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i51 gives Miniraser loss for playing for stalemate - Page 18

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Coppii
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway57 Posts
April 20 2014 17:40 GMT
#341
truly retarded..
Ad astra per aspera
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-20 17:55:24
April 20 2014 17:55 GMT
#342
I don't think there should be a penalty for consciously forcing a stalemate. It's part of the game if your opponent is unable to prevent such a thing then he doesn't deserve the win and it should count as a tie. Whether it's SH stalemate, or preventing air production from opponents and flying buildings into the corner of the map with a supply deficit, etc.
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Gullis
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden740 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-20 20:58:58
April 20 2014 18:21 GMT
#343
after 2h draw and the rematch going the same I can't feel like the organizers are to blame here. They have a schedule to keep and after potentially 4 hour with zero progress, what are they gonna do? Giving the win to the more dominate player is imo better than doing a coin flip but each to their own I guess..

Blizzard is to blame because they haven't addressed swarm hosts already.

edit
assuming they did a regame after first draw?
I would rather eat than see my children starve.
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
April 20 2014 18:26 GMT
#344
Shouldnt a draw cause a fucking draw? Absurd ruling.
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
April 20 2014 19:07 GMT
#345
Dont blame the players and tournament organizers, blame the game.
sorry for dem one liners
KatatoniK
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
United Kingdom978 Posts
April 20 2014 19:24 GMT
#346
On April 21 2014 03:26 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Shouldnt a draw cause a fucking draw? Absurd ruling.


An "absurd ruling" that stops people forcing draws after hour long stalemates over and over and leading to the rest of the tournament to fall massively behind schedule and is highly likely to be immensely boring and eventually going to piss the crowd off? This is a tournament that can't keep having one player continuously do shit like that, it's not like it takes place in their own studio ala ESL and DH tournaments. They rent that location for a certain period of time, Miniraser had already forced a regame once after 2 hours, then tried to force another after yet another hour. You really think they had to time to keep dealing with that shit after 1 game took 3 hours with no outcome whatsoever?
Flying on the Jin Air hype plane. Lets go Maru, Rogue, sOs and the handsome CJ herO
DBS
Profile Joined July 2012
515 Posts
April 20 2014 19:31 GMT
#347
I think the rules is stupid, but understandable from a more practical standpoint. Much more reasonable than banning the unit
"a pitchfork is for hay. a trident is for killing bitches." -djwheat
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
April 20 2014 19:45 GMT
#348
On April 21 2014 04:24 KatatoniK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2014 03:26 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Shouldnt a draw cause a fucking draw? Absurd ruling.


An "absurd ruling" that stops people forcing draws after hour long stalemates over and over and leading to the rest of the tournament to fall massively behind schedule and is highly likely to be immensely boring and eventually going to piss the crowd off? This is a tournament that can't keep having one player continuously do shit like that, it's not like it takes place in their own studio ala ESL and DH tournaments. They rent that location for a certain period of time, Miniraser had already forced a regame once after 2 hours, then tried to force another after yet another hour. You really think they had to time to keep dealing with that shit after 1 game took 3 hours with no outcome whatsoever?
The reality is, its a competition. If you cant win, the only excusable action is to push for a draw, which has happened countless times in sc2 as well as broodwar. People play for draws all the time, and sometimes it makes the schedule fucked up. Thats a small fucking price to pay then to have judges rule by fiat on who wins, rather than you know, who actually won.

Competition being long, is obviously preferable to it being farcical. Which it now is.
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
riyanme
Profile Joined September 2010
Philippines940 Posts
April 20 2014 19:47 GMT
#349
i guess there nothing much to talk here...
we are all going in circles

mini failed to follow the absurd rule and got wasted, highly ridiculous rule but legitimate (see rules)
we share his sentiment in our own different point of views
blaming SH, the players, organizers, game and blizz


bliz: should do something; either make radical changes or be a deaf
organisers: should prepare a better ruling if this 'event' occurs; a sane, fair, logical course of action
players: should read and follow the rules; should make considerations on the viewers, sponsors and self image
netizens: reserves the right to whine, bash and etc., but we have to respect what been decided regardless of our opinions
-
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 20 2014 20:25 GMT
#350
On April 21 2014 04:07 NukeD wrote:
Dont blame the players and tournament organizers, blame the game.

No, I think I am going to blame the player who decided to drag out every game once he realized that he couldn't win.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3372 Posts
April 20 2014 20:36 GMT
#351

An "absurd ruling" that stops people forcing draws after hour long stalemates over and over and leading to the rest of the tournament to fall massively behind schedule and is highly likely to be immensely boring and eventually going to piss the crowd off?

It stops it, but both players equally deserve to go on, hence the draw.
Should a consistently winning player, who only cannon rush, be punished for bringing the tournament ahead of schedule? winning or drawing, doesn't really make a difference since both of them aren't a loss.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
MoonfireSpam
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1153 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-20 20:39:32
April 20 2014 20:38 GMT
#352
Sounds like a good decision. Sounds like a situation where he couldn't win so just turtled up. Sortof like if a boxer was getting beaten up then hugged the ringpost so the opponent could only land illegal shots to the back.

Quite a few sports have rules to prevent that sort of behaviour (shot clocks, points for aggression, timewasting rules).
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 20 2014 20:40 GMT
#353
On April 21 2014 05:38 MoonfireSpam wrote:
Sounds like a good decision. Sounds like a situation where he couldn't win so just turtled up. Sortof like if a boxer was getting beaten up then hugged the ringpost so the opponent could only land illegal shots to the back.

Quite a few sports have rules to prevent that sort of behaviour (shot clocks, points for aggression, timewasting rules).

How dare you apply logic to this discussion or rational thought? I thought we were blaming Blizzard for everything?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
April 20 2014 20:41 GMT
#354
On April 21 2014 05:25 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2014 04:07 NukeD wrote:
Dont blame the players and tournament organizers, blame the game.

No, I think I am going to blame the player who decided to drag out every game once he realized that he couldn't win.

Such an overlooked point
parkin
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
1080 Posts
April 20 2014 20:56 GMT
#355
Retarded rule, what an unprofessional joke tournament.
mostly harmless
Yorbon
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands4272 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-20 21:31:10
April 20 2014 21:25 GMT
#356
Given the rule was there, i guess calling on it was justified. I don't like the rule, but it's very understandable from an organisational point of view.

Fundamentally, i think there's nothing wrong with going for a draw, even if intentional. For a spectator sport/game, the real problem is imo the time it takes to decide it. Especially the situations where one is mining and the other isnt, and the mining person can't defeat the other for a longer period of time, are very unsatisfactory for organizers, for viewers and for players. Personally, i look at blizzard for fixing that this is even a possibility. I don't know how exactly, but if these (specifically these kind of) stalemates become a structural problem, we can't really do anything else but turn to them. Secondly, although only slightly related to this case, one can lessen the delay by draws by counting the draws as 0.5 points for each player, instead of a regame. The player who has an lead of at least 1 point at the end of game X in a BOX wins. For last games ending in a draw, this obviously doesnt make a difference. But if 2 players would draw in game 1 and 2, the person winning game 3 wins the series. This will only lessen the time loss, it won't solve the underlying problem indeed.

It's pretty sad things turned out this way. ):

edit: I see people comparing sc2 to regular sports, for example plansix and his comparison with boxing. I think that such a rule should be implemented by blizzard, to ensure uniform ruling in all tournaments. The tournament rule is very understandable, but imo should not be necessary. Blaming blizzard for this is not justified, but monitoring these kind of games would be a good thing to do, to avoid structural damage to entertainment value.
vult
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States9400 Posts
April 20 2014 21:48 GMT
#357
Draws in SC2 should be a rarity, but with SHvSH turtle games, draws are way too common. It's too bad that Miniraser had to resort to dragging the game out to force a draw instead of manning up for the sake of the tournament, fans, his opponent, and himself and taking the loss. Maybe more tournaments should look into absurdly long game rulings or stalemate calling, it's so boring to watch and to play.
I used to play random, but for you I play very specifically.
Kracen
Profile Joined June 2011
United Kingdom59 Posts
April 20 2014 21:51 GMT
#358
People need to accept one simple fact which cannot in anyway be overlooked: Tournaments have time limits that must be kept.
They had already spent 3 hours on one set, how much longer would it go if they did another re-game? 1 more hour? 2? maybe another forced draw happens, that is potentially another hour or so. Therefore these rules have to be in place to prevent this from happening. Those who say it isn't bad sportsmanship, well, it is, it shows blatant disrespect to the tournament admins who now have to reorganise everything in substantially less time. I feel as though I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that if a single game that was holding up the entire tournament was happening at DH, MLG, or WCS, to the point in which it is taking hours to finish due to forced draws, an admin would step in and end it one way or another.
So, people need to stop criticising Multiplay, for two reasons: One, its in their rule set, deal with it. Two, the tournament has to move on to other games so they don't run over their allotted time restriction. The problem isn't in the rule set or the ruling that was made, as these are fail safes to ensure a single match doesn't go on for longer than it should.

Now that we have that out of the way lets look at this the way it should be looked at.
The problem lies within the game design, we shouldn't be rallying against the tournament, we should be rallying against the pathetically designed unit that is the Swarm Host that allows situations like this to occur and solutions need to be presented and then forced down Blizzards throat until they actually address this long overdue issue.

The longest games used to be TvT mech versus mech into skyterran, and these were extremely rare and still only lasted about an hour and a bit at most. Now we have the potential for 2 hour+ games because as it turns out, infinite free units in a limited economy game is a very bad design.

The game needs fixing, not the rules.


TL:DR, Ruling was fair, all tournaments would of done the same, SH is broken, needs fixing by Blizzard.
Kray-sen
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
April 20 2014 21:52 GMT
#359
The logic behind the rule is understandable, but look at it this way - if tournaments left and right start collapsing because of games involving this Swarm Host bs, then maybe Blizzard will be forced to acknowledge that something is deeply wrong with the unit. Even Infestor Broodlord didn't drag games out for hours, sad that I'm pining for that of all things.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
April 20 2014 21:58 GMT
#360
SH vs SH turtle games barely ever happen at the highest level of play (which honestly, we should consider this game to be part of in the first place), yet somehow most of the people in this thread seem to be making it into an every day event. And then blame it on blizzard because everyone hates david kim.
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