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On April 20 2014 13:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:In ZvZ? But out of curiosity, is it really that impossible to break a turtling swarmhost/ spore army in ZvZ? I don't play Zerg so I have no experience with it, but I'd think if it became clear that your opponent was never going to do anything, you'd slowly trade out your army for the perfect unit composition, take the map, and even trade somewhat unfavorably because you have a massive resource and army advantage. Just slowly starve him out o.O
Snute posted on page 8 or 9 - said Vipers made it impossible to siege down, and there's not really a good way to break a main ramp that's covered in locusts
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4713 Posts
On April 20 2014 13:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:In ZvZ? But out of curiosity, is it really that impossible to break a turtling swarmhost/ spore army in ZvZ? I don't play Zerg so I have no experience with it, but I'd think if it became clear that your opponent was never going to do anything, you'd slowly trade out your army for the perfect unit composition, take the map, and even trade somewhat unfavorably because you have a massive resource and army advantage. Just slowly starve him out o.O
There is no good counter composition in ZvZ. You can't go any ground base composition against SH once they reach a critical mass, they just trade to cost efficiently. You can try to bum rush the SH by destroying the locust quickly with banes, but that only works in small numbers, once SH reach a big enough mass and in a appropriate choke the banes will never connect.
You can't switch into air either because spores destroy any biological air. Mutas would just get instantly obliterated, if you don't believe me watch Revival vs Byul from this past season of WCS AM. And BL don't work either, they have only 9.5 range, abduct is 9 range and they run the same problem as mutas, once they are in range they get destroyed by spores.
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I don't like the way people ignore the impact that maps and the format have on this issue.
16 bases maps with free naturals and 3rds, obviously will bring very long games.
bw was very healthy with bo1, but in sc2 bo1 is a tabu.
so instead of make a bo1 format, or bring a different map pool, better just make a subjective way to finish a game.
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On April 20 2014 13:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:In ZvZ? But out of curiosity, is it really that impossible to break a turtling swarmhost/ spore army in ZvZ? I don't play Zerg so I have no experience with it, but I'd think if it became clear that your opponent was never going to do anything, you'd slowly trade out your army for the perfect unit composition, take the map, and even trade somewhat unfavorably because you have a massive resource and army advantage. Just slowly starve him out o.O
Yes there is a situation late game ZvZ where neither player can win the game anymore because viper abducts make it so you cannot use broods since they will be abducted into spores which kill them very fast with the +damage vs light.
It does not happen too often, but it is possible to force this situation if you are good enough in ZvZ.
It's not the player's faults, or tournament organizer's faults that the game can go to stalemates like this...it's blizzard's fault for not addressing swarmhost stalemate issues in general. It's a bit ludicrous that miniraiser was given a loss for playing professionally and choosing the best option available at the time to him as a player - which was to go for a draw.
It's not his fault the game is like this. It's not anyone's but blizzard's, and the worst thing is they've known about this for a while, but unless enough people make an uproar about this stuff they don't seem to do anything in any meaningful time span.
Previously there was a bug where opponent's vipers could not target your units if you self shift-queued your own viper abducts onto your units...but that was not part of balance for this ZvZ lategame scenario, it was simply an abusable in-game bug.
Swarmhosts in general should have been addressed a while ago...redesigned, or removed imo.
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I'm just curious if people would support Locusts not getting upgrades just like how Infested Terran's no longer get upgrades.
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On April 20 2014 15:50 Orcasgt24 wrote:
I'm just curious if people would support Locusts not getting upgrades just like how Infested Terran's no longer get upgrades.
No coz its spawning free units until world destroys..
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As a chess player I find this sad. Stalemates in chess are way more interesting than in sc2 though...
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Remove/nerf enduring locusts upgrade. Its the real problem.
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Don't count on Blizzard changing anything. In WC3 it took them years to nerf stuff like exp tome and raider ensnare, and by the time that happened, the game was already dead. I think the best we can hope for is another game company developing an RTS we can actually play.
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I can´t decide wether I should laugh or cry about the fail of swarmhosts, and their consequences in SC2 e-sports... 
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On April 20 2014 17:10 Emerson_H wrote:
Don't count on Blizzard changing anything. In WC3 it took them years to nerf stuff like exp tome and raider ensnare, and by the time that happened, the game was already dead. I think the best we can hope for is another game company developing an RTS we can actually play.
I don't mean to be rude, but could we please stop posting this type of zero effort whine posts? Yes, I know Blizzard can be slow with fixing obvious problems, but this type of overdramatic, self-victimizing "Alas, Blizzard cares not for e-sports, our effort is for naught"-posts serve no purpose. They don't contribute anything, they don't lead anywhere. The game has had so many problems since the release of WoL, and Blizzard have fixed most of them. They will get to this as well, sooner or later. Being angry about Swarm Hosts is perfectly reasonable, but try to be a bit more constructive, please.
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We really should get rid of units that spawn free units. Neither it's skillful nor exciting.
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On April 20 2014 02:54 illidanx wrote:
Playing for stalemate is a valid strategy and it is very satisfying when it results in nerd rages.
Even more satisying when someone gets kicked from the tournament for doing it.
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On April 20 2014 03:01 Waise wrote:
i don't understnad people talking about the timing concerns. if it's just a timing/respect for other players thing, why not instantly rule another regame when the admins feel it's going toward another stalemate? it's a strategy game and one player has to be willing/able to push a victory for a victory to occur.
Erm, that'd take more TIME.
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I think in this scenario, giving the win is valid due to it holding up the entire tournament. I understand that there's no such thing as economic or map control victory in SCII, but because of how HotS ZvZ was designed, without absolutely unlimited resources, it would be impossible to break that. While Protoss and terran given massive resource banks can tailor comps to break the turtle, Zerg doesn't have that option. Because the rule was in place before the tournament began, I think the admins made the right call.
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On April 20 2014 00:03 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 00:02 Wardi wrote:Players can either
A) Blinding cloud + baneling bomb vs the 1base spore swarmhost save, or if leading player cant afford this go for:
B) Agree to a re-game as soon as possible, you know even better than admins when stuff are gonna get bonkers so dont make it more difficult than it has to be
On blizzard's end it would probably make sense to implement:
- Brood Lords immune to abducts (ultralisk was already hotfixed, muta was "kind of hotfixed", so why not.
- Spores nerfed vs non-light Zerg units. change spore bonus from +30 dmg vs biological into +30 dmg vs biological light. Corruptors, overlords and brood lords take too much damage as it is now.
- A more extreme change: Allow for abduction(incl. uproot) of spore and spine crawlers by vipers?
As stupid as it may sound the current ZvZ endgame would benefit from returning to the WoL situation. It had way more depth than the current SH/spore/viper.
The player who was ahead in this situation had no gas remaining. They did re-game and in the re-game Miniraser did the same, made Swarm Hosts and pulled into his main to force another stalemate. Don't know what you do then. I fail to see how it's different from what terrans do in TvP. If your opponent has no resources to kill your floating buildings, will he be awarded a win at i51 regardless?
Because Terran would salvage a lost game and go for a draw/rare win with cloakshees/rebuilding/medivac harrass.
Miniraser just decided he was the worse player and went for the draw.
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Make a billion overlord
load some of them with bane
Send the empty one first so they tank spore damage
Then baneling bomb swarmhost
new meta.
fukin zerg players so unimaginative.
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Make a billion overlord
load some of them with bane
Send the empty one first so they tank spore damage
Then baneling bomb swarmhost
new meta.
fukin zerg players so unimaginative.
I actually thought of this aswell, it's very expensive, but if you truly have the entirety of the map.
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i dont see why people argue that playing for the stalemates valid, the rules clearly stated that playing for the stalemate will result in being given a loss :L and pull back into the main and turtle on swarm-hosts is literally giving up any chance of victory..
that being said swarm hosts are a terrible unit design wise( i say that as a zerg),and they lead to such boring games, worse still is that people are beginning to realise the fact they have no ground based zerg counter+ viper spore support results in unloseable games
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On April 20 2014 20:40 Enigmasc wrote:
i dont see why people argue that playing for the stalemates valid, the rules clearly stated that playing for the stalemate will result in being given a loss :L and pull back into the main and turtle on swarm-hosts is literally giving up any chance of victory..
that being said swarm hosts are a terrible unit design wise( i say that as a zerg),and they lead to such boring games, worse still is that people are beginning to realise the fact they have no ground based zerg counter+ viper spore support results in unloseable games
You can build your own vipers to either catch their vipers or to neutralize their spores.
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EPT
