On June 02 2014 19:17 boxerfred wrote: If a company has such a reputation, how can they still keep on being around?
Because players are absolutely terrible at making business decisions. They go to events that have no intention of ever paying them, they join teams that clearly don't have the resources to support them, and they join management groups that don't have the business knowledge to see through the various scams.
gotta take chances to succeed, sc2 isn't an established industry.
in my eyes its more a bunch of persons scaming another bunch of ignorant gamers
overambitious business projects are not necessarily scams..
On June 02 2014 19:17 boxerfred wrote: If a company has such a reputation, how can they still keep on being around?
Because players are absolutely terrible at making business decisions. They go to events that have no intention of ever paying them, they join teams that clearly don't have the resources to support them, and they join management groups that don't have the business knowledge to see through the various scams.
gotta take chances to succeed, sc2 isn't an established industry.
in my eyes its more a bunch of persons scaming another bunch of ignorant gamers
overambitious business projects are not necessarily scams..
I think this is the most accurate.
but Clauf was the best thing ever a few month ago !
On June 02 2014 19:17 boxerfred wrote: If a company has such a reputation, how can they still keep on being around?
Because players are absolutely terrible at making business decisions. They go to events that have no intention of ever paying them, they join teams that clearly don't have the resources to support them, and they join management groups that don't have the business knowledge to see through the various scams.
gotta take chances to succeed, sc2 isn't an established industry.
in my eyes its more a bunch of persons scaming another bunch of ignorant gamers
overambitious business projects are not necessarily scams..
I think this is the most accurate.
How exactly? From what I seem to remember this is the latest 'overambitious' project in a long line of projects that didn't pan out in the end, where every single time more dodgy information comes out about the financing and organization. This isn't a small time team hiring a player they can't afford, which happens from time to time, after which the team collapses and is never heard from again, or some other overambitious venture. With the claufzubu guys you're just waiting for the next piece of bad news, and players/casters/anyone else associating with them should seriously think about what they're doing. Once you have a reputation for working with these people its pretty hard to get rid of it in a scene as small as ours.
Next to that, from what we know, both Clauf/Azubu are both backed by the mysterious Sapinda group who apparently have millions to blow on mysterious projects but can't pay out measly price money. Come to think of it, isn't GEM or EMG or whatever also backed by them? So we now have one part of an organization supposedly funded by Sapinda owing money to another organization funded by them?
On June 02 2014 19:17 boxerfred wrote: If a company has such a reputation, how can they still keep on being around?
Because players are absolutely terrible at making business decisions. They go to events that have no intention of ever paying them, they join teams that clearly don't have the resources to support them, and they join management groups that don't have the business knowledge to see through the various scams.
gotta take chances to succeed, sc2 isn't an established industry.
in my eyes its more a bunch of persons scaming another bunch of ignorant gamers
overambitious business projects are not necessarily scams..
I think this is the most accurate.
How exactly? From what I seem to remember this is the latest 'overambitious' project in a long line of projects that didn't pan out in the end, where every single time more dodgy information comes out about the financing and organization. This isn't a small time team hiring a player they can't afford, which happens from time to time, after which the team collapses and is never heard from again, or some other overambitious venture. With the claufzubu guys you're just waiting for the next piece of bad news, and players/casters/anyone else associating with them should seriously think about what they're doing. Once you have a reputation for working with these people its pretty hard to get rid of it in a scene as small as ours.
Next to that, from what we know, both Clauf/Azubu are both backed by the mysterious Sapinda group who apparently have millions to blow on mysterious projects but can't pay out measly price money. Come to think of it, isn't GEM or EMG or whatever also backed by them? So we now have one part of an organization supposedly funded by Sapinda owing money to another organization funded by them?
At least they are speaking up, acknowledging their short comings, and engaging in discussion with the community. Whether they are sincere... We'll see if they make good on their debts. As Grubby said, if they get everyone what they are owed then there is some forgiveness to be had. I remember when I first got into following esports in the early days of SC2 this same story was playing out for ESL. Now look at where they are at... one of the most standup organizations in the business. I hope ESGN can do the same.
On June 02 2014 19:17 boxerfred wrote: If a company has such a reputation, how can they still keep on being around?
Because players are absolutely terrible at making business decisions. They go to events that have no intention of ever paying them, they join teams that clearly don't have the resources to support them, and they join management groups that don't have the business knowledge to see through the various scams.
gotta take chances to succeed, sc2 isn't an established industry.
in my eyes its more a bunch of persons scaming another bunch of ignorant gamers
overambitious business projects are not necessarily scams..
I think this is the most accurate.
i think people involved with a company shouldnt comment in threads with a positive opinion on said company without disclosing that relationship.
Kind of rare to see those guys coming out to do some PR statement. Let's see if they really pay what they said, but by now harm is done and their reputation suffered big time.
This is such a big management mistake for people supposed to be big guns in the esport industry. I don't see this company surviving for to long : they will never make enough money compared to their spending if they continue with the same model, and they will never be able to do another round of funding (or that would be VERY surprising) after they finish to blow all their cash.
It's really sad, so much could have been done with that much money + Show Spoiler +
INVEST IN PRIME
but instead its just a failed venture producing awkward content
On June 02 2014 19:17 boxerfred wrote: If a company has such a reputation, how can they still keep on being around?
because people dont care. they had a reputation before esgn even existed and everyone who has been a part of their project decided that a nice trip to germany (and the possibility of getting paid) was worth more than keeping their hands clean.
and the community seems to support this. everyone is 99% sure this money is dirty if not outright illegal but the consensus seems to be that if you can get a piece of the pie then thats great for you.
And so far there has ben no proof that the money is "dirty". I dont even know what that is supposed to mean. Does it mean money laundering? I keep seeing people throwing that word around. Just pissing away money is not how money laundering works though. On top of that you dont do it with something so high profile. Looks much more like someone is investing money in a very bad manner. So some rich guy somewhere (might be this Hershov guy) maybe has to lay off on his next Ferrari for a few months. Why should I care?
As for the employees, every single one of them could have known that their company is far away from having a stable business model. People that only glanced at this in passing realized that. So I dont feel sorry for them.
On June 02 2014 19:17 boxerfred wrote: If a company has such a reputation, how can they still keep on being around?
Because players are absolutely terrible at making business decisions. They go to events that have no intention of ever paying them, they join teams that clearly don't have the resources to support them, and they join management groups that don't have the business knowledge to see through the various scams.
gotta take chances to succeed, sc2 isn't an established industry.
in my eyes its more a bunch of persons scaming another bunch of ignorant gamers
overambitious business projects are not necessarily scams..
I think this is the most accurate.
Oh man you've got some balls to post in this thread
On June 02 2014 19:17 boxerfred wrote: If a company has such a reputation, how can they still keep on being around?
Because players are absolutely terrible at making business decisions. They go to events that have no intention of ever paying them, they join teams that clearly don't have the resources to support them, and they join management groups that don't have the business knowledge to see through the various scams.
gotta take chances to succeed, sc2 isn't an established industry.
in my eyes its more a bunch of persons scaming another bunch of ignorant gamers
overambitious business projects are not necessarily scams..
I think this is the most accurate.
Tack on "reckless" to overambitious. They just went balls out with their spending thinking if they had everything they ever wanted to have in a room (casters, players, titties, stage, etc) that its appeal would carry them most of the way. Maybe in different hands it could, supported by a solid structure. Instead, we have a structure with pre-recorded games that can fall behind the meta (yeah it's to save on travel/scheduling, but alone is a strong blow to viewership), awkward as hell occurrences like random singing and 'the wheel' that turn off viewers, and the apparent mindet of an 80's business guy that no matter how blatantly you try to sell the sex appeal angle that it's a good idea:
I wish someone else had been running the whole show, badly. Even then I couldn't imagine how hard it would be to sustain something like this that isn't exclusive live tournament content, considering the player/caster travel alone.
On June 02 2014 19:17 boxerfred wrote: If a company has such a reputation, how can they still keep on being around?
Because players are absolutely terrible at making business decisions. They go to events that have no intention of ever paying them, they join teams that clearly don't have the resources to support them, and they join management groups that don't have the business knowledge to see through the various scams.
gotta take chances to succeed, sc2 isn't an established industry.
in my eyes its more a bunch of persons scaming another bunch of ignorant gamers
overambitious business projects are not necessarily scams..
I think this is the most accurate.
How exactly? From what I seem to remember this is the latest 'overambitious' project in a long line of projects that didn't pan out in the end, where every single time more dodgy information comes out about the financing and organization. This isn't a small time team hiring a player they can't afford, which happens from time to time, after which the team collapses and is never heard from again, or some other overambitious venture. With the claufzubu guys you're just waiting for the next piece of bad news, and players/casters/anyone else associating with them should seriously think about what they're doing. Once you have a reputation for working with these people its pretty hard to get rid of it in a scene as small as ours.
Next to that, from what we know, both Clauf/Azubu are both backed by the mysterious Sapinda group who apparently have millions to blow on mysterious projects but can't pay out measly price money. Come to think of it, isn't GEM or EMG or whatever also backed by them? So we now have one part of an organization supposedly funded by Sapinda owing money to another organization funded by them?
I was originally going to say how Sapinda is a legit venture capital group that's exploring the eSports market... until I read up on the founder of Sapinda... does not seem like a legit operator at all (I mean he did plea out to fraud and embezzlement and all, which to his defenders just means he has a clean record, but come on). But to be fair they are separate entities, which is why Sapinda having money doesn't matter jack-all for Clauf paying out prize money.
Anyways, I agree with people questioning Torte's commenting here. Without mentioning that you work for these guys, couldn't this almost been seen as astroturfing?
On June 02 2014 19:17 boxerfred wrote: If a company has such a reputation, how can they still keep on being around?
Because players are absolutely terrible at making business decisions. They go to events that have no intention of ever paying them, they join teams that clearly don't have the resources to support them, and they join management groups that don't have the business knowledge to see through the various scams.
gotta take chances to succeed, sc2 isn't an established industry.
in my eyes its more a bunch of persons scaming another bunch of ignorant gamers
overambitious business projects are not necessarily scams..
I think this is the most accurate.
How exactly? From what I seem to remember this is the latest 'overambitious' project in a long line of projects that didn't pan out in the end, where every single time more dodgy information comes out about the financing and organization. This isn't a small time team hiring a player they can't afford, which happens from time to time, after which the team collapses and is never heard from again, or some other overambitious venture. With the claufzubu guys you're just waiting for the next piece of bad news, and players/casters/anyone else associating with them should seriously think about what they're doing. Once you have a reputation for working with these people its pretty hard to get rid of it in a scene as small as ours.
Next to that, from what we know, both Clauf/Azubu are both backed by the mysterious Sapinda group who apparently have millions to blow on mysterious projects but can't pay out measly price money. Come to think of it, isn't GEM or EMG or whatever also backed by them? So we now have one part of an organization supposedly funded by Sapinda owing money to another organization funded by them?
I was originally going to say how Sapinda is a legit venture capital group that's exploring the eSports market... until I read up on the founder of Sapinda... does not seem like a legit operator at all (I mean he did plea out to fraud and embezzlement and all, which to his defenders just means he has a clean record, but come on). But to be fair they are separate entities, which is why Sapinda having money doesn't matter jack-all for Clauf paying out prize money.
Anyways, I agree with people questioning Torte's commenting here. Without mentioning that you work for these guys, couldn't this almost been seen as astroturfing?
Sorry, I assumed it was commonly known among TeamLiquid members. I can add the disclaimer as this was arrogant of me to presume so.
On June 03 2014 05:38 turdburgler wrote: its not a question of arrogance and you know that, now you just sound passive aggressive.
its simply a question of good work practices.
??? he apologized, agreed with you and added the disclaimer you asked for, and you're still angry because he didn't word it the way you wanted him to? why are you being so confrontational with the guy? this is becoming a pointless derail...
On June 03 2014 05:38 turdburgler wrote: its not a question of arrogance and you know that, now you just sound passive aggressive.
its simply a question of good work practices.
??? he apologized, agreed with you and added the disclaimer you asked for, and you're still angry because he didn't word it the way you wanted him to? why are you being so confrontational with the guy? this is becoming a pointless derail...
On June 02 2014 19:17 boxerfred wrote: If a company has such a reputation, how can they still keep on being around?
Because players are absolutely terrible at making business decisions. They go to events that have no intention of ever paying them, they join teams that clearly don't have the resources to support them, and they join management groups that don't have the business knowledge to see through the various scams.
gotta take chances to succeed, sc2 isn't an established industry.
in my eyes its more a bunch of persons scaming another bunch of ignorant gamers
overambitious business projects are not necessarily scams..
I think this is the most accurate.
How exactly? From what I seem to remember this is the latest 'overambitious' project in a long line of projects that didn't pan out in the end, where every single time more dodgy information comes out about the financing and organization. This isn't a small time team hiring a player they can't afford, which happens from time to time, after which the team collapses and is never heard from again, or some other overambitious venture. With the claufzubu guys you're just waiting for the next piece of bad news, and players/casters/anyone else associating with them should seriously think about what they're doing. Once you have a reputation for working with these people its pretty hard to get rid of it in a scene as small as ours.
Next to that, from what we know, both Clauf/Azubu are both backed by the mysterious Sapinda group who apparently have millions to blow on mysterious projects but can't pay out measly price money. Come to think of it, isn't GEM or EMG or whatever also backed by them? So we now have one part of an organization supposedly funded by Sapinda owing money to another organization funded by them?
I was originally going to say how Sapinda is a legit venture capital group that's exploring the eSports market... until I read up on the founder of Sapinda... does not seem like a legit operator at all (I mean he did plea out to fraud and embezzlement and all, which to his defenders just means he has a clean record, but come on). But to be fair they are separate entities, which is why Sapinda having money doesn't matter jack-all for Clauf paying out prize money.
Anyways, I agree with people questioning Torte's commenting here. Without mentioning that you work for these guys, couldn't this almost been seen as astroturfing?
Sorry, I assumed it was commonly known among TeamLiquid members. I can add the disclaimer as this was arrogant of me to presume so.
I'm sure most people are very well aware that you have some connection to them, the arrogance isn't in not mentioning that you work there its in posting that ESGN was simply 'overambitious' when their owners have pretty negative track record overall and have never done anything to clear up valid questions asked by the community. With people like you (and Frodan) working there we could hope that there'd be a little more transparency/responsiveness from Clauf's side, yet all that we get is bad news followed by a statement that amounts to nothing more than stonewalling.
On June 02 2014 19:17 boxerfred wrote: If a company has such a reputation, how can they still keep on being around?
Because players are absolutely terrible at making business decisions. They go to events that have no intention of ever paying them, they join teams that clearly don't have the resources to support them, and they join management groups that don't have the business knowledge to see through the various scams.
gotta take chances to succeed, sc2 isn't an established industry.
in my eyes its more a bunch of persons scaming another bunch of ignorant gamers
overambitious business projects are not necessarily scams..
I think this is the most accurate.
How exactly? From what I seem to remember this is the latest 'overambitious' project in a long line of projects that didn't pan out in the end, where every single time more dodgy information comes out about the financing and organization. This isn't a small time team hiring a player they can't afford, which happens from time to time, after which the team collapses and is never heard from again, or some other overambitious venture. With the claufzubu guys you're just waiting for the next piece of bad news, and players/casters/anyone else associating with them should seriously think about what they're doing. Once you have a reputation for working with these people its pretty hard to get rid of it in a scene as small as ours.
Next to that, from what we know, both Clauf/Azubu are both backed by the mysterious Sapinda group who apparently have millions to blow on mysterious projects but can't pay out measly price money. Come to think of it, isn't GEM or EMG or whatever also backed by them? So we now have one part of an organization supposedly funded by Sapinda owing money to another organization funded by them?
I was originally going to say how Sapinda is a legit venture capital group that's exploring the eSports market... until I read up on the founder of Sapinda... does not seem like a legit operator at all (I mean he did plea out to fraud and embezzlement and all, which to his defenders just means he has a clean record, but come on). But to be fair they are separate entities, which is why Sapinda having money doesn't matter jack-all for Clauf paying out prize money.
Anyways, I agree with people questioning Torte's commenting here. Without mentioning that you work for these guys, couldn't this almost been seen as astroturfing?
Sorry, I assumed it was commonly known among TeamLiquid members. I can add the disclaimer as this was arrogant of me to presume so.
I'm sure most people are very well aware that you have some connection to them, the arrogance isn't in not mentioning that you work there its in posting that ESGN was simply 'overambitious' when their owners have pretty negative track record overall and have never done anything to clear up valid questions asked by the community. With people like you (and Frodan) working there we could hope that there'd be a little more transparency/responsiveness from Clauf's side, yet all that we get is bad news followed by a statement that amounts to nothing more than stonewalling.
You're right and that is, in part, my fault (I won't speak for Dan as I'm sure he wanted to speak more openly as well). I'm sorry I couldn't be more open about things, our inner-workings and plans especially as I tried to at the beginning and as we were ramping up production for shows.
With how PR wanted to be handled and ultimately, how community management was to be handled was beyond my control and something I had faith in their ability and decision to do as they were hired to do it (it wasn't a part of my job but I felt compelled to speak up about the company to a community I always felt a part of from the very start -- via blogs, tweets on the studio floor, etc.).
It's a bit too late now (especially so) to clarify things and to be honest, if I start responding to everything here it will never end. When the dust settles and everything that's been wronged is right (as that is something we are all actively working towards), I'll do a sort of an AMA that try and enlighten everyone (so long as it doesn't impede or hurt anyone involved or future employment should the company close up shop).
'Overambitious' would be the word I would use in their vision/ideas/goals; it is no way meaning to overlook the dire situation ESGN is in now nor those affected from outstanding payments.
I will be reading all responses and messages here, but I may not further respond as I can't speak on behalf of the company.
EPT
