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On April 20 2014 10:01 ejozl wrote: I'm sorry to say, but if he cannot force the checkmate, it's a draw and a coin flip is more fair.
A coin flip isn't more fair, because many viewers, players, and Blizzard agree that this kind of Swarmhost play should not be possible. It's an unhappy accident that it is possible in the first place. Think of it like a bug that Blizzard doesn't know how to patch without affecting the Swarmhost's other functions.
Miniraser is abusing the fact that there's no easy way to redesign the unit without changing up the MUs. Even so, because it's a part of the game it's given enough lenience that he got away with one and a half stupid games of it. But not two.
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Who cares about facts when there are partisan points to be had?!
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Miniraser is abusing the fact that there's no easy way to redesign the unit without changing up the MUs. Even so, because it's a part of the game it's given enough lenience that he got away with one and a half stupid games of it. But not two. He's simply using the tools at his disposal. Blizzard also stated they wanted to fix Broodlord/Infestor in WoL, doesn't mean we can go in and say their wins don't count or give them losses as we see fit.
If it was a final, it would've been epic and this rule wouldn't have been enforced, if it was an even lesser known player taking the map vs a turtling JaeDong, trying to force a stalemate, it would've also been different. It discredits the tournament as players are not being equally treated.
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On April 20 2014 10:08 Jerubaal wrote:
Who cares about facts when there are partisan points to be had?!
Get the pitchforks, there's a witchuntin to be done.
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On April 20 2014 08:53 GuitarBizarre wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 07:10 maartendq wrote:On April 20 2014 07:06 mtn wrote:On April 20 2014 06:59 maartendq wrote:On April 20 2014 06:37 SlixSC wrote:On April 20 2014 06:30 maartendq wrote:On April 20 2014 05:58 SlixSC wrote:On April 20 2014 05:56 maartendq wrote:
If you purposely withdraw your whole army to your main with only the intent of forcing a draw, you deserve to lose. What you are saying is actually a contradiction in terms. "If you play for a draw and are in a position in which you cannot possibly lose... you effectively lost the game". It's actual gibberish, I'm sorry. On April 20 2014 05:56 maartendq wrote:
If you purposely withdraw your whole army to your main with only the intent of forcing a draw, you deserve to lose. No, by definition you don't deserve to lose. If you put yourself into a situation in which neither your opponent nor you can win/lose the game respectively, then you and your opponent are both in the exact same tie situation. In no way does it follow from that, that one of the two deserves to lose... because one of the players has to much pride to admit he was bested (yes, being forced to hole up in your main with no chance or intention to get out counts as being bested). No, it doesn't. Go ahead, load up SC2 right now, do exactly that and see if the game actually ends in a draw or a loss for you and then get back at me. It's a tournament. The organisers decide the rules, not the game. Referees are there to enforce the rules. If one of those rules states that forcing a draw is not allowed, then it's not allowed. Plain and simple. It's like Judo: you lose points and can even end up disqualified if you do not show the will to fight to win. Tournaments have got schedules to stick to as well. They employ a lot of people who probably don't want to work hours overtime just because one person's bad sportmanship. If you know you can't win anymore save through very stupid and thus extremely unlikely mistake from your opponent, you type "gg" and tap out. You do not go hunker down with Swarm Hosts and Spores, or fly your buildings to some corner of the map (it still surprises me that the latter is still not fixed yet). Trying to force a draw out like that is on the same level as knowing you have lost a chess game, but deciding to still use all the time you have left on your game clock (which can sometimes be up to an hour or more). You'll lose eventually, but you'll have wasted everyone's time and made fool out of yourself. Yet did he do anything that was considered cheating? Was he maphacking? This is just silly. People didn't give Idra loses when he was starting playing the game from 14th minute mark, or Boxer that was rushing 3 games in a row with bunkers. This "LOSS" is the weirdest, the most idiotic thing I saw in my life. Tournament shouldn't decide for the player what builds the player should choose and play. On the other hand they should have some kind of a LIMIT on how long the game should go on for, and just restart the game and start fresh. NOT punish players for playing in their tournaments like that. He violated one of the tournament rules, which caused him to lose that game. Doesn't matter if that he did not cheat, the organisers made the rules, referees enforce them. Starting fresh every time a game reaches a certain limit will just enforce this kind of stalling behaviour, and will probably result in a bo3 taking about three hours to conclude. According to Reddit, it took 3 hours to conclude the Bo1, let alone the Bo3. "it was actually 4 hours behind because of that series, game 1 was 2 hours, which was replayed, then the replay took another hour, meaning 3 hours for just game 1 of the first round of the bracket, every other game had been played and finished up to the winner bracket final which could be before game 1 finished"
Are you dead serious, a bo1 took 3 hours? If the kid was drawing the matchs out on purpose, just because he refused to gg or take a risk to try and win, he gets DQed.
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This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of and automatically makes it so I will never watch this tournament. A player should never be given a loss unless they actually lost. If the other player was actually that far ahead or that much better he could have figured out a way to kill him. This would never happen with any korean zerg vs miniraiser. The other player wasn't actually better if he couldn't kill him and did not deserve to win.
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On April 20 2014 10:36 JJH777 wrote:
This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of and automatically makes it so I will never watch this tournament. A player should never be given a loss unless they actually lost. If the other player was actually that far ahead or that much better he could have figured out a way to kill him. This would never happen with any korean zerg vs miniraiser. The other player wasn't actually better if he couldn't kill him and did not deserve to win.
So the event is never supposed to end? I mean, it appears they regamed one time and the same thing happened? At some point the bracket needs to move forward.
Maybe a coin flip? I hear those solve problems.
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On April 20 2014 10:26 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +Miniraser is abusing the fact that there's no easy way to redesign the unit without changing up the MUs. Even so, because it's a part of the game it's given enough lenience that he got away with one and a half stupid games of it. But not two. He's simply using the tools at his disposal. Blizzard also stated they wanted to fix Broodlord/Infestor in WoL, doesn't mean we can go in and say their wins don't count or give them losses as we see fit.
And bugs are tools at a player's disposal, too. You've never heard of a player getting disqualified from a tournament for abusing bugs which are plainly in the game ripe for someone to exploit?
This isn't rocket science. If you play a Swarmhost style designed to create a stalemate, or designed to create a very low probability of a victory for you and an overwhelming possibility of a stalemate, win or lose within two hours. Or don't do it two games in a row. It's taken a year since HOTS's release for a single player to be disqualified, obviously it isn't difficult to not get disqualified as long as you're not a complete tool.
If it was a final, it would've been epic and this rule wouldn't have been enforced, if it was an even lesser known player taking the map vs a turtling JaeDong, trying to force a stalemate, it would've also been different. It discredits the tournament as players are not being equally treated.
Uh, considering how many people tuned out for the Roro vs. Symbol GSL final, and loathe Roro to this day for taking that season following what was actually a pretty entertaining set of BL/Infestor games, as far as those go, I very seriously doubt your contention that 3 hours of SH turtle into a score of 0-0 in a BO7 meaning 7 games minimum still remain would have been received as anything but utter trash and gained the players anything but droves of anti-fans.
I also don't put much stock into your speculation that Jaedong would have been treated differently.
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On April 20 2014 10:47 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 10:26 ejozl wrote:Miniraser is abusing the fact that there's no easy way to redesign the unit without changing up the MUs. Even so, because it's a part of the game it's given enough lenience that he got away with one and a half stupid games of it. But not two. He's simply using the tools at his disposal. Blizzard also stated they wanted to fix Broodlord/Infestor in WoL, doesn't mean we can go in and say their wins don't count or give them losses as we see fit. And bugs are tools at a player's disposal, too. You've never heard of a player getting disqualified from a tournament for abusing bugs which are plainly in the game ripe for someone to exploit? This isn't rocket science. If you play a Swarmhost style designed to create a stalemate, or designed to create a very low probability of a victory for you and an overwhelming possibility of a stalemate, win or lose within two hours. Or don't do it two games in a row. It's taken a year since HOTS's release for a single player to be disqualified, obviously it isn't difficult to not get disqualified as long as you're not a complete tool. Show nested quote +If it was a final, it would've been epic and this rule wouldn't have been enforced, if it was an even lesser known player taking the map vs a turtling JaeDong, trying to force a stalemate, it would've also been different. It discredits the tournament as players are not being equally treated. Uh, considering how many people tuned out for the Roro vs. Symbol GSL final, and loathe Roro to this day for taking that season following what was actually a pretty entertaining set of BL/Infestor games, as far as those go, I very seriously doubt your contention that 3 hours of SH turtle into a score of 0-0 in a BO7 meaning 7 games minimum still remain would have been received as anything but utter trash and gained the players anything but droves of anti-fans. I also don't put much stock into your speculation that Jaedong would have been treated differently.
One clarification - he wasn't disqualified based on this. He went down 0-1 in a Bo3. He then ling bane allinned the next game and lost within ~15 mins.
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On April 20 2014 11:05 GuitarBizarre wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 10:47 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 20 2014 10:26 ejozl wrote:Miniraser is abusing the fact that there's no easy way to redesign the unit without changing up the MUs. Even so, because it's a part of the game it's given enough lenience that he got away with one and a half stupid games of it. But not two. He's simply using the tools at his disposal. Blizzard also stated they wanted to fix Broodlord/Infestor in WoL, doesn't mean we can go in and say their wins don't count or give them losses as we see fit. And bugs are tools at a player's disposal, too. You've never heard of a player getting disqualified from a tournament for abusing bugs which are plainly in the game ripe for someone to exploit? This isn't rocket science. If you play a Swarmhost style designed to create a stalemate, or designed to create a very low probability of a victory for you and an overwhelming possibility of a stalemate, win or lose within two hours. Or don't do it two games in a row. It's taken a year since HOTS's release for a single player to be disqualified, obviously it isn't difficult to not get disqualified as long as you're not a complete tool. If it was a final, it would've been epic and this rule wouldn't have been enforced, if it was an even lesser known player taking the map vs a turtling JaeDong, trying to force a stalemate, it would've also been different. It discredits the tournament as players are not being equally treated. Uh, considering how many people tuned out for the Roro vs. Symbol GSL final, and loathe Roro to this day for taking that season following what was actually a pretty entertaining set of BL/Infestor games, as far as those go, I very seriously doubt your contention that 3 hours of SH turtle into a score of 0-0 in a BO7 meaning 7 games minimum still remain would have been received as anything but utter trash and gained the players anything but droves of anti-fans. I also don't put much stock into your speculation that Jaedong would have been treated differently. One clarification - he wasn't disqualified based on this. He went down 0-1 in a Bo3. He then ling bane allinned the next game and lost within ~15 mins.
All they did was give him a single loss?! Oh, man...
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On April 20 2014 10:47 pure.Wasted wrote:
I also don't put much stock into your speculation that Jaedong would have been treated differently.
Jaedong can do no wrong in Starcraft. His fans are pretty fanatical so the fans would treat him differently for sure.
Tourney officials might also because the backlash for doing this would be amplified 100 fold. Take alot more courage to DQ Jaedong than it does to DQ Miniraiser
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blizzard change something please. Admit the problems sc2 has with its units and do something about it. Dont cower and give us that weak excuse of 'not wanting to endanger progamer careers'.
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Seriously.. people still think swarmhosts are op ...
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Apparently archons work pretty well
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if its trny rules then its his fault really.
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On April 20 2014 00:42 sixfour wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 00:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On more than one occasion in BW, there were TvT stalemates because both players had taken half the map, set up their siege tank/ goliath/ turret/ etc. lines as close as possible, and neither player was willing to move forwards (because they'd lose). So they'd draw and re-game. can't say i ever remember any of those but that's going off-topic
I did my research and there were a couple of stalemate TvTs in BW!
2003/12/13 Themarine vs silent_control
2007/7/25 iloveoov vs upmagic
2008/5/14 Sea vs Hwasin
2009/4/16 Canata vs Shine[Name]
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On April 19 2014 23:51 Liman wrote:
Will blizz take a hint?
maybe a 0.0000001% chance
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On April 20 2014 12:20 ChickaChuckWally wrote:
Seriously.. people still think swarmhosts are op ...
It's not OP it was a ZvZ it's just stupid unit design.
I like the decision by the tournament admins. Mini taser is behind, not enough to get crushed, but it is clear he's not trying to win and just going for a stalemate 2 games in a row. He deserves to lose that game.
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On April 20 2014 12:28 tomastaz wrote:
Apparently archons work pretty well
In ZvZ?
But out of curiosity, is it really that impossible to break a turtling swarmhost/ spore army in ZvZ? I don't play Zerg so I have no experience with it, but I'd think if it became clear that your opponent was never going to do anything, you'd slowly trade out your army for the perfect unit composition, take the map, and even trade somewhat unfavorably because you have a massive resource and army advantage. Just slowly starve him out o.O
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EPT
