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On March 13 2014 17:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 16:29 Qwerty85 wrote:
I find his answer about ZvT very strange. He doesn't think the problem is SH?
I guess there are some people who actually want to turtle behind planetary fortress and mass ravens and only then try to do something like attacking but I think that main reason we see such games is actually the SH. If zerg's economy is not crippled early in the game with helion runbys there will be hardly any timing for mech ground army to exploit. SH not only deals damage but more importantly physically blocks ground movement of units, not to mention its long range on creep. This all makes it impossible to reach zerg base because you will never be able to out DPS the locusts fast enough.
And since both sides enter into this passive game, there are no trades and fights that would cause any bigger losses than occasional unit. Combined with the easiness of obtaining 4 bases means that is all you need to get that super strong terran late game army with bc-ravens-vikings (like Mvp had vs. Firecake on Frost).
But again it all starts from SH and how ground army can't really move out against higher SH numbers. And since SH are bad in low numbers,there will always be a lot of them when zerg chooses to go for them. The fish stinks from both ends. It starts before the swarm host, which is necessary to combat tank/viking combos. You're not going to do that with with roach, hydra, ultra based play around the max. mutalisks are great but eventually the terran can stabilize against them if he wants and it would be even easier if the terran didnt have to think about defending SHs. And even when you can keep the momentum wih mutas, you still build SHs with them to prevent the Terran from just pushing his way to victory with thor/tank/viking combos. Also yes, there are players that turtle behind their PFs regardless. It's not like Zergs first take on developing a standard vs Mech was to sit behind spores and locusts forever. But that is what you have to do unless you did massive damage early on.
I didn't say the problem is exclusively in SH but saying that SH is not a problem and raven is is not an accurate assessment of the mech TvZ from David Kim, at least in my opinion.
Also I saw some zergs deal with mech without going for SH play. There are other ways to deal with mech but the problem is they are not as reliable as going into SH. For example, if you watch Innovation's or Supernova's stream, they often mech against zerg and Korean zergs often go for a muta play. So you basically can deal with it either by outmaneuvering your opponent (like with mutas) or with using your racial advantages like tech switches. On those mentioned streams I saw zergs who would go for some early roach aggression against terran when mech is still weak (and that is also a factor in mech TvZ - the fact that mech can't really move out before at least 150 supply) forcing terran into tanks and then doing muta switches etc.
I am pretty sure most zergs are happy to trade roaches for thors or tanks.
But as I said, SH is most reliable way of playing against mech. At the same time, terran mech army gets strong at around 150-160 supply, doing any pushes with a couple of tanks and thors will just get shut down easily by zerg. So by the time mech is ready to move out, zerg already has enough SH out to stop that timing (if critical damage isn't dealt to zerg early on) and then we go into that turtle and sky terran.
But blaming it on the terran and the raven and acting like all terrans choose to turtle into sky terran instead of being forced into it by game design is both unfair and wrong.
Honestly I think that nerfing SH and buffing infestor's anti-mech abilities like NP or IT would be much better because we would probably see more trades in the mid game but infestors could be a valuable addition in dealing with late game sky terran army.
Of course some sweet spot would need to be found to avoid making them as strong as they were in WoL.
I would prefer that to simply nerfing the raven as DK obviously plans if we start to see more and more long mech games.
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On March 13 2014 05:42 davidjayhawk wrote:
... the soft 3 base income cap ...
What does he mean by this? Is it the fact that Protoss and especially Terran can survive on a 3 base economy for 25+ Minutes in a game and still put out a sizeable army?
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On March 13 2014 19:05 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 17:23 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 16:29 Qwerty85 wrote:
I find his answer about ZvT very strange. He doesn't think the problem is SH?
I guess there are some people who actually want to turtle behind planetary fortress and mass ravens and only then try to do something like attacking but I think that main reason we see such games is actually the SH. If zerg's economy is not crippled early in the game with helion runbys there will be hardly any timing for mech ground army to exploit. SH not only deals damage but more importantly physically blocks ground movement of units, not to mention its long range on creep. This all makes it impossible to reach zerg base because you will never be able to out DPS the locusts fast enough.
And since both sides enter into this passive game, there are no trades and fights that would cause any bigger losses than occasional unit. Combined with the easiness of obtaining 4 bases means that is all you need to get that super strong terran late game army with bc-ravens-vikings (like Mvp had vs. Firecake on Frost).
But again it all starts from SH and how ground army can't really move out against higher SH numbers. And since SH are bad in low numbers,there will always be a lot of them when zerg chooses to go for them. The fish stinks from both ends. It starts before the swarm host, which is necessary to combat tank/viking combos. You're not going to do that with with roach, hydra, ultra based play around the max. mutalisks are great but eventually the terran can stabilize against them if he wants and it would be even easier if the terran didnt have to think about defending SHs. And even when you can keep the momentum wih mutas, you still build SHs with them to prevent the Terran from just pushing his way to victory with thor/tank/viking combos. Also yes, there are players that turtle behind their PFs regardless. It's not like Zergs first take on developing a standard vs Mech was to sit behind spores and locusts forever. But that is what you have to do unless you did massive damage early on. I didn't say the problem is exclusively in SH but saying that SH is not a problem and raven is is not an accurate assessment of the mech TvZ from David Kim, at least in my opinion. Also I saw some zergs deal with mech without going for SH play. There are other ways to deal with mech but the problem is they are not as reliable as going into SH. For example, if you watch Innovation's or Supernova's stream, they often mech against zerg and Korean zergs often go for a muta play. So you basically can deal with it either by outmaneuvering your opponent (like with mutas) or with using your racial advantages like tech switches. On those mentioned streams I saw zergs who would go for some early roach aggression against terran when mech is still weak (and that is also a factor in mech TvZ - the fact that mech can't really move out before at least 150 supply) forcing terran into tanks and then doing muta switches etc. I am pretty sure most zergs are happy to trade roaches for thors or tanks. But as I said, SH is most reliable way of playing against mech. At the same time, terran mech army gets strong at around 150-160 supply, doing any pushes with a couple of tanks and thors will just get shut down easily by zerg. So by the time mech is ready to move out, zerg already has enough SH out to stop that timing (if critical damage isn't dealt to zerg early on) and then we go into that turtle and sky terran. But blaming it on the terran and the raven and acting like all terrans choose to turtle into sky terran instead of being forced into it by game design is both unfair and wrong. Honestly I think that nerfing SH and buffing infestor's anti-mech abilities like NP or IT would be much better because we would probably see more trades in the mid game but infestors could be a valuable addition in dealing with late game sky terran army. Of course some sweet spot would need to be found to avoid making them as strong as they were in WoL. I would prefer that to simply nerfing the raven as DK obviously plans if we start to see more and more long mech games.
He is also not "just" blaming the Raven. He is saying that Terrans could move out, but massing more Ravens seems to be better for them.
And I actually agree with him. Building 10 Ravens to the rest of your Mech+Viking army may be required against an all turtled up SH-Zerg, waiting for 30 of them so you don't need any other antiair anymore is not.
I'm not saying the SH is no problem. Again, the fish stinks from both sides. But I gotta say it pisses me off when I hear all the Terran and Protoss whine about how boring it is to play against SHs and that it is that unit alone. Meanwhile the SH is the only unit that gives you a reasonable playstyle to beat a Protoss or Terran that just sits on 3-4bases and maxes and then takes another base and builds more defense and even better units.
And yes, those mutalisk strategies are viable. 100% of the time you will still see swarm hosts in those games. Remember Innovation vs Soulkey on Heavy Rain? Heavy mutalisk play from Soulkey, what did he have at home? 15swarm hosts to prevent Innovation from just crossing the map and winning. Remember the proleague match of Mvp vs RorO? Mvp was hardpressed to mine from 3bases, RorO had 5-6bases mining. Eventually Mvp decided to move out and wiped out 3bases with hardly any losses. What did the trick eventually? remaxing on 30swarm hosts.
That's what happens if you don't build SHs against Mech. The Meching player just wins when he maxes and you don't have SHs.
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david kims answers are so neutral and nothingy, its actually painful to read them all. every time he does one of these community AMA's he types so much and conveys so little.
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Game sucks, when are you losers going to move on already? Lol
Deathball A click mechanic killed this game a very long time ago. And if you haven't yet noticed, there is always something broken lol I suspect this is because the underlying mechanics of each race are broken, but who the hell cares at this point. DK you suck!
User was warned for this post
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On March 13 2014 19:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 19:05 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 13 2014 17:23 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 16:29 Qwerty85 wrote:
I find his answer about ZvT very strange. He doesn't think the problem is SH?
I guess there are some people who actually want to turtle behind planetary fortress and mass ravens and only then try to do something like attacking but I think that main reason we see such games is actually the SH. If zerg's economy is not crippled early in the game with helion runbys there will be hardly any timing for mech ground army to exploit. SH not only deals damage but more importantly physically blocks ground movement of units, not to mention its long range on creep. This all makes it impossible to reach zerg base because you will never be able to out DPS the locusts fast enough.
And since both sides enter into this passive game, there are no trades and fights that would cause any bigger losses than occasional unit. Combined with the easiness of obtaining 4 bases means that is all you need to get that super strong terran late game army with bc-ravens-vikings (like Mvp had vs. Firecake on Frost).
But again it all starts from SH and how ground army can't really move out against higher SH numbers. And since SH are bad in low numbers,there will always be a lot of them when zerg chooses to go for them. The fish stinks from both ends. It starts before the swarm host, which is necessary to combat tank/viking combos. You're not going to do that with with roach, hydra, ultra based play around the max. mutalisks are great but eventually the terran can stabilize against them if he wants and it would be even easier if the terran didnt have to think about defending SHs. And even when you can keep the momentum wih mutas, you still build SHs with them to prevent the Terran from just pushing his way to victory with thor/tank/viking combos. Also yes, there are players that turtle behind their PFs regardless. It's not like Zergs first take on developing a standard vs Mech was to sit behind spores and locusts forever. But that is what you have to do unless you did massive damage early on. I didn't say the problem is exclusively in SH but saying that SH is not a problem and raven is is not an accurate assessment of the mech TvZ from David Kim, at least in my opinion. Also I saw some zergs deal with mech without going for SH play. There are other ways to deal with mech but the problem is they are not as reliable as going into SH. For example, if you watch Innovation's or Supernova's stream, they often mech against zerg and Korean zergs often go for a muta play. So you basically can deal with it either by outmaneuvering your opponent (like with mutas) or with using your racial advantages like tech switches. On those mentioned streams I saw zergs who would go for some early roach aggression against terran when mech is still weak (and that is also a factor in mech TvZ - the fact that mech can't really move out before at least 150 supply) forcing terran into tanks and then doing muta switches etc. I am pretty sure most zergs are happy to trade roaches for thors or tanks. But as I said, SH is most reliable way of playing against mech. At the same time, terran mech army gets strong at around 150-160 supply, doing any pushes with a couple of tanks and thors will just get shut down easily by zerg. So by the time mech is ready to move out, zerg already has enough SH out to stop that timing (if critical damage isn't dealt to zerg early on) and then we go into that turtle and sky terran. But blaming it on the terran and the raven and acting like all terrans choose to turtle into sky terran instead of being forced into it by game design is both unfair and wrong. Honestly I think that nerfing SH and buffing infestor's anti-mech abilities like NP or IT would be much better because we would probably see more trades in the mid game but infestors could be a valuable addition in dealing with late game sky terran army. Of course some sweet spot would need to be found to avoid making them as strong as they were in WoL. I would prefer that to simply nerfing the raven as DK obviously plans if we start to see more and more long mech games. He is also not "just" blaming the Raven. He is saying that Terrans could move out, but massing more Ravens seems to be better for them. And I actually agree with him. Building 10 Ravens to the rest of your Mech+Viking army may be required against an all turtled up SH-Zerg, waiting for 30 of them so you don't need any other antiair anymore is not.
I am not sure when could meching terran actually move out against SH army and out DPS the locust fast enough to reach zerg base before losing expensive gas units to waves of free locusts. Tanks always need to be sieged and you need at least of 1/2 of SH numbers just to kill locusts before they do enough damage. To actually be able to cross the map and deal some real damage you would need to out DPS the locusts much faster than that which isn't possible.
Only SH game I saw recently where terran won with a mech timing was that game between Snute and Mvp on Alterzim when Mvp basically hit when Snute had only a couple of SH and the rest of supply in roaches. But in game against Firecake he never had any timing to exploit.
Mech is very weak before a certain supply is reached, apart from early game helion or helion+banshee play, you can't be out on the map and do a mech push on something like 80-100 supply because roaches would easily overwhelm that army. And then you are dead.
And I also said I agree that other choices are not reliable enough. That is why I said buffing infestor anti-mech abilities and nerfing SH would be much better for mech TvZ than nerfing the raven.
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On March 13 2014 19:47 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 19:32 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 19:05 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 13 2014 17:23 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 16:29 Qwerty85 wrote:
I find his answer about ZvT very strange. He doesn't think the problem is SH?
I guess there are some people who actually want to turtle behind planetary fortress and mass ravens and only then try to do something like attacking but I think that main reason we see such games is actually the SH. If zerg's economy is not crippled early in the game with helion runbys there will be hardly any timing for mech ground army to exploit. SH not only deals damage but more importantly physically blocks ground movement of units, not to mention its long range on creep. This all makes it impossible to reach zerg base because you will never be able to out DPS the locusts fast enough.
And since both sides enter into this passive game, there are no trades and fights that would cause any bigger losses than occasional unit. Combined with the easiness of obtaining 4 bases means that is all you need to get that super strong terran late game army with bc-ravens-vikings (like Mvp had vs. Firecake on Frost).
But again it all starts from SH and how ground army can't really move out against higher SH numbers. And since SH are bad in low numbers,there will always be a lot of them when zerg chooses to go for them. The fish stinks from both ends. It starts before the swarm host, which is necessary to combat tank/viking combos. You're not going to do that with with roach, hydra, ultra based play around the max. mutalisks are great but eventually the terran can stabilize against them if he wants and it would be even easier if the terran didnt have to think about defending SHs. And even when you can keep the momentum wih mutas, you still build SHs with them to prevent the Terran from just pushing his way to victory with thor/tank/viking combos. Also yes, there are players that turtle behind their PFs regardless. It's not like Zergs first take on developing a standard vs Mech was to sit behind spores and locusts forever. But that is what you have to do unless you did massive damage early on. I didn't say the problem is exclusively in SH but saying that SH is not a problem and raven is is not an accurate assessment of the mech TvZ from David Kim, at least in my opinion. Also I saw some zergs deal with mech without going for SH play. There are other ways to deal with mech but the problem is they are not as reliable as going into SH. For example, if you watch Innovation's or Supernova's stream, they often mech against zerg and Korean zergs often go for a muta play. So you basically can deal with it either by outmaneuvering your opponent (like with mutas) or with using your racial advantages like tech switches. On those mentioned streams I saw zergs who would go for some early roach aggression against terran when mech is still weak (and that is also a factor in mech TvZ - the fact that mech can't really move out before at least 150 supply) forcing terran into tanks and then doing muta switches etc. I am pretty sure most zergs are happy to trade roaches for thors or tanks. But as I said, SH is most reliable way of playing against mech. At the same time, terran mech army gets strong at around 150-160 supply, doing any pushes with a couple of tanks and thors will just get shut down easily by zerg. So by the time mech is ready to move out, zerg already has enough SH out to stop that timing (if critical damage isn't dealt to zerg early on) and then we go into that turtle and sky terran. But blaming it on the terran and the raven and acting like all terrans choose to turtle into sky terran instead of being forced into it by game design is both unfair and wrong. Honestly I think that nerfing SH and buffing infestor's anti-mech abilities like NP or IT would be much better because we would probably see more trades in the mid game but infestors could be a valuable addition in dealing with late game sky terran army. Of course some sweet spot would need to be found to avoid making them as strong as they were in WoL. I would prefer that to simply nerfing the raven as DK obviously plans if we start to see more and more long mech games. He is also not "just" blaming the Raven. He is saying that Terrans could move out, but massing more Ravens seems to be better for them. And I actually agree with him. Building 10 Ravens to the rest of your Mech+Viking army may be required against an all turtled up SH-Zerg, waiting for 30 of them so you don't need any other antiair anymore is not. I am not sure when could meching terran actually move out against SH army and out DPS the locust fast enough to reach zerg base before losing expensive gas units to waves of free locusts. Only SH game I saw recently where terran won with a mech timing was that game between Snute and Mvp on Alterzim when Mvp basically hit when Snute had only a couple of SH and the rest of supply in roaches. But in game against Firecake he never had any timing to exploit. Mech is very weak before a certain supply is reached, apart from early game helion or helion+banshee play, you can't be out on the map and do a mech push on something like 80-100 supply because roaches would easily overwhelm that army. And then you are dead.
Im not saying you shouldn't build Ravens or attack unmaxed (things that happen in the first 12-15mins). I'm saying you don't have to wait 30mins to attack.
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On March 13 2014 19:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 19:47 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 13 2014 19:32 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 19:05 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 13 2014 17:23 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 16:29 Qwerty85 wrote:
I find his answer about ZvT very strange. He doesn't think the problem is SH?
I guess there are some people who actually want to turtle behind planetary fortress and mass ravens and only then try to do something like attacking but I think that main reason we see such games is actually the SH. If zerg's economy is not crippled early in the game with helion runbys there will be hardly any timing for mech ground army to exploit. SH not only deals damage but more importantly physically blocks ground movement of units, not to mention its long range on creep. This all makes it impossible to reach zerg base because you will never be able to out DPS the locusts fast enough.
And since both sides enter into this passive game, there are no trades and fights that would cause any bigger losses than occasional unit. Combined with the easiness of obtaining 4 bases means that is all you need to get that super strong terran late game army with bc-ravens-vikings (like Mvp had vs. Firecake on Frost).
But again it all starts from SH and how ground army can't really move out against higher SH numbers. And since SH are bad in low numbers,there will always be a lot of them when zerg chooses to go for them. The fish stinks from both ends. It starts before the swarm host, which is necessary to combat tank/viking combos. You're not going to do that with with roach, hydra, ultra based play around the max. mutalisks are great but eventually the terran can stabilize against them if he wants and it would be even easier if the terran didnt have to think about defending SHs. And even when you can keep the momentum wih mutas, you still build SHs with them to prevent the Terran from just pushing his way to victory with thor/tank/viking combos. Also yes, there are players that turtle behind their PFs regardless. It's not like Zergs first take on developing a standard vs Mech was to sit behind spores and locusts forever. But that is what you have to do unless you did massive damage early on. I didn't say the problem is exclusively in SH but saying that SH is not a problem and raven is is not an accurate assessment of the mech TvZ from David Kim, at least in my opinion. Also I saw some zergs deal with mech without going for SH play. There are other ways to deal with mech but the problem is they are not as reliable as going into SH. For example, if you watch Innovation's or Supernova's stream, they often mech against zerg and Korean zergs often go for a muta play. So you basically can deal with it either by outmaneuvering your opponent (like with mutas) or with using your racial advantages like tech switches. On those mentioned streams I saw zergs who would go for some early roach aggression against terran when mech is still weak (and that is also a factor in mech TvZ - the fact that mech can't really move out before at least 150 supply) forcing terran into tanks and then doing muta switches etc. I am pretty sure most zergs are happy to trade roaches for thors or tanks. But as I said, SH is most reliable way of playing against mech. At the same time, terran mech army gets strong at around 150-160 supply, doing any pushes with a couple of tanks and thors will just get shut down easily by zerg. So by the time mech is ready to move out, zerg already has enough SH out to stop that timing (if critical damage isn't dealt to zerg early on) and then we go into that turtle and sky terran. But blaming it on the terran and the raven and acting like all terrans choose to turtle into sky terran instead of being forced into it by game design is both unfair and wrong. Honestly I think that nerfing SH and buffing infestor's anti-mech abilities like NP or IT would be much better because we would probably see more trades in the mid game but infestors could be a valuable addition in dealing with late game sky terran army. Of course some sweet spot would need to be found to avoid making them as strong as they were in WoL. I would prefer that to simply nerfing the raven as DK obviously plans if we start to see more and more long mech games. He is also not "just" blaming the Raven. He is saying that Terrans could move out, but massing more Ravens seems to be better for them. And I actually agree with him. Building 10 Ravens to the rest of your Mech+Viking army may be required against an all turtled up SH-Zerg, waiting for 30 of them so you don't need any other antiair anymore is not. I am not sure when could meching terran actually move out against SH army and out DPS the locust fast enough to reach zerg base before losing expensive gas units to waves of free locusts. Only SH game I saw recently where terran won with a mech timing was that game between Snute and Mvp on Alterzim when Mvp basically hit when Snute had only a couple of SH and the rest of supply in roaches. But in game against Firecake he never had any timing to exploit. Mech is very weak before a certain supply is reached, apart from early game helion or helion+banshee play, you can't be out on the map and do a mech push on something like 80-100 supply because roaches would easily overwhelm that army. And then you are dead. Im not saying you shouldn't build Ravens or attack unmaxed (things that happen in the first 12-15mins). I'm saying you don't have to wait 30mins to attack.
But there is no standard timing to exploit. Usually, when terran is ready to move out around something like 150 supply, zerg already has enough SH out. Games like Mvp vs. Snute are rare exception to the rule.
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On March 13 2014 19:54 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 19:52 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 19:47 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 13 2014 19:32 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 19:05 Qwerty85 wrote:On March 13 2014 17:23 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 16:29 Qwerty85 wrote:
I find his answer about ZvT very strange. He doesn't think the problem is SH?
I guess there are some people who actually want to turtle behind planetary fortress and mass ravens and only then try to do something like attacking but I think that main reason we see such games is actually the SH. If zerg's economy is not crippled early in the game with helion runbys there will be hardly any timing for mech ground army to exploit. SH not only deals damage but more importantly physically blocks ground movement of units, not to mention its long range on creep. This all makes it impossible to reach zerg base because you will never be able to out DPS the locusts fast enough.
And since both sides enter into this passive game, there are no trades and fights that would cause any bigger losses than occasional unit. Combined with the easiness of obtaining 4 bases means that is all you need to get that super strong terran late game army with bc-ravens-vikings (like Mvp had vs. Firecake on Frost).
But again it all starts from SH and how ground army can't really move out against higher SH numbers. And since SH are bad in low numbers,there will always be a lot of them when zerg chooses to go for them. The fish stinks from both ends. It starts before the swarm host, which is necessary to combat tank/viking combos. You're not going to do that with with roach, hydra, ultra based play around the max. mutalisks are great but eventually the terran can stabilize against them if he wants and it would be even easier if the terran didnt have to think about defending SHs. And even when you can keep the momentum wih mutas, you still build SHs with them to prevent the Terran from just pushing his way to victory with thor/tank/viking combos. Also yes, there are players that turtle behind their PFs regardless. It's not like Zergs first take on developing a standard vs Mech was to sit behind spores and locusts forever. But that is what you have to do unless you did massive damage early on. I didn't say the problem is exclusively in SH but saying that SH is not a problem and raven is is not an accurate assessment of the mech TvZ from David Kim, at least in my opinion. Also I saw some zergs deal with mech without going for SH play. There are other ways to deal with mech but the problem is they are not as reliable as going into SH. For example, if you watch Innovation's or Supernova's stream, they often mech against zerg and Korean zergs often go for a muta play. So you basically can deal with it either by outmaneuvering your opponent (like with mutas) or with using your racial advantages like tech switches. On those mentioned streams I saw zergs who would go for some early roach aggression against terran when mech is still weak (and that is also a factor in mech TvZ - the fact that mech can't really move out before at least 150 supply) forcing terran into tanks and then doing muta switches etc. I am pretty sure most zergs are happy to trade roaches for thors or tanks. But as I said, SH is most reliable way of playing against mech. At the same time, terran mech army gets strong at around 150-160 supply, doing any pushes with a couple of tanks and thors will just get shut down easily by zerg. So by the time mech is ready to move out, zerg already has enough SH out to stop that timing (if critical damage isn't dealt to zerg early on) and then we go into that turtle and sky terran. But blaming it on the terran and the raven and acting like all terrans choose to turtle into sky terran instead of being forced into it by game design is both unfair and wrong. Honestly I think that nerfing SH and buffing infestor's anti-mech abilities like NP or IT would be much better because we would probably see more trades in the mid game but infestors could be a valuable addition in dealing with late game sky terran army. Of course some sweet spot would need to be found to avoid making them as strong as they were in WoL. I would prefer that to simply nerfing the raven as DK obviously plans if we start to see more and more long mech games. He is also not "just" blaming the Raven. He is saying that Terrans could move out, but massing more Ravens seems to be better for them. And I actually agree with him. Building 10 Ravens to the rest of your Mech+Viking army may be required against an all turtled up SH-Zerg, waiting for 30 of them so you don't need any other antiair anymore is not. I am not sure when could meching terran actually move out against SH army and out DPS the locust fast enough to reach zerg base before losing expensive gas units to waves of free locusts. Only SH game I saw recently where terran won with a mech timing was that game between Snute and Mvp on Alterzim when Mvp basically hit when Snute had only a couple of SH and the rest of supply in roaches. But in game against Firecake he never had any timing to exploit. Mech is very weak before a certain supply is reached, apart from early game helion or helion+banshee play, you can't be out on the map and do a mech push on something like 80-100 supply because roaches would easily overwhelm that army. And then you are dead. Im not saying you shouldn't build Ravens or attack unmaxed (things that happen in the first 12-15mins). I'm saying you don't have to wait 30mins to attack. But there is no standard timing to exploit. Usually, when terran is ready to move out around something like 150 supply, zerg already has enough SH out. Games like Mvp vs. Snute are rare exception to the rule.
There are standard timings. Flash is doing a 3base Thor/Tank/Hellbat timing everygame. Then there are blue flame hellion timings. Unless you are looking for timings that cannot backfire at all, you can find at least some.
But again, that's not what I'm even going at. As I said, there is a huge difference between the requirement to max out and build some Ravens before moving out, and a Terran sacrificing SCVs, Hellions/Hellbats/Mines to build more Ravens.
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It's really frustrating to see Blizzard have to put up with the sheer amount of ignorance and immaturity in the Reddit community. David Kim, whom is representing a billion dollar company, one of the most successful, by far in the world has to put up with comments like:
"In other words he is useless as a productive member of society. I am not getting a useful word of all this PC crap so far. Nothing new or interesting. Apart from his zeal to nerf terran more so his game can sink even more to the bottom of the charts. The guy is an idiot that needs to be fired." by DaveDroid.
Troll or not, the community is giving itself a reputation as a whole, riddled with immaturity which is spreading the most negative ideas and propaganda around. I fear the day that a proper comparison can be made between reddit and the battle.net forums, because we are fast approaching that day.
The design team for StarCraft II has done a marvelous job and you would be dead wrong if you disagreed. Obviously there are issues with the game, as there are issues with any game but it is the substance and quality the game provides which allows millions of copies to be sold, keeps hundreds of thousands of multi-player accounts active, and not to mention the thousands actively participating in the community and the professional scene. People are not sitting on battle.net twiddling their thumbs, the game is in it's developing stages, and it's absolutely disgusting to see people blast the game and blizzard for issues they in reality are completely ignorant to. Anyone who has played various Blizzard games can tell you that this company has a very long, drawn out process of making games, and make an effort to share as little information about the game before it is absolutely necessary for feedback, for a number of reasons.
If anyone is aware of the issues to the game, and reasonable and practical improvements which CAN be made, it is Blizzard. The design team is not sitting in their offices playing darts and arm wrestling; they are more likely reading community feedback, brainstorming ideas , doing administrative work, as well as a plethora of other things.
There are many people whom are seemingly unaware to this, but the biggest factor in the success of a game is the investment which goes into it. This means the amount of people hired to take on the project and the quality and quantity of resources devoted to the project. Blizzard and the community can have the best ideas in the world, but if there is no interest from people providing the money, then it just simply is not going to fucking happen. That is the reality of the situation. Not to say Blizzard have limited resources; They are quite a wealthy company with many investors and a bunch of capital, but if there is no interest from investors, there is only so much that can be done. The people investing money into the game don't give a shit about anything besides their investment making them money, so unless it does that, there is no reason for them to make investments.
My point is, this community is shaping the way it is viewed, and the impression it gives to others, as well as those inside the community. It is very negative as a company, i'm sure, to have to read countless upon countless remarks based entirely upon ignorance and emotion. No investor will want to throw their money at a game all the kids are calling "daed". The success of this game relies on more than blizzard, it also relies on its community members sustenance through difficult parts of the game's development, as well as the collective solidarity to bridle negative, nonconstructive feedback. The success of a game is also quite dependent on the attitude of it's players, just as the success of a countries government and economy is dependent on its people. The community have all the power and all the energy to shape the game into what it needs to be. Blizzard's ability is to orchestrate that energy is only further diminished by the nonconstructive feedback being provided by the community. You can complain about Blizzard's process all you want, but at the end of the day they are the company that have crafted a brilliant legacy of games, with the aid of the community; and it is very sad to see that community begin to be deteriorated by an emotional roller coaster of players whos only agenda it seems is to further plunge itself into darkness.
There is much more i could say on this topic, and i know the majority of people will skim over this post and pose gestures towards my "Blizzard Favoritism", but that is life. This game is amazing, but it could be so much more if the community as a whole recognized the practical hardships which go into making and balancing a game of this complexity, none the less any game; and until this is understood we will be lost within this void of pessimism and self decay. I very much welcome comments and criticism to this post, unless its nonconstructive, off topic or just straight up stupid, additionally, please do not engage me by being passive aggressive. Please try to respect this as my opinion.
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In sum,
SC2 Team: "We want to communicate more with the community. How do you guys think about the game at the moment?"
Community: "We want changes, both small and big changes."
SC2 Team: "No."
End.
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I don't understand blizzard i really don't. Even though i still enjoy watching SC2 and probably will never completly stop watching it as long as there are games to watch their mentality of only making small changes seems wrong to me. If its just a balance change then it should be small thats correct imo but i think they should take the opportunity of the next Expansion to make huge changes to it. The game is good as it is but it could be amazing if the right changes are made to overall mechanics and not just units. But maybe im just too much of BW fan to accept SC2 as it is.
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Even tho I am not surprised, I am still disappointed. Nothing new... I hope that the LotV additions are gonna compensate the current flaws, but I am not convinced.
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On March 13 2014 19:35 Genetic wrote:
Game sucks, when are you losers going to move on already? Lol
Deathball A click mechanic killed this game a very long time ago. And if you haven't yet noticed, there is always something broken lol I suspect this is because the underlying mechanics of each race are broken, but who the hell cares at this point. DK you suck!
User was warned for this post
DK will fix that. He will add free units to every faction => perfect balance!
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How cool it would be to enter upkeep from WC3? (ofc different % for difference races)? Same stuff with high-grund mechanix from BW.
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On March 13 2014 21:14 pieroog wrote:
How cool it would be to enter upkeep from WC3? (ofc different % for difference races)? Same stuff with high-grund mechanix from BW.
Upkeep = no thx
High ground = yes but will never happen
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On March 13 2014 19:32 reapsen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 05:42 davidjayhawk wrote:
... the soft 3 base income cap ...
What does he mean by this? Is it the fact that Protoss and especially Terran can survive on a 3 base economy for 25+ Minutes in a game and still put out a sizeable army?
You dont gain any mineral-income-advantage of you have more bases than your opponent, if mineralworkers are the same. This is one of the biggest problems in lategame.
I am not sure about ZvP Lategame vs TvP Lategame. playing perspective: TvP is more unplayable but from watching perspective ZvP is lesser exciting than TvP.
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"Hey david kim are you gona make it more like starbow since starbow is so much better and exciting to watch"
Someone just had to do it... I knew it was going to be in there the second I saw the headline, but there was a glimmer of hope in my heart that I was wrong. Nope.
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What worries me the most and not just after reading this Q&A is that Blizzard is emitting the impression of beeing almost utter clueless of the direction they want to develop the game.
I was very active in both beta phases of WoL and HotS and the amount and severeness of changes they performed during both beta phases left me with the impression, that they are just doing a "trial-and-error" approach and have absolutely no solid plan how they want the game to pan out.
Just take a step back and look at units like the oracle or the whole debacle with the warhound or look again at the HotS Promotion-Panel Videos from Blizzcon 2011. To completely rework most new units or even cut them alltogether in a beta phase just blows my mind on so many levels.
In my opinion they should have had a plan or at least a rough roadmap before the release of wings of liberty about the races in their final state, but from what i read they most certainly don't have that.
It leaves the impression, they are sitting in their meetings throwing ideas around about what can be changed and put in or left out, but what really seems to be missing is a mastermind game engineer who has a vision, of how the races should work, what units fullfill which roles and which mechanics make for an exciting gameplay.
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what a surprise another 'we could do anything but we choose not too' outreach campaign... I'm surprised people still bother to participate. Almost all the issues raised are disregarded with the passive response, their is little point in the community suggesting anything other "x unit OP" that's clearly all they are looking for with their super slow process to keep the game alive.
This means, LoTV is the final chance for blizzard to get the multi-player part of the game right. HotS is a good opportunity for sweeping changes to collect the best data in prep for LoTV. the response that changes hurts player careers is a piss poor one, how many careers for pro players were ended because of the dismantlement of BW Korean scene thanks to Blizzards push to SC2.
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EPT
