess I believe your opinion better, than OP´s because you know he wrote 40 pages with analysis, statistics and examples and you wrote 3 lines. So you have to be right ofc.
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On June 29 2014 21:57 Kosak wrote:
I hate these sort of articles so much, they just embrace the general hateful feeling towards the game and its balance when terrans have all the tools to win every freaking game just by outplaying the opponent
Did you read the article?
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What an amazing article. One of the best thing I've read on TL and I'm Zerg.
I can't imagine the amount of work necessary to write this. Anyone who doesn't take this seriously is a fool.
I wish I could debate it but to be honest, it would require an equaly enormous amount of time : checking each of the matches your cited as example, getting the meta from the times of your example, its evolution, etc... Something that I believe most of the TLers won't have the time to do even though they had the desire to do so.
So I just hope that the only entity to make of use of this article, Blizzard, will read and learn about this.
The only thing that be would weaker than the rest is second half of the article where it somehow took the form of whinning, there is more jokes than actual matches examples. It felt more like a catharsis, where detailing the flaws of Terran for too long made you angrier.
I would have changed this, especially if you want Blizzard to read it. Maybe you feel better now that your mesage is out, but it would be shame to not put that work to use.
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On June 30 2014 02:08 cloneThorN wrote:
Apparently you can whine as much as you want on TL.NET if you disguise it as a blog/article.
Seriously, for anyone reading this, i recomend that you take it with two pounds of salt.
Also, on the point about patch terran not existing, i want to point out that the ladder on EU and NA was one-sidedy dominated by terrans doing nothing but hellbat drops(bunny, lucifron, happy and kas)
Yet terrans (unlike zerg) was never overrepresented. Rather, terrans who previously suffered from Lings of Liberty simply benefitted from the more balanced HOTS. You can go back and check all the numbers you want, but there was never any statistical evidence in favour of "patchterrans", but right now we are seeing zergs and too a lesser extent being way way overpresented.
Hellbats were dominant at one point vs zerg, but never really overpowered.
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On June 30 2014 02:28 Apollo_Shards wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 21:57 Kosak wrote:
I hate these sort of articles so much, they just embrace the general hateful feeling towards the game and its balance when terrans have all the tools to win every freaking game just by outplaying the opponent Did you read the article?
I think the guy you're quoting is ironic ! 
I wish I could debate it but to be honest, it would require an equaly enormous amount of time : checking each of the matches your cited as example, getting the meta from the times of your example, its evolution, etc... Something that I believe most of the TLers won't have the time to do even though they had the desire to do so.
So I just hope that the only entity to make of use of this article, Blizzard, will read and learn about this.
The only thing that be would weaker than the rest is second half of the article where it somehow took the form of whinning, there is more jokes than actual matches examples. It felt more like a catharsis, where detailing the flaws of Terran for too long made you angrier.
Completely agree with you on this.
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On June 30 2014 02:28 Apollo_Shards wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 21:57 Kosak wrote:
I hate these sort of articles so much, they just embrace the general hateful feeling towards the game and its balance when terrans have all the tools to win every freaking game just by outplaying the opponent Did you read the article?
That question should be asked of all these people who, without any sense of irony, make whiny posts about how this is all baseless whining. Then, when pressed to come up with enough examples to prove it, they obfuscate by saying it's not worth their time (as though in an article of this size and scope there will be nothing of value) or promise that it's forthcoming.
I especially enjoy the people who have accused him of cherry-picking and point this out by cherry-picking things from the article -- e.g., his sometimes-sarcastic tone or his flippant dismissals of good players. That's valid criticism; perhaps he didn't present his point in a conciliatory way. But the overall point stands, and I guess since it brings up some difficult questions about the game as a whole, it must be shitty and groundless.
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Its interesting to see all of these complain about how now Terran players are so whiny and bitchy... Then they proclaim that this article will make matters worse as he has essentially fueled the fire.
I have a question for you gentlemen. If I were to perhaps look at your post history... Lets say for P players maybe during the 1-1-1 era and Z players during the 4M era, would I potentially find the exact same behavior that you DESPISE now clearly demonstrated by yourself? Whats the word for that again??? Oh yea, Hypocrisy.
Its simple to act all high and mighty and "noble" now that your race has no problems. "Ah look at those whiners, they just blame the game, they are just bad"
Truth is that Blizz could release a patch tomorrow that drastically swung the balance in favor of T, and the exact opposite would happen. Now the Z /P would suddenly be the bitchy race, just like they were at release, and the T would suddenly be noble players. The point is it doesnt matter what race is in the shitter and which race is pure gold right now. People aren't complaining because they are Terran, they are complaining because their race is currently in the shitter like never before. Which magically(apparently) causes people to not be happy about the game and when they post on a game forum they complain, shocking right?
Nobody likes to lose, especially when they feel that their loss(and almost equally as important- the loss of their favorite pro players) due to a game they feel is justifiably unfair. Try having more empathy and appreciate an article like this that is clearly written in a manner of sliding this under D.Kim's office door.
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On June 30 2014 02:30 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 02:08 cloneThorN wrote:
Apparently you can whine as much as you want on TL.NET if you disguise it as a blog/article.
Seriously, for anyone reading this, i recomend that you take it with two pounds of salt.
Also, on the point about patch terran not existing, i want to point out that the ladder on EU and NA was one-sidedy dominated by terrans doing nothing but hellbat drops(bunny, lucifron, happy and kas) Yet terrans (unlike zerg) was never overrepresented. Rather, terrans who previously suffered from Lings of Liberty simply benefitted from the more balanced HOTS. You can go back and check all the numbers you want, but there was never any statistical evidence in favour of "patchterrans", but right now we are seeing zergs and too a lesser extent being way way overpresented. Hellbats were dominant at one point vs zerg, but never really overpowered.
blizzcon finals:
8 terran
6 protoss
2 zergs
yeah terran not overrepresented at all
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On June 30 2014 02:15 Axxis wrote:
I seriously laughed my way through this. Biased arguments and opinionated views aplenty. I would bet this guy cries himself to sleep at night. This does nothing but promote negativity and create balance whine. What was it we used to hear back in GomTVT?
"Well, it just happens to be all the best players are Terran right now."
"The game isn't imba, good zergs/protoss win occasionally."
We heard this garbage for YEARS, not a couple seasons. How about let the metagame develop and see how players evolve. You guys are the most ridiculous judgemental whiners in all of gaming.
Garbage? Dafuq. You'd think hindsight would prove that att that time the best players were terran, but apparently some people are too lazy to liquidpedia GSL. The terrans in the finals at that time are some of the best players to touch the game. Mvp, MMA, Polt, MKP, jjakji, Bomber are some of the best ever. Byun, Ganzi and supernova are solid. I'll give you that TOP seems out of place.
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I haven't visited teamliquid or played SC2 in probably near a year. I quit mostly because I just couldn't stand playing versus Protoss anymore. This post sums up all of the issues with Terran since HOTS in a very well-written manner and with examples. Great work sir.
Too bad this will get overlooked by Blizzard - they've doomed sc2 to a slow death by not acting. Terran is almost non-existant at high levels of play. I barely even watch tournaments anymore because they have very little Terran players, and the quality of the games themselves, regardless of matchup are quickly decreasing due to stagnant meta-game and poor game mechanics like swarm hosts and Nexus Cannon.
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Thanks a lot for this article TheDwf,
it is really a nice read and it is refreshing to see arguments to back up an opinion.
I don't think it is a "balance whine" and all the people claiming that can't differenciate between the reddit whiners and this well thought and you could say "scientific" article (i mean by actually bringing examples of highest level of play, which should be the base for balancing in my opinion).
also anyone in ladder who thinks he gets the right to whine based off of that article didnt get the point. In lower levels (like myself - plat) imbalance doesnt do shit. any form of imbalance can be overcome just by not screwing up macro, and absolutely basic scouting.
the level of play discussed in this article is focused on, you could say human limits(?) which are not reached by the majority of us.
so be grateful for that article that enriches us with information to discuss on a more higher level, instead of setting it equal with all the frustrated low lvl player who intend to win against scrubs with their own scrubby gaming skills. Because if that becomes the basis for balance, nobody will ever watch pro level sc2 again. It is impossible to balance a game for people who cant exploit every aspect of the game without disturbing the balance of people who CAN exploit every feature.
So thanks again for this post TheDwf and analysis (i am terran but i would also be glad to read other opinions of other races which are well thought out and "researched" it just helps us understand the game better, cause i am sure not everyone had all the data in their mind and could see trends and so. even if you dont share his opinion this article is knowledge you gained, even if it is only the formatted data )
sorry, for messed up grammar / spelling (non-native english speaker)
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On June 30 2014 02:39 XXXSmOke wrote:
I have a question for you gentlemen. If I were to perhaps look at your post history... Lets say for P players maybe during the 1-1-1 era and Z players during the 4M era, would I potentially find the exact same behavior that you DESPISE now clearly demonstrated by yourself? Whats the word for that again??? Oh yea, Hypocrisy.
You mean, in the era of 1-1-1 would I find Terran players saying:
On June 29 2014 19:48 TheDwf wrote:Grotesque statements such as "[Protoss] players are all slumping"
Yes, I suppose I would. Hypocrisy indeed.
At least Terrans accurately foretold the coming of the new Protoss savior, Brown.
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While the article uses some irony, it still appears like a big whine.
There are a lot of good arguments made in the editorial, still it reads like someone asks to make the game easier for the own race.
At any point in time, any number of players of any race can give good arguments why the own race is underpowered. If by luck the current statistics seem to somewhat proof that at the highest level the winrate is not totally even, it is used as proof.
Please learn to read statistics (sample size), please stop complaining and invent new strategies instead of whining because old strategies no longer work.
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On June 30 2014 02:49 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 02:39 XXXSmOke wrote:
I have a question for you gentlemen. If I were to perhaps look at your post history... Lets say for P players maybe during the 1-1-1 era and Z players during the 4M era, would I potentially find the exact same behavior that you DESPISE now clearly demonstrated by yourself? Whats the word for that again??? Oh yea, Hypocrisy. You mean, in the era of 1-1-1 would I find Terran players saying: Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 19:48 TheDwf wrote:Grotesque statements such as "[Protoss] players are all slumping" Yes, I suppose I would. Hypocrisy indeed. At least Terrans accurately foretold the coming of the new Protoss savior, Brown.
This proves my point further.
Like I said. These forums will stay in a perfect circle of the dominant race being the noble "Oh, well your just not playing right" while the race in the shitter will continually bitch their way into oblivion. As soon as Blizz changes the game around again you will get a reversal of T's being noble and P/Z bitching. My point is that people that are on the current train of being noble(P/Z) should have more empathy and think about why T's are bitching so much on the forums, but instead they seem to be almost shocked that someone would complain about losing because there race is currently bad which is hypocrisy because most of them have probably demonstrated a similar behavior during their races hard times.
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Yeah, Terran is way harder than the other two races, that much is obvious to anyone who actually plays and watches this game somewhat seriously, Terran only matters if a korean is the one playing the race.
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So, basically nothing has changed since WoL. Kim keeps nerfing Terran and Terran players stand confused asking why. I'm glad I left this game a long time ago.
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On June 30 2014 02:39 Kumagawa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 02:30 Hider wrote:On June 30 2014 02:08 cloneThorN wrote:
Apparently you can whine as much as you want on TL.NET if you disguise it as a blog/article.
Seriously, for anyone reading this, i recomend that you take it with two pounds of salt.
Also, on the point about patch terran not existing, i want to point out that the ladder on EU and NA was one-sidedy dominated by terrans doing nothing but hellbat drops(bunny, lucifron, happy and kas) Yet terrans (unlike zerg) was never overrepresented. Rather, terrans who previously suffered from Lings of Liberty simply benefitted from the more balanced HOTS. You can go back and check all the numbers you want, but there was never any statistical evidence in favour of "patchterrans", but right now we are seeing zergs and too a lesser extent being way way overpresented. Hellbats were dominant at one point vs zerg, but never really overpowered. blizzcon finals: 8 terran 6 protoss 2 zergs yeah terran not overrepresented at all
Wait, your not gonna by representation in one tournament? That's an extremely poor way of representing statistics since it suffers extremely much from variation.
Rather you can look at Aliguacs numbers for games played by competitive games. You will notice that terrans still had the least amount of competetive players post HOTS (though it did go up a bit after WOL). Today, it's lower than it has ever been pointing to a serious balance issue.
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On June 30 2014 02:51 JacobShock wrote:
This went ugly quick..
That was probably inevitable lol.
This article wasn't published here for anything beside click baiting and generating traffic in a slow period anyway.
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EPT
