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Insane amount of text, both old and new facts mixed. I don't get it though, Taeja winning DH 17-0 (not loosing a single map) proves that you need to help terrans? And before that he won Homestory Cup..
And what about mines, what if zerg could have that feature on banelings you just put them underground and they will "auto fire" + "endlessly"...if there is anything that needs to be fixed its the unfairness of mines (and the fact they take 0 apm once you burrow them in a "good spot").
Would rather focus to nerf Protoss a bit, really. The ff part is so silly and early oracle, what a joke that is. With that said I agree something needs to be done with sh as well, them long games be too long.
If I look at top 25 in TLPD, then you get T = 6. Z = 7, P = 12. So terran / zerg around the same, almost twice as many protoss. I rest my case...
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Great read, OP. It's funny watching the Protoss Defense Force fall all over themselves yet again to just spin this as more balance whine with cherry picked statistics blah blah blah. Most people selfishly want to believe that Protoss and Zerg take as much skill as Terran just so they can feel good about their wins  And end up screwing Terran players who want a fair game in the process. Kind of sad but I'm glad this article was written, it just exposes the Protoss Defense Force as the Tea Partyesque mudslinging emotionally-driven politicians that they are, whenever they straight up ignore rational argument just to dismiss it was whine
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On June 30 2014 01:38 DomeGetta wrote:
Ok cool so let me get it straight then.. essentially what you are saying is - he says it's hard to hellbat drop while macroing and you are saying it's not. Those are both opinions...neither one of them is a fact.. this is the same example you sited earlier as "factually not true".. Please re-read your statement and perhaps loop through your logic flow.
Again - you don't like his opinions.. fine.. but stop calling it wrong or factually incorrect unless you have an actual example - it makes the rest of what you say seem less credible.
No, I'm not saying it's not hard. It's probably difficult. But what I'm saying is that sort of multitasking difficulty (harassing while macroing behind) is not something unique to Terran. This kind of obviously skewed stuff is where the reliability of this article falls into serious questioning. The whole "hellbat harass not being as easy as people might think" can be just deleted from the article among many other flawed parts, because harassing while macroing behind is a difficult mechanic common to all three races. But did thedwf mention anything about P or Z having the exact same mechanic issue? He goes on to complain about warp prism (which I don't think has an issue, and highly doubt will be patched anytime soon), but by his logic, couldn't I tell him: "oh you might think warp prism harass is so effective, but we actually have to do A look at B think about C while doing it, so it isn't as good as you might think" ? I could use his very same way of framing arguments against him to counter the points he makes in the article, hence a contradiction. An excellent example of a double-standard.
Nobody is flaming the guy for having an opinion. He makes it sound like his opinion is conclusive and infallible to error just because he added some games where Terran loses. What if I only compiled games in which Terran comes out the victor? Do I now have a legitimate case for T OP? Anyone can copy-paste videos of a particular race losing, analyze why that race lost, and write in that losing race's perspective as to "why there was nothing he/she could do but lose." For some reason thedwf has instantly become a hero to many. I only see a horribly biased, far-from-objective-but-attempts-to-be-seen-as-objective Terran player that's separating the already divided SC2 scene
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Amazing article, loved it.
I can only hope some Blizzard employees read it and keep it in mind when evaluating balance changes in the future, I think it explained many of the current issues with PvT especially very well.
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Wow, such an amazing read. And even though I'm a proud zerg player myself since the Brood War days, and I don't particularly like balance talks, cause they seem too artificial and biased most of the times, I must say, the stats and detailed overview of each situation really makes a point.
Since Starcraft 2 came out, I've always felt that Terran had the biggest potential compared to Protoss and Zerg. I've realized however since probably autumn 2012 (or whenever Broodlord infestor became a staple), that their potential is pretty much a theoretical one, since it's pretty much actually impossible to play as fast and precise as Automaton 2000 or whatever.
Sadly I've felt since a long time ago, and especially after HotS came out that Blizzard wasn't going to ever go for any big changes in Sc2. Right now, the proper solution would be to probably make terran a bit easier and protoss a bit harder to balance out average mistakes made by players per game. Instead they pretty much kept most of the game intact, without really changing much in HotS, and instead opted for some extra units per race, which do affect the game sure... But the core mechanics and unit design still follows the same rules for each race.
I think if Blizzard really wants Sc2 to become more enjoyable to watch, but most importantly play, for all types of players, picking any race, they should start considering changing units, and their design and role in the game, rather than subtle buffs here and there to cover their balancing errors.
It's pretty obvious by now that Blizzard pretty much didn't get almost anything right when it comes to unit design since Sc2 Beta. Most of the units they introduced had different roles than the ones they actually intended (see widow mine being a "space control" unit, or infestors being a "support" unit in WoL) and if you actually see what kind of changes they go for... it's like... "Oops, blink all in too strong" (instead of perhaps changing blink... they nerf the time you need to get upgrade). Same thing with warpgate, stim, siege mode for tanks, hellbat transformation upgrade, hallucination upgrade removed, terran ship upgrades... etc etc...
This is more like patching up your wounds with tape, rather than curing your wounds.
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On June 30 2014 01:52 Picasso wrote:
Nobody is flaming the guy for having an opinion. He makes it sound like his opinion is conclusive and infallible to error just because he added some games where Terran loses. What if I only compiled games in which Terran comes out the victor? Do I now have a legitimate case for T OP? Anyone can copy-paste videos of a particular race losing, analyze why that race lost, and write in that losing race's perspective as to "why there was nothing he/she could do but lose." For some reason thedwf has instantly become a hero to many. I only see a horribly biased, far-from-objective-but-attempts-to-be-seen-as-objective Terran player that's separating the already divided SC2 scene
Go ahead and do it, then Put your money where your mouth is.
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On June 30 2014 01:34 Picasso wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 01:23 DomeGetta wrote:On June 30 2014 01:01 Nezgar wrote:On June 30 2014 00:34 Picasso wrote:On June 30 2014 00:22 Jer99 wrote:
This isn't suppose to be an objective piece, though. This is an editorial from his perspective as a viewer and a player, and he's definitely got the credentials to post as a high level player. With how Terran has been doing he's pretty spot on with his points, albeit the tone is very subjective And, yes, thedwf has his freedom to express his opinions like anyone else. I just think it's terribly wrong that TL is putting this up in their front page as thedwf's whiny tone is what represents SC2 right now. There are plenty of Terrans that don't whine and there are plenty of Ps and Zs that recognize T might be at a disadvantage right now. This editorial being on the front page is more destructive than constructive I think this is what the current discussion all comes down to. It cannot be denied that thedwf put a lot of effort into his article and neither can it be denied that Terrans, especially in korea, are struggling right now. The Problem most people seem to have is the disrespect from his part for the other races, the factually not completely correct statements and the overly whiny undertone throughout the article. On top of that the article is featured on this site which grants it some form of credibility. I would be perfectly fine if this was just a regular post in the balance discussion subforum. I would be perfectly fine if the whole article would be more light-hearted and had a more tongue-in-cheek approach to the situation. I would be perfectly fine if it were completely objective and would consider the roles of the other races more. Alas, this is not the case though. It is featured, it is dead serious and very subjective. It will give fuel to even more balance whines and it might even act as a great example for other people to mask their crap with shiny statistics and flashy videos. This is now the 5th or 6th post that totes "the factually not completely correct statements" but points out not a single one of them. You are criticizing him for "shiny statistics and flashy videos" without any statistics or even points for that matter of your own.. the only reason you guys are pissed that it's featured is because it sheds light on some issues that you would rather not have out there.. period. I stated this before, but as one of MANY instances where the facts are distorted here, thedwf presents hellbat drops as something way overrated because INnoVation (not Bogus, as thedwf wrote; wish thedwf shows some respect for what the guy decides to call himself as) has to keep his production running while executing the drops. But this is nothing shocking or something that Terran is disadvantaged for, because any form of harass has to be happening concurrently with other general macro, whether it be baneling runbys or dt harass. Thedwf makes Terrans sound a lot more pitiful by saying "but...but hellbat drops aren't that good! We have to keep making marines while dropping, you see?" when in reality that's just basic SC mechanics for any of the three races. The reason people aren't bothering to give a case-by-case rebuttal of his disgusting biases are because it would simply take too much !@#$%^&* time to do so. I'd rather point out people's unwarranted logic for advocating a controversial article like this than having to go through multi-dozen hours pointing out the fundamental flaws of this article. And pls stop with the "this will finally shed light on T being underpowered." There were many more elegant ways to frame the issue, in which the author isn't a jerk towards people playing anything but Terran
I think his point is that Hellbat drops takes skills which is true, but besides zealots warp ins, all forms of harass takes skills, and it's basically irrelevant for the point article. Parts like that should have been left out.
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Is this post biased? Yes! Is it written one-sided? Yes!
But there is still a lot of truth in it. If you think Taeja, beating up a bunch of players, that wouldn´t even reach Code A in the GSL, at Dreamhack and HSC, makes terran strong, then you might as well believe in Santa Claus.
And even with his fortunate beatings of some low lvl competition, it has been the longest period ever in SC2 history for a race not winning a premier tournament. Grats to terran for winning that price - by a large margin. Also terran won the lowest race representation in Code S : 2 times on a row. Grats! You want more? Let´s not talk about winning tournaments, but reaching finals... Terran has the lowest representation in premier tournament´s finals for more than a year now.
I don´t even have to talk about ladder representations, results of non-koreans or such stuff. Terran struggles there since 2011. No, we can just look at the very top: the GSL! While the outcomes of WCS AM and EU are allways influenced by the question, which korean star is coming over, the GSL still has the best of the best with very few real top notch players not participating (Taeja might be the only one). And terran in GSL is basically a one-man-show of Maru.
If you still don´t think, that terran is totally UP right now, you are either lying to yourself or have no clue about this game.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
First of all, there is precedent to this article. Remember Ver's Lings of Liberty? Of course you do. While it was tongue-in-cheek to a much greater degree than this article, the foundation of the article was largely the same.
Before this editorial was published, we agreed to be slightly more lenient in moderation due to the subjective and at times whiny nature of TheDwf's article, but given the nature of many replies in this thread as well as the general attitude of many toward the article, I felt the need to clear up a few things.
This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than TheDwf).. This thread was approved for the front page because Dwf put an insane amount of work into this thread. You can disagree with the content of his article, just as one could disagree with my perspective on Naniwa in the pre-Blizzcon article last year, but claiming that this is a ”low-quality article” or a ”piece of shit balance whine” is disrespectful and incorrect. It is neither low-quality nor shit. It is strongly opinionated, as most of everything Dwf writes on the topic, but to disregard every scrap of information he uses to back it up and refuting it with nothing of your own does not make you look intelligent, it does not prove a single word written in the article, and it does not contribute to anything.
Regarding TL's policy on balance whining: ”Balance whining” isn't two absolutes – whining or not whining. There is more to balance discussions than just whining. You do not have to approve of the tone of the article, but equating a sweeping statement along the lines of ”Toss is shit race, sOs no skill only cannon rushes” to a 40-page essay detailing the difficulties of handling the Protoss race as Terran again only makes you look stupid. TL's policy on balance whining still apply, we do not and never have accepted the kind of balance statements that A) are not backed up by fact or B) propose no solutions and explanations for the current state of balance.
This article, subjective as it is and whiny as it may seem, is one of the most in-depth articles on balance in SC2 ever written, and it is only fair that our policy be altered somewhat to reflect that. If Dwf had written this article without citing sources and any more negatively than he did, it wouldn't have been worthy of posting on Teamliquid. But the work put in and the facts that back it up more than make up for the downsides of this article. Elsewhere on TL, the policy on balance whining remains unchanged. If you cannot be constructive, your post is not welcome.
Bashing: balance is always a delicate subject and a subject where opinions vary greatly between users. It is our hope that this article can spark actually constructive discussion. We are not demanding that you put in three days of work into writing a reply, but please respect the amount of work put in by both Dwf and the people that helped him put this thread out. While balance discussions are allowed to a greater extent in this thread than in others, standards for low-quality posting still apply. Shit posts are not welcome here any more than elsewhere.
Criticism: By all means, criticize the article. If you disagree, point out what you feel the article did wrong or factual errors in the text. However, going along with the point above, please do this in a constructive fashion. The article was written largely to provoke discussion, and ”You're wrong lol” isn't discussing, it's bad posting.
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It's odd the number of people who hope this article will influence Blizzard's next balance patch, since the article begins by complaining that Blizzard are morons for altering balance with patches rather than just waiting and watching even when one race "appears" to be dominating.
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Apparently you can whine as much as you want on TL.NET if you disguise it as a blog/article.
Seriously, for anyone reading this, i recomend that you take it with two pounds of salt.
Also, on the point about patch terran not existing, i want to point out that the ladder on EU and NA was one-sidedy dominated by terrans doing nothing but hellbat drops(bunny, lucifron, happy and kas)
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On June 30 2014 01:54 sertman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 01:52 Picasso wrote:
Nobody is flaming the guy for having an opinion. He makes it sound like his opinion is conclusive and infallible to error just because he added some games where Terran loses. What if I only compiled games in which Terran comes out the victor? Do I now have a legitimate case for T OP? Anyone can copy-paste videos of a particular race losing, analyze why that race lost, and write in that losing race's perspective as to "why there was nothing he/she could do but lose." For some reason thedwf has instantly become a hero to many. I only see a horribly biased, far-from-objective-but-attempts-to-be-seen-as-objective Terran player that's separating the already divided SC2 scene Go ahead and do it, then Put your money where your mouth is.
He won't because you can't actually argue with many of the points the article brings up. That's the real reason no one will go point-by-point: it would make them actually confront the fact that their race is OP vs Terran
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United States7483 Posts
On June 30 2014 02:08 checkupriv wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 01:54 sertman wrote:On June 30 2014 01:52 Picasso wrote:
Nobody is flaming the guy for having an opinion. He makes it sound like his opinion is conclusive and infallible to error just because he added some games where Terran loses. What if I only compiled games in which Terran comes out the victor? Do I now have a legitimate case for T OP? Anyone can copy-paste videos of a particular race losing, analyze why that race lost, and write in that losing race's perspective as to "why there was nothing he/she could do but lose." For some reason thedwf has instantly become a hero to many. I only see a horribly biased, far-from-objective-but-attempts-to-be-seen-as-objective Terran player that's separating the already divided SC2 scene Go ahead and do it, then Put your money where your mouth is. He won't because you can't actually argue with many of the points the article brings up. That's the real reason no one will go point-by-point: it would make them actually confront the fact that their race is OP vs Terran
He won't because it would take him a week of his time. There are a lot of points one could argue against. I'll be attempting to do so as soon as I have time to commit to doing it, hopefully within the next couple of days or so.
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how many terran name won tournament ?
how many toss name won tournament ?
how many zerg name won tournament ?
Terran is actually the only race to have a Skill cap that permit to ppl to make difference ingame that's what we love in sc2
Zerg and particularly toss require this thing too !
And there goes E-sports!
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On June 30 2014 02:09 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 02:08 checkupriv wrote:On June 30 2014 01:54 sertman wrote:On June 30 2014 01:52 Picasso wrote:
Nobody is flaming the guy for having an opinion. He makes it sound like his opinion is conclusive and infallible to error just because he added some games where Terran loses. What if I only compiled games in which Terran comes out the victor? Do I now have a legitimate case for T OP? Anyone can copy-paste videos of a particular race losing, analyze why that race lost, and write in that losing race's perspective as to "why there was nothing he/she could do but lose." For some reason thedwf has instantly become a hero to many. I only see a horribly biased, far-from-objective-but-attempts-to-be-seen-as-objective Terran player that's separating the already divided SC2 scene Go ahead and do it, then Put your money where your mouth is. He won't because you can't actually argue with many of the points the article brings up. That's the real reason no one will go point-by-point: it would make them actually confront the fact that their race is OP vs Terran He won't because it would take him a week of his time. There are a lot of points one could argue against. I'll be attempting to do so as soon as I have time to commit to doing it, hopefully within the next couple of days or so.
Ok
I'll be waiting
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I seriously laughed my way through this. Biased arguments and opinionated views aplenty. I would bet this guy cries himself to sleep at night. This does nothing but promote negativity and create balance whine. What was it we used to hear back in GomTVT?
"Well, it just happens to be all the best players are Terran right now."
"The game isn't imba, good zergs/protoss win occasionally."
We heard this garbage for YEARS, not a couple seasons. How about let the metagame develop and see how players evolve. You guys are the most ridiculous judgemental whiners in all of gaming.
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On June 30 2014 02:08 cloneThorN wrote:
Also, on the point about patch terran not existing, i want to point out that the ladder on EU and NA was one-sidedy dominated by terrans doing nothing but hellbat drops(bunny, lucifron, happy and kas)
I think saying that these players are "patch terran" show your lack of objecivity. Lucifron was one of the best foreigner - and the best foreign terran- by the end of wings of liberty, and i don't think anyone would say that terran was OP at the time. Kas and Happy have both been two of the best non-korean terran as well since the begining of SC2, and are - as Lucifron btw- w3 veteran. Bunny is imo the best foreign terran now, while terran is struggling lately.
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On June 30 2014 02:15 Axxis wrote:
I seriously laughed my way through this. Biased arguments and opinionated views aplenty. I would bet this guy cries himself to sleep at night. This does nothing but promote negativity and create balance whine. What was it we used to hear back in GomTVT?
"Well, it just happens to be all the best players are Terran right now."
"The game isn't imba, good zergs/protoss win occasionally."
We heard this garbage for YEARS, not a couple seasons. How about let the metagame develop and see how players evolve. You guys are the most ridiculous judgemental whiners in all of gaming.
oh please, terran has been terrible for an year now. If that doesnt matter anything to you then youre a delusional idiot.
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i wanted to read this but then i realized how long it was. lol. i respect the work that must've gone into this though.
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On June 30 2014 02:15 Axxis wrote:
I seriously laughed my way through this. Biased arguments and opinionated views aplenty. I would bet this guy cries himself to sleep at night. This does nothing but promote negativity and create balance whine. What was it we used to hear back in GomTVT?
"Well, it just happens to be all the best players are Terran right now."
"The game isn't imba, good zergs/protoss win occasionally."
We heard this garbage for YEARS, not a couple seasons. How about let the metagame develop and see how players evolve. You guys are the most ridiculous judgemental whiners in all of gaming.
How hard is it to grasp what the term "editorial" means?
Obviously it is opinionated. It's outright with that. If you disagree with some/all of the points, argue the points, proof your argument as well as the author, and the discussion will profit from it.
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EPT
