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Yea, that proposed Hydra buff would break the game for sure.
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On February 03 2014 08:35 Snusmumriken wrote:
pretty much everyone is saying msc needs a vision nerf. The only reason it has 14 vision in the first place is from beta when the msc was attatched to the nexus and it needed 14 vision to have 14 po. In summary, blizzard is being lazy.
so please, for the love of god blizzard, for once listen to the community and the pros. This is what you need to do:
TvP:
Nerf the msc vision to 11 like every other air unit in the game.
Nerf the PO range slightly and/or increase the energy cost and/or reduce casting range as per miniguns suggestion, but keep its 60sec duration as that only truly affects pvp.
Increase timewarp cost
Instead of removing yet another upgrade (ghost), reduce the cost of the armory. Its virtually the same cost-reduction for terran regardless, but one actually helps mech. Please dont pretend to buff mech by buffing bio. You have no credibility in that department anymore, not after years and years of promising to make mech viable.
Remove the biotag from the hellbat. It makes zero sense to have a mechanical unit become a biounit just because it transforms. The ability of being healed is part of what made hellbat op in drops in the first place and at the same time makes them shit against archons.
Merge transformation servos and blueflame into one upgrade. Possibly with a longer upgradetime.
Things worth to consider but not to be done right now:
give tanks an upgrade that lets them attack shield more effectively. Basically "EMP Shells".
PvZ:
The problem isnt lategame tempests, the problem is the swarmhost! Some pros have suggested removing the enduring locust upgrade and instead let the swarmhost be faster both with burrowing/unborrowing and when moving around on the map. This could be either as an upgrade or as a fundamental change to the unit. Basically reward multitasking with swarmhosts instead of the boring, long, drawn out static play we're seeing. Others have more very good suggestions on how to improve the swarmhost and there are many possible ways to do so; please consider looking at the swarmhost instead of yet another bandaid with tempest.
Consider removing the tempest entirely and make the carrier into more of a bw-carrier where micro is possible. The tempest is a truly wonky unit that makes very little sense intuitively with its minimal damage to everything but massive, and having air units with such range is terrible design as air units dont really interact with the map in the first place (they only do so transitively by interacting with counters on the ground) and long range reduces that even further. This is wishful thinking on my part as I know youre never going to do this and most likely dont even care what anyone posts here but hey, doesnt hurt to try I guess...
TvZ:
Buff the radius of vipers blinding cloud but instead of nullifying range under it let it reduce range by a set number (as in reduce every units range by x, not reduce every units range to x). That way blinding cloud is less of a hard counter to mech and becomes more viable vs bio.
Consider nerfing ravens slightly in conjunction with proposed swarmhost changes. That in conjunction with changes to viper will result in less risk of turtle-terrans.
This is right on considering what is actually feasible in a patch without LotV
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On February 03 2014 09:39 Vanadiel wrote:
I find a little bit sad from Blizzard to even think that Hydra at 25 gaz could be okay, they are literally saying that they don't understand their own game.
Pretty much, it baffles me that their 'balance' team sat down and thought cheaper hydras was the change most worth testing on zerg.
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Yeah, Hydra buff wont go through. Just like Queen range or Oracle speed..... I hope the patch becomes live soon, I want to see both code S semifinals be ZvZ. Just mass Hydras being made and a clicked all over the place. This kills the Protoss whining to. No one ever complains about Zerg.
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On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
Look like bandaids?
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
On topic, I do find it funny that basically all of the pro opinions match what the community has said (outside of the vocal outliers who just want to be contrarian). People always say that the community has no idea what it is talking about, but it seems pretty clear that we aren't that far off when it comes to some of this stuff.
Everyone was saying ling/hydra into muta would become an issue with this patch, and now we have pros even saying as much.
If Blizzard ignores this, then I don't even know what to say. I can see why they would ignore the community at times, but if pros of all 3 races are all saying the same thing, then it is pretty clear what the consensus is.
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On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote:thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it. e: Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:
The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is. Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing. Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way. Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all. It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking. This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses. Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on. All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design. After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto.
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On February 03 2014 11:07 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote:thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it. e: On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:
The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is. Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing. Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way. Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all. It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking. This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses. Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on. All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design. After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying. When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto.
There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years'
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Nerf MSC vision range, photon overcharge damage or attack speed, but give it bonus damage vs shields.
Problem solved
You're welcome, Blizzard
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Some design whine is unwarranted sure, but some is, and we just wants whats best for the game. Staying quiet doesn't work, and Blizzard obviously can't figure it out on their own anymore.
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Assuming the Ghost Buff goes through I'd be curious to see if Ghost rushes become a thing. Given that Ghosts do 20 dmg vs light without upgrades + 3 snipes the second they spawn that's a lot of potential damage.
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On February 03 2014 11:12 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 11:07 aZealot wrote:On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote:thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it. e: On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:
The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is. Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing. Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way. Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all. It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking. This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses. Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on. All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design. After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying. When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto. There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years'
If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it.
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Norway839 Posts
Probably a bit late to the party with this post but whatever. Hydralisks will have 4:1 mineral to gas ratio up from 2:1 ratio if this change goes through. It will be the only Zerg technology unit to be this mineral heavy.
It seems like the designers are trying to increase the amount of tech units in the earlier parts of the mid-game, AND wanting to increase zerg's abililty to break 3rd bases early on, especially vs. Stargate play. The overall DPS and army HP increase can turn out to be too much. However, while Hydralisks are cheaper now, they still cost minerals and you can only mine so much before having to commit to a timing. It would be helpful for this thread if anyone did a calculation or practical comparison to check how many more minerals and hydras the gas reduction actually gives you as a result of the change.
Practical concerns:
- The first hydra wave, earlier forcefield/overcharge trigger, easier hydra reinforcement
- The transition into muta with extra free mutas
- The increased amount of hydras for 3rd breaker strategies before vipers in general (byebye voidray chargelot archon or even pre-lance colossi? o.o)
- Roach Hydra Viper early mid-game timings with too many hydralisks, vipers or even infestors in the mix
- Zergs taking faster 4th vs Phoenix into colossus openings, easier access to Hydralisk defending drones followed up with stronger defenses vs. 2 1/2-base and 3-base timings?
- Too easy to defend sentry-zealot-msc pressure into immortal all-ins?
Hydralisk pressure into multi-expand Spire play might become super overpowered and is probably the biggest possible concern about this patch.
The Hydra change would be a massive early timing attack buff and early mid-game army value buff, but I would like to see the added mineral effect in action, especially applied to the 6gas mutaswitch into 8/10gas muta reinforcement as well as the offensive early hydra rush.
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On February 03 2014 11:22 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 11:12 Ammanas wrote:On February 03 2014 11:07 aZealot wrote:On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote:thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it. e: On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:
The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is. Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing. Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way. Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all. It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking. This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses. Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on. All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design. After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying. When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto. There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years' If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it.
Blizzard takes these middle of the road options that don't lead anywhere.
They directly take the brood war design and match it with modern rts controls so that the game is considered both too easy and too punishing so that nobody is happy.
Then they commit to four years of constant support and patching, never leaving the game alone to develop on its own, while never actually going through with redesigns of problem aspects of the game.
Wcs is rife with bad motr decisions, then they try to fix it but they leave so many koreans grandfathered in na/eu, making the new model slightly pointless.
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The biggest solution would be Blizzard holding a conference for all the PROS and let all the sentiments of three races be discussed.Where all present are the PROS, the game design team and the Blizzard titans.Is it that hard for Blizzard to hold an event like this? This will be tournament of reasoning and wits.
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On February 03 2014 11:22 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 11:12 Ammanas wrote:On February 03 2014 11:07 aZealot wrote:On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote:thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it. e: On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:
The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is. Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing. Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way. Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all. It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking. This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses. Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on. All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design. After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying. When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto. There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years' If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it.
Or they might be dead wrong but be unable or unwilling to realise it or accept it.
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On February 03 2014 11:40 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 11:22 Squat wrote:On February 03 2014 11:12 Ammanas wrote:On February 03 2014 11:07 aZealot wrote:On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote:thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it. e: On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:
The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is. Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing. Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way. Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all. It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking. This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses. Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on. All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design. After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying. When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto. There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years' If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it. Blizzard takes these middle of the road options that don't lead anywhere. They directly take the brood war design and match it with modern rts controls so that the game is considered both too easy and too punishing so that nobody is happy. Then they commit to four years of constant support and patching, never leaving the game alone to develop on its own, while never actually going through with redesigns of problem aspects of the game. Wcs is rife with bad motr decisions, then they try to fix it but they leave so many koreans grandfathered in na/eu, making the new model slightly pointless.
What is motr? I think I get the Korean grandfathering reference.
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On February 03 2014 11:45 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 11:22 Squat wrote:On February 03 2014 11:12 Ammanas wrote:On February 03 2014 11:07 aZealot wrote:On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote:thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it. e: On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:
The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is. Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing. Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way. Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all. It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking. This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses. Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on. All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design. After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying. When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto. There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years' If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it. Or they might be dead wrong but be unable or unwilling to realise it or accept it.
A lot of the negativity was allowed because people thought it would pressure blizzard into fixing their pet concerns. I think if blizzard had abandoned starcraft from day 1 that the community would be a lot happier because only those that liked the game would have stayed around, maybe.
edit: motr = middle of the road, writing on mobile so being concise. 
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Well, it's almost impossible to get balance right. And if Blizzard don't patch things, they even get more complaint + they have to do something with their job. Even Starbow can't get the balance right, and it's the community's mod. If BW was popular now, we'll still be whining about balance.
I just think RTS popularity time is over. The new era likes LoL, Dota style more. The latest sc2 tournament have less viewers than 1 pro LoL gamer stream. That's saying a lot.
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Ryung, man of few words. Thoroughly enjoyed the interviews! Thank you TL Strat team, Nathanias, Zeromus for putting it together with the progamers
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On February 03 2014 11:43 elmerpogs wrote:
The biggest solution would be Blizzard holding a conference for all the PROS and let all the sentiments of three races be discussed.Where all present are the PROS, the game design team and the Blizzard titans.Is it that hard for Blizzard to hold an event like this? This will be tournament of reasoning and wits.
Stream it too.
As matter of fact, get the Koreans on the panel too.
Get the ProLeague guys w/ translators.
This conference can last for 3 days for 10 hrs/day.
This WILL generate more viewers than the higher recorded SC2 event.
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EPT
