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On April 20 2014 20:08 shid0x wrote:
Make a billion overlord
load some of them with bane
Send the empty one first so they tank spore damage
Then baneling bomb swarmhost
new meta.
fukin zerg players so unimaginative.
You don't really get how badly spores destroy biological units. Also banes cost lots of gas, and don't get bonus damage vs hosts. Unless you had something like all of alterzim except your opponent's corner to work with, it's not happening. Also you need detection to see the hosts to begin with, good luck getting seers, who also cost gas, through to sit over the host line.
What you are proposing is unrealistic.
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On April 19 2014 23:39 Verator wrote:
If blizzard refuses to balance their own game competently, the community has to. This is a bit extreme, but the scene can't wait for blizzard for years to realize the flaws of their methods.
Didn't read the entire thread, but THIS is pretty much spot on. They seriously need to fix this shit.
On April 20 2014 16:35 CutTheEnemy wrote:
As a chess player I find this sad. Stalemates in chess are way more interesting than in sc2 though...
Stalemate are ok and even fun, it's just the way you're going for the stalemate (ie playing SH) that makes the game very uninteresting.
I'm pretty sure a LOT of zerg doesn't like going SH. They're doing so because it gives wins. You just can't deny that SH is really strong but also deep inside the zerg's hearth they're bleeding everytime they're doing it. 
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On April 20 2014 21:49 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 23:39 Verator wrote:
If blizzard refuses to balance their own game competently, the community has to. This is a bit extreme, but the scene can't wait for blizzard for years to realize the flaws of their methods. Didn't read the entire thread, but THIS is pretty much spot on. They seriously need to fix this shit. Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 16:35 CutTheEnemy wrote:
As a chess player I find this sad. Stalemates in chess are way more interesting than in sc2 though... Stalemate are ok and even fun, it's just the way you're going for the stalemate (ie playing SH) that makes the game very uninteresting.
If they would add the ability of passing turns in Chess, we would get similar situations there. And there are enough rules to quickly draw stalemates as well.
PDDs blocking Locust and no Army moving would be a draw after 3 waves of Locust if it was Chess and nothing else happened with the armies. The Chess rules forces activity, while you still can play for a draw if you are behind you have to do something to get there not sit there and force the opponent to sacrifice a piece in order to get the game going again.
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The SH has to be redesigned or something... as is, it's the most boring unit in the game and is the cause of many boring games.
If they won't fix that, then they should try some of the community's suggestions.
Abduction immunity for Broodlord sounds good. (most practical vs SH camper)
Changing spore dmg to +30 vs bio light also seems good.
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On April 20 2014 14:41 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 13:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 20 2014 12:28 tomastaz wrote:
Apparently archons work pretty well In ZvZ? But out of curiosity, is it really that impossible to break a turtling swarmhost/ spore army in ZvZ? I don't play Zerg so I have no experience with it, but I'd think if it became clear that your opponent was never going to do anything, you'd slowly trade out your army for the perfect unit composition, take the map, and even trade somewhat unfavorably because you have a massive resource and army advantage. Just slowly starve him out o.O Yes there is a situation late game ZvZ where neither player can win the game anymore because viper abducts make it so you cannot use broods since they will be abducted into spores which kill them very fast with the +damage vs light. It does not happen too often, but it is possible to force this situation if you are good enough in ZvZ. It's not the player's faults, or tournament organizer's faults that the game can go to stalemates like this...it's blizzard's fault for not addressing swarmhost stalemate issues in general. It's a bit ludicrous that miniraiser was given a loss for playing professionally and choosing the best option available at the time to him as a player - which was to go for a draw. It's not his fault the game is like this. It's not anyone's but blizzard's, and the worst thing is they've known about this for a while, but unless enough people make an uproar about this stuff they don't seem to do anything in any meaningful time span. Previously there was a bug where opponent's vipers could not target your units if you self shift-queued your own viper abducts onto your units...but that was not part of balance for this ZvZ lategame scenario, it was simply an abusable in-game bug. Swarmhosts in general should have been addressed a while ago...redesigned, or removed imo.
Miniraiser joins tournament that explicitly states you cannot play for a draw. Plays for a draw.
Sad day for him. Deserved punishment for wasting EVERYONE's time. No one's fault but his own, maybe he should actually read the fine print or learn how to play next time.
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On April 20 2014 23:47 29 fps wrote:
The SH Has to be redesigned or something... as is, it's the most boring unit in the game and is the cause of many boring games.
If they won't fix that, then they should Try some of the community's suggestions.
Abduction immunity for Broodlord sounds good. (most practical vs SH camper)
Changing spore dmg to +30 vs Bio Light also seems good.
Why not simply make a Locust wave cost something tiny (e.g. 5 minerals)?
It was the decision made to make the carrier and the reaver balanced in BW. (In SCII the carrier just sux though  )
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I can't believe people are this ignorant.
How is playing for a draw in an unwinnable position bad sportsmanship? It's fucking good play. How do you not understand the fact that going for a re-game in an unwinnable position is a +eV decision.
As for the actual "rule":
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html
Is this ban "discrete"? No.
Is this ban "warranted"? No.
Is this ban "enforceable?" Probably
Is this a stupid fucking rule? Yes. If this becomes a problem to the point that it hinders tournaments, then clearly SC2 is not a good competitive game. Hopefully Blizzard will either fix it, or we should abandon it for something better. (I highly doubt that will be the case though, because for some reason proleague ZvZ's (top level players) don't seem to run into this).
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On April 21 2014 00:18 Kashll wrote:I can't believe people are this ignorant. How is playing for a draw in an unwinnable position bad sportsmanship? It's fucking good play. How do you not understand the fact that going for a re-game in an unwinnable position is a +eV decision. As for the actual "rule": http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.htmlhttp://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.htmlIs this ban "discrete"? No. Is this ban "warranted"? No. Is this ban "enforceable?" Probably Is this a stupid fucking rule? Yes. If this becomes a problem to the point that it hinders tournaments, then clearly SC2 is not a good competitive game. Hopefully Blizzard will either fix it, or we should abandon it for something better. (I highly doubt that will be the case though, because for some reason proleague ZvZ's (top level players) don't seem to run into this).
I hope you'll have to organize a tournament one day and have to delay everything for 4 hours because of a forced draw.
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I hope Blizzard realize that HotS fails to show entertainment/great games than ever before. Finally a tournament call it too that something is wrong with this game.
Blizzard needs to stop balance it, many units (SH+ Zerg T3 + Protoss T3) need a new design.
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Playing for a draw maybe a valid strategy in other sports but they also have a ways to decide a winner afterwards etc penalty shots in football or sudden dead maybe they should coin flip in starcraft after draws that should teach people a lesson 
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I guess something like this has to happpen so blizzard wakes the fuck up...
It really annoys the shit out of me how long it takes blizzard to do something about a obviously broken thing.
AND its not even the first time they take their time ... metalopolis closeposition anyone?
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On April 21 2014 00:18 Kashll wrote:I can't believe people are this ignorant. How is playing for a draw in an unwinnable position bad sportsmanship? It's fucking good play. How do you not understand the fact that going for a re-game in an unwinnable position is a +eV decision. As for the actual "rule": http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.htmlhttp://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.htmlIs this ban "discrete"? No. Is this ban "warranted"? No. Is this ban "enforceable?" Probably Is this a stupid fucking rule? Yes. If this becomes a problem to the point that it hinders tournaments, then clearly SC2 is not a good competitive game. Hopefully Blizzard will either fix it, or we should abandon it for something better. (I highly doubt that will be the case though, because for some reason proleague ZvZ's (top level players) don't seem to run into this).
Oh cool, we found someone who read Sirlin once and now thinks he is an expert in progaming and tournament organization.
I was hoping we'd see one of those in the wild at some point, I've only heard about them in fairytales.
So basically you are regurgitating someone else's opinion without any consideration as to the context. Sirlins website is not the holy gospel of eSports nor does it apply to absolutely every situation. When you are playing in a tournament, particularly one whose games have an indeterminate length and the ability to run super long (which fighting games don't by the way so you can immediately disregard some of what Sirlin argues), the schedule is king. There will be flexibility, there always has to be to make that work, however if the tournament massively overruns, you are compromising the entire event and all the players participating in it. I'm willing to bet the vast majority of SC2 tournaments have measures in place to deal with this, they simply haven't had to utilize them, with the exception of Dreamhack who has resorted to coinflips to sort this out when the schedule had to be maintained. Blizzard have designed a god-forsaken terrible unit that causes this kind of stuff to happen. These games did not occur prior to the introduction of the swarm host. One of the longest Wings of Liberty games was Boxer vs Rain, if you can believe that. Now this 3+ hour bullshit can happen (oh hey turns out infinite free units is a terrible mechanic, who knew). Tournaments must now adapt to the possibility that this might happen and where necessary take steps to prevent players from deliberately and knowingly fucking up the entire event.
iSeries is the longest running eSports tournament series in the UK. They have operated many hundreds of tournaments for all manner, they know what they are doing. This was clearly the right call in this situation and if you go into an event knowing the rules and then break them anyway, you deserve the consequences of your actions.
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On April 19 2014 23:34 Squat wrote:
That is one dumbest things I've heard so far this year. Seriously, that is completely fucking retarded. This takes any credibility of the tournament and craps all over it.
What's next? People don't like all ins and FF, ban sentries! Mech turtle is stupid, ban raven! You can't run a tournament like that.
Did you even read the post? They did not ban SH........ Try reading a post before going all crazy with your opinion. They have the option to award one player the win if they felt the other player was deliberately going for the draw instead of trying to win the game.
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They had the right according to their own rules, but I really dislike the rule to begin with. If you can't win the game (or have a very slim chance), "deliberately" going for the draw is the right play. I would like it better if they decided a draw and a regame.
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On April 21 2014 01:50 Breavman wrote:
They had the right according to their own rules, but I really dislike the rule to begin with. If you can't win the game (or have a very slim chance), "deliberately" going for the draw is the right play. I would like it better if they decided a draw and a regame.
Even if they regamed once after an hour of game time and he did the same shit again. It was three hours for 1 game before the admins gave the win to the player who was playing to end the game, not wait for his opponent to die of old age.
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My honest opinion:
1. The rule is kinda dumb (since stalemate is a part of the game, even if some of the players/viewers may not like it).
2. But, since it's THEIR tournament, they have the right to have their own rules (yeah, even if it's a dumb rule).
3. Players themselves choose to enter tournament or not, if they do enter, please follow the rules (even if it's a dumb one).
4. The player don't know/follow a rule (even if it's a dumb one), then it's his/her own fault and admins have the right to punish the player for it.
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On April 21 2014 01:27 ZenMeng wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 23:34 Squat wrote:
That is one dumbest things I've heard so far this year. Seriously, that is completely fucking retarded. This takes any credibility of the tournament and craps all over it.
What's next? People don't like all ins and FF, ban sentries! Mech turtle is stupid, ban raven! You can't run a tournament like that. Did you even read the post? They did not ban SH........ Try reading a post before going all crazy with your opinion. They have the option to award one player the win if they felt the other player was deliberately going for the draw instead of trying to win the game.
But that requires effort! We can't have that now, can we? Knee jerk reactions only!
On topic, I think this is entirely reasonable of the tournament. Miniraser clearly had this whole "If I can't win, neither can he" mentality, and had they kept doing regames, the tournament would have been delayed for many more hours. We can't accept that kind of mentality. If you lose, accept your loss. If a Terran, upon losing, lifted all their buildings into the corner with some vikings and ravens and as a result dragged the game out it would be highly frowned upon and be considered bad sportsmanship. This is no different. Heck this is worse, because at least you could chip away units in the Terran situation. This is all free units and static defence, so any attacks done would not actually do anything.
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On April 21 2014 01:27 ZenMeng wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 23:34 Squat wrote:
That is one dumbest things I've heard so far this year. Seriously, that is completely fucking retarded. This takes any credibility of the tournament and craps all over it.
What's next? People don't like all ins and FF, ban sentries! Mech turtle is stupid, ban raven! You can't run a tournament like that. Did you even read the post? They did not ban SH........ Try reading a post before going all crazy with your opinion. They have the option to award one player the win if they felt the other player was deliberately going for the draw instead of trying to win the game.
You guys need to cut the early posters some slack. They were working off misinformation in the original post. It was later learned that SH were not actually banned
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On April 21 2014 02:06 FroZeN.Broken wrote:
My honest opinion:
1. The rule is kinda dumb (since stalemate is a part of the game, even if some of the players/viewers may not like it).
2. But, since it's THEIR tournament, they have the right to have their own rules (yeah, even if it's a dumb rule).
3. Players themselves choose to enter tournament or not, if they do enter, please follow the rules (even if it's a dumb one).
4. The player don't know/follow a rule (even if it's a dumb one), then it's his/her own fault and admins have the right to punish the player for it.
Good thing that it is not a dumb rule to not want the schedule to be delayed for several hours because of uncompetetiveness then
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EPT
