Following in the footsteps of our DotA 2 and Hearthstone counterparts, the TeamLiquid Strategy team reached out to some professional players asking them about their first impressions on the proposed changes. Please keep in mind: these are impressions based on their experience and understanding of the game. Should any of these changes go through the impressions put forth here may change, as they explore the possibilities with each change.
A special thanks as well to Nathanias, who was able to contact many of these players and provide much of the feedback from Korean players seen here was collected through him.
Proposed Changes
Protoss Mothership Core:
Photon Overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 50 seconds. Time Warp energy cost increased from 75 to 100.
Tempest:
Resonance Coil ground weapon damage increased from 30 to 30 + 30 vs. Structures.
Terran Ghost:
Starting energy increased from 50 to 75.
The Moebius Reactor upgrade has been removed from the Ghost Academy.
Zerg Hydralisk:
Cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25.
"I think it's kinda not bad that Mothership core is nerfed like that. But if they do the Ghost buff and MSC nerf both. It'll ruin PvT so much I think.
I can't really imagine that tempest but I'm pretty sure buff Hydralisk totally sucks."
"I dont know yet about ghost, I need [to play the] game after patch. I guess Terran will use ghost cheese in earlytime [unclear if this means early timing, or when patch is new].
Overcharge and timewarp are small nerfs to Protoss but its not a big deal.
Hydra patch - ZvP its really hard.
Tempest its good for Protoss but [I'll] need [to play a]game after patch but it also not a big deal (vs Zerg small advantage )"
"I'm looking forward to the mothershipcore change because it will greatly reduce defender's advantage for the photon overcharge.
As for the timewarp if that's what it takes for people to stop crying their hearts out, I can live with it.
The tempest change is really refreshing. I haven't had too much trouble with swarmhost but I also haven't played the Firecakes, stephanos and catzs of this world. It will also make players want to try more shenanigans like proxy or use tempest more in PvT so it will be fun. It won't be game breaking.
I don't think the ghost change will do anything other than help players with poor macro have ghost with enough energy for a battle. If you time your energy upgrade to sync with the ghost production, like how a Zerg would sync up the energy upgrade on his infestor, you don't have that problem therefore if you have good macro, the energy upgrade wasn't a problem before.lets take a look, a ghost takes 40 seconds to make and energy upgrade takes 80 seconds to research,so, you're saving 40 seconds but there are barely any games, if at all, that a Terran is dying because of a 40 second window with ghosts not being on the field.
The hydralisk change will break the game, hydralisk are extremely powerful but are vulnerable to collosus. a buff in the mineral cost could be an option but ling hydra into muta will just be way too strong if this goes through."
"[Mothership Core] TvP clearly , its Protoss nerf. But overcharge 10second it cant change something [much]. Time warp patch also cant do much, if Protoss use blink stalker, time warp just needed one time. Nothing will be changed .
About Ghost, blizzard said it will be helpful with mechanic [mech compositions] but i don't think its much help mechanic. I think it gives more power with bionic [bio - marine marauder] play. Its a nice patch but we need to see it for a while [if it is] good or not. [Against] high templar basic mana will be problem because player can use them after make unit but ghost need to walk they get mana between time so i dont know its over patch or so so. [the intention here is as follows: since when attacking, ghosts walk cross map they should already have energy for emp]
Hydra buff - crazy patch it shoud be removed.
Tempest - tempest's don't need patch its good enough damage x1.5 only bionic building (Zerg) its good enough to testing but x2 x3 its not good."
"Photon overcharge nerf will change PvP more than any other matchup, it's an extremely volitile matchup and it is already difficult enough to take a natural, this will just make it even harder. PvT it will help Terrans slightly, they can now do a push out, bait out photon overcharge, and then push in again only faster than before, but I don't think anyone thinks this is the best way to go about fixing PvT. Time warp nerf will help Terrans in general, overall good nerf, not too extreme one way or another, possibly will only have enough energy for one time warp doing a blink stalker all in instead of two, which is a big deal.
Tempests - seems just to be a bandaid to cover the actual problem, which is the unit design of the swarmhost. It will help toss be able to push forward faster, but doesn't fix anything.
Ghost buff - I don't see what prompted this buff, this is a decent nerf to ht openings, I personally stopped opening colossi due to scv pulls, but might have to switch back depending on how severe this actually is. I'd like to see it in play to get a feel for how big of a buff it is. IMO they are looking to buff/nerf areas that don't really make sense in trying to fix PvT.
Hydra buff - Scary buff for Zerg, ling/hydra into muta switches will be extremely scary, they will have quite a bit extra gas to work with. I don't see this buff going through.
When asked what fixes he would suggest to PvT Minigun replied as follows:
Mothership core vision nerf. It's absurdly high at the moment [currently 14], and this change would indirectly nerf quite a few Protoss all ins and allow them to play less greedy. Another nerf I saw was suggested was nerfing the range in which photon overcharge could be casted atm you can cast both photon overcharges from in between your two bases, if you had to be directly over the nexus, or very close that would be another viable nerf in my opinion. [The current cast range for Photon Overcharge is 10]"
"Photon Overcharge: I like this change, Protoss has been feeling a bit too strong in the defense lately and I like the approach of going small steps so this has my approval.
Time Warp: Definitely agree with this change as well, the MSC is incredibly strong throughout the game. Considering its low tech and relatively low price for such a powerful caster I welcome this change.
Ghosts: Not too sure about this, it's not like ghosts are hard to obtain as it is now and they're incredibly strong. Might create some timings that will be too tough for Protoss to hold and won't make Terran stronger in the late game. It's a purely timing based change, not a big fan.
Hydralisks: This is completely insane and won't make it into the game. Slashing the gas costs of a core unit into half is probably the biggest change to any unit we've seen in SC2 since beta. I'd prefer a much smaller buff, like reducing the costs of the both upgrades to 100/100, giving them an additional 10 hp or +1 armour.
Ling/hydra timings are already very powerful and I don't think Protoss will be able to hold against 25 gas hydras especially if MSC also gets a slight nerf. Follow that up with Muta and it's a completely nightmare for Protoss. Might also make Roach/Hydra too strong in ZvT. But it would be cool if Zerg had a 2nd composition you can reliably play in that matchup.
Tempest: No Big opinion on this one, I'd much rather see Swarmhost nerf combined with a voidray/tempest nerf. And allow more dynamic unit compositions into late game."
"Mothership Core: not relevant at all, one approach to making Terran early aggession viable is to nerf the mothership core (which is what Blizzard is doing), but since the reason why Terran can't be aggressive is because of 2base blink all-ins and oracle what they should really be focusing on is how to make those less viable. Time warp maybe decent because you can only time warp twice, and the 3rd one wont be available for a while after that, but usually the game is decided by the first 2 time warps.
Tempests: makes some niche proxy tempests in PvT better, like on Polar night where there's a huge amount of air space behind the main mineral line.
Ghosts: Seems like a redundant buff, Terran is only strong in the mid game (when they're not being all-ined) so it's making the strongest Terran point a little bit stronger (still doesn't have that much of an impact).
Was there really any reason for the hydra buff? I don't watch any ZvP but it seems so random and stupid. It's like if they changed marauders to not require gas and are able to be reactor'd, completely out of the blue and silly as hell
I'm glad concerns about the hydralisk buff (even from a Zerg perspective) were raised, and I also agree about scrutinizing over the mothership casting range rather than the energy.
By the way, I proposed a change to Overcharge casting recently. Making Overcharge a Channeling spell (and thus cancellable) and giving MSC a small defensive bonus while channeling. That''d fix SO much.
They need to do terran T3 units viable ... why not a BC spell that create a field around him and every bio unit in this field would be buff ... the type of buff would be subject of balance discussions ...
Then you would not need a mass transition or anything to enter T3 ...getting T3 and having 2-3 BC with his bioball would be sufficient
See blizzard? Pretty much everyone is calling for the MSC vision nerf. photon overcharge nerf does close to nothing except in PvP which is a bad idea. Not sure about the time warp nerf, now that double time warps are harder to get we'll see how everything goes.
I think the idea behind the tempest buff is ok, protosses need ways to push back static defenses with them so swarm hosts cant gain ground, at the same time they cant sacrifice void ray count and build too many tempests else corruptors overrun them. Although I prefer a solution to late game PvZ in the form of carrier buffs:
changing their attack from 5x2(+1x2 per upgrade) to 10x1(+2x1 per upgrade) to make them better vs corruptors,
slightly increase their range so they can kinda assist tempests(maybe even replace them in pushing back static Ds), or give us the BW micro mechanic which they obviously wont do...
reduce the build time(so the transition will be easier)
make interceptors spread out more(so they are less vulnerable vs fungal growths)
I dont understand the idea behind the ghost buff. How difficult is it to get ghosts as soon as you scout a templar archives so they can pile up energy and have enough to emp during the fight?
It's awesome that they got comments from jjakji :D interesting that he doesn't think the ghost buff as too effective since he says ghosts will build up the energy they need before actually fighting anyway, and that he thinks MsC will be able to cast their 2 necessary timewarps regardless of the nerf. We'll have to see how things go in game :D
haha no one likes the hydra buff. Additionally that made me notice only one zerg was included in the commenting :O
Minigun's proposal is really good (photon overcharge range nerf + vision nerf). The rest is not very important, the hydra buff has been adequately commentated :D
EGXenocider : Tempests: makes some niche proxy tempests in PvT better, like on Polar night where there's a huge amount of air space behind the main mineral line.
is this a joke ? " proxy " stargate and you need to invest into Fleet Beacon , no way protoss can hold stim timings or any sort of drop play if he invests so heavy into 1 unit. especialy if the photon overcharge duration is reduced .
i would love to be proven wrong but 150/150(stargate cost) + 300/300 ( fleet beacon cost ) + 300/200 ( tempest cost ) 750/650 total cost , would leave you with close to no units to defend stim timings
Nice comments from the pros. Kinda cool that it's basically the same feedback as from the non-pro community. Hydra buff is crazy, MSC nerf is good but nerf the vision. Tempest and Ghost changes don't tackle the real problems.
On February 02 2014 22:50 xsnac wrote: EGXenocider : Tempests: makes some niche proxy tempests in PvT better, like on Polar night where there's a huge amount of air space behind the main mineral line.
is this a joke ? " proxy " stargate and you need to invest into Fleet Beacon , no way protoss can hold stim timings or any sort of drop play if he invests so heavy into 1 unit. especialy if the photon overcharge duration is reduced .
i would love to be proven wrong but 150/150(stargate cost) + 300/300 ( fleet beacon cost ) + 300/200 ( tempest cost ) 750/650 total cost , would leave you with close to no units to defend stim timings
I've seens Rotti and Harstem and others do proxy tempest vs Terran on stream and it can work nicely. Now with extra damage vs buildings it will indeed be very strong since you can just kill reactors and techlabs or depots now.
Nice to hear from the pros as always. Though, the feedback is a bit disappointing. It's just a higher-tier of players echoing pretty much everything people are saying in the balance thread with little added insight this time around.
MSC: Not enough
Ghost: Doesn't get to the core problem of mech. Encourages cheese/timings
Tempest: Unsure/sucks
Hydralisk: The stupidest change of them all by a fair margin. Even the zergs think it's stupid.
Ghost change: -Buffs Bio -Removes a 1 time 100 mineral/100 vespene gas cost -Does not buff mech
A better change: Armory price reduced to brood war price, 100 minerals/50 gas -Buffs Mech -Removes a 1 time 100 mineral/100 vespene gas cost (exact same as blizzard's ghost change that buffs bio, not mech) -Buffs mech -Upgrades at a more reasonable time vs Protoss
The ghost change does nothing to promote mech in TvP. But by even proposing that it shows blizzard is willing to cut a 100 mineral/100 vespene gas cost out of mech to help.
So why will they not listen to feedback that actually helps mech TvP in a more direct way and does exactly the same resource cost cut?
For the lazy:
Mobius Reactor Upgrade Cost: 100 minerals/100 gas. Cost of two armories currently: 300 minerals/200 vespene gas.
Mobius reactor removed from the game: 100 minerals/100 vespene gas is cut. Cost of two armories after armory price change: 200 minerals/100 vespene gas
100 minerals/100 gas is cut by both changes, but one clearly addresses mech viability, the other does not.
Nice comments from the pros. Kinda cool that it's basically the same feedback as from the non-pro community. Hydra buff is crazy, MSC nerf is good but nerf the vision. Tempest and Ghost changes don't tackle the real problems.
they don t all agree that the proposed MSC nerf is good.
As hilariously fun as it would be to use 25 gas hydras to ez mode every game... that is honestly one of the most horrible patch ideas I've ever seen. How that could even be seen as reasonable is beyond my capability to understand.
I like the other changes though. Nice to hear from the pros.
Minigun's responses were best. Smart guy. Avilo too (see a few posts up).
I can't motivate myself to play these days. These patches can't really change anything really, they're just balance tweaks. Maybe I should uninstall until I see how lotv turns out. Haven't played in weeks anyway.
The hydra buff is an obvious move so stop buying into their crap, btw. It's an over-buff to get the reaction out, and after they "test" it they'll put through or propose their actual change which will be acceptable by comparison. This community has fallen for this crap so many times its one of the reasons why the game's direction wasn't better after hots launch.
Nice to see the Pros opinion on some of this stuff. Thanks TL and Nathanias.
MMA, Minigun and to an extent Xeno hit the nail on the head, MSC needs a vision nerf more than anything.
In concern of the Hydras, you know you've screwed up when a Zerg player says it's insane and even gives reasons as to why and I sort of agree with TLO and Minigun for the SH issue. Fix SH and in terms of TLO's suggestion, nerf VRs a bit. They're incredibly strong.
I'd be pretty damn happy with either of Minigun's MSC nerfs alongside the Time Warp nerf tbh, they're fair suggestions that actually address the problem at hand with PvT.
Even as a zerg player, I just couldn't help but burst into peals of laughter at the sight of that hydra buff. Half of the laughter was at me dreaming of building only hydralisks in every matchup for the first 10 minutes of the game. The other half of laugher was just directed towards David Kim.
I think it's funny how Korean Protoss pros seem scared shitless by any terran buff while Minigun has the ballz to talk about what should be nerfed for PvT and with his suggestion for what should be nerfed he is totally right imo.
I think they shouldn't change overcharge duration due to PvP but if P can feel so safe early game vs Terran (not sure about zerg but hey probably also) I think Terran shouldn't be wondering first 7-8 minutes what the hell is the protoss gonna fuck him with because Protoss has SO many viable openings that cannot be defended with the press of a button - Oracles, DTs, blink, gateway all ins, void ray all ins and their all apart from gate way all ins done with 2 gas and HOW the hell are you supposed to know without scouting entire map what is going on? Again, I would be fine with that if Terran also had quite a few viable openings vs Protoss but they dont so I think protoss ones shouldnt be as deadly as they currently are.
My suggestiongs: -nerf MSC vision to 10 and nexus overcharge casting range to 6-7 (won't affect PvP that much) -Don't remove the ghost ubgrade, give tanks EMP shells or what Goody suggested that tanks should fire with less damage but more often and redesign the warhound properly for Lotv god damnit. The only point in which I think that Ghosts should get the buff you suggested is because of those ridiculous storm zealot archon all ins we see a lot nowadays with 2 armor, ridiculously good, 5 bunkers ih having trouble stopping that shit lol. -Turrets without ebay or 75 mins per turret -oracle speed should get buffed Kappa - nerf time warp as you wanted That would be a start to see how it plays out, obviously P being so good defensively while macroing in your main with a warp prism is funny too just like the micro potential of that race but lets leave it. -Avilo suggested a really good change just couple posts above mine, take a look at that and listen, at least for once to what that man is saying even though you probably shitlisted him long time ago already.
Tempest buff wont change much in PvZ and will make it another all in to scout for in TvP (as day9 said protoss has over 400 all ins to choose from already), to change PvZ you have to make it possible to engage the protoss death ball somehow because their army just like terrans and very often just melts away to lazors and storms so theyre forced to go swarm hosts.
I honestly think hydra buff doesnt need any discussion, everyone will switch to zerg if it goes through haha
P.S. Grubby, during Asus ROG you could have ballz to not deny the fact that Protoss is raping terran man, shame on you dude really. Im afraid that is to be expected from you because youre the one that played orc in WC3 afterall, so did I but I had the ballz that admit it was too strong.
Really liked miniguns insight about momma core balance, definitely some good ideas that blizzard should consider. Can we get him to balance the game instead of david kim?
I would love this post if it were just a gathering of professional opinions on the state of the game.
That it's an organized place for Blizzard to receive feedback on major balance changes turns it from a good post to an amazing one. I love that this exists, thank you for making it. :D
As for the timewarp if that's what it takes for people to stop crying their hearts out, I can live with it. -desrow
Wut. That change wont do anything against what makes Terrans cry, which is the Blink attacks and you'll still be able to use 2 timewarps. The biggest problem is barely any of the Blink "all-ins" are actually all-in, you can deal no damage and still be fine, while 3 gate blink "pressure" can straight up kill Terran. On the other hand even a fake blink attack can be game ending for T because the Terran will be too scared to move out and overcommit so hard on defense, that Protoss is free to do whatever they want. (See Dear vs. TaeJa map 5 on Frost from ASUS ROG, Dear cancels a scouted Twilight, sends low stalker counts towards TaeJas base and double expands off of it, while TaeJa is too scared to do anything- most recent example I could think off)
Most of them are right, PO wont change too much in anything but PvP, Hydralisks change = lol, Ghost doesnt affect the main mech issue.
Thanks for asking the pros, I hope Blizz listens will atleast to the vision change for the MSC (14 vision is larger than a scan lol)
On February 02 2014 22:54 avilo wrote: Just putting this here:
Ghost change: -Buffs Bio -Removes a 1 time 100 mineral/100 vespene gas cost -Does not buff mech
A better change: Armory price reduced to brood war price, 100 minerals/50 gas -Buffs Mech -Removes a 1 time 100 mineral/100 vespene gas cost (exact same as blizzard's ghost change that buffs bio, not mech) -Buffs mech -Upgrades at a more reasonable time vs Protoss
The ghost change does nothing to promote mech in TvP. But by even proposing that it shows blizzard is willing to cut a 100 mineral/100 vespene gas cost out of mech to help.
So why will they not listen to feedback that actually helps mech TvP in a more direct way and does exactly the same resource cost cut?
For the lazy:
Mobius Reactor Upgrade Cost: 100 minerals/100 gas. Cost of two armories currently: 300 minerals/200 vespene gas.
Mobius reactor removed from the game: 100 minerals/100 vespene gas is cut. Cost of two armories after armory price change: 200 minerals/100 vespene gas
100 minerals/100 gas is cut by both changes, but one clearly addresses mech viability, the other does not.
If they would do that, it would make sense. But they either have some intel we do not have or they have no idea what they are doing. When I look at the hydralisk buff, I think its most likely the latter.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
As for the timewarp if that's what it takes for people to stop crying their hearts out, I can live with it. -desrow
I honestly would like to see a reduction in the radius of time warp. The issue with time warp is not that it can be casted too often, but rather that two time warps will decide a battle definitively. It makes no sense that time warp can cover an entire army. As a Protoss player, I definitely think the reason why Protoss all-ins are so powerful is because of time warp more than anything else, and I'd be happy to take a hit on time warp as long as the change is reasonable.
good ideas allroundand they clearly adress the biggest issue, its not that terren have a problem with pushing into a toss player its just that they have to defend all the time becuse of all-ins im sorry but blink allin has to be nerfed its almost immposible to defend aginst even when you see it coming. the second thing is to help low level plyers in late PvT its just soooooo hard for a low level player to beat a late game toss ty very much for this post keep it coming!
It's nice to hear from the pros, but there's precious few examples and seemingly very limited experience actually playing with the patch.
When commenting on proposed balance changes, it feels more like a PR event or a business transaction than an honest opinion. I'm quite wary of each and every proposed change, and I don't think any of them are on-target.
On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote: It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
-> The Time Warp change is a good change. Maybe a slight cast range nerf (to go hand in hand with the vision nerf) to Time Warp would give PvT blink builds the slight nerf they need. Maybe a cast range nerf for Photon Overcharge (like Minigun suggested) would be good aswell to make drops a little bit stronger.
-> Photon Overcharge duration nerf is bullshit. PvP will get way worse from this.
-> Making the Oracle a little bit slower again would be a good change IMO. (Not as slow as it was, but a solid middle ground, so that you can actually lose it to marines without the terran having to build turrets everywhere.)
-> The Hydra change is the most stupid thing ever. Muta-switches will be waaaaay too powerful. If blizzard feels hydras are too weak, why not make the upgrades faster or cheaper or buff the actual unit slightly instead of this ridiculous bullshit.
-> The Ghost change doesnt accomplish anything except for making terran slightly stronger when they are at their strongest point in the game anyways. I don't know what blizzard seeks to accomplish with this, but when balancing TvP they should rather make the according changes to Oracle/MSC than to the terran side of things. This will make the transition into the midgame smoother for terrans (and prevent the protoss from playing as greedy) and would give them a better shot at ending the game earlier or do enough damage to the protoss so they have a better shot at lategame.
-> The Tempest change is a wrong way of approaching the the swarm-host problem. I don't know what the right way is, but this just doesn't seem good. The problem IMO is the swarm host itself, not what Protoss or Terran can throw at it. Well, maybe a slight buff to mech in some way wouldn't hurt.
-> Dear Blizzard, I know it's never going to happen, but it would be really nice to see carriers in competitive play JUST ONCE. Not that Protoss needs another viable unit, but I can't even remember if i ever saw a carrier built in pro play.
Just wanted to share my opinion, because I think some of you might just agree.
On February 02 2014 23:28 trada wrote: reading through all the pros comments on the patch I get to the conclusion that no matter what race or nationality they are they think that:
-protoss nerfs -> Ok -protoss buffs -> probably irrelevant
-terran buff -> doesnt deal with the actual problem that terrans have
-zerg buff -> insane (in a bad way)
I wonder what the developers have to say to that.
probably some stats backing up their decision but yeah everyone think this patch does not address anything but rather worsen things.
- Mothership Core vision reduced like minigun said - Time Warp and Mass Recall researched on Cybernetics Core - Photon Overcharge energy 125 (so that they have to make a choice, instead of just spamming photon overcharge on both bases) - Blink research time longer, or Blink distance shorter/cooldown higher (but the blink allins will probably be good enough if a MSC nerf would occur)
proposed buffs - Hydralisk hp/armor increased instead of reduced cost
I don't mean for all these nerfs to be implemented, but I believe they are options worth considering over the ones blizz suggested
or give us the BW micro mechanic which they obviously wont do...
Which mechanic? They gave several of them ages ago
The carrier micro mechanic? The interceptor-not-going-back-into-the-carriers-as-long-as-they-are-moving-so-they-have-super-long-range mechanic gives the protoss army much more straight up fighting power than tempests will ever give and is much cooler anyways.
First thing I said about ghost buff was the same as Xenocider. It *slightly* buffs the midgame timing which is already the only way Terran can win in TvP. So stupid.
Respect to Minigun for being honest about the msc, not many P's have that in them.
On February 03 2014 00:00 fromhearttosun wrote: I like Minigun and MMA ideas. Also, one good way to nerf Oracles a bit - decrease their acceleration speed.
no
the acceleration speed is actually what made revelation somewhat viable before that buff, the oracle would always die to vikings/marines/corrupters/hydras
Despite obvious racial bias there are some patterns here.
1. MSC change is indeed a nerf but not something that Protoss OR Terran pros are happy about. Most are calling for a vision nerf that reduces the effectiveness of Protoss All Ins.
2. Ghost change seems unnecessary and doesn't help Mech play at all but rather makes it possible for Terrans to be more aggressive with Ghost timing attacks with Bio.
3. Hydralisk change seems like a terrible idea for both Protoss and Zerg players namely because of how even more powerful it can make Mutalisk tech switches.
4. Tempest change doesn't seem big either way, but is also missing the core of the problem which is Swarm Hosts and Void Rays.
Sad to see them proposing to nerf the msc this way. Time warp increased cost is fine but the cannon duration will only really have a big impact in PvP and help make it more 1 basey again Vision change to stop blink all-ins would be fine.
Hydra buff is full blown retarded and would break ZvP
On February 03 2014 00:05 Vindicare605 wrote: Despite obvious racial bias there are some patterns here.
1. MSC change is indeed a nerf but not something that Protoss OR Terran pros are happy about. Most are calling for a vision nerf that reduces the effectiveness of Protoss All Ins.
2. Ghost change seems unnecessary and doesn't help Mech play at all but rather makes it possible for Terrans to be more aggressive with Ghost timing attacks with Bio.
3. Hydralisk change seems like a terrible idea for both Protoss and Zerg players namely because of how even more powerful it can make Mutalisk tech switches.
4. Tempest change doesn't seem big either way, but is also missing the core of the problem which is Swarm Hosts and Void Rays.
that s a spot on summary on the thoughts of the professionals and the community
if blizzard just read this post, they knew all they needed
I think make the Ghost Academy should have a Factory requirement to slow down early timings and make building a Nuke simpler (the icon is greyed out until a Factory is built).
Despite obvious racial bias there are some patterns here.
1. MSC change is indeed a nerf but not something that Protoss OR Terran pros are happy about. Most are calling for a vision nerf that reduces the effectiveness of Protoss All Ins.
2. Ghost change seems unnecessary and doesn't help Mech play at all but rather makes it possible for Terrans to be more aggressive with Ghost timing attacks with Bio.
3. Hydralisk change seems like a terrible idea for both Protoss and Zerg players namely because of how even more powerful it can make Mutalisk tech switches.
4. Tempest change doesn't seem big either way, but is also missing the core of the problem which is Swarm Hosts and Void Rays.
I'd liked to hear some of the better Pros on their opinion.. I mean don't get me wrong, but they could've certainly asked Naniwa instead of Desrow.. I mean they should've focused on those who actually DO things, instead of talk about them
Although most of them did their part well - pretty sure it would've been actually much better to ask the legit players, instead of potential rising stars IMO..
Though might be wrong cause they might say something like what Ryung said "oh, they nerfing Protoss and buffing Terran ? - cool" - so yah - doesn't help
Still - would be interested to hear what Polt and/or Taeja think about the changes overall
On February 03 2014 00:12 VArsovskiSC wrote: I'd liked to hear some of the better Pros on their opinion.. I mean don't get me wrong, but they could've certainly asked Naniwa instead of Desrow.. I mean they should've focused on those who actually DO things, instead of talk about them
Although most of them did their part well - pretty sure it would've been actually much better to ask the legit players, instead of potential rising stars IMO..
Though might be wrong cause they might say something like what Ryung said "oh, they nerfing Protoss and buffing Terran ? - cool" - so yah - doesn't help
Still - would be interested to hear what Polt and/or Taeja think about the changes overall
I am a fan of naniwa, but he still thinks protoss is underpowered -.- Taeja always says terran sucks too.
I actually think the pros chosen are very objective.
Hydra buff isn't going to make it btw. (Too bad I would have had a lot of fun :D)
But come on, stop trying to buff mech. It's so boring, a lot of pros (zergs and terrans) have already same the same. I don't want to play half-map scenario SH/Corrupter/Viper/Infestator against Mech all day long ... If they want to buff mech, buff it against protoss only (This way they share a little bit of our pain ... ><). Lategame skytoss army is undeatable once you reached a certain point. It doesn't matter of much have in banks, how many bases you have ... It's just silly.
On February 03 2014 00:15 75 wrote: i am looking forward to see the tempest proxy builds if the tempest buff makes it through.
Yet another proxy cheese to look out for?
But yeah, I don't think we even needed these pros opinions to know that the changes are just misguided and kinda poor overall. Blizzard seems to be more interested in doing their own thing instead of actually listening to the playerbases biggest concerns.
An extremly bad syntax will impact semantic. Ask a specialist what he thinks in a foreign language and he will sound retarded, no matter the width and depth of his knowledge.
In all these opinions, I read mine as well: -MSC nerf is a step in the right direction -Hydra change is damn right imbalanced -Ghost buff doesn't adress the root problem of TvP (will most likely open up some stupid scv train timings though)
As Protoss isn't screaming bloody murder I think the changes do nothing.
A reduction to the MSC Vision range is needed and give Time-Warp a cooldown. 1 Time-Warp every 20-30 seconds is more then enough when you have Force Fields.
I would also like to see revelation time reduces to 30 seconds, vision for 60 seconds for just energy, ridiculous when you already have Probes and Hallucinations.
THE MAPS.... THE MAPS ARE ALL SUPER GOOD FOR BLINK. Blink is viable on almost every map in the map pool. Terran already has enough allins to worry about, I don't think they should have to worry about Blink allins on every map.
Time warp is really useful in PvP and PvZ especially on these open maps, I'd hate to see it nerfed because every map has a huge ramp into the main. THe MSC vision is also useful in PvP for scouting so I want to keep that. Just fix the frickin maps please and that will solve like 90% of the Blink allin issues.
Seriously there has never been such an allin friendly map pool in the history of SC2. Fix that and the game will be better for Terrans in the early game.
The patches IMO don't address the actual problems (Terrans dying to Blink allins, Swarm Hosts being poorly designed).
On February 03 2014 00:15 Dools1337 wrote: I really like the idea of nerfing MSC range.
Hydra buff isn't going to make it btw. (Too bad I would have had a lot of fun :D)
But come on, stop trying to buff mech. It's so boring, a lot of pros (zergs and terrans) have already same the same. I don't want to play half-map scenario SH/Corrupter/Viper/Infestator against Mech all day long ... If they want to buff mech, buff it against protoss only (This way they share a little bit of our pain ... ><). Lategame skytoss army is undeatable once you reached a certain point. It doesn't matter of much have in banks, how many bases you have ... It's just silly.
The reason of why Terran mech has to be buffed isn't just cause of some BW/Nostalgia factor.. It is also for the sake of diversity.. Not just diversity in terms of tech routes, but diversity cause of playstyle.. Not everyone is good at splitting Marines.. And THAT's why all the Terran players in lower leagues are disappointed (including me as a Random player) overall
AND - what is worse is the following - by having only one core unit for an entire race totally decides what the Race's strengths and weakness-es will be as a whole - i.e. - Terran is what the Marine is - strong at DPS, weak vs AoE, having to have spread to deny AoE even at lower levels as if you were like a true pro..
So yah - there's much more than just the nostalgia factor in this.. If anything - it's exactly what the game needs.. Terran as a race has far too many Specialist units, and only one Core unit - which is the Marine (some may say Marauder and Medivac - but those are again - Marine 2.0, or at least Marine transport)
The closest anything else to be a core unit is the Thor and the Banshee.. ONLY - the problem is that Thor is far too expensive to be a core unit, and Banshee can be a core unit as long as your opponent doesn't have Air.. So yah - Terran need another core unit that's not the Marine, and honestly I wouldn't care if it came out of Factory, or Starport.. If at least one of those 2 buildings had something as worthy as the Marine - Terran would be in a very good shape across all leagues and across all levels of play overall..
Hence my 51661839534624 posts in all of which I was saying to buff the Widow-Mine and test it as a versatile all-around and not just anti-Zerg unit.. i.e. - test how it feels by it being the Marine 2.0 core unit that comes out of the Factory (hence being a Core-building unit of mech, or even better Bio-Mech) armies.. And yes - there are tons and tons and tooons of ways to buff the Mine vs Protoss to not actually change the anti-Zerg side of it all
Hydra buff would've maybe made ZvZ better, but it would've been so at the cost of totally ruining PvZ which is far greater worse
Don't worry fellas. Blizzard will incorporate some of these ideas in the next balance test map. Which is coming soon. Just 3-6 months down the road. Because it's so much work changing 3 variables.
I really don't understand how Blizzard sees their own game. I'm a zerg player and that Hydralisk change is absolutely stupid. Seriously, how am I supposed to take the balance team of SC2 seriously when they propose ridiculous changes. How come they don't understand their own game ?
On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote: It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
Desrow despises Terran so that is to be expected.
I don't despise terran. I agree that the mothershipcore vision range is too good but the terran whiners like Avilo who are a mile away from being a tournament player should sit down and play instead of spreading bullshit as much as they can.
On February 03 2014 00:39 DinoMight wrote: Just fix the frickin maps please and that will solve like 90% of the Blink allin issues.
Seriously there has never been such an allin friendly map pool in the history of SC2. Fix that and the game will be better for Terrans in the early game.
The patches IMO don't address the actual problems (Terrans dying to Blink allins, Swarm Hosts being poorly designed).
Is this a joke? Steppes of War, Xel Naga Caverns... Incineration Zone, Slag Pits... do you remember the old maps?
I also strongly disagree that fixing the maps is the solution. Maps already have way too many constraints on them to allow Protoss to FFE, to allow Zerg to be able to get a close third, to stop the 1-1-1 from dominating TvP (the map pool fixed the 1-1-1 as maps got bigger, not Blizzard changes), to allow Protoss to get a third without dying to the Roach max, ect...
All of these problem are inherent balance problems that should have been fixed by re-balancing the game.
A good player should be able to tailor his strategy for different maps, and exploit the terrain of the map to his advantage. The maps shouldn't all be so similiar, with so many restrictions that are required for balance purposes.
I'm a high diamond zerg player, to give everyone a point of reference.
There are some major problems in lategame zvz zvp and zvt (mech only). Only one style works in the ultra late game; swarm hosts + static defense.
I saw a few games yesterday from Stephano were he went mass swarm host after he got behind a bit in the muta wars. The result was a 1 h 40 min game with just locusts fighting each other. Similar things happen vs mech or against toss death ball.
This style absolutely horrible to play and boring to watch. If you want to remove this style you need to buff zerg anti air late game and nerf swarm hosts.
Reducing the hydra cost does not address this issue at all. It affects the midgame only were strong timings will occur.
Any armor or HP buff may break pvz midgame (it will not break z v t, i tested it on the patch map), thus you need a hive hydra upgrade or greater spire corruptor upgrade to give zerg a chance in lategame without swarm hosts.
Given that hydras already have two upgrades; IMO it is better to give a lategame upgrade to corruptors.
Some interesting opinions. The tempest buff would be nice in PvZ as one of the pros said, but the damage shouldn't be too high. Everyone thinks the hydra buff is ridiculous as expected... wtf were they thinking when they suggested this buff?
Regarding the msc, the time warp nerf will affect blink all ins the most... they could also limit protoss to casting a single time warp at a time, but I believe in the case of all ins this nerf is good enough anyway. The photon overcharge nerf... I'm still not sure. What minigun said about the distance required to cast photon overcharge would actually be a smarter nerf to protoss defense imo, while not affecting PvP much. Other people talked about the range of photon overcharge, but then again nerfing the msc to oblivion isn't a very good approach either.
It's ironic that the ones who complain the most about the msc are terran players. As a matter of fact, the medivac buff was one of the biggest reasons why such solid defense became even more important for protoss. The msc is just fine in PvZ and plays a very important whole in PvP.
Most players seem to agree the ghost buff is retarded. It's just a random buff that favors unskilled players the most... not good.
I'm up for hydras getting a gas cost slash, but to compensate there will have to be nerfs to the unit (hp/armor/damage).
Ghost buff isn't really necessary either, in my opinion. It's already the best caster in the game and extremely powerful in the right hands. Lower the cost and research time of the energy upgrade if you want, but don't make it free.
Here are some suggestions either ideas from the threads here, or my ideas about those ideas. It's for as much unit viability one can make without changing the game too much. This exempts Thor/BC/Raven because they need redesign.
--MsC vision nerf to 8-9 but Mothership should get some obscene 15-21 sight and Planetary Nexus duration nerf by 10-15s. Nerf to all-ins and excessive greediness. Also gives MS a purpose.
--Armory cost decrease by 100/100. Per Avilo.
--Ghost upgrade given, saving 100/100. This does help Ghost/Mech and rarely do Ghosts get seen in PvT midgame. At the very least it draw resources away from the MMM.
--Tank transformation time buffed 20%. Tanks need more stuff and more attributes because they are still obsolete. The 8-9 sight MsC nerf allows Tank pressure, but making them more mobile and responsive will push them along into mainstream use.
--Combat shields/Stim cost increased by 50/50 each. Bio needs adjustments to normalize its power curve. The midgame swing is too volatile, necessitating overbuffing of counter units that scale to the late game.
--Storm damage nerfed 15%, buffed 30% shields. HT is too powerful in nonmirror matchups, and rarely seen in PvP outside of Archons.
--Feedback range nerfed to 8. HT is also very powerful with Feedback, enough to get a double nerf.
--Medivac now costs 175m/100g. If it wants to be multiple units, it needs to cost something more appropriate.
--Zerg 3 larva from inject. Major nerf, but needs to be done if the other races are getting big nerfs can't let Zerg overwhelm.
--Muta loses regen buff. Muta is making Mech worse, generally limits the response Protoss can make, and would be OP in addition to their next change.
--Hydra get their half gas cost. Hydras should be the basic unit of SC2, and whether willingly or unwillingly, the design team is pushing that through and will likely rebalance around it.
--Swarm Host remodeled to 3x faster spawn rate, 1/3 duration of spawn, 1/2 the hp, 3/4 the cost. Hybrid between Lurker range and the 50-60 range it has now on creep. But, dodging spines is always better micro than retreating from hostlings.
--Viper energy channel rate nerf by 10% energy/s. Vipers are doing great so if left untouched from this OP deflation they would likely become OP.
I don't really expect the drastic changes the game needs between expansions anymore, but rather stat modifications and maybe an upgrade removal.
So with that in mind, if they're going to bother touching the hydralisk I have to wonder why not experiment with buffing their dps towards biological units. Seems like a very reasonable middle ground given that their goal with this test was to encourage increased hydralisk usage in ZvZ (or rather less roach wars) and more varied compositions in ZvT.
Altering their strength against bio units really only affects those two scenarios. mech TvZ is unchanged. PvZ is mostly unchanged.
After the hydra is buffed，find a good way for Protoss to deal with it (preferably no MSC buff). Then buff the siege tank accordingly to smash hydras (as it should), also helping mech.
Wow that hydra buff would be brilliant, it would largely eliminate zerg mineral mass stockpiles and replace it with a dead enemy. Do it Blizzard, Zerg isn't supposed to be the most underpowered in it's own expo hots, it should be facerolling.
On February 03 2014 01:05 lowercase wrote: I'm up for hydras getting a gas cost slash, but to compensate there will have to be nerfs to the unit (hp/armor/damage).
Ghost buff isn't really necessary either, in my opinion. It's already the best caster in the game and extremely powerful in the right hands. Lower the cost and research time of the energy upgrade if you want, but don't make it free.
Best caster in the game?
That's why we only see it in ONE match up.
These are the kinds of incredibly biased statements that don't go anywhere in a balance discussion.
On February 03 2014 01:10 weikor wrote: I actually like the hydra buff.
This is just what this game needs imho.
After the hydra is buffed，find a good way for Protoss to deal with it (preferably no MSC buff). Then buff the siege tank accordingly to smash hydras (as it should), also helping mech.
The Hydralisk buff doesn't actually change much from a TvZ side of things. If anything it MIGHT make Hydralisks better vs pure Bio but a cost reduction doesn't really affect them vs Mech much.
If anything this will allow larger portions of the Zerg army to be Hydralisk as opposed to Roach based, which MIGHT make fighting vs Tanks easier, but not by much.
MSC vision nerf, photon overcharge as a channeling spell (allowing terran to destroy MSC and stop the overcharge) but still casting range 10, ghost is quite fine as it is (and i play mech lol), tempests are fine, hydras lol.
why not :
make locusts cost a small amount of minerals like interceptors (ex : 5 mineral per locust/per locust wave) allow the carrier to throw all its interceptors like in BW to see some carrier/tempest PvZ some proposals about oracle? too fast, too much dps and still no use in mid/late game
This post is great, but I think some people might be missing one big point in these patch changes. I don't think these changes are only having in mind balance, but also game design. Looking particularly at the Tempest and Ghost changes: the tempest is kind of a weird unit if you look at it from an outside perspective, although its strong, you can't really see why it is so weak in general as a ultimate tier unit. In that way I think the + buildings is a cool change. For the Ghost change, that upgrade is pretty much just annoying a lot of the times, since your strategy doesn't usually revolve around them (not the case with the infestor) and most people aren't counting the seconds for that particular upgrade to finish. Having that in mind, it will also just encourage timings, so that might not be the best way to go about it.
As far as the Mothership Core, I think Minigun had great points in the changes he suggested, since they not only fix the balance issues, but make the unit more interesting and unique design wise.
Despite these being design changes, they are small, so it is understandable that they aren't including the swarm hosts, which would need almost a complete redesign to be a better unit for the game, which is too bad, because most people probably agree that they are the ones who need the change the most.
Is so hard to blizzard hear the MSC vision nerf? I mean, thats the main problem with protoss in PvT, every terran is asking for it...im protoss (high dia) and even myself know the will help alot terran with blink's allin and will not affect so much the other matchups, the photon overcharge will only affect PvP...ghost buff... well guess time will tell about it... i really dont undertand the mind of balance team, buff hidra? Really? TLO say everything about it , will be a protoss nightmare...
--Zerg 3 larva from inject. Major nerf, but needs to be done if the other races are getting big nerfs can't let Zerg overwhelm.
Except you're pretty much uniformly buffing Terran, except for adding minor cost increases to stim and combat shields. Yeah, real balanced.
I'm making Medivac more mineral intensive, cutting into the mineral heavy army production of bio pretty heavily. I was thinking about a nerf to Mule instead but thought targeting Medivac would be more direct.
On February 03 2014 00:12 VArsovskiSC wrote: I'd liked to hear some of the better Pros on their opinion.. I mean don't get me wrong, but they could've certainly asked Naniwa instead of Desrow.. I mean they should've focused on those who actually DO things, instead of talk about them
Although most of them did their part well - pretty sure it would've been actually much better to ask the legit players, instead of potential rising stars IMO..
Though might be wrong cause they might say something like what Ryung said "oh, they nerfing Protoss and buffing Terran ? - cool" - so yah - doesn't help
Still - would be interested to hear what Polt and/or Taeja think about the changes overall
On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote: It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
Desrow despises Terran so that is to be expected.
I don't despise terran. I agree that the mothershipcore vision range is too good but the terran whiners like Avilo who are a mile away from being a tournament player should sit down and play instead of spreading bullshit as much as they can.
And how much tournament winnings have you accumulated? LOL.
Nice to see pros react, suprisingly close to normal community feedback.
Tempest: Not sure its needed, not playing P at all, but not a big fan of that.
MSC was designed as DEFENSIVE unit. Originally it was part of nexus, u remember?
So... vision 14? Maybe like... 3? (either u have to have it in base or you have to stick it with your army). Thats how it was originally ment to be used. Not nowadays bullshit (basically harraser/observer/crisis management unit -> timewarp). Overcharge? Needs nerf in ZvP and ZvT. Make it more expensive, so you cant cast 2 at same time? Make it with + to armored so PvP is ok but its much weaker in PvT and PvZ so some allins are possible? Overall change of overchange doesnt mean anything for zerg/terran - no possible allins, just screw up PvP (if i understand protosses correctly), so its probably second worse after....
Hydras.... just lol...
Ghost: Not a big fan (as terran). Makes maybe bio sliiightly better, offers some new timings probably, but overall completely missing the point. Reduce armory cost as someone suggested here sounds interesting tho.
Sidenote: Oracle is pretty big bullshit nowadays aswell, due to DPS, cause its sometimes hard to scout if toss is going stargate oracle or blink allin and u have to prepare for both (gl with winnning these games). If they nerf blink allins than leave it like this...
Nerf swarmhosts and Protoss late game. If ravens or mech in general becomes too strong nerf them. It'll bring less deathballish situations and more action in mid game. Just stop with the NR25 nonsense.
On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote: It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
Desrow despises Terran so that is to be expected.
I don't despise terran. I agree that the mothershipcore vision range is too good but the terran whiners like Avilo who are a mile away from being a tournament player should sit down and play instead of spreading bullshit as much as they can.
And how much tournament winnings have you accumulated? LOL.
Why they're not willing to reduce MSC's sight range is beyond me. It's currently sitting at 14, higher than any unit in the game, I believe, as a remnant of when the MSC was fixed on top of the nexus when the unit was casting photon overcharge. The cannon has 14 range, so the nexus needed to see at 14 range too. But now that the MSC doesn't stick to the nexus anymore, there is absolutely no need for such a huge sight range. I would start with putting it back in line with overlord or observer range, like 11 or something. Not a huge nerf imo, but keeping 14 doesn't make any sense at all.
Holy Smokin' Joe Fraser. Sometimes it appears as though Blizzard has no idea how changes can potentially affect the game. That Hydralisk buff is UNREAL and the Ghost buff does nothing to change TvP except to maybe give timings to Terrans, which isn't what they want... they want a late game buff to help them deal with the Deathball. The only thing the Tempest change will do is buff Rotterdam's 1 base proxy Oracle into Tempest allin.
On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote: It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
Desrow despises Terran so that is to be expected.
I don't despise terran. I agree that the mothershipcore vision range is too good but the terran whiners like Avilo who are a mile away from being a tournament player should sit down and play instead of spreading bullshit as much as they can.
And how much tournament winnings have you accumulated? LOL.
he's earned 50$ while I've earned 692$ + a missing 2140$ from this list (WCS Premier + a tournament in Quebec city last week end for 140$)
http://www.sc2earnings.com/search?search=desrow I can say you are not relevant either and you should just sit and play. You know, you're just an average streamer, same as avilo, you don't have more credit than him..
On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote: It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
Desrow despises Terran so that is to be expected.
I don't despise terran. I agree that the mothershipcore vision range is too good but the terran whiners like Avilo who are a mile away from being a tournament player should sit down and play instead of spreading bullshit as much as they can.
And how much tournament winnings have you accumulated? LOL.
It doesn't matter, you don't see desrow whining about everything. Desrow's point was that, if you're not a tournament winning player then you can improve beyond minimal balance limitations whereas at the top level of play that might not actually be possible. Also, pvt is not nearly as imbalanced as people pretend it is.
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote: It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
Desrow despises Terran so that is to be expected.
I don't despise terran. I agree that the mothershipcore vision range is too good but the terran whiners like Avilo who are a mile away from being a tournament player should sit down and play instead of spreading bullshit as much as they can.
And how much tournament winnings have you accumulated? LOL.
he's earned 50$ while I've earned 692$ + a missing 2140$ from this list (WCS Premier + a tournament in Quebec city last week end for 140$)
http://www.sc2earnings.com/search?search=desrow I can say you are not relevant either and you should just sit and play. You know, you're just an average streamer, same as avilo, you don't have more credit than him..
He 3-1d Apocalypse to qualify for WCS AM Premier, Apocalypse came close to beating Dear. desRow is way better than Avilo.
People whine every game about swarm host / spine/spore turtle galore being boring as hell, but when Blizzard tries to buff hydras to encourage zergs to play more aggressive and help zerg players with aggressive styles , the other races shit their pants , because they are too scared to play against it and they prefer the drawn out death animation when zerg gets 15+ swarm hosts and use them efficiently .
Not that i mind i prefer seeing smarter defensive players like Roro and SoulKey winning more then the mindless aggressive and clueless late game zergs like Life and Jaedong .
Also if Blizzard wants to buff zergs , other then the hydras they should be looking for ways to improve the drop/nydus tech . When was the last time you saw drop or nydus incorporated in strategies for middle/lategame ... yeah i don't remember either .
On February 03 2014 02:03 raga4ka wrote: People whine every game about swarm host / spine/spore turtle galore being boring as hell, but when Blizzard tries to buff hydras to encourage zergs to play more aggressive and help zerg players with aggressive styles , the other races shit their pants , because they are too scared to play against it and they prefer the drawn out death animation when zerg gets 15+ swarm hosts and use them efficiently .
Not that i mind i prefer seeing smarter defensive players like Roro and SoulKey winning more then the mindless aggressive and clueless late game zergs like Life and Jaedong .
Also if Blizzard wants to buff zergs , other then the hydras they should be looking for ways to improve the drop/nydus tech . When was the last time you saw drop or nydus incorporated in strategies for middle/lategame ... yeah i don't remember either .
The hydra change is quite clearly a bad change. I don't even see any zergs agreeing with this one xD... they need to nerf sh more directly and also voidray/tempest.
On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote: It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
Desrow despises Terran so that is to be expected.
I don't despise terran. I agree that the mothershipcore vision range is too good but the terran whiners like Avilo who are a mile away from being a tournament player should sit down and play instead of spreading bullshit as much as they can.
And how much tournament winnings have you accumulated? LOL.
It doesn't matter, you don't see desrow whining about everything. Desrow's point was that, if you're not a tournament winning player then you can improve beyond minimal balance limitations whereas at the top level of play that might not actually be possible. Also, pvt is not nearly as imbalanced as people pretend it is.
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
get used to it. That is how the sc2 community works. Every race has gone through that phase by now. I chose terran when I was in WOL Beta and got much shit on ladder of how OP terran is after its release. IdrA balancewhined ALOT, and I got a lot of shit from z players on ladder, because everyone bounces on the whine train and makes balance responsible for their losses. Often it is though. I sticked to terran anyway even after countless nerfs and flames on the ladder. Point is: Is your race imbalanced? Probably. Will you get shit for it? Most likely. So get used to it.
On February 03 2014 02:03 raga4ka wrote: People whine every game about swarm host / spine/spore turtle galore being boring as hell, but when Blizzard tries to buff hydras to encourage zergs to play more aggressive and help zerg players with aggressive styles , the other races shit their pants , because they are too scared to play against it and they prefer the drawn out death animation when zerg gets 15+ swarm hosts and use them efficiently .
Not that i mind i prefer seeing smarter defensive players like Roro and SoulKey winning more then the mindless aggressive and clueless late game zergs like Life and Jaedong .
Also if Blizzard wants to buff zergs , other then the hydras they should be looking for ways to improve the drop/nydus tech . When was the last time you saw drop or nydus incorporated in strategies for middle/lategame ... yeah i don't remember either .
The hydra change is quite clearly a bad change. I don't even see any zergs agreeing with this one xD... they need to nerf sh more directly and also voidray/tempest.
TlDR; read tlo's comments. Spot on
I think that nerfing sh,void,tempest and raven HSM would be the way to go or buffing zerg anti-air so queens aren´t the best AA zerg´s have. I think that weaker SH and the current raven could be a huge problem in late game tvz especially if terrane could get to that point easier with weaker SH.
On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote: It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
Desrow despises Terran so that is to be expected.
I don't despise terran. I agree that the mothershipcore vision range is too good but the terran whiners like Avilo who are a mile away from being a tournament player should sit down and play instead of spreading bullshit as much as they can.
And how much tournament winnings have you accumulated? LOL.
It doesn't matter, you don't see desrow whining about everything. Desrow's point was that, if you're not a tournament winning player then you can improve beyond minimal balance limitations whereas at the top level of play that might not actually be possible. Also, pvt is not nearly as imbalanced as people pretend it is.
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
I think avilo is a mediocre player and don't read anything of what he writes on TL, yet I'm also of the opinion that playing Protoss is easier than playing Terran at some levels. And I don't say anything to my opponent after a game, but that's beside the point. No "guru or mob balance mentality" here, please get over yourself.
I also think that Protoss players themselves have a hard time grasping how easy this matchup is really for them. They hear stuff from Terrans like "I have to prepare against a thousand builds and I can't scout!", yet, when they play the matchup, themselves practice only that 1 build that is working for them and they don't see how it could possibly be threatening beyond measure for Terran. But Protoss Ladder Hero A does Build A, Protoss Ladder Hero B does Build B, and et caetera, until Terrans seemingly meet an infinite amount of random builds that are working really well and can't defend against them all. Even those of you who are playing "standard" and defensive and not "abusing the race" as they say, you're benefitting from all of those we Terrans had to play before you who did some random all-in which insta-killed us. With the fear of XX all-in planted, Terrans make specific plans and allocate time to defend that all-in or at least scout it and you get away with your very standard build without noticing anything.
From the Terran side however, every build I can think of that would put you on the backfoot gets stopped dead by the all-mighty mothership core, except maybe that one mine drop which sometimes works...
On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote: It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
Desrow despises Terran so that is to be expected.
I don't despise terran. I agree that the mothershipcore vision range is too good but the terran whiners like Avilo who are a mile away from being a tournament player should sit down and play instead of spreading bullshit as much as they can.
And how much tournament winnings have you accumulated? LOL.
he's earned 50$ while I've earned 692$ + a missing 2140$ from this list (WCS Premier + a tournament in Quebec city last week end for 140$)
http://www.sc2earnings.com/search?search=desrow I can say you are not relevant either and you should just sit and play. You know, you're just an average streamer, same as avilo, you don't have more credit than him..
Please do not bash players in this thread. DesRow is a hard worker who has put in the time and effort to reach WCS america premier league.
He and everyone else who provided feedback did so by their own volition. They were nice enough to help us so that you the community can get an idea on their thoughts which are based in a generally very high understanding of the game based on thousands and thousands of games of experience.
All the players here were not only nice but they also had the guts to do this. Considering how the community normally reacts to balance and patches for balance many people were afraid to go on the record because of the community's potential reaction.
Thankfully the majority of this thread seems fairly reasonable.
Remember that it is a privilege to get these thoughts not a right. Borrowing from DotA and HS forums we are trying to break down a wall so that we can do more of this in the future. Personal attacks against those involved only makes this kind of post less likely in the future.
On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote: It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
Desrow despises Terran so that is to be expected.
I don't despise terran. I agree that the mothershipcore vision range is too good but the terran whiners like Avilo who are a mile away from being a tournament player should sit down and play instead of spreading bullshit as much as they can.
And how much tournament winnings have you accumulated? LOL.
he's earned 50$ while I've earned 692$ + a missing 2140$ from this list (WCS Premier + a tournament in Quebec city last week end for 140$)
http://www.sc2earnings.com/search?search=desrow I can say you are not relevant either and you should just sit and play. You know, you're just an average streamer, same as avilo, you don't have more credit than him..
Desrow is a good player and not a whiner. I ve met him during WCG in China and he s a hardworker. His input is wise and doesn't seem biased (and before you bash me because I have a Protoss icon, it s because I play P in Brood War, but in SC2 I am random)
I honestly don't get what they thought the Hydra buff would do.. now zergs can make double the amount of mutas after pressuring with ling hydra! It will never ever go through
On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote: It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
Desrow despises Terran so that is to be expected.
I don't despise terran. I agree that the mothershipcore vision range is too good but the terran whiners like Avilo who are a mile away from being a tournament player should sit down and play instead of spreading bullshit as much as they can.
And how much tournament winnings have you accumulated? LOL.
he's earned 50$ while I've earned 692$ + a missing 2140$ from this list (WCS Premier + a tournament in Quebec city last week end for 140$)
http://www.sc2earnings.com/search?search=desrow I can say you are not relevant either and you should just sit and play. You know, you're just an average streamer, same as avilo, you don't have more credit than him..
Please do not bash players in this thread. DesRow is a hard worker who has put in the time and effort to reach WCS america premier league.
He and everyone else who provided feedback did so by their own volition. They were nice enough to help us so that you the community can get an idea on their thoughts which are based in a generally very high understanding of the game based on thousands and thousands of games of experience.
All the players here were not only nice but they also had the guts to do this. Considering how the community normally reacts to balance and patches for balance many people were afraid to go on the record because of the community's potential reaction.
Thankfully the majority of this thread seems fairly reasonable.
Remember that it is a privilege to get these thoughts not a right. Borrowing from DotA and HS forums we are trying to break down a wall so that we can do more of this in the future. Personal attacks against those involved only makes this kind of post less likely in the future.
100% good on TL to do this. It is a push blizzard needs to be honest because if they stay on the current track they are...it's not good for SC2 and the entire community.
I'm sure TL has recognized themselves there are really obvious issues with the current balance of the game, and that the changes blizzard propose really do not address those issues...which is why they decided to make this thread in the first place with pro player's opinions.
On February 03 2014 02:03 raga4ka wrote: People whine every game about swarm host / spine/spore turtle galore being boring as hell, but when Blizzard tries to buff hydras to encourage zergs to play more aggressive and help zerg players with aggressive styles , the other races shit their pants , because they are too scared to play against it and they prefer the drawn out death animation when zerg gets 15+ swarm hosts and use them efficiently .
Not that i mind i prefer seeing smarter defensive players like Roro and SoulKey winning more then the mindless aggressive and clueless late game zergs like Life and Jaedong .
Also if Blizzard wants to buff zergs , other then the hydras they should be looking for ways to improve the drop/nydus tech . When was the last time you saw drop or nydus incorporated in strategies for middle/lategame ... yeah i don't remember either .
The hydra change is quite clearly a bad change. I don't even see any zergs agreeing with this one xD... they need to nerf sh more directly and also voidray/tempest.
TlDR; read tlo's comments. Spot on
TLO and zergs while i respect them for being humble and acknowledging a potentialy OP hydras even though he is zerg , i don't think that there is enough testing done before claiming something as bullshit . There has been like only 2 -3 days of testing , clearly not enough . This changes require time for people to adjust to timings accordingly .
And i would also like for Blizzard / Pros to implement a sufficient number of replays/vods from games of high skilled pros and analysis from them to back up the claim of something being broken when testing it , it would add so much more merit to their words . How can we know that this isn't just the casual whine from progamers and noobs , about their race geting nerfed , other races getting buffed mentality , fearing drastic changes to the game .
Not that i like the hydra buff so much in general . But this gives the option of zergs to choose more freely of being aggressive or defensive. I would rather see more things getting buffed , then things getting nerfed . You hear me Blizzard ? Where is my nudys / overlord and overseer drop tech buff ? I don't even play zerg i play terran , but i would rather see some diversity and some drop / nydus and banneling bomb action .
On February 03 2014 02:10 RaFox17 wrote: I think that nerfing sh,void,tempest and raven HSM would be the way to go or buffing zerg anti-air so queens aren´t the best AA zerg´s have. I think that weaker SH and the current raven could be a huge problem in late game tvz especially if terrane could get to that point easier with weaker SH.
While we are at it we should just change to WOL rather then playing HOTS . Terrans are fine the way they are in TvZ . Swarm hosts are not that much of a problem. Just because protoss haven't found an effective way to deal with SH , blizzard should nerf like 5 units , for making life easier for protoss ?
As i said i would rather see more buffing and less nerfing ...
Actually, this article gives me an idea how balancing should be done. Blizzard should take feedback only from pro gamers, so nothing new here. The new part is their opinions are published online (just like this article), and if they appear to be biased (which is judged by the community), then their reputation suffers, so they have incentive to be honest.
Obviously, such players should be top level with high reputation because they have something to lose. Otherwise, it may turn into player X is some pro gamer but on the very bottom level but doesn't care too much what others think.
On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote: It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
Desrow despises Terran so that is to be expected.
I don't despise terran. I agree that the mothershipcore vision range is too good but the terran whiners like Avilo who are a mile away from being a tournament player should sit down and play instead of spreading bullshit as much as they can.
And how much tournament winnings have you accumulated? LOL.
It doesn't matter, you don't see desrow whining about everything. Desrow's point was that, if you're not a tournament winning player then you can improve beyond minimal balance limitations whereas at the top level of play that might not actually be possible. Also, pvt is not nearly as imbalanced as people pretend it is.
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
I think avilo is a mediocre player and don't read anything of what he writes on TL, yet I'm also of the opinion that playing Protoss is easier than playing Terran at some levels. And I don't say anything to my opponent after a game, but that's beside the point. No "guru or mob balance mentality" here, please get over yourself.
I also think that Protoss players themselves have a hard time grasping how easy this matchup is really for them. They hear stuff from Terrans like "I have to prepare against a thousand builds and I can't scout!", yet, when they play the matchup, themselves practice only that 1 build that is working for them and they don't see how it could possibly be threatening beyond measure for Terran. But Protoss Ladder Hero A does Build A, Protoss Ladder Hero B does Build B, and et caetera, until Terrans seemingly meet an infinite amount of random builds that are working really well and can't defend against them all. Even those of you who are playing "standard" and defensive and not "abusing the race" as they say, you're benefitting from all of those we Terrans had to play before you who did some random all-in which insta-killed us. With the fear of XX all-in planted, Terrans make specific plans and allocate time to defend that all-in or at least scout it and you get away with your very standard build without noticing anything.
From the Terran side however, every build I can think of that would put you on the backfoot gets stopped dead by the all-mighty mothership core, except maybe that one mine drop which sometimes works...
hahahahahaha. What he says is true about balance whine from the majority of opponents. It's gotten so bad that I left NA ladder for KR because I'd rather get a GG than GM league. It's amazing how oblivious people can be to the hate mongering and balance whine produced by their own community, whether it's from a stream chat, the comments on SCreddit, LR threads, or the ladder. "Get over yourself." hahahaha
As a zerg player I like the time warp change. Kinda indifferent towards the ghost change. The biggest change is obviously the hydra change which I think is a bad idea. As fun as it would be to do crazy ling-hydra aggression while stockpiling a boat load of gas and transitioning into a huge muta ball would be fun, but it would kinda break ZvP or at least make the matchup too one dimensional. I would feel better about some of the alternatives mentioned by TLO
Damn no one likes the hydra buff. I am so sick of mass muta games. Since the start of HOTS I thought it might be possible to have hydra focused games but always mutas.
Come on blizzard, do something to make hydras usable please.
I have no idea why they ever let the hydra buff get even CLOSE to being in the game. It was okay when they initially announced it, because that was just them talking about their thoughts on balance, but that getting on the test map is just wasting everyone's time.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
So if protoss got a random buff, then zerg, I guess terran is next. Maybe banshee or viking buff? "To help mech".
Maybe the Blizzard balance team have been watching a lot of Starbow recently and are feeling nostalgic about hydra openings... this can only mean that the lurker is coming back in the next PTR.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
So if protoss got a random buff, then zerg, I guess terran is next. Maybe banshee or viking buff? "To help mech".
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Of all the hydra buffs, they choose this. As TLO said, the reasonable things to even CONSIDER for hydra is +1 armor/+10 HP. These ideas have been around for years, including when hydras were super shitty in WOL, but apparently Blizz doesn't give a shit about those ideas and thinks cutting their limiting resource cost in half is much better instead. WTF.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.
On February 03 2014 02:28 Winterhearted wrote: I wish blizzard to have more adequate and responsible Starcraft 2 balance team.
I just wish they balanced more from an intuitive, game-lover's perspective rather than a stats-based system. The problem with stats is that if you're metrics are off you can think the game is balanced when it's not. The community feels the disconnect and gets frustrated. And moreso than just "balance" I think they should rethink keeping some awful mechanics in the game (colossi, medivacs, mules, corruptors, force fields, etc) and just nix them in favour of more nuanced units that might make the game more interesting.
Also, it's 2014 and we don't have drop reconnects? Come on.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.
What other playstyles?
sorry, "try" to increase the viability of other playstyles.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.
What other playstyles?
sorry, "try" to increase the viability of other playstyles.
This is just another example about the clear disconnect between players and Blizzard. I hope that Blizzard will address their map makers too since there has been a resounding cry from the community that this new wave of maps aren't that great (Daedalus point at least). Hopefully Blizzard will take more feedback from the pro players.
Those guys who commented on vision nerf are right on the money. Having high ground vision and denying high ground vision is the most important aspect of stopping or delaying an aggressive play.
In WoL, observer could be sniped and therefore delay the push. In TvT once you lose your high ground vision, you need to retreat.
In Hots TvP, huge sight radius + low range on terran early game units like marines make high ground vision uncontested and allow protoss to put pressure for as long as they want. This is incredibly bad for the game because it considerably increases number of entry points on blink favored maps.
I also agree that reducing PO by 10 seconds means nothing because the threat of protoss aggression alone makes it impossible for terran to be on the map. It is like going on the map with "naked marines" against speedlings.
As far as time warp goes, it is true that the first one is most important. No matter if it is casted on the ramp to prevent army from coming down or if protoss blinks next to a vespene geyser and slows down terran units by casting that 1st time warp, it is almost always that 1st one that decides the outcome of the blink aggression.
Should try to hook up and ask the top tier Koreans since that's who David Kim gets his feed back from and those are the pros he balances around. No offense to some of the NA players asked but the ones he asked are pretty biased when it comes to balance questions, especially Desrow. Would be interesting what some of the Korean zergs feel. Nice feed back though from the Korean Protoss and Terrans asked.
It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.
What other playstyles?
sorry, "try" to increase the viability of other playstyles.
But what do you call "other playstyles"?
Things that are not "sit back and build Colossi. then hit a timing". E.g. they introduced recall and oracles for that reason in HotS. They buffed warp prisms twice to give protoss nondeathball options. they redesigned the VR and it allows for airbased play in ZvP. They did a lot to move Protoss away from defensive Collossus and Sentry turtle. Now the problem is that P can play too many aggressvie openings and play macro from them.
Im not happy with TvP either, but it's quite hypocritical to have people whine about oracle openings not being an autoloss when scouted but on the same page whine about Protoss design leading to deathball play. Well, nondeathball play means you have units that do damage and get away and are viable. That's what the speedbuff did. now it's time to give Terran options to force Protoss to use those tools more often. (and do something against blink allins imo)
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote: It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.
Blizzard should focus more on making the game fun with more useful spells, build options, and dynamic units. They spend to much time on these micro fixes to help with one scenario in one matchup. Those are the situations that the pros should be able to figure out their own balance if the dynamics of the game allowed it.
We are on a path where each unit is going to do 5 different damages and all upgrades will be free. Blizzard is just patching themselves in a circle.
glad to know what I was thinking was on the same track as most (if not all) of these guys...25 gas for hydras? thats insane! And the ghost buff is really a timing thing...only saves you 100/100 for mobeus, but that upgrade is only 80 seconds anyways...needs more direct "minor" buffs instead of significant "indirect" buffs that blizzard is going for imo...
If you ask me, they should just nerf both units they're trying to make balanced and work from there instead of just buffing everything each time...maybe they'll find a median from it afterwards?
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.
What other playstyles?
sorry, "try" to increase the viability of other playstyles.
But what do you call "other playstyles"?
Things that are not "sit back and build Colossi. then hit a timing". E.g. they introduced recall and oracles for that reason in HotS. They buffed warp prisms twice to give protoss nondeathball options. they redesigned the VR and it allows for airbased play in ZvP. They did a lot to move Protoss away from defensive Collossus and Sentry turtle. Now the problem is that P can play too many aggressvie openings and play macro from them.
Im not happy with TvP either, but it's quite hypocritical to have people whine about oracle openings not being an autoloss when scouted but on the same page whine about Protoss design leading to deathball play. Well, nondeathball play means you have units that do damage and get away and are viable. That's what the speedbuff did. now it's time to give Terran options to force Protoss to use those tools more often. (and do something against blink allins imo)
Thing is, just because you send an Oracle or some Zealots for harass doesn't mean you're not building some "deathball" at home. Oracles being out of control or Zealots raids rampaging Terran bases would not be a problem if, meanwhile, Protoss' army was not growing exponentially stronger thanks to the accumulation of "terrible, terrible damage" units. It's good that they tried to "normalize" Protoss play, but they completely failed to properly balance it. For instance, you cannot have the best harass and the best lategame; it makes no sense.
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote: It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.
Hi Des,
I guess I am being a bit harsh in my wording. The "bias" that I was seeing here is how accepting you were to the overcharge nerf. It's a very minor and although I can't comment on PvP, I'm gona have to agree with the majority of responses here in saying that it will do nothing for TvP. When we accept a change, we are inadvertently rejecting other changes such as the proposed vision nerf on the mscore, which would be a bigger nerf to protoss. Perhaps you didn't mean it like that but I think it's time for the community to realize that by accepting a balance change, we are foregoing alternative changes that may help the game design a bit more.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.
What other playstyles?
sorry, "try" to increase the viability of other playstyles.
But what do you call "other playstyles"?
Things that are not "sit back and build Colossi. then hit a timing". E.g. they introduced recall and oracles for that reason in HotS. They buffed warp prisms twice to give protoss nondeathball options. they redesigned the VR and it allows for airbased play in ZvP. They did a lot to move Protoss away from defensive Collossus and Sentry turtle. Now the problem is that P can play too many aggressvie openings and play macro from them.
Im not happy with TvP either, but it's quite hypocritical to have people whine about oracle openings not being an autoloss when scouted but on the same page whine about Protoss design leading to deathball play. Well, nondeathball play means you have units that do damage and get away and are viable. That's what the speedbuff did. now it's time to give Terran options to force Protoss to use those tools more often. (and do something against blink allins imo)
Thing is, just because you send an Oracle or some Zealots for harass doesn't mean you're not building some "deathball" at home. Oracles being out of control or Zealots raids rampaging Terran bases would not be a problem if, meanwhile, Protoss' army was not growing exponentially stronger thanks to the accumulation of "terrible, terrible damage" units. It's good that they tried to "normalize" Protoss play, but they completely failed to properly balance it. For instance, you cannot have the best harass and the best lategame; it makes no sense.
spot on, trying to give protoss non deathball tools that are extremely powerful while still leaving the deathball untouched is insane.
What if they made Photon Overcharge 20+20 armored, but have a longer cooldown between shots? That would make stimmed marine runbys more powerful, but would destroy stalkers in PvP scenarios at least as effectively as before.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.
What other playstyles?
You know the basics:
4 gate proxy stalker proxy oracle Oracle gateway bust Genius Void Ray Bust Soul Train Squirtle 2 base stalker colossus Chargelot Storm all-ins Chargelot archon all-ins Anypro Anytime Naniwa's Double Dare The Seed max out Soul Plane The Inca Special Triple Double The Huk YOLO Choya Gate Stardust Bust Warp Prism Express The Cannon rush in 3 flavors: Hero, Bubbles, sOs The Ruinious Wall The Way of Hongun
On February 03 2014 01:05 lowercase wrote: I'm up for hydras getting a gas cost slash, but to compensate there will have to be nerfs to the unit (hp/armor/damage).
Ghost buff isn't really necessary either, in my opinion. It's already the best caster in the game and extremely powerful in the right hands. Lower the cost and research time of the energy upgrade if you want, but don't make it free.
This is right on about Hydras, screw the free unit BL/Swarm Host those units have clear flaws that are not fun to watch.
If they can get the hydra right so that is very massable yet a bit weaker, we could see a lot more ACTION in MU's. Now when you forge FE you have to worry about hydra busts. Now the Z can take more map control, but the toss can try and let them over expand and then do powerful pushes in the mid game. We need this kind of tension badly in this game. That is where the excitement will come from.
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote: It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
How are pros supposed to have an informed opinion about a matchup they don't play? There's 6 matchups in this game and I only give a shit about 3 of them, I expect most pros are similar. I can't make an informed comment on how a photon overcharge nerf will affect other matchups and I shouldn't be expected to. I'm a terran, I think this or that about about the MSC in TvP, take that for what it's worth.
And of course we're biased to our own races. How would anyone who makes their livelihood playing this game want it to become harder for them? Our job isn't to be impartial arbiters of reason, our job is to say what we think and why and let it all percolate in the mind of whoever's in charge of making such decisions.
Not trying to have a go at you, just explaining why things are and why it's reasonable (sort of).
On February 03 2014 04:00 desRow wrote: How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!?.
I'm not sure I have heard any one else looking to reduce defender's advantage in PvP.
The changes are pretty funny, I've already race switched from Protoss to Terran incase that Hydra buff goes through, seriously ZvP is already macro-favored for the Zerg, 4 25 gas hydras means one more mutalisk wtf. A less extreme change would be hydra's that cost 75/50. Also the map pool is Zerg favored anyway. Daedulus Point, Habit Station. If anything this change will force even more all ins from Protoss as its possible to max out on pure hydra ling in 13 minutes.
MSC Nerf: Wrong approach, I don't think Blizzard ever reads the forums :D
Ghost:Won't fix anything in lower leagues
Tempests: Maybe this will force Zerg to all in more but there long range already makes it hard to kill
Glad to see the pro players coming forward to speak their mind, this was long overdue. Hopefully the shit flinging also stops otherwise we won't get any more of these in the future.
A lot of what they said mostly reflects my thoughts on the patch, now hopefully Blizzard also listens.
Zerg player here. Hydra change would probably break the meta. One unmentioned build that greatly benefits from less hydra gas costs is any nydus allin as you very often lack gas to get enough Hydras up fast enough. This patch would fix that. It may seem like a niche build, but believe me, the extra Hydras you could get out matter so much it's ridiculous.
Can't really talk about the other changes. MSC nerf doesn't really do much in most situation as the problem with the spell is not the CD but the fact that it instantly shuts down any agression (like you would have to feign agression while planning for a timing attack that aims for Nexus cannon cd? Sounds ridiculously coinflippy because if he realizes what you're doing he just won't use overcharge and is massively ahead).
Pro's seem just as biased as the people in any other balance thread... Which of course is understandable, if they can affect indirectly how much money theyll earn as their race gets stronger, they have very strong motive.
On February 03 2014 01:53 Shebuha wrote: Holy Smokin' Joe Fraser. Sometimes it appears as though Blizzard has no idea how changes can potentially affect the game. That Hydralisk buff is UNREAL and the Ghost buff does nothing to change TvP except to maybe give timings to Terrans, which isn't what they want... they want a late game buff to help them deal with the Deathball. The only thing the Tempest change will do is buff Rotterdam's 1 base proxy Oracle into Tempest allin.
Is there a VOD of that build? That is the best Rotterdam build yet!
On February 03 2014 04:00 desRow wrote: How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!?.
I'm not sure I have heard any one else looking to reduce defender's advantage in PvP.
In my opinion, If being agressive is more viable, games will be more exciting and action packed (not that they aren't) but it will be even more.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.
What other playstyles?
You know the basics:
4 gate proxy stalker proxy oracle Oracle gateway bust Genius Void Ray Bust Soul Train Squirtle 2 base stalker colossus Chargelot Storm all-ins Chargelot archon all-ins Anypro Anytime Naniwa's Double Dare The Seed max out Soul Plane The Inca Special Triple Double The Huk YOLO Choya Gate Stardust Bust Warp Prism Express The Cannon rush in 3 flavors: Hero, Bubbles, sOs The Ruinious Wall The Way of Hongun
You forgot the Nony-14 sentry rush vs zerg. All flashlights all the time.
i still dont understand protoss saying that the photon overcharge nerf will fuck pvp up its 10s not that much at all if you lose because of that its not because of a 10s nerf its cause you did something wrong its 10s.
On February 03 2014 05:01 DooMDash wrote: I don't feel like Blizzard is getting any balance ideas from pros after reading things like this.
This.
Even if I don't play anymore: Reading through the lines of those pros was like "yeah I like, uh I don't like it, this OP bla". Why? In depth analysis? Suggestions? This is worth nothing.
On February 03 2014 05:33 starslayer wrote: i still dont understand protoss saying that the photon overcharge nerf will fuck pvp up its 10s not that much at all if you lose because of that its not because of a 10s nerf its cause you did something wrong its 10s.
That's because you don't understand PvP. If my opponent is doing a 1 base all-in vs. my expand build, I need as much time as I can possibly get to get some essential tech out to defend. I will never have more units then they will, since I will not have the time to make workers to get a higher income, so I need to hold the nexus with fewer units. That means it basically has to be some form of tech unit, like an immortal. 10 seconds is a huge difference in whether I can get it out in time or not.
PvP very frequently is won or lost in less time than 10 seconds.
For the life of me, I don't understand why Blizzard doesn't ask the pros before they send out a test patch, and listening to what the pros think should be patched, instead of hearing their reactions to it afterwards. Like, do they really think they have a better idea of what will help balance, more than the people that are actually playing the game all day, every day...?
Sheesh, those hydras...
Like, I'm curious- does Blizzard hope to, one day, not need to make any more patches, and leave the game as is, or do they want to do semi-often patches to change up the game (ala Dota)? It sounds like the former, but they're going about doing it completely backwards.
On February 03 2014 05:33 starslayer wrote: i still dont understand protoss saying that the photon overcharge nerf will fuck pvp up its 10s not that much at all if you lose because of that its not because of a 10s nerf its cause you did something wrong its 10s.
That's because you don't understand PvP. If my opponent is doing a 1 base all-in vs. my expand build, I need as much time as I can possibly get to get some essential tech out to defend. I will never have more units then they will, since I will not have the time to make workers to get a higher income, so I need to hold the nexus with fewer units. That means it basically has to be some form of tech unit, like an immortal. 10 seconds is a huge difference in whether I can get it out in time or not.
PvP very frequently is won or lost in less time than 10 seconds.
Ofcourse 10 seconds are critical in PvP to hold a 1 base play , dont hold yourself from nerfing overcharge to the ground because of it please.(10 seconds arent enough to make me happy though)
If overcharge is really needed in PvP make it stronger against protoss plasma shield or something..overcharge is the best defense in the game cost wise and you dont even need to prepare for it - you'll get the msc anyway.you dont need to be skilled or smart to use it either.
Not to mention protoss has the best defensive effects even without it.(timewarp/storm/forcefield/warpin)
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote: It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.
Hi Des,
I guess I am being a bit harsh in my wording. The "bias" that I was seeing here is how accepting you were to the overcharge nerf. It's a very minor and although I can't comment on PvP, I'm gona have to agree with the majority of responses here in saying that it will do nothing for TvP. When we accept a change, we are inadvertently rejecting other changes such as the proposed vision nerf on the mscore, which would be a bigger nerf to protoss. Perhaps you didn't mean it like that but I think it's time for the community to realize that by accepting a balance change, we are foregoing alternative changes that may help the game design a bit more.
So what you're basically saying is that Desrow, one of the very best players in the entire western hemisphere (just to give a bit of perspective, I know that most of the talent is in EU and KR), is wrong. That your opinion on what the appropriate balance change is is more accurate than his opinion. I'm sorry, but you really shouldn't directly challenge a player who is that much more knowledgeable than you. I mean, you can have a different opinion. Most other top players prefer a sight nerf on the MSC over what blizzard is doing, after all. The problem here is that you don't know why they think that, or why Desrow thinks that Blizzard's proposed changes are sufficient. Desrow is very active on these forums; he probably knew for a while now that most people prefer the sight range nerf, which means he most likely knows his opinion is unusual, which means he is going to put in a fair bit of effort to refine his belief and make sure it is correct. The thing is, he has thousands of hours of experience in SC2 from which to make decisions. He has hundreds, maybe even thousands, of timings, build orders, hard counters, tactical adjustments and the like percolating in his head. All of these things come into alignment in his brain when he makes decisions about the game. As you can imagine, this means his opinion holds a lot of weight and that he has darn good reasons to believe what he does. Same deal for everyone else at his level of play. When you're going up against someone THAT knowledgeable, with THAT much authority on their side, you need to explain why his opinion is wrong in order for your opinion to be valid at all, and that is something I very much doubt you are able to do.
On February 03 2014 05:52 soon.Cloak wrote: For the life of me, I don't understand why Blizzard doesn't ask the pros before they send out a test patch, and listening to what the pros think should be patched, instead of hearing their reactions to it afterwards. Like, do they really think they have a better idea of what will help balance, more than the people that are actually playing the game all day, every day...?
Sheesh, those hydras...
Like, I'm curious- does Blizzard hope to, one day, not need to make any more patches, and leave the game as is, or do they want to do semi-often patches to change up the game (ala Dota)? It sounds like the former, but they're going about doing it completely backwards.
iirc, David Kim was on record a while ago saying that pros don't understand balance at all. Or something similar.
On February 03 2014 05:33 starslayer wrote: i still dont understand protoss saying that the photon overcharge nerf will fuck pvp up its 10s not that much at all if you lose because of that its not because of a 10s nerf its cause you did something wrong its 10s.
That's because you don't understand PvP. If my opponent is doing a 1 base all-in vs. my expand build, I need as much time as I can possibly get to get some essential tech out to defend. I will never have more units then they will, since I will not have the time to make workers to get a higher income, so I need to hold the nexus with fewer units. That means it basically has to be some form of tech unit, like an immortal. 10 seconds is a huge difference in whether I can get it out in time or not.
PvP very frequently is won or lost in less time than 10 seconds.
Ofcourse 10 seconds are critical in PvP to hold a 1 base play , dont hold yourself from nerfing overcharge to the ground because of it please.(10 seconds arent enough to make me happy though)
If overcharge is really needed in PvP make it stronger against protoss plasma shield or something..overcharge is the best defense in the game cost wise and you dont even need to prepare for it - you'll get the msc anyway.you dont need to be skilled or smart to use it either.
Not to mention protoss has the best defensive effects even without it.(timewarp/storm/forcefield/warpin)
It's not the damage of photon overcharge that matters in PvP at all, it's the length of time. It can do 100 damage a shot and wouldn't be good enough in PvP to defend an expand if it doesn't last a full minute. The problem is that the enemy just moves out of range, continues to warp in units, and then when the duration expires, walks in with his superior unit count and kills you for expanding. You have to buy time to get out some kind of tech counter.
PvP is currently already in atrocious shape as a matchup.
On February 02 2014 23:02 Scoobers wrote: I think it's funny how Korean Protoss pros seem scared shitless by any terran buff while Minigun has the ballz to talk about what should be nerfed for PvT and with his suggestion for what should be nerfed he is totally right imo.
I think they shouldn't change overcharge duration due to PvP but if P can feel so safe early game vs Terran (not sure about zerg but hey probably also) I think Terran shouldn't be wondering first 7-8 minutes what the hell is the protoss gonna fuck him with because Protoss has SO many viable openings that cannot be defended with the press of a button - Oracles, DTs, blink, gateway all ins, void ray all ins and their all apart from gate way all ins done with 2 gas and HOW the hell are you supposed to know without scouting entire map what is going on? Again, I would be fine with that if Terran also had quite a few viable openings vs Protoss but they dont so I think protoss ones shouldnt be as deadly as they currently are.
My suggestiongs: -nerf MSC vision to 10 and nexus overcharge casting range to 6-7 (won't affect PvP that much) -Don't remove the ghost ubgrade, give tanks EMP shells or what Goody suggested that tanks should fire with less damage but more often and redesign the warhound properly for Lotv god damnit. The only point in which I think that Ghosts should get the buff you suggested is because of those ridiculous storm zealot archon all ins we see a lot nowadays with 2 armor, ridiculously good, 5 bunkers ih having trouble stopping that shit lol. -Turrets without ebay or 75 mins per turret -oracle speed should get buffed Kappa - nerf time warp as you wanted That would be a start to see how it plays out, obviously P being so good defensively while macroing in your main with a warp prism is funny too just like the micro potential of that race but lets leave it. -Avilo suggested a really good change just couple posts above mine, take a look at that and listen, at least for once to what that man is saying even though you probably shitlisted him long time ago already.
Tempest buff wont change much in PvZ and will make it another all in to scout for in TvP (as day9 said protoss has over 400 all ins to choose from already), to change PvZ you have to make it possible to engage the protoss death ball somehow because their army just like terrans and very often just melts away to lazors and storms so theyre forced to go swarm hosts.
I honestly think hydra buff doesnt need any discussion, everyone will switch to zerg if it goes through haha
P.S. Grubby, during Asus ROG you could have ballz to not deny the fact that Protoss is raping terran man, shame on you dude really. Im afraid that is to be expected from you because youre the one that played orc in WC3 afterall, so did I but I had the ballz that admit it was too strong.
I lol'd at that P.S........ Grubby was imba in wc3 before Orc was considered imba. The players who were dominant when Orc was imba were Lyn, viOLet and Fly100%. Even then, Remind was winning almost every single tournament world wide, and he was Night Elf. Humans still made it to a pretty good amount of finals as well, it was only undead that was underpowered. They were decent against NE and HU but UP against Orc, this their downfall. TeD still made it to a few semi finals though.
Protoss is the best race right now, but it's not as huge of a deal as you're trying to make it out to be. The problems will get fixed, even if blizzard makes a few mistakes along the way. It's not like wc3, where things only got imba because blizzard completely threw the game under the bus.
I dislike timewarp, swarm host and planetary nexus. Opening protoss builds were made far, far to easy in Hots I think.
Lategame toss was strong enough in WoL. With storm and colossus, timewarps on a bio army is just straight up unfair. Tempest monsterkilling buildings in addition to this would just be ridiculous.
Obviously protoss early game was a lot more fragile in WoL, but it was one of the few things allowing terrans to get an edge. Kinda like TvP always feels a bit risky in BW until you get tanks and stuff.
On February 02 2014 23:02 Scoobers wrote: I think it's funny how Korean Protoss pros seem scared shitless by any terran buff while Minigun has the ballz to talk about what should be nerfed for PvT and with his suggestion for what should be nerfed he is totally right imo.
I think they shouldn't change overcharge duration due to PvP but if P can feel so safe early game vs Terran (not sure about zerg but hey probably also) I think Terran shouldn't be wondering first 7-8 minutes what the hell is the protoss gonna fuck him with because Protoss has SO many viable openings that cannot be defended with the press of a button - Oracles, DTs, blink, gateway all ins, void ray all ins and their all apart from gate way all ins done with 2 gas and HOW the hell are you supposed to know without scouting entire map what is going on? Again, I would be fine with that if Terran also had quite a few viable openings vs Protoss but they dont so I think protoss ones shouldnt be as deadly as they currently are.
My suggestiongs: -nerf MSC vision to 10 and nexus overcharge casting range to 6-7 (won't affect PvP that much) -Don't remove the ghost ubgrade, give tanks EMP shells or what Goody suggested that tanks should fire with less damage but more often and redesign the warhound properly for Lotv god damnit. The only point in which I think that Ghosts should get the buff you suggested is because of those ridiculous storm zealot archon all ins we see a lot nowadays with 2 armor, ridiculously good, 5 bunkers ih having trouble stopping that shit lol. -Turrets without ebay or 75 mins per turret -oracle speed should get buffed Kappa - nerf time warp as you wanted That would be a start to see how it plays out, obviously P being so good defensively while macroing in your main with a warp prism is funny too just like the micro potential of that race but lets leave it. -Avilo suggested a really good change just couple posts above mine, take a look at that and listen, at least for once to what that man is saying even though you probably shitlisted him long time ago already.
Tempest buff wont change much in PvZ and will make it another all in to scout for in TvP (as day9 said protoss has over 400 all ins to choose from already), to change PvZ you have to make it possible to engage the protoss death ball somehow because their army just like terrans and very often just melts away to lazors and storms so theyre forced to go swarm hosts.
I honestly think hydra buff doesnt need any discussion, everyone will switch to zerg if it goes through haha
P.S. Grubby, during Asus ROG you could have ballz to not deny the fact that Protoss is raping terran man, shame on you dude really. Im afraid that is to be expected from you because youre the one that played orc in WC3 afterall, so did I but I had the ballz that admit it was too strong.
I lol'd at that P.S........ Grubby was imba in wc3 before Orc was considered imba. The players who were dominant when Orc was imba were Lyn, viOLet and Fly100%. Even then, Remind was winning almost every single tournament world wide, and he was Night Elf. Humans still made it to a pretty good amount of finals as well, it was only undead that was underpowered. They were decent against NE and HU but UP against Orc, this their downfall. TeD still made it to a few semi finals though.
Protoss is the best race right now, but it's not as huge of a deal as you're trying to make it out to be. The problems will get fixed, even if blizzard makes a few mistakes along the way. It's not like wc3, where things only got imba because blizzard completely threw the game under the bus.
That depends how you define huge. It is obviously enough for protoss to make almost 50% of Code S.. same thing goes for Proleague and GM league as well. On top of that recent tournament results show protoss to be most successful race with two consecutive PvP finals + super high placement rate in Code S qualifiers.
This all might not be much when viewed separately but when you look at it as a whole it is obvious protoss has an edge at high level of play.
Rather than decreasing the Hydralisk cost so there would be even more crazy muta transitions they should focus on actually giving hydralisks more self-defense 'cause they're useless without any meat-shield units in front...
On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote: It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view, desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying * minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
Desrow despises Terran so that is to be expected.
I don't despise terran. I agree that the mothershipcore vision range is too good but the terran whiners like Avilo who are a mile away from being a tournament player should sit down and play instead of spreading bullshit as much as they can.
And how much tournament winnings have you accumulated? LOL.
he's earned 50$ while I've earned 692$ + a missing 2140$ from this list (WCS Premier + a tournament in Quebec city last week end for 140$)
http://www.sc2earnings.com/search?search=desrow I can say you are not relevant either and you should just sit and play. You know, you're just an average streamer, same as avilo, you don't have more credit than him..
Please do not bash players in this thread. DesRow is a hard worker who has put in the time and effort to reach WCS america premier league.
He and everyone else who provided feedback did so by their own volition. They were nice enough to help us so that you the community can get an idea on their thoughts which are based in a generally very high understanding of the game based on thousands and thousands of games of experience.
All the players here were not only nice but they also had the guts to do this. Considering how the community normally reacts to balance and patches for balance many people were afraid to go on the record because of the community's potential reaction.
Thankfully the majority of this thread seems fairly reasonable.
Remember that it is a privilege to get these thoughts not a right. Borrowing from DotA and HS forums we are trying to break down a wall so that we can do more of this in the future. Personal attacks against those involved only makes this kind of post less likely in the future.
Not bashing myself, but I'd like to point out that you shouldn't let Desrow bash Avilo either. It's great to get feedback from pretty much anyone who plays a lot, having Desrow in the OP shouldn't make him immune in the rest of the thread.
On February 03 2014 06:42 Faust852 wrote: I got a warning for saying Desrow is at best as valuable as Avilo, but Desrow saying Avilo is trash is totally ok...
He didn't say anything that isn't true about Avilo. When Avilo didn't qualify for WCS, he instantly blamed stream cheating and a bunch of other nonsense. He is a well known balance whiner, like Idra in his day. And if Idra proved anything, its that complaining about balance doesn't win tournaments or get you qualified for anything.
On February 03 2014 06:42 Faust852 wrote: I got a warning for saying Desrow is at best as valuable as Avilo, but Desrow saying Avilo is trash is totally ok...
Desrow did not say avilo was trash, he said he was far away from being a main player in tournaments, which is true.
On February 03 2014 05:33 starslayer wrote: i still dont understand protoss saying that the photon overcharge nerf will fuck pvp up its 10s not that much at all if you lose because of that its not because of a 10s nerf its cause you did something wrong its 10s.
That's because you don't understand PvP. If my opponent is doing a 1 base all-in vs. my expand build, I need as much time as I can possibly get to get some essential tech out to defend. I will never have more units then they will, since I will not have the time to make workers to get a higher income, so I need to hold the nexus with fewer units. That means it basically has to be some form of tech unit, like an immortal. 10 seconds is a huge difference in whether I can get it out in time or not.
PvP very frequently is won or lost in less time than 10 seconds.
first maybe dont do 1 gate expo vs a one base all in you can scout what protoss is doing and you can make more gates rather then make a nexus lol also theres a thing called chrono that would get that immortal out in time
On February 03 2014 06:42 Faust852 wrote: I got a warning for saying Desrow is at best as valuable as Avilo, but Desrow saying Avilo is trash is totally ok...
Objectively, Desrow's WCS Premier spot is more impressive than what avilo has produced in terms of results. This doesn't necessarily make one or the other more qualified to talk about balance, but in terms of results alone Desrow is definitely avilo's superior.
On February 03 2014 06:42 Faust852 wrote: I got a warning for saying Desrow is at best as valuable as Avilo, but Desrow saying Avilo is trash is totally ok...
Desrow did not say avilo was trash, he said he was far away from being a main player in tournaments, which is true.
Well, we are going off topic with this, but which foreigner except maybe Scarlett and Naniwa (when he decides to show up) are really "main players in tournaments" ?
So by that reasoning, we should dismiss all foreign balance whine/suggestions/discussions etc.
Avilo has a really bad approach at "discussing" balance but he also sometimes has good points.
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote: It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.
balance whiners?
How about the sad zealot Fanclub? or did protoss forget about that? why is protoss using winrate now instead of tournament winners (like they did before protoss were winning tournaments, now that tournament finals are PvP, they want to talk about win rate instead of tournament winners? wtF? .
A fresh MsC? With the range and time wrap, how are you going to lose you MsC?
On February 03 2014 06:42 Faust852 wrote: I got a warning for saying Desrow is at best as valuable as Avilo, but Desrow saying Avilo is trash is totally ok...
That's because what you said was stupid. You said that Desrow is the same as Avilo and that is wrong. Is avilo in premier league? No didn't think so. Desrow streams a lot, but he was also able to make it to premier league where as Avilo is in the same spot as before (no results, just streams a lot), QQ'ing like non other and raging about balance because he can't turtle for 1 hour and then win.
On February 03 2014 06:21 Holytornados wrote: Dem hydras getting so much hate T_T
To be fair though, that is an insane buff and will make Z stupid op again. Kinda like when they drastically changed the queens a few years ago =P?
I am not much of an PvZ expert but with such drastic cost decrease it even isn't about hydras getting to strong. It is more about forcing a robo response from protoss (colossus) and then have more gas for a muta switch.
Not sure if that is viable but with 50-25 gas reduction this could become a problem.
Besides if they want to change anything in PvZ, I think Swarmhost is the unit that needs most attention. It is not necessarily too strong but it promotes passive and boring gameplay.
On February 03 2014 06:42 Faust852 wrote: I got a warning for saying Desrow is at best as valuable as Avilo, but Desrow saying Avilo is trash is totally ok...
That's because what you said was stupid. You said that Desrow is the same as Avilo and that is wrong. Is avilo in premier league? No didn't think so. Desrow streams a lot, but he was also able to make it to premier league where as Avilo is in the same spot as before (no results, just streams a lot), QQ'ing like non other and raging about balance because he can't turtle for 1 hour and then win.
He just got his lucky time, helped by a metagame that might have help him a shit ton. Blink allin good strat yo. I'm not saying Avilo is good or desrow is bad. They had the same level few weeks ago, and I still think they have a similar level. Just look at the ladder and see how close they are to each other. Plus i'm not the one who discredited Avilo saying "he should shut up and play", it's desrow's saying.
The approach to "buffing" by just cutting out upgrades is just stupid. Not that something like energy upgrades are exciting but it is just lazy to do that.
On the actual patch i don´t understand why they aren´t even trying on the MSC vision range. Its a friking flying nexus. For what is it? Early game scouting? I thought the non-research halluzination (urgs!) was for that purpose.
I knew as soon as I realised TL were reaching out to pros that they were trying to stop some sort of crazyness in this patch (I hadn't seen the patch notes before). That hydra buff is ridiculous lol. If you were going to change anything about their cost do it with the minerals, not gas. I still think 75/50 would be too cheap anyway.
I wasn't aware anyone thought hydras were still weak since the speed buff in Hots, I see them used frequently. I think they're maybe trying to do it as a counter to terran mech compositions, but it's the wrong unit to be buffing for that matchup.
Avilo, Avilo, Avilo, Avilo, Avilo. Thoughts from real pros are finally introduced and you still have to hear about delusional Avilo. A guy that could lose 100 games in a row in a mirror mu and never even once stop to analyze his own play/mistakes. Give the guy his own thread and site, jesus.
On February 03 2014 05:33 starslayer wrote: i still dont understand protoss saying that the photon overcharge nerf will fuck pvp up its 10s not that much at all if you lose because of that its not because of a 10s nerf its cause you did something wrong its 10s.
That's because you don't understand PvP. If my opponent is doing a 1 base all-in vs. my expand build, I need as much time as I can possibly get to get some essential tech out to defend. I will never have more units then they will, since I will not have the time to make workers to get a higher income, so I need to hold the nexus with fewer units. That means it basically has to be some form of tech unit, like an immortal. 10 seconds is a huge difference in whether I can get it out in time or not.
PvP very frequently is won or lost in less time than 10 seconds.
first maybe dont do 1 gate expo vs a one base all in you can scout what protoss is doing and you can make more gates rather then make a nexus lol also theres a thing called chrono that would get that immortal out in time
You literally can't scout in PvP during various timings, you have to commit to a build before you know what your opponent is doing. That's why it's a coin flip. There is literally no such thing as any safe form of expansion build in PvP, and one base vs. one base is just an awful matchup. Guess what, if he makes gates to attack, and I make gates to defend, nobody expands, and the matchup is just retarded.
The soonest I can scout after the first stalker pops in PvP is when either my msc flies over to his base (horrifically unsafe decision), my first sentry hits 100 energy for a hallucination (unsafe decision because you might just see an attack coming in time to not have force fields to defend it), or my observer/stargate unit gets over there. During the length of time it takes for one of these three things to happen, both players have committed to some kind of build choice blindly. You might as well play rock papers scissors. Being able to safely take a fast expand fixes that problem because it means that the blind tech choices don't kill you before you can respond, making the matchup actually playable.
And we do use chrono, it still isn't out in time. He's doing a 3 gate attack vs. my nexus: I need to hold my nexus. The three gate attack starts while my robo is building, I use photon overcharge to buy time, I chrono the immortal, it makes it out barely in time with my other units and I might hold if my micro is good from this point. If the overcharge ends sooner, he moves in and gets a good position or even force fields my ramp before the immortal can get there. This isn't the only situation, there are many.
PvP is a shit matchup, and the PO is the only thing keeping it from going back to WoL 1 base vs. 1 base every game.
It's so epic that you have to justify how PvP is affected when everyone seems to agree that the nerf should be vision & casting range instead of length in the first place.
On February 03 2014 07:10 Nebuchad wrote: It's so epic that you have to justify how PvP is affected when everyone seems to agree that the nerf should be vision & casting range instead of length in the first place.
I'm not even sure casting range is needed, but yes, I completely agree that vision range nerf is justified.
On February 03 2014 05:33 starslayer wrote: i still dont understand protoss saying that the photon overcharge nerf will fuck pvp up its 10s not that much at all if you lose because of that its not because of a 10s nerf its cause you did something wrong its 10s.
That's because you don't understand PvP. If my opponent is doing a 1 base all-in vs. my expand build, I need as much time as I can possibly get to get some essential tech out to defend. I will never have more units then they will, since I will not have the time to make workers to get a higher income, so I need to hold the nexus with fewer units. That means it basically has to be some form of tech unit, like an immortal. 10 seconds is a huge difference in whether I can get it out in time or not.
PvP very frequently is won or lost in less time than 10 seconds.
first maybe dont do 1 gate expo vs a one base all in you can scout what protoss is doing and you can make more gates rather then make a nexus lol also theres a thing called chrono that would get that immortal out in time
You literally can't scout in PvP during various timings, you have to commit to a build before you know what your opponent is doing. That's why it's a coin flip. There is literally no such thing as any safe form of expansion build in PvP, and one base vs. one base is just an awful matchup. Guess what, if he makes gates to attack, and I make gates to defend, nobody expands, and the matchup is just retarded.
And we do use chrono, it still isn't out in time. He's doing a 3 gate attack vs. my nexus: I need to hold my nexus. The three gate attack starts while my robo is building, I use photon overcharge to buy time, I chrono the immortal, it makes it out barely in time with my other units and I might hold if my micro is good from this point. If the overcharge ends sooner, he moves in and gets a good position or even force fields my ramp before the immortal can get there. This isn't the only situation, there are many.
PvP is a shit matchup, and the PO is the only thing keeping it from going back to WoL 1 base vs. 1 base every game.
This is also not true on most maps. You just have to be willing to stop being so greedy. I probe scout. I zealot scout. I probe scout again. Rarely do I get surprised, and I have time to adjust accordingly, unless it's a proxy 2 gate stalker that can be made anywhere. I must be magical, or I simply try to scout..
I can't disagree with fearing 1 base vs 1 base p vs p, again. It would be nice if the duration could remain the same in p vs p, while it could be tweaked if need be in other mu's.
The silly thing is that photon overcharge doesn't last 60 seconds, it lasts like 43 seconds in real-time, which already seems a lot less impressive.
Anyway, I think that when Blizzard patches the game they should strive to improve it, not to constantly finetune balance with overly targeted changes. But in hots they have really stopped caring and now they're addressing all balance issues by removing upgrades, adding specific damage bonuses and rules(hellbat), and increasing movement speeds of units. I hope that they'll at least fix all inconsistencies in lotv.
Good balance is important, of course, but can often be achieved with new maps or with changes that also improve the design. At least fixing the MsC vision and so on will make the unit feel more consistent in addition to being a balance change.
On February 03 2014 05:33 starslayer wrote: i still dont understand protoss saying that the photon overcharge nerf will fuck pvp up its 10s not that much at all if you lose because of that its not because of a 10s nerf its cause you did something wrong its 10s.
That's because you don't understand PvP. If my opponent is doing a 1 base all-in vs. my expand build, I need as much time as I can possibly get to get some essential tech out to defend. I will never have more units then they will, since I will not have the time to make workers to get a higher income, so I need to hold the nexus with fewer units. That means it basically has to be some form of tech unit, like an immortal. 10 seconds is a huge difference in whether I can get it out in time or not.
PvP very frequently is won or lost in less time than 10 seconds.
first maybe dont do 1 gate expo vs a one base all in you can scout what protoss is doing and you can make more gates rather then make a nexus lol also theres a thing called chrono that would get that immortal out in time
You literally can't scout in PvP during various timings, you have to commit to a build before you know what your opponent is doing. That's why it's a coin flip. There is literally no such thing as any safe form of expansion build in PvP, and one base vs. one base is just an awful matchup. Guess what, if he makes gates to attack, and I make gates to defend, nobody expands, and the matchup is just retarded.
And we do use chrono, it still isn't out in time. He's doing a 3 gate attack vs. my nexus: I need to hold my nexus. The three gate attack starts while my robo is building, I use photon overcharge to buy time, I chrono the immortal, it makes it out barely in time with my other units and I might hold if my micro is good from this point. If the overcharge ends sooner, he moves in and gets a good position or even force fields my ramp before the immortal can get there. This isn't the only situation, there are many.
PvP is a shit matchup, and the PO is the only thing keeping it from going back to WoL 1 base vs. 1 base every game.
This is also not true on most maps. You just have to be willing to stop being so greedy. I probe scout. I zealot scout. I probe scout again. Rarely do I get surprised, and I have time to adjust accordingly, unless it's a proxy 2 gate stalker that can be made anywhere. I must be magical, or I simply try to scout..
I can't disagree with fearing 1 base vs 1 base p vs p, again. It would be nice if the duration could remain the same in p vs p, while it could be tweaked if need be in other mu's.
I can't remember the last time I let my opponent into my base after I chased the first probe out to scout what I was doing, or the last time I got a unit into their base to scout before hallucination was ready. The stalker and MSC easily denies a follow up probe or zealot scout, and whenever I see a zealot scout, I usually cheer because it's a free zealot kill.
Has anyone actually tested any of these changes out? For example it seems like everyone is talking about the hydralisk buff in terms of theorycraft. I am questioning whether or not it has been tested by a couple of these pros that say that hydralisk and muta switches would be imbalanced. I am playing a little bit of a devils advocate but Hydraliks gas cost would be halfed, and then you could have twice as many hydralisk on the same amount of gas after then before, but you will still be limited on your minerals. I will ask, when ever you go for hydralisks, are you really floating that much minerals? If hydralisk gas cost was halfed, wouldn't your minerals still limit you, and the supply cost?
Then you want to talk about the muta switch and other strategy. There would be 3 scenarios: 1: The zerg player makes these cheaper hydras, and makes a lot extra. Compared to the current game, if you attempted a muta switch your mineral count would be lower by comparison, but you would have a bigger army of hydralisks. As devils advocate, I would ask, how could a protoss hold this, or better yet, if zerg were given more options (this being an option), how does such a boost to hydralisk allow zerg to counter protoss? There would be stronger hydralisk pushs against faster 3rds and vs stargate play. I would expect that protoss could hold hydralisks timings, but it would be much much harder to hold while opening stargate, but is this really a bad thing?
2: The zerg player makes the same amount of hydralisks he would have made pre buff off of the same amount of geysers, keeping an extra 25 gas, or an extra muta's worth of gas for ever 4 hydralisks made. I would assume a good protoss would be scouting with hallucinations and would be able to see a spire or a hydralisks den [ lol alterzim ]. A good protoss would be able to read into the amount of hydralisks being made and question where the gas is going.
3:The zerg player makes the same amount of hydralisks he would have made pre buff off of less geysers, having in total less gas income and more mineral income. I would imagine this sort of thing as a safer or a more greedier opening depending on when you get your gas, being that upgrades and lair tech might be slower, and later tech would be slower, infavor of more bases and more mineral income. [ could be wrong on this one ]
On February 03 2014 07:14 Grumbels wrote: Anyway, I think that when Blizzard patches the game they should strive to improve it, not to constantly finetune balance with overly targeted changes. But in hots they have really stopped caring and now they're addressing all balance issues by removing upgrades, adding specific damage bonuses and rules(hellbat), and increasing movement speeds of units. I hope that they'll at least fix all inconsistencies in lotv.
Good balance is important, of course, but can often be achieved with new maps or with changes that also improve the design. At least fixing the MsC vision and so on will make the unit feel more consistent in addition to being a balance change.
Pretty much. I just hope, "we" as a community don't get what we whine for.
Whatever goes through, I hope it opens and improves the game (for all races) rather than restrict it and make it ugly.
While they're at it why not just buff hydra cost all the way to 75/25, then buff supply to 1 and nerf damage to 10, then nerf roach cost to 100/50 and buff its HP/armor accordingly, then switch the roach and hydra tech buildings...
The ghost buff is going to be awesome for me, a high plat player, because I always forget to get the upgrade. Doubt it will affect pro-players very much though...
Instead of playing around with the energy cost of timewarp they should just remove it. It is far to similar to forcefields; just easier to use and to get. This spell is absolutely disgusting, especially in combination with blink all ins. I have no idea why toss even needs this stupid spell. Toss absolutely does not need EZmode forcefields.
He's an amateur compared to the other guys in the post, except for minigun.
Then you have to reconsider your definition of a pro, because he is a professional.
The other guys are out of a job if they don't win at the highest level. It's like comparing a top prospect in AA with an MLB pro. They both play baseball for a living but whose opinion do you care about more?
On February 03 2014 05:33 starslayer wrote: i still dont understand protoss saying that the photon overcharge nerf will fuck pvp up its 10s not that much at all if you lose because of that its not because of a 10s nerf its cause you did something wrong its 10s.
That's because you don't understand PvP. If my opponent is doing a 1 base all-in vs. my expand build, I need as much time as I can possibly get to get some essential tech out to defend. I will never have more units then they will, since I will not have the time to make workers to get a higher income, so I need to hold the nexus with fewer units. That means it basically has to be some form of tech unit, like an immortal. 10 seconds is a huge difference in whether I can get it out in time or not.
PvP very frequently is won or lost in less time than 10 seconds.
first maybe dont do 1 gate expo vs a one base all in you can scout what protoss is doing and you can make more gates rather then make a nexus lol also theres a thing called chrono that would get that immortal out in time
You literally can't scout in PvP during various timings, you have to commit to a build before you know what your opponent is doing. That's why it's a coin flip. There is literally no such thing as any safe form of expansion build in PvP, and one base vs. one base is just an awful matchup. Guess what, if he makes gates to attack, and I make gates to defend, nobody expands, and the matchup is just retarded.
And we do use chrono, it still isn't out in time. He's doing a 3 gate attack vs. my nexus: I need to hold my nexus. The three gate attack starts while my robo is building, I use photon overcharge to buy time, I chrono the immortal, it makes it out barely in time with my other units and I might hold if my micro is good from this point. If the overcharge ends sooner, he moves in and gets a good position or even force fields my ramp before the immortal can get there. This isn't the only situation, there are many.
PvP is a shit matchup, and the PO is the only thing keeping it from going back to WoL 1 base vs. 1 base every game.
This is also not true on most maps. You just have to be willing to stop being so greedy. I probe scout. I zealot scout. I probe scout again. Rarely do I get surprised, and I have time to adjust accordingly, unless it's a proxy 2 gate stalker that can be made anywhere. I must be magical, or I simply try to scout..
I can't disagree with fearing 1 base vs 1 base p vs p, again. It would be nice if the duration could remain the same in p vs p, while it could be tweaked if need be in other mu's.
I can't remember the last time I let my opponent into my base after I chased the first probe out to scout what I was doing, or the last time I got a unit into their base to scout before hallucination was ready. The stalker and MSC easily denies a follow up probe or zealot scout, and whenever I see a zealot scout, I usually cheer because it's a free zealot kill.
Well, I can remember the last time I couldn't get my zealot into one's base, against elfi, because it was such an oddity. A while ago... Not only do I get a scout of what they're doing, I often times kill 1-2 probes.
I couldn't care less about losing a zealot, if I get the scouting advantage or simply know what they're doing. When I get a faster nexus than you or realize how to abuse what you're doing, you might not be so cheerful about a meaningless zealot kill.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
pretty much everyone is saying msc needs a vision nerf. The only reason it has 14 vision in the first place is from beta when the msc was attatched to the nexus and it needed 14 vision to have 14 po. In summary, blizzard is being lazy.
so please, for the love of god blizzard, for once listen to the community and the pros. This is what you need to do:
TvP: Nerf the msc vision to 11 like every other air unit in the game. Nerf the PO range slightly and/or increase the energy cost and/or reduce casting range as per miniguns suggestion, but keep its 60sec duration as that only truly affects pvp. Increase timewarp cost Instead of removing yet another upgrade (ghost), reduce the cost of the armory. Its virtually the same cost-reduction for terran regardless, but one actually helps mech. Please dont pretend to buff mech by buffing bio. You have no credibility in that department anymore, not after years and years of promising to make mech viable. Remove the biotag from the hellbat. It makes zero sense to have a mechanical unit become a biounit just because it transforms. The ability of being healed is part of what made hellbat op in drops in the first place and at the same time makes them shit against archons. Merge transformation servos and blueflame into one upgrade. Possibly with a longer upgradetime.
Things worth to consider but not to be done right now: give tanks an upgrade that lets them attack shield more effectively. Basically "EMP Shells".
PvZ: The problem isnt lategame tempests, the problem is the swarmhost! Some pros have suggested removing the enduring locust upgrade and instead let the swarmhost be faster both with burrowing/unborrowing and when moving around on the map. This could be either as an upgrade or as a fundamental change to the unit. Basically reward multitasking with swarmhosts instead of the boring, long, drawn out static play we're seeing. Others have more very good suggestions on how to improve the swarmhost and there are many possible ways to do so; please consider looking at the swarmhost instead of yet another bandaid with tempest.
Consider removing the tempest entirely and make the carrier into more of a bw-carrier where micro is possible. The tempest is a truly wonky unit that makes very little sense intuitively with its minimal damage to everything but massive, and having air units with such range is terrible design as air units dont really interact with the map in the first place (they only do so transitively by interacting with counters on the ground) and long range reduces that even further. This is wishful thinking on my part as I know youre never going to do this and most likely dont even care what anyone posts here but hey, doesnt hurt to try I guess...
TvZ:
Buff the radius of vipers blinding cloud but instead of nullifying range under it let it reduce range by a set number (as in reduce every units range by x, not reduce every units range to x). That way blinding cloud is less of a hard counter to mech and becomes more viable vs bio. Consider nerfing ravens slightly in conjunction with proposed swarmhost changes. That in conjunction with changes to viper will result in less risk of turtle-terrans.
On February 03 2014 06:42 Faust852 wrote: I got a warning for saying Desrow is at best as valuable as Avilo, but Desrow saying Avilo is trash is totally ok...
That's because what you said was stupid. You said that Desrow is the same as Avilo and that is wrong. Is avilo in premier league? No didn't think so. Desrow streams a lot, but he was also able to make it to premier league where as Avilo is in the same spot as before (no results, just streams a lot), QQ'ing like non other and raging about balance because he can't turtle for 1 hour and then win.
He just got his lucky time, helped by a metagame that might have help him a shit ton. Blink allin good strat yo. I'm not saying Avilo is good or desrow is bad. They had the same level few weeks ago, and I still think they have a similar level. Just look at the ladder and see how close they are to each other. Plus i'm not the one who discredited Avilo saying "he should shut up and play", it's desrow's saying.
I've never lost to avilo in tournaments and I think I dropped a game or 2 out of 10+ on ladder in the past 6 months.
So they asked 4 Protoss, 4 Terrans, and 1 Zerg about the patch?... Uhhh you don't think that maybe the answers will be a little bit biased towards Protoss and Terran with those numbers? Either way, I like most of the changes except for the Hydra and Tempest buff. I think they need to change something else for Z and P besides those things.
On February 03 2014 09:23 Penguinator wrote: So they asked 4 Protoss, 4 Terrans, and 1 Zerg about the patch?... Uhhh you don't think that maybe the answers will be a little bit biased towards Protoss and Terran with those numbers? Either way, I like most of the changes except for the Hydra and Tempest buff. I think they need to change something else for Z and P besides those things.
They probably asked more people but these are the ones who chose to respond. Just my guess.
On February 03 2014 09:23 Penguinator wrote: So they asked 4 Protoss, 4 Terrans, and 1 Zerg about the patch?... Uhhh you don't think that maybe the answers will be a little bit biased towards Protoss and Terran with those numbers? Either way, I like most of the changes except for the Hydra and Tempest buff. I think they need to change something else for Z and P besides those things.
We asked way more people. These are just the ones that were willing to put their opinion out for the community, which, as shown by this thread, isn't immediate and easy.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them), just like medivacs are for bio, mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
I find a little bit sad from Blizzard to even think that Hydra at 25 gaz could be okay, they are literally saying that they don't understand their own game.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
Who's whining, I was giving my take on why units like oracles will never accomplish what they were intended for. I've long since given up on having real changes to this game.
Why do people in this thread think that brood war was balanced?
There are definitely a few things that are out of whack in the current game and some of the patch changes are weird. I wouldn't think any pro would think the hydra change is realistic. I still don't like the ghost cost change either.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
The design whine will stop as soon as LotV comes out. Either they will fix the issues (really though, don't you people at least see that FF limit the map design, if nothing else?) or they won't and in that case all hope for those people will be lost and they will either come to a peace with the game or quit it. (What I would like to add is, even community figures are not really satisfied with some design issues - for example TB, Destiny, Kennigit and others blatantly spoke about it on talk shows in the past weeks, while ex-BW pros like Idra, Nony, TT1, Lalush etc were pointing towards them from day1).
On February 03 2014 08:35 Snusmumriken wrote: pretty much everyone is saying msc needs a vision nerf. The only reason it has 14 vision in the first place is from beta when the msc was attatched to the nexus and it needed 14 vision to have 14 po. In summary, blizzard is being lazy.
so please, for the love of god blizzard, for once listen to the community and the pros. This is what you need to do:
TvP: Nerf the msc vision to 11 like every other air unit in the game. Nerf the PO range slightly and/or increase the energy cost and/or reduce casting range as per miniguns suggestion, but keep its 60sec duration as that only truly affects pvp. Increase timewarp cost Instead of removing yet another upgrade (ghost), reduce the cost of the armory. Its virtually the same cost-reduction for terran regardless, but one actually helps mech. Please dont pretend to buff mech by buffing bio. You have no credibility in that department anymore, not after years and years of promising to make mech viable. Remove the biotag from the hellbat. It makes zero sense to have a mechanical unit become a biounit just because it transforms. The ability of being healed is part of what made hellbat op in drops in the first place and at the same time makes them shit against archons. Merge transformation servos and blueflame into one upgrade. Possibly with a longer upgradetime.
Things worth to consider but not to be done right now: give tanks an upgrade that lets them attack shield more effectively. Basically "EMP Shells".
PvZ: The problem isnt lategame tempests, the problem is the swarmhost! Some pros have suggested removing the enduring locust upgrade and instead let the swarmhost be faster both with burrowing/unborrowing and when moving around on the map. This could be either as an upgrade or as a fundamental change to the unit. Basically reward multitasking with swarmhosts instead of the boring, long, drawn out static play we're seeing. Others have more very good suggestions on how to improve the swarmhost and there are many possible ways to do so; please consider looking at the swarmhost instead of yet another bandaid with tempest.
Consider removing the tempest entirely and make the carrier into more of a bw-carrier where micro is possible. The tempest is a truly wonky unit that makes very little sense intuitively with its minimal damage to everything but massive, and having air units with such range is terrible design as air units dont really interact with the map in the first place (they only do so transitively by interacting with counters on the ground) and long range reduces that even further. This is wishful thinking on my part as I know youre never going to do this and most likely dont even care what anyone posts here but hey, doesnt hurt to try I guess...
TvZ:
Buff the radius of vipers blinding cloud but instead of nullifying range under it let it reduce range by a set number (as in reduce every units range by x, not reduce every units range to x). That way blinding cloud is less of a hard counter to mech and becomes more viable vs bio. Consider nerfing ravens slightly in conjunction with proposed swarmhost changes. That in conjunction with changes to viper will result in less risk of turtle-terrans.
This is right on considering what is actually feasible in a patch without LotV
On February 03 2014 09:39 Vanadiel wrote: I find a little bit sad from Blizzard to even think that Hydra at 25 gaz could be okay, they are literally saying that they don't understand their own game.
Pretty much, it baffles me that their 'balance' team sat down and thought cheaper hydras was the change most worth testing on zerg.
Yeah, Hydra buff wont go through. Just like Queen range or Oracle speed..... I hope the patch becomes live soon, I want to see both code S semifinals be ZvZ. Just mass Hydras being made and a clicked all over the place. This kills the Protoss whining to. No one ever complains about Zerg.
On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote: All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
Look like bandaids?
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
On topic, I do find it funny that basically all of the pro opinions match what the community has said (outside of the vocal outliers who just want to be contrarian). People always say that the community has no idea what it is talking about, but it seems pretty clear that we aren't that far off when it comes to some of this stuff.
Everyone was saying ling/hydra into muta would become an issue with this patch, and now we have pros even saying as much.
If Blizzard ignores this, then I don't even know what to say. I can see why they would ignore the community at times, but if pros of all 3 races are all saying the same thing, then it is pretty clear what the consensus is.
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto.
On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote: thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it.
e:
On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:
On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto.
There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years'
Some design whine is unwarranted sure, but some is, and we just wants whats best for the game. Staying quiet doesn't work, and Blizzard obviously can't figure it out on their own anymore.
Assuming the Ghost Buff goes through I'd be curious to see if Ghost rushes become a thing. Given that Ghosts do 20 dmg vs light without upgrades + 3 snipes the second they spawn that's a lot of potential damage.
On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote: thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it.
e:
On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:
On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto.
There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years'
If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it.
Probably a bit late to the party with this post but whatever. Hydralisks will have 4:1 mineral to gas ratio up from 2:1 ratio if this change goes through. It will be the only Zerg technology unit to be this mineral heavy.
It seems like the designers are trying to increase the amount of tech units in the earlier parts of the mid-game, AND wanting to increase zerg's abililty to break 3rd bases early on, especially vs. Stargate play. The overall DPS and army HP increase can turn out to be too much. However, while Hydralisks are cheaper now, they still cost minerals and you can only mine so much before having to commit to a timing. It would be helpful for this thread if anyone did a calculation or practical comparison to check how many more minerals and hydras the gas reduction actually gives you as a result of the change.
Practical concerns: - The first hydra wave, earlier forcefield/overcharge trigger, easier hydra reinforcement - The transition into muta with extra free mutas - The increased amount of hydras for 3rd breaker strategies before vipers in general (byebye voidray chargelot archon or even pre-lance colossi? o.o) - Roach Hydra Viper early mid-game timings with too many hydralisks, vipers or even infestors in the mix - Zergs taking faster 4th vs Phoenix into colossus openings, easier access to Hydralisk defending drones followed up with stronger defenses vs. 2 1/2-base and 3-base timings? - Too easy to defend sentry-zealot-msc pressure into immortal all-ins?
Hydralisk pressure into multi-expand Spire play might become super overpowered and is probably the biggest possible concern about this patch.
The Hydra change would be a massive early timing attack buff and early mid-game army value buff, but I would like to see the added mineral effect in action, especially applied to the 6gas mutaswitch into 8/10gas muta reinforcement as well as the offensive early hydra rush.
On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote: thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it.
e:
On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:
On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto.
There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years'
If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it.
Blizzard takes these middle of the road options that don't lead anywhere.
They directly take the brood war design and match it with modern rts controls so that the game is considered both too easy and too punishing so that nobody is happy.
Then they commit to four years of constant support and patching, never leaving the game alone to develop on its own, while never actually going through with redesigns of problem aspects of the game.
Wcs is rife with bad motr decisions, then they try to fix it but they leave so many koreans grandfathered in na/eu, making the new model slightly pointless.
The biggest solution would be Blizzard holding a conference for all the PROS and let all the sentiments of three races be discussed.Where all present are the PROS, the game design team and the Blizzard titans.Is it that hard for Blizzard to hold an event like this? This will be tournament of reasoning and wits.
On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote: thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it.
e:
On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:
On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto.
There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years'
If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it.
Or they might be dead wrong but be unable or unwilling to realise it or accept it.
On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote: thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it.
e:
On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:
On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto.
There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years'
If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it.
Blizzard takes these middle of the road options that don't lead anywhere.
They directly take the brood war design and match it with modern rts controls so that the game is considered both too easy and too punishing so that nobody is happy.
Then they commit to four years of constant support and patching, never leaving the game alone to develop on its own, while never actually going through with redesigns of problem aspects of the game.
Wcs is rife with bad motr decisions, then they try to fix it but they leave so many koreans grandfathered in na/eu, making the new model slightly pointless.
What is motr? I think I get the Korean grandfathering reference.
On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote: thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it.
e:
On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:
On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto.
There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years'
If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it.
Or they might be dead wrong but be unable or unwilling to realise it or accept it.
A lot of the negativity was allowed because people thought it would pressure blizzard into fixing their pet concerns. I think if blizzard had abandoned starcraft from day 1 that the community would be a lot happier because only those that liked the game would have stayed around, maybe.
edit: motr = middle of the road, writing on mobile so being concise.
Well, it's almost impossible to get balance right. And if Blizzard don't patch things, they even get more complaint + they have to do something with their job. Even Starbow can't get the balance right, and it's the community's mod. If BW was popular now, we'll still be whining about balance.
I just think RTS popularity time is over. The new era likes LoL, Dota style more. The latest sc2 tournament have less viewers than 1 pro LoL gamer stream. That's saying a lot.
On February 03 2014 11:43 elmerpogs wrote: The biggest solution would be Blizzard holding a conference for all the PROS and let all the sentiments of three races be discussed.Where all present are the PROS, the game design team and the Blizzard titans.Is it that hard for Blizzard to hold an event like this? This will be tournament of reasoning and wits.
Stream it too.
As matter of fact, get the Koreans on the panel too.
Get the ProLeague guys w/ translators.
This conference can last for 3 days for 10 hrs/day.
This WILL generate more viewers than the higher recorded SC2 event.
On February 03 2014 08:35 Snusmumriken wrote: pretty much everyone is saying msc needs a vision nerf. The only reason it has 14 vision in the first place is from beta when the msc was attatched to the nexus and it needed 14 vision to have 14 po. In summary, blizzard is being lazy.
so please, for the love of god blizzard, for once listen to the community and the pros. This is what you need to do:
TvP: Nerf the msc vision to 11 like every other air unit in the game. Nerf the PO range slightly and/or increase the energy cost and/or reduce casting range as per miniguns suggestion, but keep its 60sec duration as that only truly affects pvp. Increase timewarp cost Instead of removing yet another upgrade (ghost), reduce the cost of the armory. Its virtually the same cost-reduction for terran regardless, but one actually helps mech. Please dont pretend to buff mech by buffing bio. You have no credibility in that department anymore, not after years and years of promising to make mech viable. Remove the biotag from the hellbat. It makes zero sense to have a mechanical unit become a biounit just because it transforms. The ability of being healed is part of what made hellbat op in drops in the first place and at the same time makes them shit against archons. Merge transformation servos and blueflame into one upgrade. Possibly with a longer upgradetime.
Things worth to consider but not to be done right now: give tanks an upgrade that lets them attack shield more effectively. Basically "EMP Shells".
PvZ: The problem isnt lategame tempests, the problem is the swarmhost! Some pros have suggested removing the enduring locust upgrade and instead let the swarmhost be faster both with burrowing/unborrowing and when moving around on the map. This could be either as an upgrade or as a fundamental change to the unit. Basically reward multitasking with swarmhosts instead of the boring, long, drawn out static play we're seeing. Others have more very good suggestions on how to improve the swarmhost and there are many possible ways to do so; please consider looking at the swarmhost instead of yet another bandaid with tempest.
Consider removing the tempest entirely and make the carrier into more of a bw-carrier where micro is possible. The tempest is a truly wonky unit that makes very little sense intuitively with its minimal damage to everything but massive, and having air units with such range is terrible design as air units dont really interact with the map in the first place (they only do so transitively by interacting with counters on the ground) and long range reduces that even further. This is wishful thinking on my part as I know youre never going to do this and most likely dont even care what anyone posts here but hey, doesnt hurt to try I guess...
TvZ:
Buff the radius of vipers blinding cloud but instead of nullifying range under it let it reduce range by a set number (as in reduce every units range by x, not reduce every units range to x). That way blinding cloud is less of a hard counter to mech and becomes more viable vs bio. Consider nerfing ravens slightly in conjunction with proposed swarmhost changes. That in conjunction with changes to viper will result in less risk of turtle-terrans.
Why aren't you the lead balance person on Blizzard?! Can someone make a test map with these kinds of changes? I'm going to get this out on Reddit too if you don't mind.
MMA hit it on the head screw all the other things the one focus should be REDUCE MC VISION RANGE!!!!! Im Zerg but Jesus TvP is stupid cause that nonsense
Why not just a buff to hydralisk upgrades? Make them both into one? Blizzard have a habit of splitting zergs upgrades into 2 paths(ground upgrades, overlord upgrades, roaches upgrades,air upgrades,even the fucking banelings need two upgrades for efficient usage,burrow plus speed bane- all this shit has to be upgraded twice) which is kinda stupid imo since hydras has such a tiny window. Either that or TLO's recommendation of buffing the beefiness(?) of the hydras.
25 gas is just stupid.
EDIT: Do the balance team actually play sc2?? Sometimes when I look at the patches I get a headache.
One thing I do not get is why the community doesn't come out with a counter test map every time we get one of these poorly put together patches. Some of these changes are so damn obvious. It would be nice to see two high level players take on the map so we can see a more community reflected approach to the game and see how it pans out. First map should be TvP with MSC vision down to 11. One change per update, fixing one detail at a time.
On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote: thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it.
e:
On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:
On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote: [quote]
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto.
There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years'
If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it.
Or they might be dead wrong but be unable or unwilling to realise it or accept it.
A lot of the negativity was allowed because people thought it would pressure blizzard into fixing their pet concerns. I think if blizzard had abandoned starcraft from day 1 that the community would be a lot happier because only those that liked the game would have stayed around, maybe.
edit: motr = middle of the road, writing on mobile so being concise.
That or only masochists.
So, that's what motr means. Thanks, learned something new.
And yeah, also meant to say that some of the whine/complaints might be right. Such as the economy in SC2 (even if it is not, IMO, fundamentally flawed) but Blizzard are not going to change it (this from an AMA pre-HOTS).
Anyway, I can see their intentions with this patch. Tune down Protoss early game defense, strengthen Zerg mid game, strengthen Terran mid game/open up a timing, strengthen Protoss late game in turtle situations. Hopefully, they find better ways of implementing these. But, like I said in the Test map thread, I like the Tempest change (even if it needs some work).
And I think Minigun is really on point about nerfing the MSC. If you dropped the cast range of Photon Overcharge to nearly melee, you can't just position your MSC to perfectly defend all 3 bases instantly. You'd actually have to anticipate the attacks and if you're not sure, you take the hit of a slower reaction, which is how the game should actually work. Can Siege Tanks instantly be in perfect position for defending 3 bases at the drop of a hat? No. And the vision change has been suggested so many times and is a better fix than anything else suggested (though I'd like to see Photon Overcharge nerfed too). I mean, if you nerf the cast range on Photon Overcharge, then if you force a Photon Overcharge at the front, they'll take time to use on in the main, so you can actually drop and outmaneuver the Protoss. They'd have to leave a few units at the front (like 3 or 4 Zealots), and will preemptively pull the rest of their units into the main. The MSC could also use a small speed nerf, though that may be a bit extreme.
Sadly, you can probably expect the Hydra buff to go through. Blizzard occasionally does REALLY stupid changes (remember the Queen buff that destroyed TvZ), and some of the more recent patches they'll let through some REALLY dumb changes (Oracle buff anyone). At this point, it's like Blizzard is just trying to fuck with us.
Things that need attention: MSC in PvT Oracles in PvT Swarm Hosts in ZvP Sky Terran in ZvT (too strong if played right, though given the fact that it's the highest investment unit comp, that might be appropriate) Mech in TvP (yeah, HTOmario and Avilo may claim it to be viable, but holy hell is it hard) Terran lategame transitions in TvP (can be tied in with mech, but lategame TvP CAN'T be just bio simply because bio is the only option for anything Protoss has) Tanks at the very least need to be changed to 2 supply Maybe give EMP to Raven (I'd much rather have EMP on Ravens, and it would give Terran legitimate late game transitions in TvP and make the matchup far more interesting)
On February 03 2014 13:17 XXXSmOke wrote: One thing I do not get is why the community doesn't come out with a counter test map every time we get one of these poorly put together patches. Some of these changes are so damn obvious. It would be nice to see two high level players take on the map so we can see a more community reflected approach to the game and see how it pans out. First map should be TvP with MSC vision down to 11. One change per update, fixing one detail at a time.
I agree with this. Although, with the time it takes Blizzard to finally release the maps for testing, maybe it's something to be left to paid professionals? It might not be rocket science, but it has to be pretty close to it.
instead of dt rush you'll have a ghost rush.. and there will be timing for marine ghost early game... hydras early game vs toss will be a easy win for zerg 9\10 times need to rush out those aoe units to deal with it. msc i like the duration, but not the mana cost increase. GG
When I see these balance updates, I see a lot of middle of the road bullshit that theoretically are aimed at changing winrates and not optimized game design. Blizzard is all about band-aid fixes and that's how we have reached the state of the game as it is today.
1) mothershipcore nerf - sure it's a nerf! Logic dictates that a nerf will lower protoss winrates. That's basically what blizzards rationale here is. If there was any thought given to what specific problems there were in the first place, there is no evidence of this due to the middle of the road approach where blizzard is too afraid to change anything directly.
2) tempest buff - sure it's a buff! Logic dictates it will help lategame pvz swarmhost spore crawler viper turtling. Zero talk of how fundamentally retarded this matchup becomes during this stage of the game.
3) ghost buff - wow terran winrates low? Lets buff ghost. Now they have higher winrates and we'll also try to pass it off as making mech viable so we get more support.
Blizzard should have this BIG Starcraft 2 Conference where the KOREANS, the foreign PROS and COMMUNITY will be at the panel.Blizzard have their own thoughts of balance while the community, the players all have the same clamour for change.If they could meet at the conference, a lot of things could be discussed and if the community and Blizzard agrees, this could lead to a good patch. =)
On February 03 2014 13:51 elmerpogs wrote: Blizzard should have this BIG Starcraft 2 Conference where the KOREANS, the foreign PROS and COMMUNITY will be at the panel.Blizzard have their own thoughts of balance while the community, the players all have the same clamour for change.If they could meet at the conference, a lot of things could be discussed and if the community and Blizzard agrees, this could lead to a good patch. =)
They do talk to pro players that provide good feed back. They created special forums for pros as well. The problem is that a lot of pros provide very bias feedback based on their race and play style. Blizzard has said over and over that they talk to pro players who provide good, balanced feed back and other community members.
I think it would be foolish to completely scrap the hydralisk change on the basis that timings might be strong, for me the hydra change has a chance to make ZvT more interesting, will definitely make for a lot more interesting ZvZ and mobile ground to air in late-game ZvP is desperately needed.
They have tools to weaken the timings if they're too strong and I wish it was where more people were focusing their efforts, but imo the drastic change is necessary to make the hydralisk more cost effective and worth trading instead of just stronger in an end-game army.
Hopefully they don't throw the baby out with the bathwater here, as I think it's an important step, though it might mean some short term pain. The big question should be: Is this worth balancing around? I think it is.
On February 03 2014 08:35 Snusmumriken wrote: pretty much everyone is saying msc needs a vision nerf. The only reason it has 14 vision in the first place is from beta when the msc was attatched to the nexus and it needed 14 vision to have 14 po. In summary, blizzard is being lazy.
so please, for the love of god blizzard, for once listen to the community and the pros. This is what you need to do:
TvP: Nerf the msc vision to 11 like every other air unit in the game. Nerf the PO range slightly and/or increase the energy cost and/or reduce casting range as per miniguns suggestion, but keep its 60sec duration as that only truly affects pvp. Increase timewarp cost Instead of removing yet another upgrade (ghost), reduce the cost of the armory. Its virtually the same cost-reduction for terran regardless, but one actually helps mech. Please dont pretend to buff mech by buffing bio. You have no credibility in that department anymore, not after years and years of promising to make mech viable. Remove the biotag from the hellbat. It makes zero sense to have a mechanical unit become a biounit just because it transforms. The ability of being healed is part of what made hellbat op in drops in the first place and at the same time makes them shit against archons. Merge transformation servos and blueflame into one upgrade. Possibly with a longer upgradetime.
Things worth to consider but not to be done right now: give tanks an upgrade that lets them attack shield more effectively. Basically "EMP Shells".
PvZ: The problem isnt lategame tempests, the problem is the swarmhost! Some pros have suggested removing the enduring locust upgrade and instead let the swarmhost be faster both with burrowing/unborrowing and when moving around on the map. This could be either as an upgrade or as a fundamental change to the unit. Basically reward multitasking with swarmhosts instead of the boring, long, drawn out static play we're seeing. Others have more very good suggestions on how to improve the swarmhost and there are many possible ways to do so; please consider looking at the swarmhost instead of yet another bandaid with tempest.
Consider removing the tempest entirely and make the carrier into more of a bw-carrier where micro is possible. The tempest is a truly wonky unit that makes very little sense intuitively with its minimal damage to everything but massive, and having air units with such range is terrible design as air units dont really interact with the map in the first place (they only do so transitively by interacting with counters on the ground) and long range reduces that even further. This is wishful thinking on my part as I know youre never going to do this and most likely dont even care what anyone posts here but hey, doesnt hurt to try I guess...
TvZ:
Buff the radius of vipers blinding cloud but instead of nullifying range under it let it reduce range by a set number (as in reduce every units range by x, not reduce every units range to x). That way blinding cloud is less of a hard counter to mech and becomes more viable vs bio. Consider nerfing ravens slightly in conjunction with proposed swarmhost changes. That in conjunction with changes to viper will result in less risk of turtle-terrans.
On February 03 2014 13:51 elmerpogs wrote: Blizzard should have this BIG Starcraft 2 Conference where the KOREANS, the foreign PROS and COMMUNITY will be at the panel.Blizzard have their own thoughts of balance while the community, the players all have the same clamour for change.If they could meet at the conference, a lot of things could be discussed and if the community and Blizzard agrees, this could lead to a good patch. =)
They do talk to pro players that provide good feed back. They created special forums for pros as well. The problem is that a lot of pros provide very bias feedback based on their race and play style. Blizzard has said over and over that they talk to pro players who provide good, balanced feed back and other community members.
The problem is that with changes like the ones suggested, nobody knows who they are listening to. It's certainly not the pros.
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
I just insta /block every terran i meet nowadays. Problem solved.
On February 03 2014 14:56 XiaoJoyce- wrote: The progamer said, 10 hp or +1 armor to hydralisk is small buff, compared to the gas.
I thought 10hp and +1 armor is a huge buff too . . .
Not really when you compare that 1 hydralisk is basically the same thing as 2 marines. DPS = same, hp =same, biological and light +2 supply. I would actually like to see a +1 armor upgrade to make them better vs marines, zealots, and zerglings would be interesting to see. But even as it stands I dont think the 100/25 would open anything up in ZvT as hydras are a poor unit to build vs any basic terran comp (mech/mmm). ZvP would have some protoss be in trouble. They would need to go templar every game I feel becasue then when the tech switch to muta comes they need to morph to archon to deal and I dont know that protoss will be able to gass up enough which makes a war of attrition that Z will eventually win. Either way as it stands 100/50 hydras need something big. .
zerg can't compete with lategame protoss without a stupid unit, this is what needs changing, all they did in hots is replace brood lord infestor with swarm host viper.
On February 03 2014 11:39 Liquid`Snute wrote: Probably a bit late to the party with this post but whatever. Hydralisks will have 4:1 mineral to gas ratio up from 2:1 ratio if this change goes through. It will be the only Zerg technology unit to be this mineral heavy.
It seems like the designers are trying to increase the amount of tech units in the earlier parts of the mid-game, AND wanting to increase zerg's abililty to break 3rd bases early on, especially vs. Stargate play. The overall DPS and army HP increase can turn out to be too much. However, while Hydralisks are cheaper now, they still cost minerals and you can only mine so much before having to commit to a timing. It would be helpful for this thread if anyone did a calculation or practical comparison to check how many more minerals and hydras the gas reduction actually gives you as a result of the change.
Practical concerns: - The first hydra wave, earlier forcefield/overcharge trigger, easier hydra reinforcement - The transition into muta with extra free mutas - The increased amount of hydras for 3rd breaker strategies before vipers in general (byebye voidray chargelot archon or even pre-lance colossi? o.o) - Roach Hydra Viper early mid-game timings with too many hydralisks, vipers or even infestors in the mix - Zergs taking faster 4th vs Phoenix into colossus openings, easier access to Hydralisk defending drones followed up with stronger defenses vs. 2 1/2-base and 3-base timings? - Too easy to defend sentry-zealot-msc pressure into immortal all-ins?
Hydralisk pressure into multi-expand Spire play might become super overpowered and is probably the biggest possible concern about this patch.
The Hydra change would be a massive early timing attack buff and early mid-game army value buff, but I would like to see the added mineral effect in action, especially applied to the 6gas mutaswitch into 8/10gas muta reinforcement as well as the offensive early hydra rush.
I really like this post. I said in an earlier post that if this patch were to go through, if you go on the same amount of geysers, you will have more hydralisks, but if you go for a muta switch you will be more limited by your minerals than your gas. I think you could agree that stargate openers are one of the most popular from protoss today, and then the meta would shift away from this to be able to defend hydra pushes, which I dont know is a bad thing. Protoss can already semi easily scout with halucinations and mothership core poking, ( havent seen mothership core flying in to timewarp a mineral field in a long time).
On February 03 2014 14:56 XiaoJoyce- wrote: The progamer said, 10 hp or +1 armor to hydralisk is small buff, compared to the gas.
I thought 10hp and +1 armor is a huge buff too . . .
Well most of us can agree 25 gas is just plain stupid unless there is other adjustments, there are also many who agree hydras NEEDS a buff. Either hydras or zergs anti-air, which I assume is what blizz is trying to fix since the only time zergs use hydras is to fuck with stargate or go for a hydra/ling bust. Rarely roach/hydra against terran
On February 03 2014 11:39 Liquid`Snute wrote: Probably a bit late to the party with this post but whatever. Hydralisks will have 4:1 mineral to gas ratio up from 2:1 ratio if this change goes through. It will be the only Zerg technology unit to be this mineral heavy.
It seems like the designers are trying to increase the amount of tech units in the earlier parts of the mid-game, AND wanting to increase zerg's abililty to break 3rd bases early on, especially vs. Stargate play. The overall DPS and army HP increase can turn out to be too much. However, while Hydralisks are cheaper now, they still cost minerals and you can only mine so much before having to commit to a timing. It would be helpful for this thread if anyone did a calculation or practical comparison to check how many more minerals and hydras the gas reduction actually gives you as a result of the change.
Practical concerns: - The first hydra wave, earlier forcefield/overcharge trigger, easier hydra reinforcement - The transition into muta with extra free mutas - The increased amount of hydras for 3rd breaker strategies before vipers in general (byebye voidray chargelot archon or even pre-lance colossi? o.o) - Roach Hydra Viper early mid-game timings with too many hydralisks, vipers or even infestors in the mix - Zergs taking faster 4th vs Phoenix into colossus openings, easier access to Hydralisk defending drones followed up with stronger defenses vs. 2 1/2-base and 3-base timings? - Too easy to defend sentry-zealot-msc pressure into immortal all-ins?
Hydralisk pressure into multi-expand Spire play might become super overpowered and is probably the biggest possible concern about this patch.
The Hydra change would be a massive early timing attack buff and early mid-game army value buff, but I would like to see the added mineral effect in action, especially applied to the 6gas mutaswitch into 8/10gas muta reinforcement as well as the offensive early hydra rush.
I really like this post. I said in an earlier post that if this patch were to go through, if you go on the same amount of geysers, you will have more hydralisks, but if you go for a muta switch you will be more limited by your minerals than your gas. I think you could agree that stargate openers are one of the most popular from protoss today, and then the meta would shift away from this to be able to defend hydra pushes, which I dont know is a bad thing. Protoss can already semi easily scout with halucinations and mothership core poking, ( havent seen mothership core flying in to timewarp a mineral field in a long time).
The difficulty is that if you're committing heavily to robo units to defend hydralisks, and take a later third because you need to hold hydra timings (and you need more tech for that), then you probably won't have any pheonix out when the muta switch starts. Even if you scout the spire, you won't have much time to get out your stargates and get phoenix out before you're hit with the mutalisks, and you probably won't have many stalkers because you needed robo units + sentries + stargates etc., and that's quite gas heavy overall.
Stargate openers are popular because they put on some harass and pressure, they allow you to take a third, and they also set you up to defend a muta switch later. If hydras are much cheaper on gas, it's likely stargate openers will disappear due to having to commit to robo earlier to hold, meaning muta switches will be nastier even without the extra gas available for more.
It just seems like a clusterfuck, when it's already fairly difficult to defend muta switches.
On February 03 2014 14:56 XiaoJoyce- wrote: The progamer said, 10 hp or +1 armor to hydralisk is small buff, compared to the gas.
I thought 10hp and +1 armor is a huge buff too . . .
Well most of us can agree 25 gas is just plain stupid unless there is other adjustments, there are also many who agree hydras NEEDS a buff. Either hydras or zergs anti-air, which I assume is what blizz is trying to fix since the only time zergs use hydras is to fuck with stargate or go for a hydra/ling bust. Rarely roach/hydra against terran
I am one of those "plain stupid people". Like, I don't think any of you have played the balance map at all or more than once or twice. I say this in the way that we are all just theory crafting and that we don't actually 100% know how it would work out, that is why blizzard is at least discussing it. You may disagree and say that the saving of gas for tech switching like mutalisks is way to powerful and that you will have faster more danger hydralisk pushes. I believe that you have the potential to have more mutalisks with a tech switch due to the saving of gas. I believe that you will be more limited by the minerals than the gas at this point. I am just theory crafting but I think when you go to make a muta transition and you spend all you can to make mutas, you will be floating some gas, and not really get that many extra mutalisks. You might say that it is a 50% reduction, but I say that is only 25 gas. Every 4 hydralisks you will save 1 mutalisk worth of gas. If you make 20 hydras your only going to save 5 mutalisks worth of gas. Like I guarantee you will float gas, but I don't think you will have enough minerals to support this "bigger" of a switch.
Honestly, Zerg has 0 early aggression options against protoss (barring any hard counters such as 6 pool vs. nexus first). Nexus cannon, mothership core have completely nullified any all-ins. Blizz needs to give them some early aggression options. Diversity of strategies makes the game better. Not sure if hydra cost buff is the way to go, but atleast its something.
While this may not be the correct solution, Zerg does need some form off anti-air buff. As it stands, the only way to deal with mid-lategame mech or mid-lategame skytoss is with mass spores (&viper/swarmhost) causing the turtle games everyone hates to watch. Instead, a smaller hydra buff in addition to a corruptor buff could be feasible (corruptors really are trash units 90% of the time), or reverting one of the two HotS void ray buffs
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
I just insta /block every terran i meet nowadays. Problem solved.
Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
On February 03 2014 14:56 XiaoJoyce- wrote: The progamer said, 10 hp or +1 armor to hydralisk is small buff, compared to the gas.
I thought 10hp and +1 armor is a huge buff too . . .
+1 armor is an insanely high survivability buff.
With 80 hp it takes a marine 14 shots to kill a hydralisk, with +1 armor it now takes 16 which is a 13% increase in survivability for that unit and a 17% reduction in damage from the marine. It doesn't seem like much but now over the course of like say 20 hydras @ 80 hp each that's an increase of 208 effective HP in that army. It's a pretty significant buff even though it seems so small.
On February 03 2014 14:56 XiaoJoyce- wrote: The progamer said, 10 hp or +1 armor to hydralisk is small buff, compared to the gas.
I thought 10hp and +1 armor is a huge buff too . . .
+1 armor is an insanely high survivability buff.
With 80 hp it takes a marine 14 shots to kill a hydralisk, with +1 armor it now takes 16 which is a 13% increase in survivability for that unit and a 17% reduction in damage from the marine. It doesn't seem like much but now over the course of like say 20 hydras @ 80 hp each that's an increase of 208 effective HP in that army. It's a pretty significant buff even though it seems so small.
That actually sounds excellent Marine vs Hydralisk will be downgraded from a Hydralisk extermination to only(!!) a Hydralisk massacre
Blizzard could buff the corruptor by giving them higher attack speed with lower damage so that pdd would be less impactful. And while rebalancing this way they could tweak the stats to also give a small strength increase vs protoss. (Corruptors are very boring though, so not sure how much I like making them stronger.)
Hydralisks have two expensive upgrades so knowing blizzard they'll probably remove one of them. It would still be a buff to hydras though.
On February 03 2014 18:08 Grumbels wrote: Blizzard could buff the corruptor by giving them higher attack speed with lower damage so that pdd would be less impactful. And while rebalancing this way they could tweak the stats to also give a small strength increase vs protoss. (Corruptors are very boring though, so not sure how much I like making them stronger.)
Hydralisks have two expensive upgrades so knowing blizzard they'll probably remove one of them. It would still be a buff to hydras though.
If you don´t want to buff boring corruptors then something like fungal damage against shields is needed. Zerg AA just is not good enough against toss air. Hydras also melt to toss aoe damage Give zerg some way to fight toss late game and you can also change the SH.
Nice feedback from the players. I hope Blizz will take them into account. I like miniguns thoughts about overcharge casting range and MSC vision range. Sounds a pretty good idea imo. And of course, the hydra buff has to be a joke.
On February 03 2014 18:08 Grumbels wrote: Blizzard could buff the corruptor by giving them higher attack speed with lower damage so that pdd would be less impactful. And while rebalancing this way they could tweak the stats to also give a small strength increase vs protoss. (Corruptors are very boring though, so not sure how much I like making them stronger.)
Hydralisks have two expensive upgrades so knowing blizzard they'll probably remove one of them. It would still be a buff to hydras though.
If you don´t want to buff boring corruptors then something like fungal damage against shields is needed. Zerg AA just is not good enough against toss air. Hydras also melt to toss aoe damage Give zerg some way to fight toss late game and you can also change the SH.
Do the balance numbers reflect this need for a buff to AA? Terran Mech is still relatively new as is SH Turtle style. So, it's not like the numbers are being weighted by these styles (at least not yet). Code S has near equal representation of Z and P. Overall win rates are still quite good. I don't know what they are precisely, but last I heard they were well within acceptable range.
I am hearing this need for better AA a lot but is it for aesthetic reasons or for balance? Is there a valid reason at all?
On February 03 2014 18:08 Grumbels wrote: Blizzard could buff the corruptor by giving them higher attack speed with lower damage so that pdd would be less impactful. And while rebalancing this way they could tweak the stats to also give a small strength increase vs protoss. (Corruptors are very boring though, so not sure how much I like making them stronger.)
Hydralisks have two expensive upgrades so knowing blizzard they'll probably remove one of them. It would still be a buff to hydras though.
If you don´t want to buff boring corruptors then something like fungal damage against shields is needed. Zerg AA just is not good enough against toss air. Hydras also melt to toss aoe damage Give zerg some way to fight toss late game and you can also change the SH.
Do the balance numbers reflect this need for a buff to AA? Terran Mech is still relatively new as is SH Turtle style. So, it's not like the numbers are being weighted by these styles (at least not yet). Code S has near equal representation of Z and P. Overall win rates are still quite good. I don't know what they are precisely, but last I heard they were well within acceptable range.
I am hearing this need for better AA a lot but is it for aesthetic reasons or for balance? Is there a valid reason at all?
woah half gas cost. Who the fuck decided this might be a good idea for a race that is designed around spamming units >_>? This seems like its addressing a problem that was present at the beginning of WoL where people decided roaches were more cost efficient due to gas costs and decided to flat out not make any hydras anymore.
Can someone calculate the cost efficiency between a hydra and a marine :D?
Maybe consider developing all future maps to the same extent as the main and natural of habitation station?
- Blinks are risky because the main/nat ramp is not easily timewarped and it is very limited space you can blink into the main - The natural ramp is relatively smaller and provides better defence for all races in all matchups. Making expansions a much more viable option but at the same time. - The smaller airspace makes oracles and terran drops as well as mutas less scary as well.
I think airspace and rush-distances can vary, but to me it is quite clear that the natural should have a permanent 2-by-3-by-1 grid ramp like habitation station as well as an uneasy accessable ramp, like some kind of obstacle or height-level must block in order to prevent abusive forcefields and timewarps as well as runbys.
Other than that, habitation station is a quite awful map because of the design of the gold base and the various abuses that lies there.
On February 03 2014 18:08 Grumbels wrote: Blizzard could buff the corruptor by giving them higher attack speed with lower damage so that pdd would be less impactful. And while rebalancing this way they could tweak the stats to also give a small strength increase vs protoss. (Corruptors are very boring though, so not sure how much I like making them stronger.)
Hydralisks have two expensive upgrades so knowing blizzard they'll probably remove one of them. It would still be a buff to hydras though.
If you don´t want to buff boring corruptors then something like fungal damage against shields is needed. Zerg AA just is not good enough against toss air. Hydras also melt to toss aoe damage Give zerg some way to fight toss late game and you can also change the SH.
Do the balance numbers reflect this need for a buff to AA? Terran Mech is still relatively new as is SH Turtle style. So, it's not like the numbers are being weighted by these styles (at least not yet). Code S has near equal representation of Z and P. Overall win rates are still quite good. I don't know what they are precisely, but last I heard they were well within acceptable range.
I am hearing this need for better AA a lot but is it for aesthetic reasons or for balance? Is there a valid reason at all?
Scarlett says so. :o
Ha! Hey, I like the Hydra and a better Hydra sounds good to me. But, I get the feeling that where this buff is concerned there is a danger of repetition, "Zerg need something!" becoming fact. I just want to know if the balance numbers and performance at the highest level of play actually reflect the need for a strong buff to Zerg for balance reasons. So far, I don't think I see it.
On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote: thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it.
e:
On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:
On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote: The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto.
There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years'
If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it.
Or they might be dead wrong but be unable or unwilling to realise it or accept it.
Unlikely. You can't really be wrong about a subjective experience of fun anyway. Your passive-aggressive defense of every aspect of the game strikes me as somewhat frantic.
On February 03 2014 18:08 Grumbels wrote: Blizzard could buff the corruptor by giving them higher attack speed with lower damage so that pdd would be less impactful. And while rebalancing this way they could tweak the stats to also give a small strength increase vs protoss. (Corruptors are very boring though, so not sure how much I like making them stronger.)
Hydralisks have two expensive upgrades so knowing blizzard they'll probably remove one of them. It would still be a buff to hydras though.
If you don´t want to buff boring corruptors then something like fungal damage against shields is needed. Zerg AA just is not good enough against toss air. Hydras also melt to toss aoe damage Give zerg some way to fight toss late game and you can also change the SH.
Do the balance numbers reflect this need for a buff to AA? Terran Mech is still relatively new as is SH Turtle style. So, it's not like the numbers are being weighted by these styles (at least not yet). Code S has near equal representation of Z and P. Overall win rates are still quite good. I don't know what they are precisely, but last I heard they were well within acceptable range.
I am hearing this need for better AA a lot but is it for aesthetic reasons or for balance? Is there a valid reason at all?
The better zerg AA would ideally coincide with a SH nerf/redesign. If you look at pro feedback over the past few months, a lot of Zergs hate the turtle SH style just as much as their counterparts. It's just that they're forced into it to stand any chance vs the P deathball.
On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote: thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it.
e:
On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:
On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote: [quote]
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto.
There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years'
If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it.
Or they might be dead wrong but be unable or unwilling to realise it or accept it.
Unlikely. You can't really be wrong about a subjective experience of fun anyway. Your passive-aggressive defense of every aspect of the game strikes me as somewhat frantic.
On February 03 2014 18:08 Grumbels wrote: Blizzard could buff the corruptor by giving them higher attack speed with lower damage so that pdd would be less impactful. And while rebalancing this way they could tweak the stats to also give a small strength increase vs protoss. (Corruptors are very boring though, so not sure how much I like making them stronger.)
Hydralisks have two expensive upgrades so knowing blizzard they'll probably remove one of them. It would still be a buff to hydras though.
If you don´t want to buff boring corruptors then something like fungal damage against shields is needed. Zerg AA just is not good enough against toss air. Hydras also melt to toss aoe damage Give zerg some way to fight toss late game and you can also change the SH.
Do the balance numbers reflect this need for a buff to AA? Terran Mech is still relatively new as is SH Turtle style. So, it's not like the numbers are being weighted by these styles (at least not yet). Code S has near equal representation of Z and P. Overall win rates are still quite good. I don't know what they are precisely, but last I heard they were well within acceptable range.
I am hearing this need for better AA a lot but is it for aesthetic reasons or for balance? Is there a valid reason at all?
The better zerg AA would ideally coincide with a SH nerf/redesign. If you look at pro feedback over the past few months, a lot of Zergs hate the turtle SH style just as much as their counterparts. It's just that they're forced into it to stand any chance vs the P deathball.
Ah, thanks. I haven't seen the SH Turtle style much (maybe I haven't seen enough games) although - admittedly - a lot more recently. So, it's to stop Z being backed into a corner by p/T? If so, that's a fair reason. And a better Hydra would be good.
On February 03 2014 18:08 Grumbels wrote: Blizzard could buff the corruptor by giving them higher attack speed with lower damage so that pdd would be less impactful. And while rebalancing this way they could tweak the stats to also give a small strength increase vs protoss. (Corruptors are very boring though, so not sure how much I like making them stronger.)
Hydralisks have two expensive upgrades so knowing blizzard they'll probably remove one of them. It would still be a buff to hydras though.
If you don´t want to buff boring corruptors then something like fungal damage against shields is needed. Zerg AA just is not good enough against toss air. Hydras also melt to toss aoe damage Give zerg some way to fight toss late game and you can also change the SH.
Do the balance numbers reflect this need for a buff to AA? Terran Mech is still relatively new as is SH Turtle style. So, it's not like the numbers are being weighted by these styles (at least not yet). Code S has near equal representation of Z and P. Overall win rates are still quite good. I don't know what they are precisely, but last I heard they were well within acceptable range.
I am hearing this need for better AA a lot but is it for aesthetic reasons or for balance? Is there a valid reason at all?
The better zerg AA would ideally coincide with a SH nerf/redesign. If you look at pro feedback over the past few months, a lot of Zergs hate the turtle SH style just as much as their counterparts. It's just that they're forced into it to stand any chance vs the P deathball.
Ah, thanks. I haven't seen the SH Turtle style much (maybe I haven't seen enough games) although - admittedly - a lot more recently. So, it's to stop Z being backed into a corner by p/T? If so, that's a fair reason. And a better Hydra would be good.
The current "better hydra" will just lead to some sick timing push, but it won't be much of use in macro TvZ mech. Buffing a bit its resistance or something is much better than make it twice cheaper. I agree with others here, zerg need a much better AA, but SH should be nerfed, because an unit that spawn 2 free hydra every 30s is kinda ridiculous.
Let me just say that I like what they're trying to accomplish with changing the Hydra. Currently there's no place for Hydras, early game they're ruled out by Roaches. In anti-air they're often ruled out by Queens and in lategame they're ruled out by Swarm Hosts. Having many counter units they only fulfill a niche. I feel this is the wrong approach trying to take some of that power back and I think instead they should try and find a new role for the Hydralisk giving it something unique.
On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote: thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it.
e:
On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:
On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote: [quote]
Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.
Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units. Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto.
There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years'
If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it.
Or they might be dead wrong but be unable or unwilling to realise it or accept it.
Unlikely. You can't really be wrong about a subjective experience of fun anyway. Your passive-aggressive defense of every aspect of the game strikes me as somewhat frantic.
Well he is a zealot after all. ;D ;D ;D
But yea tbh you've got to be delusional not to realize the flaws that this game's had since its inception. I mean it's great that Blizzard are still trying to fix things, but still...
Then again looking at this suggested batch of chances it makes you wonder if they have any idea what the problems are, since this would break more than it would fix for sure.
On February 03 2014 18:08 Grumbels wrote: Blizzard could buff the corruptor by giving them higher attack speed with lower damage so that pdd would be less impactful. And while rebalancing this way they could tweak the stats to also give a small strength increase vs protoss. (Corruptors are very boring though, so not sure how much I like making them stronger.)
Hydralisks have two expensive upgrades so knowing blizzard they'll probably remove one of them. It would still be a buff to hydras though.
If you don´t want to buff boring corruptors then something like fungal damage against shields is needed. Zerg AA just is not good enough against toss air. Hydras also melt to toss aoe damage Give zerg some way to fight toss late game and you can also change the SH.
Do the balance numbers reflect this need for a buff to AA? Terran Mech is still relatively new as is SH Turtle style. So, it's not like the numbers are being weighted by these styles (at least not yet). Code S has near equal representation of Z and P. Overall win rates are still quite good. I don't know what they are precisely, but last I heard they were well within acceptable range.
I am hearing this need for better AA a lot but is it for aesthetic reasons or for balance? Is there a valid reason at all?
If you want to nerf SH, you need to buff zerg AA. If you're fine with status quo, then no. The obsession with win rates is misleading. WoL was close to 50/50 in ZvP too for a long while, and the match up was still awful. SH turtle is far and away the best way to play late game ZvP. Again, this has nothing to do with balance, it's about making ZvP less shit.
On February 03 2014 18:43 Faust852 wrote: SH should be nerfed, because an unit that spawn 2 free hydra every 30s is kinda ridiculous.
Hydralisks: 6 range, shoots up. Locust: 2 range (where did the other 4 range go then?!), does not shoot up(wtf?)
All that is equal would be its dps. But did you know that 6 siege tanks can hold off locusts indefinitely without ever taking damage? And did you know that a colossus or 6 can do the same? Also, once you get a mothership , your locusts cant do damage anymore. Last but not least, having 2 instead of 6 range and not shooting up means their effective DPS is not anywhere near a hydralisks. Look at zerglings vs marines for example, 3/3 cracklings have more dps than 3/3 stimmed marines, yet the marines have much more effective DPS since they have 5 range.
Now please stop being so anti-zerg bias, with your ridiculous statements.
On February 03 2014 18:08 Grumbels wrote: Blizzard could buff the corruptor by giving them higher attack speed with lower damage so that pdd would be less impactful. And while rebalancing this way they could tweak the stats to also give a small strength increase vs protoss. (Corruptors are very boring though, so not sure how much I like making them stronger.)
Hydralisks have two expensive upgrades so knowing blizzard they'll probably remove one of them. It would still be a buff to hydras though.
If you don´t want to buff boring corruptors then something like fungal damage against shields is needed. Zerg AA just is not good enough against toss air. Hydras also melt to toss aoe damage Give zerg some way to fight toss late game and you can also change the SH.
Do the balance numbers reflect this need for a buff to AA? Terran Mech is still relatively new as is SH Turtle style. So, it's not like the numbers are being weighted by these styles (at least not yet). Code S has near equal representation of Z and P. Overall win rates are still quite good. I don't know what they are precisely, but last I heard they were well within acceptable range.
I am hearing this need for better AA a lot but is it for aesthetic reasons or for balance? Is there a valid reason at all?
If you want to nerf SH, you need to buff zerg AA. If you're fine with status quo, then no. The obsession with win rates is misleading. WoL was close to 50/50 in ZvP too for a long while, and the match up was still awful. SH turtle is far and away the best way to play late game ZvP. Again, this has nothing to do with balance, it's about making ZvP less shit.
The valid reason is to make the game better.
I think it's hilarious that even David Kim & co. have figured this out before some people on here. xD
I wonder what would happen to that mass voidray style vs zerg if guardian shield just didn't affect air units anymore. (It doesn't affect high ground units when the sentry is on low ground but it does affect air units - so it would even be more consistent). With that change there might be no need for a hydra buff at all anymore - and it would almost exclusively affect pvz , so wouldn't risk screwing up zvt or zvz.
Ghost buff should be done in an other way if at all, improving timings is a bit stupid and doesn't help lategame issues at all.
Hydra buff is way too big, just give them +5 or +10 hp, possibly attached to the range upgrade to prevent timings from being too strong. +1 armor is possible too but less optimal as it would do practically nothing in ZvZ while being very strong against voidrays and marines. Slightly more hp or slightly faster attack would just be a good nudge in every matchup. I do agree with blizzard they could use a small nudge just to make ZvZ better and potentially make the roach/hydra style viable in ZvT while slightly buffing Z in ZvP (it moves ZvP away from SH a bit more which is better I think, SH could hopefully be reworked later on to be really different and not the boring whittle away unit they are now)
Minigun's opinion on MSC nerf is great, this does practically nothing for bringing back terran timings but hurts expanding in PvP the most. The msc is a hard design to fix because it's role is neccesary for PvP expanding but makes TvP terrible. Reducing the casting range and vision seem like better idea's to fix all-ins and the ease the MSC effectively defends two bases while still making it good enough to defend expansions. Another possibility is a small delay to the cannon or range reduction so terran can actually poke and get out without losing all their marines. At the same time oracle should be changed to armored instead of light I think. This matters nothing for PvZ. In PvT vikings become slightly better against them and thors slightly worse, overall slightly better for terran as vikings are easier to get early on. In PvP it makes stalkers much better at defending against oracles, you could basically defend mineral lines with 2 instead of 3 which is critical for making expanding somewhat reliable if the MSC get's nerfed.
Are there many timings that center around ghosts? I've always thought of ghosts as a unit you might want to transition into in the late-game, not a unit that serves as the cornerstone of so many timings the same way, say, the colossus functions.
On February 03 2014 16:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote: re: Hydra Buff~
While this may not be the correct solution, Zerg does need some form off anti-air buff. As it stands, the only way to deal with mid-lategame mech or mid-lategame skytoss is with mass spores (&viper/swarmhost) causing the turtle games everyone hates to watch. Instead, a smaller hydra buff in addition to a corruptor buff could be feasible (corruptors really are trash units 90% of the time), or reverting one of the two HotS void ray buffs
That is for sure, Zerg AA has always been an issue since the beginning of WoL. However, I don't really see what kind of buff you could do to be able to fight a Sky toss/mech army with corruptors or Hydralisk. I mean, some kind of buff of the corruption spell or the giving Hydra + 1 range in ground to air fight or +10 hp could help in the mid game, but I still don't see how you could fight a late game army without the mass SH/viper/sporecrawler.
they probably won't decrease MSC vision range because it is one of the main purpose of the unit. They might consider the cast range though. I remember a version of the MSC having to bind to the nexus in order for it to work.
On February 03 2014 19:44 Grumbels wrote: Are there many timings that center around ghosts? I've always thought of ghosts as a unit you might want to transition into in the late-game, not a unit that serves as the cornerstone of so many timings the same way, say, the colossus functions.
Actually, in WoL before EMP range was nerfed. Ghost timings were very strong (since WoL early/mid game PvT revolved around sentries and ramp blocking. Although I am not sure whether the new ghosts will be enough to shift the match up, we need to see how the timings work out.
I think we need to stop looking at just end game compositions in isolation. Like in WoL, Mvp showed that turtle mass ravens was almost unbreakable (Metropolis). However, very few maps allows the terran to do this (split map while defending 2 tight chokes. If the ghost buffs forces the protoss to build a bigger army before taking their third or making HT openings more risky, that will translate into big differences in the late game. It is ok for one race's end game comp to be 'better', as long as getting to that comp has risks and the other races has large enough timing windows. One of the issues with TvP now is that the early game options of the protoss make terrans have to play defensive that their mid game timing window is so small and relies on the protoss to make a significant mistake to do damage.
TvT is actually a good example. mech > bio/biotank when max but there are a lot of things the bio player can do throughout the mid/late game. mass air > mech but again, transition to air is very risky since you can get caught mid transition. Also, this is why BL/infestors were such a problem only after the Queen buff. It allowed zergs to get to infestors relatively easily.
Are there many timings that center around ghosts? I've always thought of ghosts as a unit you might want to transition into in the late-game, not a unit that serves as the cornerstone of so many timings the same way, say, the colossus functions.
The Ghost Scv Allin was super strong. There's also been some in the past, but not so prevalent, when Protoss can open both High Templars and Colossus.
On February 03 2014 17:05 vthree wrote: Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
Actually protoss was and is underpowered. Nothing change since the release of HOTS. Game was stale for almost a year. But all of a sudden protoss became OP. Logics.
With ghost buff we can do crazy proxy ghost allin like standard 3 ghost +scv push but 3rax at home and 2 rax in proxy near toss so we will have about 30sec earlier timing.
or may be add 1 ghost with invis and energy for 1 emp, so that hopefully you can get close to msc and emp it before your allin push. or try to have 1 ghost drop near msc and emp then push. 8 - )
On February 03 2014 17:05 vthree wrote: Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
Actually protoss was and is underpowered. Nothing change since the release of HOTS. Game was stale for almost a year. But all of a sudden protoss became OP. Logics.
Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
On February 03 2014 17:05 vthree wrote: Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
Actually protoss was and is underpowered. Nothing change since the release of HOTS. Game was stale for almost a year. But all of a sudden protoss became OP. Logics.
Protoss is underpowered..? You''re like IdrA and Avilo in their whine prime.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
On February 02 2014 22:53 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Nice to hear from the pros as always. Though, the feedback is a bit disappointing. It's just a higher-tier of players echoing pretty much everything people are saying in the balance thread with little added insight this time around.
MSC: Not enough
Ghost: Doesn't get to the core problem of mech. Encourages cheese/timings
Tempest: Unsure/sucks
Hydralisk: The stupidest change of them all by a fair margin. Even the zergs think it's stupid.
Actually as a platinum zerg player a buff like this would bring me back to the game. End of WoL was stupid and boring as a Zerg player and HotS didn't fix any of the stuff for Zerg except a bit of a more useful Ultra. Swarmhost I hate and I will not be using them and any change that nerfs them and makes other units like hydra more useful will make me want to play again.
It seems that Zergs rather than buff hydras, they need a new AA system. Infestor´s fungal with bonus against air? like a skillshot with a reward for landing those fungals. Who knows.
BTW It´s very interesting to read Pros analisis, sadly some of them are a bit too favoring race.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
I'd like that too, but the corruptor is a good candidate for most uninteresting unit in the game. I'd say make hydras better rather than cheaper and maybe do something interesting with the infestor. Infesteds are shit now anyway, might as well replace them with something useful. ZvP isn't that bad from a balance perspective, it's just the gameplay that leaves a lot to be desired. Just making hydras a lot cheaper could have some severe repercussions.
Wont do much about the turtle unless Blizzard is willing to go further than I imagine, but it could be a start.
Yeah, I think making hydra's slightly more durable would be a much much better option. The issue isn't really that you can't get enough, the issue is them being slaughtered before doing anything. This will not fix this, and will only serve to make timings much more annoying to deal with for Protoss in particular.
But the only thing I truly see here is.... THERE IS STILL NO NYDUS BUFF! :p
It seems that Zergs rather than buff hydras, they need a new AA system. Infestor´s fungal with bonus against air? like a skillshot with a reward for landing those fungals. Who knows.
They almost removed Fungals hitting air at one point :D
I think that people still don't get the greatest benefit of the 25 gas Hydras:
1 less base will be required to produce them.. THAT'S the BIGGEST of all.. The Hydralisk will be a fairly well round and extremely high damage MINERAL SINK unit.. YES - that's the BIGGEST DIFFERENCE.. It will be a MINERAL SINK unit - almost like a Zealot or Marine
There will be a new strat with the Hydras overall - like a 2 base 3 Hatch Hydra.. But since it's a fairly Mineral Sink unit - might make an all-in in terms of not being able to expand or invest into eco with making them, but surely you would end up having a gas bank if you mine gas effectively behind them.. AND THEN - who knows which transitions might come out - Hydras into Mutas, Hydras into Infestors, Hydras into BroodLords.. Like - noone knows at this point (probably cause noone tests it to the full potential)
I myself am a bad player and admit it didn't play more than a few games.. BUT those who can, can actually make a good feedback..
=========================================================================== The greatest problem of the Protoss (or PvZ against the "hybrid mode Zerg" when the Hydra gas cost is halved) is that Roaches can be defended with a Half tech of Protoss.. i.e. - Voidrays or Immortals.. Whilest for Hydras a full tech will be required by Protoss - i.e. - Colossi or Carrier, or Templar.. Like - that's by far the biggest difference of them all.. I am a (partial time) Bronzie ATM, but pretty sure that I know what I'm talking about
Now you might say that Hydras were T1 unit in BW and Protoss needed full tech vs Hydras as well - well - the problem is that in BW Protoss didn't have to fully commit to Air units to defend a possible Muta switch.. Now in SC2 they have to.. It was like 4-5 Sairs and you're good to go to start working on Templars, now it is either far too micro-heavy to make it happen, or it just plain isn't enough at this point
=========================================================================== And as a "representative" of the "noobs" - everyone says the TvP problem is early timing and such.. Don't fully disagree, might be a thread of truth in that too.. But what I also think that Terran problem is that - the race as a whole has only one Core versatile unit - the Marine.. AND - not everyone is good on Marine splitting.. Everything else is either designed to be a timing-unit, or a special-occasion unit, or a Marine-support unit.. The only 2 "exceptions" of this rule are Banshees and Thors which can operate both on their own, but their problems respectively is that the first are "dead in the water" if opponent has Air units and the second requires some "fodder support".. Therefore the race ends up having only 1 Core (or at least only one versatile and easily produce-able) unit as a whole
And IMO it's AT LEAST a bad "marketing" to make a whole damn race performance depend on splitting a T1 unit.. That's why everyone asks for a Mech buff for game's sake.. THAT, and for the sake of diversity in the matchup..
So - any mech buff would be good ATM.. And it's not hard to make it happen either - considering that the only real thing that has to be taken into consideration is to watch out to not cause Zerg suffer more cause of the change.. A good move for example is test out some ways to make the WM being better vs Protoss and better Tank/Flank-guard unit.. IDK about higher league levels, but I guarantee you that that's like 80% of what Terran lacks on the lower league levels - make one factory unit being able to guard Tanks from Zealots and Immortals.. In the case of Zealots - perhaps Hellbats are OK, but nothing seems to be in the case of Immortals..
So by having that in mind it's a simple fix IMO - try make the WM "activate" from further away if a mech (i.e. - non-bio) unit is in the vicinity for a test example.. See how it turns out.. See how often will Mines trigger on Immortals, is it possible to "hold tank lines" at least half-decently.. OR EVEN BETTER - make mines Trigger from further away against ROBOTIC units.. Pretty sure that that "class" existed in the game.. Or was it only in BW.. ?? Not sure though :/
But yah - make Mines trigger from fruther away vs Immortals and that's like half of the problem solved.. If not all of it as a whole
=========================================================================== As for the SwarmHost - it's fairly easy - it is THE ONLY ZERG UNIT (beside the Zergling) that has a diminished creep speed bonus (the Locust I mean).. The Queen and the Crawlers have 150% movement increase, The Zergling has 30%, and the Locust has 40% movement speed increase.. Everything else Zerg that's on the ground unit has a 50% movement speed creep bonus.. The Roach, Hydra, Ultra, SwarmHost.. ofc. Hydras have the speed upgrade that increases their non-creep bonus, but that's OK.. Like - why do the Locusts have diminished creep-spread bonus ?
Make the Locust have it's full Creep-speed benefit (i.e. 50% instead of 40% creep speed bonus), make it 2 range instead of 3 (so could be easier dealt with, in terms of having a smaller concave, and having a smaller sniping potential), AND - REMOVE THE UPGRADE.. See how it goes.. And if that makes the unit bad - then just reduce the spawning locust period and therefore reduce the vulnerability length of the unit
If SHs without the upgrade are too damn vulnerable and are nearly untouchable with it - then clearly something about the unit is badly designed.. Simple
For me the corruptor and the colossus are the two units I hate the most. Doesnt matter if its playing with them or against them, or watching them in pro games. Blizzard will probably never get rid of the colossus because they think its so "cool" lol, but maybe the corruptor can take a very long vacation :o
You can not buff Corruptors, cause it will make muta corruptor composition unstoppable for P.
Once, Z reaches critical mass of M and C, Protoss has only 2 choices, stupid base trade or upgraded phoenixes. Better Corruptors will hit the 2nd option, and will result in even more base trades.
I am also for a vision nerf, but i feeld one big problem in tvp early game is, that terrans dont have a single strong opening to punish a greedy toss, so they can play exrtrem tech heavy or go for a very strong allin without any early game defence.
So my idea is not to nerf the po duration, but the range to make some sort of 111 openings viable again, u cant rly use them atm, because the nexus can focus down the tanks, but with little less range that would not be possible and then toss need to be more active with early game scauting and cant play that greedy anymore, so every allin or every fast tech is slightly delayed.
I wonder how many of the pros have a "good guy" approach, look at sc2 in the long run and want it to become balanced. And how many want the $$$ so they support retarded changes or will complain no matter what. Im not wise enough to judge on the incoming changes, some seem too much for me. I remember Kim saying the numbers were good(ish) for the 312342341234 time he got asked, a few weeks ago. These changes seem to be heavily nerfing toss. Im pretty certain that if they break something bad, I wont be here to wait for another "fix". Some people say Blizzard doesnt care for balance, Ive been saying for more than 8 years that they do care, but they choose to make complicated games and they CANT balance them. Some people dont mind, some do. I guess in any competitive game, like wow pvp or sc, sc2, wc3 it has the top priority. If you cant have balance there isnt much reason in competing. Something thats for fun or coop/pve, you dont really mind.
On February 03 2014 22:02 GoOdy wrote: I am also for a vision nerf, but i feeld one big problem in tvp early game is, that terrans dont have a single strong opening to punish a greedy toss, so they can play exrtrem tech heavy or go for a very strong allin without any early game defence.
So my idea is not to nerf the po duration, but the range to make some sort of 111 openings viable again, u cant rly use them atm, because the nexus can focus down the tanks, but with little less range that would not be possible and then toss need to be more active with early game scauting and cant play that greedy anymore, so every allin or every fast tech is slightly delayed.
This would also create a very convenient transition into tvp mech, which seems to be something Blizzard wants to see as they have made quite a few mech buffs during the past 6 months
It seems that Zergs rather than buff hydras, they need a new AA system. Infestor´s fungal with bonus against air? like a skillshot with a reward for landing those fungals. Who knows.
They almost removed Fungals hitting air at one point :D
Making fungal good vs whatever was beating zerg is what led to the broodlord infestor horribleness. It's a retarded spell at the best of times, belongs in the skip with forcefield.
On February 03 2014 21:53 TW wrote: You can not buff Corruptors, cause it will make muta corruptor composition unstoppable for P.
Once, Z reaches critical mass of M and C, Protoss has only 2 choices, stupid base trade or upgraded phoenixes. Better Corruptors will hit the 2nd option, and will result in even more base trades.
Hmm, how about giving corruptors a morph firebat-like from Armoured Carapace to Fleshy Carapace. This would cocoon them for ~5seconds before emerging looking noticeably different, and having Light rather than Armoured type. (And also -1 armour).
This way you could defeat massed void rays with Fleshy Corruptors, but they would be very vulnerable to Phoenix who would now do 18 instead of 6 damage a shot. This would mean if you caught the Phoenix out of position you could attack the void rays, then morph back.
vs Stalkers they would take 3 less damage a shot, but they would be very vulnerable to Phoenixes.
vs Terran, they would be much better against Vikings, but would really suffer against marines and Thors.
It would be a buff, but it would have pros and cons, so might lead to more interesting play? As people have mentioned, corruptors are currently rather boring units.
Duration decrease won't really impact TvP, which arguably needs the most attention right now. I guess they don't want to drastically lower it for the sake of PvP and how volatile the match up is, surely there are other angles they could balance it from.
Time Warp energy increase is a good step, but ultimately not enough. Vision range NEEDS to be reduced, amongst other things.
Can't really comment on Tempest, it seems this unit is being tweaked due to how Swarm Host ZvP games usually work out, instead of buffing the Tempest, why are they not addressing one of the worst designed units in the game (Swarm Host) instead?
Ghost upgrade doesn't really address the issues people are having in TvP. While it is a pretty strong change, it fails to help Terrans early game options, and instead seems to be a change that will only impact timings in the mid game. I hear people talking that it will completely shut down HT openers, but if you want a ghost or two for the usual timing (around 10 minutes) you need to cut 300/200 minerals and gas from somewhere to afford it, you either delay upgrades/medivacs/or how early your timing is just to have ghosts out for the push. It will be forgiving on Terrans who have bad macro, apart from that I don't see how it helps with what people are having difficulty with.
The Zerg change is just really baseless, I have no idea why they want to even think about testing this change. The impact it would have especially on ZvP is just silly.
I honestly do not know how I would propose to fix the TvP issues. I feel the Mothership Core is too valuable offensively and defensively. Objectively Protoss have more VIABLE early game options that the Terran currently, powerful 1 base and 2 base timings, while having the option for safe, greedy macro focused play, which culminates in a powerful, hard to handle late game army. TvP feels stagnant on the Terran side, and I honestly don't know how Blizzard will address this without drastically changing the match up.
On February 03 2014 22:02 GoOdy wrote: I am also for a vision nerf, but i feeld one big problem in tvp early game is, that terrans dont have a single strong opening to punish a greedy toss, so they can play exrtrem tech heavy or go for a very strong allin without any early game defence.
So my idea is not to nerf the po duration, but the range to make some sort of 111 openings viable again, u cant rly use them atm, because the nexus can focus down the tanks, but with little less range that would not be possible and then toss need to be more active with early game scauting and cant play that greedy anymore, so every allin or every fast tech is slightly delayed.
That's a pretty interesting approach. If the po had a range of 11 or 12 instead of 13 siegetanks would be able to outrange it, while toss has the ability to snipe the unit or building providing the vision for the tank. That could be an interesting dynamic that opens up counter play. The current state with po range =tank range+ extreme vision on the mothership core is just one sided. A reduced casting range for po is also worth considering.
On February 03 2014 22:02 GoOdy wrote: I am also for a vision nerf, but i feeld one big problem in tvp early game is, that terrans dont have a single strong opening to punish a greedy toss, so they can play exrtrem tech heavy or go for a very strong allin without any early game defence.
So my idea is not to nerf the po duration, but the range to make some sort of 111 openings viable again, u cant rly use them atm, because the nexus can focus down the tanks, but with little less range that would not be possible and then toss need to be more active with early game scauting and cant play that greedy anymore, so every allin or every fast tech is slightly delayed.
I agree an proposed that among other necessary changes here
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
On February 03 2014 21:34 VArsovskiSC wrote: If SHs without the upgrade are too damn vulnerable and are nearly untouchable with it - then clearly something about the unit is badly designed.. Simple
Sounds exactly like the siege tank and the collosus.
Protoss Mothership Core: Will benefit PvT and PvP a lot which is good, for PvZ it didn't matter to much.
Tempest: I don't think this is a really big chance, so I am not sure about this one.
Terran Ghost: I think the Ghost were good enough already, just a lot of terrans not knowing how to control.
Zerg Hydralisk: Don't do this. Hydra's are already good, and will only make them better. I agree with TLO's perspective. Don't make the gas cost less, but try to patch them in a different way.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Protoss can also open VRs or Oracle into VR/Phoenix. They can also open with gateway expands into blink if they perform reasonable pressure in between. And as you said, various 2base perform well against mutas as well. Like the only openings that are straight up bad against mutas are DTs and Colossi.
And ffs, if Stargate is the best opening and can transition into basically whatever you want, then god damn use it. Zergs also should open roaches against FFEs, and rush melee ups against bio, Terran has to open hellions against Zerg and reaper/reactor against Protoss. The fact that you don't have to build a Stargate under all circumstances is already a strategical luxury that not every race in every matchup has.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Its just strange to see a flying ANTI AIR unit being massed to counter air units but get completely smashed by said air unit.
On February 03 2014 22:41 mau5mat wrote: Duration decrease won't really impact TvP, which arguably needs the most attention right now. I guess they don't want to drastically lower it for the sake of PvP and how volatile the match up is, surely there are other angles they could balance it from.
Time Warp energy increase is a good step, but ultimately not enough. Vision range NEEDS to be reduced, amongst other things.
Can't really comment on Tempest, it seems this unit is being tweaked due to how Swarm Host ZvP games usually work out, instead of buffing the Tempest, why are they not addressing one of the worst designed units in the game (Swarm Host) instead?
Ghost upgrade doesn't really address the issues people are having in TvP. While it is a pretty strong change, it fails to help Terrans early game options, and instead seems to be a change that will only impact timings in the mid game. I hear people talking that it will completely shut down HT openers, but if you want a ghost or two for the usual timing (around 10 minutes) you need to cut 300/200 minerals and gas from somewhere to afford it, you either delay upgrades/medivacs/or how early your timing is just to have ghosts out for the push. It will be forgiving on Terrans who have bad macro, apart from that I don't see how it helps with what people are having difficulty with.
The Zerg change is just really baseless, I have no idea why they want to even think about testing this change. The impact it would have especially on ZvP is just silly.
I honestly do not know how I would propose to fix the TvP issues. I feel the Mothership Core is too valuable offensively and defensively. Objectively Protoss have more VIABLE early game options that the Terran currently, powerful 1 base and 2 base timings, while having the option for safe, greedy macro focused play, which culminates in a powerful, hard to handle late game army. TvP feels stagnant on the Terran side, and I honestly don't know how Blizzard will address this without drastically changing the match up.
the ghost change isn´t strong at all. A lot of people are overestimating the cost of the upgrade when going ghosts. Most master league players are able to time out their first ghosts well enough that they start right at around 41 seconds of the upgrade. So we speak about 40 seconds that you get your ghosts earlier... And this is only relevant for defensive timings. Offensive timings are completely untouched, since you get the energy for one emp on your way to the protoss base. So in the end, terrans, going into the lategame, save 100/100... at a time where they will be on 3bases in most cases. Don´t know how in the world this can be considered strong.
So in summary, the most sensible counter-suggestions for the msc include:
- Sight Range - Casting Range - Cooldown - Photon Overcharge channeling (with ability to cancel) - Time Warp/Recall research upgrade from Cybernetics Core - Time Warp radius size - Mana cost
Whatever option or combination of options would be best should be decided from testing.
I like how the mana cost for photon overcharge and time warp is different. It can make a Protoss panic and waste a time warp, but if they cost the same the decision is easy.
I'm not sure on the channeling as it could make protoss more vulnerable to oracles. I'd be happy to try it on a test map though.
Research upgrade could allow for a scouting opponent to see both a twilight council and the cybercore researching. It would also force chrono boost to be spent differently, perhaps. Actually, I'm surprised that the msc has three spells available immediately for such a low-tech req caster. in wc3 you had to upgrade your casters...
Just some on-the-fly thoughts from a gold protoss.
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
I just insta /block every terran i meet nowadays. Problem solved.
Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
*facepalm* Protoss WERE underpowered at the time. You seriously going to try and claim the 1-1-1 period wasn't a big deal? It took several buffs and map changes to fix those problems up. And then Broodlord Infestor happened.
On topic: TLO giving the most balanced view here. And this Hydra thing is...well its going to be interesting. >_>
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote: It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.
balance whiners?
How about the sad zealot Fanclub? or did protoss forget about that? why is protoss using winrate now instead of tournament winners (like they did before protoss were winning tournaments, now that tournament finals are PvP, they want to talk about win rate instead of tournament winners? wtF? .
This was just not the same level. First the whine wasn't as toxic as what it was recently. Also the duration of the protoss slump was much much bigger. I did not want to argue about that but man, there is ABSOLUTELY no way protoss are harder than terran when it comes to balance whine. Fortunately here it's still relatively calm, but look at Twitch chat, slumping protoss has never whined that much on Twitch (I know this is an extreme example but it's still a good way to compare).
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
I just insta /block every terran i meet nowadays. Problem solved.
Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
*facepalm* Protoss WERE underpowered at the time. You seriously going to try and claim the 1-1-1 period wasn't a big deal? It took several buffs and map changes to fix those problems up. And then Broodlord Infestor happened.
On topic: TLO giving the most balanced view here. And this Hydra thing is...well its going to be interesting. >_>
*facepalm*. Are you really trying to STILL say the TvP match up has no problems NOW? Stop burying your head in your sand and ignore the issues with the match up. Are all the Terrans suggest fix viable, no. But if you feel nothing needs to be done with the match up (units, maps) , then I don't know what to say. Even most Protoss players in the forums now agree that some changes are needed.
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote: It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.
balance whiners?
How about the sad zealot Fanclub? or did protoss forget about that? why is protoss using winrate now instead of tournament winners (like they did before protoss were winning tournaments, now that tournament finals are PvP, they want to talk about win rate instead of tournament winners? wtF? .
This was just not the same level. First the whine wasn't as toxic as what it was recently. Also the duration of the protoss slump was much much bigger. I did not want to argue about that but man, there is ABSOLUTELY no way protoss are harder than terran when it comes to balance whine. Fortunately here it's still relatively calm, but look at Twitch chat, slumping protoss has never whined that much on Twitch (I know this is an extreme example but it's still a good way to compare).
Really? Twitch chat itself is getting more toxic. Or do you really believe that players that choose Terran somehow has a more whiny personality ? Did you see the whines from protosses on Twitch when Daedulus is played in PvZ? It is just as bad.
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
I just insta /block every terran i meet nowadays. Problem solved.
Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
*facepalm* Protoss WERE underpowered at the time. You seriously going to try and claim the 1-1-1 period wasn't a big deal? It took several buffs and map changes to fix those problems up. And then Broodlord Infestor happened.
On topic: TLO giving the most balanced view here. And this Hydra thing is...well its going to be interesting. >_>
*facepalm*. Are you really trying to STILL say the TvP match up has no problems NOW? Stop burying your head in your sand and ignore the issues with the match up. Are all the Terrans suggest fix viable, no. But if you feel nothing needs to be done with the match up (units, maps) , then I don't know what to say. Even most Protoss players in the forums now agree that some changes are needed.
I don't think he is... On the other hand, he says the game may not be as unbalanced as some people say.
should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
On February 03 2014 16:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote: re: Hydra Buff~
While this may not be the correct solution, Zerg does need some form off anti-air buff. As it stands, the only way to deal with mid-lategame mech or mid-lategame skytoss is with mass spores (&viper/swarmhost) causing the turtle games everyone hates to watch. Instead, a smaller hydra buff in addition to a corruptor buff could be feasible (corruptors really are trash units 90% of the time), or reverting one of the two HotS void ray buffs
How would a balancescaling adjustment in the likes of this sound given the presented ideas from you:
- Removing mutalisk rapid regeneration to make stalker + storms more viable against those
- Increasing the damage from corrupters from 14 (20 vs massive) to 16 (20 vs massive) for better anti voidray and compensating for mutalisk nerf
(2 less shots in order to kill a voidray) takes 18 with 14 dmg, 16 shots with 16 dmg (1 less shot to kill a phoenix) takes 13 with 14 dmg, 12 shots with 14 dmg
Damage versus carrier, tempest and colossus remains the same.
Damage is exponentially increased by the 20% damage bonus from corruption.
I believe corrupters wont really be used against banshees or medivacs as mutas has the mobile ability, so the only thing they can be used against in ZVT is battlecruisers, ravens and vikings. Versus vikings there will be a buff, and I think its fair given most corrupters are taking damage from ravens in mech lategame related situations.
The mutalisk nerf is also to be considered for ZVT, so a corrupter buff should be reasonable.
- Removing enduced locusts OR increase tempest damage from 30 to 30+30 vs structures
This is for obvious anti-swarmhost lategame situations. Reasons have already been explained by pros for this.
- Reduce vision on MSC from 14 to 11
I think this is good, but can cause problems for proxy scouting in PVP. Reasons have already been explained by pros for this.
- Increase hydralisk armor with 1
This is for anti-bio playstyle and versatility in ZVZ and ZVT. With a mutalisk nerf I think this compensates great.
Also, when mutas gets nerfed, protosses should not be able to whine about the risk of getting ling-hydraed into mutalisk.
With hydra armor, we will also see that phoenixes do less of a threat to them with pickups. How strong hydra timings then will be would depend on how great the mutalisk threat is. I think this will in the end result in what blizzard wants: A more core playstyle with hydras.
In your perspective, how would these changes sound to you?
I do not think nerfing voidrays is good since they have a variety of utility for earlygame ZVP as well. Buffing corrupters seems more reasonable.
Aside from this, removing energy upgrade for ghosts is something I am still unsure of. Requires testing.
I've read a couple of times now that 'Ghost are really good but Terrans don't use them well'- I honestly don't know what people mean with that. I for sure have pretty horrendous Ghost control, but any non1 number of HT vs non 1 number of Ghost in a perfect micro situation favors the HT (which never occurs btw).
On February 02 2014 22:32 SC2Toastie wrote: By the way, I proposed a change to Overcharge casting recently. Making Overcharge a Channeling spell (and thus cancellable) and giving MSC a small defensive bonus while channeling. That''d fix SO much.
And nobody responds to this. It'd allow for counterplay, dedicating all ins again, and force good positioning with the MSC.
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote: It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.
balance whiners?
How about the sad zealot Fanclub? or did protoss forget about that? why is protoss using winrate now instead of tournament winners (like they did before protoss were winning tournaments, now that tournament finals are PvP, they want to talk about win rate instead of tournament winners? wtF? .
This was just not the same level. First the whine wasn't as toxic as what it was recently. Also the duration of the protoss slump was much much bigger. I did not want to argue about that but man, there is ABSOLUTELY no way protoss are harder than terran when it comes to balance whine. Fortunately here it's still relatively calm, but look at Twitch chat, slumping protoss has never whined that much on Twitch (I know this is an extreme example but it's still a good way to compare).
Really? Twitch chat itself is getting more toxic. Or do you really believe that players that choose Terran somehow has a more whiny personality ? Did you see the whines from protosses on Twitch when Daedulus is played in PvZ? It is just as bad.
Nah, protoss won't say "those zerg skills" "30 APM and win easy" or things like that. They will say something like "this map is so BS" or "Daedalus, protoss is screwed". Something about the map, I rarely see people bashing the other races as hard as protoss are.
About the reason why protoss whine less / are more bashed, I think it's because P usually requires less APM. I also think it has something to do with the fact that P units are usually more expensive, each unit looks more OP. Even if terrans and zergs are aware the protoss units are more expensive so they need to be more powerful, I suppose they will tend to see them OP and annoying more naturally. That + some gimmicky plays from P, the warp in and the FF must be irritating to many players, making them more eager to whine. TBH I don't really know as I almost never play zerg and terran.
The thing is about us vocal whining Terrans is that I think most of us are plat/diamond/masters and at this level it's not about Protoss being OP. It's about them being much easier to play.
"Oh I forgot to macro for a whole minute... WARP IN YAY!!!!!!!!!"
"Oh, I wasn't looking at my army for 2 seconds, it's still very much alive cause tons of HP YAY!!!!!!!"
"Oh, i'm battling a Terran. I'll keep a moving forward and being able to macro a bit while the Terran endlessly stutter steps or dies YAY!!!!!"
"Oh, I need to buy time. Force fields and nexus cannon YAY!!!!!!!!"
"Oh, I need to scout. Hallucinate, observers, oracles, blah blah blah"
Terrans macro is harder, the micro is much more demanding, viable army comps are a glass cannon, and Terrans actually have to use creative tactics to buy themselves time. It's not the balance. It's the mechanics of playing toss that are lol worthy. It's like literally every core part of the game is easier to do as Protoss than Terran.
And I was also a much higher ranking Protoss player when I first played SC2, even though I'm much more experienced now and play Terran.
On February 03 2014 23:45 SC2Toastie wrote: I've read a couple of times now that 'Ghost are really good but Terrans don't use them well'- I honestly don't know what people mean with that. I for sure have pretty horrendous Ghost control, but any non1 number of HT vs non 1 number of Ghost in a perfect micro situation favors the HT (which never occurs btw).
On February 02 2014 22:32 SC2Toastie wrote: By the way, I proposed a change to Overcharge casting recently. Making Overcharge a Channeling spell (and thus cancellable) and giving MSC a small defensive bonus while channeling. That''d fix SO much.
And nobody responds to this. It'd allow for counterplay, dedicating all ins again, and force good positioning with the MSC.
I kinda prefer the solutions proposed by Minigun about the MSC. Being a channeling spell wouldn7t change so much imo, any decent player would be able to keep his MSC safe during the cast.
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
I just insta /block every terran i meet nowadays. Problem solved.
Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
*facepalm* Protoss WERE underpowered at the time. You seriously going to try and claim the 1-1-1 period wasn't a big deal? It took several buffs and map changes to fix those problems up. And then Broodlord Infestor happened.
On topic: TLO giving the most balanced view here. And this Hydra thing is...well its going to be interesting. >_>
*facepalm*. Are you really trying to STILL say the TvP match up has no problems NOW? Stop burying your head in your sand and ignore the issues with the match up. Are all the Terrans suggest fix viable, no. But if you feel nothing needs to be done with the match up (units, maps) , then I don't know what to say. Even most Protoss players in the forums now agree that some changes are needed.
I don't think he is... On the other hand, he says the game may not be as unbalanced as some people say.
should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
THIS is definitely a true statement.
I would agree that it isn't as bad as back then. But in terms of the pro scene, the fact that players are much better now make the imbalances more glaring. Since back then, players frequently made major mistakes that lost them games regardless. Pro players now make less mistakes (or smaller ones) so 'balance' plays a bigger part in the outcome. Code S has 3 Terrans.
I know some Protoss will say some of the top Terrans aren't playing in KR. But the past weekend, the top Terrans that many people listed Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, Taeja were all in action and they were competing mostly with Koreans zergs/pro tosses that are playing in EU. And Ps still won out. So one could argue that even if all the Koreans were still playing in KR, the distribution would be similar.
Am I saying there is only 3 Terrans just of imbalance, no. Some players did underperform, but the margin of error is much lower for Terran right now. You can watch the games and point out mistakes each Terran made, but you can do the same for their Protoss opponents as well. Right now, if both players play at the same 'level', the Protoss will likely win. Of course, the map pool isn't helping.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Protoss can also open VRs or Oracle into VR/Phoenix. They can also open with gateway expands into blink if they perform reasonable pressure in between. And as you said, various 2base perform well against mutas as well. Like the only openings that are straight up bad against mutas are DTs and Colossi.
And ffs, if Stargate is the best opening and can transition into basically whatever you want, then god damn use it. Zergs also should open roaches against FFEs, and rush melee ups against bio, Terran has to open hellions against Zerg and reaper/reactor against Protoss. The fact that you don't have to build a Stargate under all circumstances is already a strategical luxury that not every race in every matchup has.
Well, opening with like one Viodray or Oracle, into Phoenixes, is still Phoenix opening. You can open with blink, but it has to be 2-base all-in or greedy third into mass Phoenix, if Zerg goes Mutas. 2-base all-ins are good against Mutas, becouse they hit before larger number of Mutas is on the field. I don't like, that only option against Mutas is Phoenix, since HotS blink Stalkers cannot catch up with Mutas, becouse buffed speed, and defensive HTs aren't option either, becouse of insane regen. But I didn't want to talk about Muta problem here, although I think Mutas are too strong in TvZ too. I was trying to say, that Zerg has only 2 options in ZvP, one of them is Mutas, which requires blind countering in every game from Protoss (big design issue IMO), and second leads to very long (this is not neccesarilly bad though) and boring games (which is huge design issue as well).
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
I just insta /block every terran i meet nowadays. Problem solved.
Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
*facepalm* Protoss WERE underpowered at the time. You seriously going to try and claim the 1-1-1 period wasn't a big deal? It took several buffs and map changes to fix those problems up. And then Broodlord Infestor happened.
On topic: TLO giving the most balanced view here. And this Hydra thing is...well its going to be interesting. >_>
*facepalm*. Are you really trying to STILL say the TvP match up has no problems NOW? Stop burying your head in your sand and ignore the issues with the match up. Are all the Terrans suggest fix viable, no. But if you feel nothing needs to be done with the match up (units, maps) , then I don't know what to say. Even most Protoss players in the forums now agree that some changes are needed.
I don't think he is... On the other hand, he says the game may not be as unbalanced as some people say.
should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
THIS is definitely a true statement.
I would agree that it isn't as bad as back then. But in terms of the pro scene, the fact that players are much better now make the imbalances more glaring. Since back then, players frequently made major mistakes that lost them games regardless. Pro players now make less mistakes (or smaller ones) so 'balance' plays a bigger part in the outcome. Code S has 3 Terrans.
I know some Protoss will say some of the top Terrans aren't playing in KR. But the past weekend, the top Terrans that many people listed Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, Taeja were all in action and they were competing mostly with Koreans zergs/pro tosses that are playing in EU. And Ps still won out. So one could argue that even if all the Koreans were still playing in KR, the distribution would be similar.
Am I saying there is only 3 Terrans just of imbalance, no. Some players did underperform, but the margin of error is much lower for Terran right now. You can watch the games and point out mistakes each Terran made, but you can do the same for their Protoss opponents as well. Right now, if both players play at the same 'level', the Protoss will likely win. Of course, the map pool isn't helping.
Now that a few tournaments have been played, I definitely agree that PvT balanced needs to be fixed.
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote: It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.
balance whiners?
How about the sad zealot Fanclub? or did protoss forget about that? why is protoss using winrate now instead of tournament winners (like they did before protoss were winning tournaments, now that tournament finals are PvP, they want to talk about win rate instead of tournament winners? wtF? .
This was just not the same level. First the whine wasn't as toxic as what it was recently. Also the duration of the protoss slump was much much bigger. I did not want to argue about that but man, there is ABSOLUTELY no way protoss are harder than terran when it comes to balance whine. Fortunately here it's still relatively calm, but look at Twitch chat, slumping protoss has never whined that much on Twitch (I know this is an extreme example but it's still a good way to compare).
Really? Twitch chat itself is getting more toxic. Or do you really believe that players that choose Terran somehow has a more whiny personality ? Did you see the whines from protosses on Twitch when Daedulus is played in PvZ? It is just as bad.
Nah, protoss won't say "those zerg skills" "30 APM and win easy" or things like that. They will say something like "this map is so BS" or "Daedalus, protoss is screwed". Something about the map, I rarely see people bashing the other races as hard as protoss are.
About the reason why protoss whine less / are more bashed, I think it's because P usually requires less APM. I also think it has something to do with the fact that P units are usually more expensive, each unit looks more OP. Even if terrans and zergs are aware the protoss units are more expensive so they need to be more powerful, I suppose they will tend to see them OP and annoying more naturally. That + some gimmicky plays from P, the warp in and the FF must be irritating to many players, making them more eager to whine. TBH I don't really know as I almost never play zerg and terran.
And what about complains about marines? Or SCV pulls? MULES? Protoss whine just as much.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Its just strange to see a flying ANTI AIR unit being massed to counter air units but get completely smashed by said air unit.
So you're saying, that Corruptor should counter entire Protoss air? Voidrays are designed to counter Corruptors, and this is intended.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: The thing is about us vocal whining Terrans is that I think most of us are plat/diamond/masters and at this level it's not about Protoss being OP. It's about them being much easier to play.
"Oh I forgot to macro for a whole minute... WARP IN YAY!!!!!!!!!"
"Oh, I wasn't looking at my army for 2 seconds, it's still very much alive cause tons of HP YAY!!!!!!!"
"Oh, i'm battling a Terran. I'll keep a moving forward and being able to macro a bit while the Terran endlessly stutter steps or dies YAY!!!!!"
"Oh, I need to buy time. Force fields and nexus cannon YAY!!!!!!!!"
"Oh, I need to scout. Hallucinate, observers, oracles, blah blah blah"
Terrans macro is harder, the micro is much more demanding, viable army comps are a glass cannon, and Terrans actually have to use creative tactics to buy themselves time. It's not the balance. It's the mechanics of playing toss that are lol worthy. It's like literally every core part of the game is easier to do as Protoss than Terran.
And I was also a much higher ranking Protoss player when I first played SC2, even though I'm much more experienced now and play Terran.
I don't agree about scouting abilty. At the very least terrans have as good scouting abilities as toss. Bunker is decent to buy time too, although I agree on certain map it is not because of blink (and this is part of the recent balance issues).
About stutter step, steam + mediboost sometimes also look annoying as hell from a toss point of view. Not that it's not balanced but just saying it can be a similar feeling. Protoss units have more HP but they are more expensive. If you lose one because you re not looking, you will lose much more. You may need to move them with more care. Overall it requires less APM, but I do think a wrong strat will screw you easily as a toss.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: Terrans macro is harder
That's not true, terran macro is actually easier as they don't need to return to base/pylon in order to create units. To drop mules is also less timeconsuming than chrono 10 gates. Both have to buld buildings same way.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: the micro is much more demanding
On the other hand, positioning is much more important for protoss. Yes, it is not so flashy as stutter step but it is important. At least on highest level. On low level micro doesn't matter anyway.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: viable army comps are a glass cannon
Because protoss is any different - you shift-click vikings on collosi and army evaporates on every level. EMP HTs is harder though, I give you that. But if they are nullified, protoss army is useless.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: Terrans actually have to use creative tactics to buy themselves time.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Its just strange to see a flying ANTI AIR unit being massed to counter air units but get completely smashed by said air unit.
So you're saying, that Corruptor should counter entire Protoss air? Voidrays are designed to counter Corruptors, and this is intended.
So what counters void rays then? Both zerg flying AA units are hard countered by toss flying units Void and phoenix, this leaves zergs with queens, investors and hydras (which suck after the first 10 minutes.)
On February 03 2014 23:45 SC2Toastie wrote: I've read a couple of times now that 'Ghost are really good but Terrans don't use them well'- I honestly don't know what people mean with that. I for sure have pretty horrendous Ghost control, but any non1 number of HT vs non 1 number of Ghost in a perfect micro situation favors the HT (which never occurs btw).
On February 02 2014 22:32 SC2Toastie wrote: By the way, I proposed a change to Overcharge casting recently. Making Overcharge a Channeling spell (and thus cancellable) and giving MSC a small defensive bonus while channeling. That''d fix SO much.
And nobody responds to this. It'd allow for counterplay, dedicating all ins again, and force good positioning with the MSC.
I kinda prefer the solutions proposed by Minigun about the MSC. Being a channeling spell wouldn7t change so much imo, any decent player would be able to keep his MSC safe during the cast.
Reducing it to a 6-7 range Channeled spell that leaves the MSC immobile makes it so that you can go for dedicated pressure and kill the MSC. Positioning the MSC behind the nexus and buildings makes it less vulnerable, but it doesn't completely shut down all pressure.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: Terrans macro is harder
That's not true, terran macro is actually easier as they don't need to return to base/pylon in order to create units. To drop mules is also less timeconsuming than chrono 10 gates. Both have to buld buildings same way.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: the micro is much more demanding
On the other hand, positioning is much more important for protoss. Yes, it is not so flashy as stutter step but it is important. At least on highest level. On low level micro doesn't matter anyway.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: viable army comps are a glass cannon
Because protoss is any different - you shift-click vikings on collosi and army evaporates on every level. EMP HTs is harder though, I give you that. But if they are nullified, protoss army is useless.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Its just strange to see a flying ANTI AIR unit being massed to counter air units but get completely smashed by said air unit.
So you're saying, that Corruptor should counter entire Protoss air? Voidrays are designed to counter Corruptors, and this is intended.
So what counters void rays then? Both zerg flying AA units are hard countered by toss flying units Void and phoenix, this leaves zergs with queens, investors and hydras (which suck after the first 10 minutes.)
Mass queen, with some hydras and infestors mixed in. Queens are the best AA unit in the zerg army.
Honestly, mass void ray only works if you use mass hydra, which is actually the worst possible response. Void rays are still dumb as shit and reward bad players too much, but at the pro level zerg has the tools to deal with them.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Protoss can also open VRs or Oracle into VR/Phoenix. They can also open with gateway expands into blink if they perform reasonable pressure in between. And as you said, various 2base perform well against mutas as well. Like the only openings that are straight up bad against mutas are DTs and Colossi.
And ffs, if Stargate is the best opening and can transition into basically whatever you want, then god damn use it. Zergs also should open roaches against FFEs, and rush melee ups against bio, Terran has to open hellions against Zerg and reaper/reactor against Protoss. The fact that you don't have to build a Stargate under all circumstances is already a strategical luxury that not every race in every matchup has.
Well, opening with like one Viodray or Oracle, into Phoenixes, is still Phoenix opening. You can open with blink, but it has to be 2-base all-in or greedy third into mass Phoenix, if Zerg goes Mutas. 2-base all-ins are good against Mutas, becouse they hit before larger number of Mutas is on the field. I don't like, that only option against Mutas is Phoenix, since HotS blink Stalkers cannot catch up with Mutas, becouse buffed speed, and defensive HTs aren't option either, becouse of insane regen. But I didn't want to talk about Muta problem here, although I think Mutas are too strong in TvZ too. I was trying to say, that Zerg has only 2 options in ZvP, one of them is Mutas, which requires blind countering in every game from Protoss (big design issue IMO), and second leads to very long (this is not neccesarilly bad though) and boring games (which is huge design issue as well).
You don't have to get the phoenixes if you scout a lot with the oracle/hallucinations/obs. The fact that you have a stargate and can throw down the fleet beacon + 1-2 more SGs is enough defensive if you scout properly. Assuming that you don't die to the initial mutas, for which stalkers (especially with blink) are more than enough defense.
Zerg has a lot more options in ZvP. You can go for roach/hydra/viper play up until the lategame, you can go ultralisks (against Gateway expand you can even rush them out with a ling/infestor/upgrade build). Mutalisks aren't even viable against endgame Protoss armies, because Templar/Archon based compositions are more than enough if you have anything else to shoot them (VR or Stalker or Phoenix). But yeah, they are very good at preventing the Protoss to sit on his ass, get 4+ bases and acquire such an army to begin with, since they are really very strong - which is kind of what people wanted at the end of WoL. Powerful Zerg midgame units/compositions that you don't have to completely abbandon for *some deathball* to stay competitive. Maybe they are a little too strong and thus limiting currently, but the alternative is that the opponent "gets safe" at some point, balls up and abuses the massive combatweakness of mutas.
The problem is solely endgame, when Zerg/Protoss ultimate armies don't allow for any play but force the one other ultimate army. And even that isn't so much of a problem imo, it's just too frequent that it happens, which probably just means that those compositions are (a little) too easy to go for.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Its just strange to see a flying ANTI AIR unit being massed to counter air units but get completely smashed by said air unit.
So you're saying, that Corruptor should counter entire Protoss air? Voidrays are designed to counter Corruptors, and this is intended.
So what counters void rays then? Both zerg flying AA units are hard countered by toss flying units Void and phoenix, this leaves zergs with queens, investors and hydras (which suck after the first 10 minutes.)
Mutas Counter Voidrays hard. It goes like this: Phoenix>Muta>Voidray>Corruptor>Phoenix. So we usually end up with Voidray/Phoenix vs. Muta/Corruptor micro battle. Nothing wrong here. I would even give slight edge to Zerg here, becouse Phoenixes aren't that good against Mutas if you can't kite them. And you can't kite with Phoenixes if you have to protect your Voids. On the other hand, with Anion pulse crystals, Phoenixes are quite good even against Corruptors. From ground units, there are hydras (until some AoE is there for Protoss) and especially queens to counter Voids, as you pointed out. But yeah, Hydras suck against Protoss in mid-late game. But it's similar to Mutas, Protoss don't have any ground counter against them except Archons. But Archons counter Mutas just theoreticaly, becouse no Zerg will fight them straight. If Protoss don't have Phoenixes, Mutas will just demolish Probe lines, meanwhile Zerg can expand whenever he wants. Guys, try to view each matchup from both points of view, if you would do that, you would find out, that Zerg problem with Voids is very similar to Protoss problem with Mutas.
I was triyng to say, that while there isn't issue with PvZ balance-wise, there is issue design-wise.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Its just strange to see a flying ANTI AIR unit being massed to counter air units but get completely smashed by said air unit.
So you're saying, that Corruptor should counter entire Protoss air? Voidrays are designed to counter Corruptors, and this is intended.
So what counters void rays then? Both zerg flying AA units are hard countered by toss flying units Void and phoenix, this leaves zergs with queens, investors and hydras (which suck after the first 10 minutes.)
Mass queen, with some hydras and infestors mixed in. Queens are the best AA unit in the zerg army.
Honestly, mass void ray only works if you use mass hydra, which is actually the worst possible response. Void rays are still dumb as shit and reward bad players too much, but at the pro level zerg has the tools to deal with them.
Issue is that queens are clearly the response vs voidrays but queens have no offensive ability without some cheesy nydus play. It forces zerg to just chill and that's super boring... void rays are a badly designed unit - simple as that.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Protoss can also open VRs or Oracle into VR/Phoenix. They can also open with gateway expands into blink if they perform reasonable pressure in between. And as you said, various 2base perform well against mutas as well. Like the only openings that are straight up bad against mutas are DTs and Colossi.
And ffs, if Stargate is the best opening and can transition into basically whatever you want, then god damn use it. Zergs also should open roaches against FFEs, and rush melee ups against bio, Terran has to open hellions against Zerg and reaper/reactor against Protoss. The fact that you don't have to build a Stargate under all circumstances is already a strategical luxury that not every race in every matchup has.
Well, opening with like one Viodray or Oracle, into Phoenixes, is still Phoenix opening. You can open with blink, but it has to be 2-base all-in or greedy third into mass Phoenix, if Zerg goes Mutas. 2-base all-ins are good against Mutas, becouse they hit before larger number of Mutas is on the field. I don't like, that only option against Mutas is Phoenix, since HotS blink Stalkers cannot catch up with Mutas, becouse buffed speed, and defensive HTs aren't option either, becouse of insane regen. But I didn't want to talk about Muta problem here, although I think Mutas are too strong in TvZ too. I was trying to say, that Zerg has only 2 options in ZvP, one of them is Mutas, which requires blind countering in every game from Protoss (big design issue IMO), and second leads to very long (this is not neccesarilly bad though) and boring games (which is huge design issue as well).
You don't have to get the phoenixes if you scout a lot with the oracle/hallucinations/obs. The fact that you have a stargate and can throw down the fleet beacon + 1-2 more SGs is enough defensive if you scout properly. Assuming that you don't die to the initial mutas, for which stalkers (especially with blink) are more than enough defense.
Zerg has a lot more options in ZvP. You can go for roach/hydra/viper play up until the lategame, you can go ultralisks (against Gateway expand you can even rush them out with a ling/infestor/upgrade build). Mutalisks aren't even viable against endgame Protoss armies, because Templar/Archon based compositions are more than enough if you have anything else to shoot them (VR or Stalker or Phoenix). But yeah, they are very good at preventing the Protoss to sit on his ass, get 4+ bases and acquire such an army to begin with, since they are really very strong - which is kind of what people wanted at the end of WoL. Powerful Zerg midgame units/compositions that you don't have to completely abbandon for *some deathball* to stay competitive. Maybe they are a little too strong and thus limiting currently, but the alternative is that the opponent "gets safe" at some point, balls up and abuses the massive combatweakness of mutas.
The problem is solely endgame, when Zerg/Protoss ultimate armies don't allow for any play but force the one other ultimate army. And even that isn't so much of a problem imo, it's just too frequent that it happens, which probably just means that those compositions are (a little) too easy to go for.
Yeah, it's true, that you don't have to go Phoenixes every time, if you open with SG and scout properly. Still, I think, that there should be other counters to Mutas, than just Phoenix.
About late game armies and boring game, I think that TLO suggestion is the best here. Nerf SHs, while nerfing Protoss air. That way IMO, there would be more diversity in late game PvZ.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Its just strange to see a flying ANTI AIR unit being massed to counter air units but get completely smashed by said air unit.
So you're saying, that Corruptor should counter entire Protoss air? Voidrays are designed to counter Corruptors, and this is intended.
So what counters void rays then? Both zerg flying AA units are hard countered by toss flying units Void and phoenix, this leaves zergs with queens, investors and hydras (which suck after the first 10 minutes.)
Mass queen, with some hydras and infestors mixed in. Queens are the best AA unit in the zerg army.
Honestly, mass void ray only works if you use mass hydra, which is actually the worst possible response. Void rays are still dumb as shit and reward bad players too much, but at the pro level zerg has the tools to deal with them.
Issue is that queens are clearly the response vs voidrays but queens have no offensive ability without some cheesy nydus play. It forces zerg to just chill and that's super boring... void rays are a badly designed unit - simple as that.
Zerg should never engage a late game protoss army off creep or away from the mass spores anyway. Even if queens could somehow chase down rays you'd still be far better off chilling at home. Yeah void rays are a terrible unit, but we have plenty of those to go around.
On February 03 2014 17:05 vthree wrote: Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
Actually protoss was and is underpowered. Nothing change since the release of HOTS. Game was stale for almost a year. But all of a sudden protoss became OP. Logics.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Protoss can also open VRs or Oracle into VR/Phoenix. They can also open with gateway expands into blink if they perform reasonable pressure in between. And as you said, various 2base perform well against mutas as well. Like the only openings that are straight up bad against mutas are DTs and Colossi.
And ffs, if Stargate is the best opening and can transition into basically whatever you want, then god damn use it. Zergs also should open roaches against FFEs, and rush melee ups against bio, Terran has to open hellions against Zerg and reaper/reactor against Protoss. The fact that you don't have to build a Stargate under all circumstances is already a strategical luxury that not every race in every matchup has.
Well, opening with like one Viodray or Oracle, into Phoenixes, is still Phoenix opening. You can open with blink, but it has to be 2-base all-in or greedy third into mass Phoenix, if Zerg goes Mutas. 2-base all-ins are good against Mutas, becouse they hit before larger number of Mutas is on the field. I don't like, that only option against Mutas is Phoenix, since HotS blink Stalkers cannot catch up with Mutas, becouse buffed speed, and defensive HTs aren't option either, becouse of insane regen. But I didn't want to talk about Muta problem here, although I think Mutas are too strong in TvZ too. I was trying to say, that Zerg has only 2 options in ZvP, one of them is Mutas, which requires blind countering in every game from Protoss (big design issue IMO), and second leads to very long (this is not neccesarilly bad though) and boring games (which is huge design issue as well).
You don't have to get the phoenixes if you scout a lot with the oracle/hallucinations/obs. The fact that you have a stargate and can throw down the fleet beacon + 1-2 more SGs is enough defensive if you scout properly. Assuming that you don't die to the initial mutas, for which stalkers (especially with blink) are more than enough defense.
Zerg has a lot more options in ZvP. You can go for roach/hydra/viper play up until the lategame, you can go ultralisks (against Gateway expand you can even rush them out with a ling/infestor/upgrade build). Mutalisks aren't even viable against endgame Protoss armies, because Templar/Archon based compositions are more than enough if you have anything else to shoot them (VR or Stalker or Phoenix). But yeah, they are very good at preventing the Protoss to sit on his ass, get 4+ bases and acquire such an army to begin with, since they are really very strong - which is kind of what people wanted at the end of WoL. Powerful Zerg midgame units/compositions that you don't have to completely abbandon for *some deathball* to stay competitive. Maybe they are a little too strong and thus limiting currently, but the alternative is that the opponent "gets safe" at some point, balls up and abuses the massive combatweakness of mutas.
The problem is solely endgame, when Zerg/Protoss ultimate armies don't allow for any play but force the one other ultimate army. And even that isn't so much of a problem imo, it's just too frequent that it happens, which probably just means that those compositions are (a little) too easy to go for.
Yeah, it's true, that you don't have to go Phoenixes every time, if you open with SG and scout properly. Still, I think, that there should be other counters to Mutas, than just Phoenix.
About late game armies and boring game, I think that TLO suggestion is the best here. Nerf SHs, while nerfing Protoss air. That way IMO, there would be more diversity in late game PvZ.
I think both impose problems. SH vs Terran Mech (though I'd be quite willing to see how it plays out) and Protoss Air is imo not in a very nerfable state. Worse VRs, and midgame Protoss SG play may just collapse against Zerg, and it is already underpowered against bio and Protoss. Worse Tempests, probably doable without killing SG play, but I don't see this really changing that Zerg needs Spores/SH/Viper against deathballs.
The root of the problem lies much deeper imo. It's not just one unit that forces Zerg into such gameplay (so not a *perceived* antiair weakness is the problem), Zerg gets into trouble against other deathball variations of Protoss as well, if Protoss just doesn't attack with it too early (against non SH play). And Protoss needs those deathballs to combat mid-lategame compositions and Zergs mobility.
How about allowing for 4 hellbats in one medivac again. After hellbats nerf it shouldnt be as imba as it used to be, and Terrans could eventualy punish P taking fast 3rd Nexus after faked blink allin.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: Terrans macro is harder
That's not true, terran macro is actually easier as they don't need to return to base/pylon in order to create units. To drop mules is also less timeconsuming than chrono 10 gates. Both have to buld buildings same way.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: the micro is much more demanding
On the other hand, positioning is much more important for protoss. Yes, it is not so flashy as stutter step but it is important. At least on highest level. On low level micro doesn't matter anyway.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: viable army comps are a glass cannon
Because protoss is any different - you shift-click vikings on collosi and army evaporates on every level. EMP HTs is harder though, I give you that. But if they are nullified, protoss army is useless.
On February 03 2014 23:50 TronJovolta wrote: Terrans actually have to use creative tactics to buy themselves time.
shift+click medivacs, so creative!!1
I agree with most of these points except the fact that on low level micro doesn't matter. In TvP, micro absolutely matters because you can be equal with protoss as a terran, but have your entire army vaporized with 3 or 4 storms...it's not as unforgiving as protoss fighting against ghosts but getting hit by a few good EMPs can mean certain defeat.
On February 04 2014 01:16 TW wrote: How about allowing for 4 hellbats in one medivac again. After hellbats nerf it shouldnt be as imba as it used to be, and Terrans could eventualy punish P taking fast 3rd Nexus after faked blink allin.
On February 03 2014 23:45 SC2Toastie wrote: I've read a couple of times now that 'Ghost are really good but Terrans don't use them well'- I honestly don't know what people mean with that. I for sure have pretty horrendous Ghost control, but any non1 number of HT vs non 1 number of Ghost in a perfect micro situation favors the HT (which never occurs btw).
On February 02 2014 22:32 SC2Toastie wrote: By the way, I proposed a change to Overcharge casting recently. Making Overcharge a Channeling spell (and thus cancellable) and giving MSC a small defensive bonus while channeling. That''d fix SO much.
And nobody responds to this. It'd allow for counterplay, dedicating all ins again, and force good positioning with the MSC.
I kinda prefer the solutions proposed by Minigun about the MSC. Being a channeling spell wouldn7t change so much imo, any decent player would be able to keep his MSC safe during the cast.
Reducing it to a 6-7 range Channeled spell that leaves the MSC immobile makes it so that you can go for dedicated pressure and kill the MSC. Positioning the MSC behind the nexus and buildings makes it less vulnerable, but it doesn't completely shut down all pressure.
I agree it makes some sense. What are your thoughts on minigun's comments about MSC ?
I don't know if I'm getting this wrong. But feels like most of you are. This isn't proposed patch. This is just a balance test map. Keeping that in mind, I think Blizzard puts in big changes in balance test map, so they can analyze the data. Which direction does it take game. And I'm sure they get more specified data than you would think. After that they make assumptions and implement minor changes, that they are sure won't ruin the game. So I think giving the feedback on the subject is ok. But crying before something is implemented is just retarded!
On February 04 2014 02:46 bilow wrote: I don't know if I'm getting this wrong. But feels like most of you are. This isn't proposed patch. This is just a balance test map. Keeping that in mind, I think Blizzard puts in big changes in balance test map, so they can analyze the data. Which direction does it take game. And I'm sure they get more specified data than you would think. After that they make assumptions and implement minor changes, that they are sure won't ruin the game. So I think giving the feedback on the subject is ok. But crying before something is implemented is just retarded!
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you.
1) proposed balance maps give us some insight into what blizzard is thinking 2) these "big changes" blizzard proposes are not actually big enough - see mothership core, swarmhost late game fix, and if you want to look all the way back to the start of starcraft: warpgate tech 3) blizzard does implement these changes, sometimes regardless of waht the community thinks: queen range, oracle speed
On February 03 2014 09:37 Hryul wrote: thanks for the effort tl. really nice to see some opinions on it.
e:
On February 03 2014 09:35 Pino wrote:
On February 03 2014 08:31 Squat wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote: [quote]
Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O
They could add 50 bastardized, inbred cousins to the oracle and give them all 8.5 move speed. It's not going to make protoss stop deathballing. How anyone thought that giving protoss some random harass units would break up the deathball is beyond me, there is nothing in the addition of the oracle that works to change how protoss plays late game at all.
It does not change that colossi, templars, immortals, tempests, void rays, i.e. every big scary gas unit, needs to be in a big blob to be effective. If you want to break up the deathball, you have to attack its constituent parts, not add new ones that don't fit in it. That will just lead to them being unused, or in the case of the oracle, used in the early/mid game and then discarded precisely because they have no real place in the deathball. Some really ass backwards logic went into this kind of thinking.
This is precisely on spot, like the best comment in this thread. To me the problems is deeper, and the real discussion should not lie in balance but in design. I hope one day blizzard has the balls to redesign protosses.
Like remove FF, redesign WG to keep a defender's advantage, buff gateway units and let them be effective by themselves, with a synergy boost from higher tech units (in this case nerfing them, just like medivacs are for bio), mutas for ling/bane and so on.
All these buffs, like MSC addition, oracle speed etc. looks like bandaids. After so many of them, you gotta see there's something wrong with the design.
After so many times, I wonder when the "design whine" will stop. it's really annoying.
When will it stop? Never. There will always be something to complain about and tack "design" onto.
There's a difference between 'always something' and 'exactly the same few things for last 4 years'
If people complain about something for four years, might be something to it.
Or they might be dead wrong but be unable or unwilling to realise it or accept it.
Unlikely. You can't really be wrong about a subjective experience of fun anyway. Your passive-aggressive defense of every aspect of the game strikes me as somewhat frantic.
Well he is a zealot after all. ;D ;D ;D
But yea tbh you've got to be delusional not to realize the flaws that this game's had since its inception. I mean it's great that Blizzard are still trying to fix things, but still...
Then again looking at this suggested batch of chances it makes you wonder if they have any idea what the problems are, since this would break more than it would fix for sure.
Mate, I'm well aware of the game's flaws. Always have been. But, it would be equally delusional to deny that there is disagreement about some of the flaws, and disagreement about how to fix them (even if the flaws are agreed on), and disagreement that TL posters' agreement speaks for the SC2 community. Don't confuse skepticism with blindness.
In this case, I do not agree that GW units are weak or that WG is seriously flawed. Blizzard have even stated as such (way back in WOL). I do think the economy may be a problem (but I don't know for sure). It would be great if Blizzard looked at it again but, having done so before HOTS (see an AMA with DB) they have chosen to continue with it as it is because changing the economy would be too much work (maybe for unknown reward). That is a valid reason even if I may not like it.
So, I see little point in remaking the same arguments for the nth time.
Given that, when I see these arguments pop up, sometimes I'm going to make fun of them. Because most of them are stupid. (Although, to be fair, they may be new posters who may have independently come to the conclusion: fix WG = fix game!)
As to these changes, they will rarely please everybody. I was against most of these changes but now I am not so sure. With some tweaks they could make the game better (e.g. cheaper Hydra upgrade). And having played with the Tempest in the test map a few times, I like it. It could use some work (tone down damage and make it an upgrade) but it is a cool change.
On February 04 2014 02:46 bilow wrote: I don't know if I'm getting this wrong. But feels like most of you are. This isn't proposed patch. This is just a balance test map. Keeping that in mind, I think Blizzard puts in big changes in balance test map, so they can analyze the data. Which direction does it take game. And I'm sure they get more specified data than you would think. After that they make assumptions and implement minor changes, that they are sure won't ruin the game. So I think giving the feedback on the subject is ok. But crying before something is implemented is just retarded!
The problem is that the games played on the custom maps are completely worthless because: a) you almost never get two evenly skillayed players matched up b) even if you do, it might not be a matchup changed by the patch (say, tvt in this one) c) either way, top players don't bother playing on it; non-pro games do not matter for balance.
Test maps are (i hope) almost exclusively a Pr move because it's impossible to extract meaningful data from them.
Please Blizzard, rethink how the SwarmHost is designed, everybody knows this and everybody wants this so please don't just do this shitty Tempest patch and say it's fixed, because it's not going to change anything in the matchup.
Minigun makes some really excellent ideas, and they are very reasonable for both sides of the matchup. I think seeing what something like that would do to help Terrans while not killing Protoss in PvP or other matchups is something that needs to happen right now to keep the players and the viewers interested in the game in it's current state.
TLO makes some great points as well, so I really hope Blizzard takes a look at this, and thinks up some fresh ideas. Because just the fact that they would throw out ideas like the Tempest buff, or the Hydra decrease in cost, is just really, really baffling, and shows a very large lack of understanding of what's going on in this game at the moment.
Avilo, as much as he complains and whines about things all the time, makes a very good point in his post earlier in this thread about mech. Decreasing the armory cost would be a step in the right direction, and much more so then removing the ghost upgrade, in getting mech to a respectable level of viability. Although I think mech is a very untapped strength of Terran's that we are starting to see the strength of in all matchups, there needs to be something to help them out in the early game that makes it a smart decision to go down that path instead of bio. And with the ghost buff, I think it will just reinforce the idea that bio is just hands down a better composition in TvP, while only slightly helping mech get ghosts with more energy 40 seconds sooner. Armory costs would be a much more realistic and logical step to helping mech in that matcup in my extremely humble opinion.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
You're simplifying the problem and stating an example that is stupid. Roaches get killed by immortals, according to your logic, we should buff them. Also, corruptors die to void ray (and void ray to queens, lol) - you simply do not go mass corruptor vs. a voidray based composition.
On February 04 2014 02:46 bilow wrote: I don't know if I'm getting this wrong. But feels like most of you are. This isn't proposed patch. This is just a balance test map. Keeping that in mind, I think Blizzard puts in big changes in balance test map, so they can analyze the data. Which direction does it take game. And I'm sure they get more specified data than you would think. After that they make assumptions and implement minor changes, that they are sure won't ruin the game. So I think giving the feedback on the subject is ok. But crying before something is implemented is just retarded!
The problem is that the games played on the custom maps are completely worthless because: a) you almost never get two evenly skillayed players matched up b) even if you do, it might not be a matchup changed by the patch (say, tvt in this one) c) either way, top players don't bother playing on it; non-pro games do not matter for balance.
Test maps are (i hope) almost exclusively a Pr move because it's impossible to extract meaningful data from them.
I think you are right, unfortunately. Worse, 2.1 means that total newbies (and I mean total newbies) sometimes play on that map. A couple of games I played were a total waste of time. I made a comment regarding this on the Blizzard forums. That said, I still liked playing with building smashing Tempests, though. It was a lot of fun smashing structures.
A weekend invitational for a small prize with pro players (they don't even have to be top pros) would be better.
On February 04 2014 02:46 bilow wrote: I don't know if I'm getting this wrong. But feels like most of you are. This isn't proposed patch. This is just a balance test map. Keeping that in mind, I think Blizzard puts in big changes in balance test map, so they can analyze the data. Which direction does it take game. And I'm sure they get more specified data than you would think. After that they make assumptions and implement minor changes, that they are sure won't ruin the game. So I think giving the feedback on the subject is ok. But crying before something is implemented is just retarded!
The problem is that the games played on the custom maps are completely worthless because: a) you almost never get two evenly skillayed players matched up b) even if you do, it might not be a matchup changed by the patch (say, tvt in this one) c) either way, top players don't bother playing on it; non-pro games do not matter for balance.
Test maps are (i hope) almost exclusively a Pr move because it's impossible to extract meaningful data from them.
I think you are right, unfortunately. Worse, 2.1 means that total newbies (and I mean total newbies) sometimes play on that map. A couple of games I played were a total waste of time. I made a comment regarding this on the Blizzard forums. That said, I still liked playing with building smashing Tempests, though. It was a lot of fun smashing structures.
A weekend invitational for a small prize with pro players (they don't even have to be top pros) would be better.
How about some special icon for playing ten games on a test map? I played WoW for ages and all that was necessary to motivate me to spend 10 hours doing some trivial task was the promise of a special mount or pet. SC2 is different of course, but maybe it works.
Am I the only one who thinks that the ghost buff will actually encourage 2 base allins even more? I mean, we are talking about a unit that has an ability that is supposed to damage (if not right out counter) the whole protoss race regardless of the units used... I'm not a pro nor an expert, please correct me if I'm wrong but -No Mobius reactor -> 100 vespene more, so there's a free ghost beside the first one in production. -There's still no cloak, but since they'll be 75 energy the terran will have two EMPs right on. -I yet have to see terrans hiding ghosts in speedvacs to then unload them and EMP the deathball (kinda like protoss do with HT in warp prisms), but that could be a possibility, especially since a terran wouldn't be stupid enough to leave the medivacs with full energy to eat HT feedbacks
Given how sc2 works units end to clump up, so 2 EMPs are already troublesome, but we are assuming that a Toss will attack right after only 2 ghosts pop out... but what if a terran manages to get two additional ones and then carpet bomb an area with 4 EMPs - assuming that the first two ones don't have enough energy to cast a second one?
The only way to prevent this would be close the game earlier, hence the fear for even more allins...
I hope someone more skilled than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read any concern about the ghost buff, so I'm wondering if I'm the only one!
The problem is that the games played on the custom maps are completely worthless because: a) you almost never get two evenly skillayed players matched up b) even if you do, it might not be a matchup changed by the patch (say, tvt in this one) c) either way, top players don't bother playing on it; non-pro games do not matter for balance.
Test maps are (i hope) almost exclusively a Pr move because it's impossible to extract meaningful data from them.
@Teoita I think that is a really smart statement about the usefulness of test maps though I'm sure a few of the pros would try out the map in their spare time. If HuK and Idra have time to play mini-games on their streams they most likely have time to try out a test map or two. This wouldn't be serious testing which is the main point to be taken from proposed changes and test maps such as this.
Always interesting to hear the perspectives of the pros.
On February 04 2014 09:11 Dingobloo wrote: They went back on the hydra change, I hope everyone is happy, we're left with only the most pointless and conservative changes.
God only knows when we'll see a proper shake up of late game PvZ at this rate.
Yeah, really bad move by Blizzard. As a zerg, going to MLG and kicking the shit out of Parting, Rain and Sos would've been amazing, but thanks to Blizzard I'm going to have to get out of gold league before trying to go pro. Great job guys. No really.
man...that hydra buff would make doing roach hydra vs mech even more viable. More gas for vipers in the late game as well as making them become more disposable. They're trying to buff mech but nerf it at the same time (in that regard to tvz). I see things moving 1 step forward...then 1 step back somewhere else.
On February 04 2014 10:05 MavivaM wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that the ghost buff will actually encourage 2 base allins even more? I mean, we are talking about a unit that has an ability that is supposed to damage (if not right out counter) the whole protoss race regardless of the units used... I'm not a pro nor an expert, please correct me if I'm wrong but -No Mobius reactor -> 100 vespene more, so there's a free ghost beside the first one in production. -There's still no cloak, but since they'll be 75 energy the terran will have two EMPs right on. -I yet have to see terrans hiding ghosts in speedvacs to then unload them and EMP the deathball (kinda like protoss do with HT in warp prisms), but that could be a possibility, especially since a terran wouldn't be stupid enough to leave the medivacs with full energy to eat HT feedbacks
Given how sc2 works units end to clump up, so 2 EMPs are already troublesome, but we are assuming that a Toss will attack right after only 2 ghosts pop out... but what if a terran manages to get two additional ones and then carpet bomb an area with 4 EMPs - assuming that the first two ones don't have enough energy to cast a second one?
The only way to prevent this would be close the game earlier, hence the fear for even more allins...
I hope someone more skilled than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read any concern about the ghost buff, so I'm wondering if I'm the only one!
The all in is indeed earlier - mere seconds earlier. The three ghosts you make when you go for the ghost+scv All In generate 25 mana on the way to your base and thus, are EMP ready when they get there anyways. Maybe this makes the timing a couple of seconds earlier, but nothing major. You don't get a free extra ghost either, because in the build you produce three (the number of tech-labbed Barracks you have). The defensive timing is a lot faster, by about 40 seconds, which is good for mech and bio alike, but Bio doesn't really face offensive attacks you need Ghosts for that couldn't be replaced by sim city and bunkers - Mech, however, greatly benefits from EMP on Archons and Immortals.
Also, don't overestimate EMP. It's the combination of mass EMP, Vikings and Cloak that deals with the Deathball, just EMP means you get collosus'd. You seem to fear a late-game occurrence as a result of this buff, but that situation only happens because of mass ghost viking.
Minigun and TLO made some very insightful comments. Minigun's suggestions for the Mothership Core were some of the most well thought out I've come across.
Avilo's suggestions for Armory balance changes was also very poignant. I think some thing that goes unaddressed is how Terran is unable to utilize gas in the late game. Dumping all that gas into Ravens is not an effective use of gas. Going Battlecruisers also doesn't do anything. It's a whacky suggestion, but I think nuke call-down time should be reduced a bit. Clide once showed how nukes could be used as a zoning tactic, and in general, nukes are severely underused.
The ghost balance changes doesn't really do much for Terran. Some of the Terran pro-gamers have already noted that Ghosts will pick up the EMP energy as they walk across the map. Giving Ghosts EMP energy out of the Barracks just creates this funky timing for a bio push.
On February 04 2014 10:05 MavivaM wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that the ghost buff will actually encourage 2 base allins even more? I mean, we are talking about a unit that has an ability that is supposed to damage (if not right out counter) the whole protoss race regardless of the units used... I'm not a pro nor an expert, please correct me if I'm wrong but -No Mobius reactor -> 100 vespene more, so there's a free ghost beside the first one in production. -There's still no cloak, but since they'll be 75 energy the terran will have two EMPs right on. -I yet have to see terrans hiding ghosts in speedvacs to then unload them and EMP the deathball (kinda like protoss do with HT in warp prisms), but that could be a possibility, especially since a terran wouldn't be stupid enough to leave the medivacs with full energy to eat HT feedbacks
Given how sc2 works units end to clump up, so 2 EMPs are already troublesome, but we are assuming that a Toss will attack right after only 2 ghosts pop out... but what if a terran manages to get two additional ones and then carpet bomb an area with 4 EMPs - assuming that the first two ones don't have enough energy to cast a second one?
The only way to prevent this would be close the game earlier, hence the fear for even more allins...
I hope someone more skilled than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read any concern about the ghost buff, so I'm wondering if I'm the only one!
I do not see it bad to give Terrans option to go 2-base allinning.
Somebody said a change to hydra upgrades would be better (they wanted to decrease cost to 100/100) and I really agree, except I think it's not the upgrade cost that makes hydras tough to field, it's the build duration. Back in broodwar it made sense to have the long duration when hydras were fully T1—it created situations where you were choosing between speed (choose your engagement/kite/harass) or range (straight up fight) and it made hydra rushes more nuanced.
Now, since hydras are lair, they're coming out so late anyway that you are super-committed to doing damage with the first wave, which makes the range upgrade the strongly favored choice. And since it's so late, there's almost zero chance you're gonna be fighting a melee army that you can kite the way you might have been in BW, further undermining the value of speed in actual combat situations. Where you used to have this valid dichotomy, now you have a high-odds choice and a low-odds choice. Reducing the build time doesn't really fix the underlying problem, but at least it means that you'll be getting the speed upgrade part way through the fight instead of after you've either won or all your hydras are already dead.
@Ana_ Probably I spelled my point wrong, because my fear isn't for the Toss, but rather for the Terran. What I mean is that since the ghost is a pain in the ass to deal with (as it's rightfully supposed with a tier 3 caster unit), protoss players will furtherly be incouraged to close the game before that point. I don't think that this buff will actually give Terrans some huge chances for allins (or better, not systematically), but rather urge the Toss to punch them in the face beforehand! @Sc2Toastie, thanks for your examples, not being a terran I find them very interesting! I never really saw ghosts in mech compositions, now I'm curious...
On February 04 2014 23:23 MavivaM wrote: @Sc2Toastie, thanks for your examples, not being a terran I find them very interesting! I never really saw ghosts in mech compositions, now I'm curious...
Check out Strelok, HTOMario or Avilo streams, they often mech vs Protoss.
On February 05 2014 04:54 Stolker wrote: Who needs roaches if you can make hydras for almost the same cost? I am loving this patch
They only changed the cost of hydra, you will still need to make the same count of roaches to go with Hydras to be a buffer, not like Hydras can tank dmg.
On February 05 2014 04:54 Stolker wrote: Who needs roaches if you can make hydras for almost the same cost? I am loving this patch
They only changed the cost of hydra, you will still need to make the same count of roaches to go with Hydras to be a buffer, not like Hydras can tank dmg.
remember how sick stephano's 200/200 roach timing was? Imagine the same thing with pure hydras... you dont need any tanks with that kind of dps
On February 05 2014 04:54 Stolker wrote: Who needs roaches if you can make hydras for almost the same cost? I am loving this patch
They only changed the cost of hydra, you will still need to make the same count of roaches to go with Hydras to be a buffer, not like Hydras can tank dmg.
remember how sick stephano's 200/200 roach timing was? Imagine the same thing with pure hydras... you dont need any tanks with that kind of dps
You probably still would beyond the initial timing push (assuming they lived).
I am surprised at the hydra change. Wasn't there some 2 or 3 base hydra timing ZvP for a while and it was already fairly strong?
this patch reminds me of why I stopped playing, I just had to face the fact that their balance team is too god awful to bother dumping my time into such a poorly run game across the board, from the player interface(feels like you are actually playing in space with how little interaction there is) to the balance to their e-sports development.
This season's Code A Stats have been interesting for TvP (21% winrate). Waiting to see how Code S turns out, with 3/32 Terrans that qualified.
The ghost & mothership core look like they're pretty much directed towards TvP, but they don't change anything... I guess it's probably beaten to death in this thread on why a ghost change or 60 seconds to 50 seconds nexus cannon doesn't do anything. As for time warp, the first time warp is usually a decider anyways.
There's also the problem of not being able to scout a toss player properly. Even if you know they're proxying something with 2 gas or missing pylons in their base, you dunno if it's a twilight or stargate tech. Those techs have totally different counters, and whether you scout it or not (IN TIME) is pure luck, you can't cover the entire map of scouting before the 6 min mark...
On February 05 2014 11:56 Jarree wrote: They could actually buff bunker. 5s build time decrease should help with the P all-ins.
would buff proxy 2 rax tho...
That might be problematic for TvZ balance, but I don't see it hurting TvT as much, since both players have access to bunkers, and bunker rushing vs TvP might be more viable.
They could even try something like increasing build time *and* hp, it could make holding P all-ins easier, and make proxy rax allins more allin, since they take longer to build, but are stronger when done. Dunno.
On February 05 2014 04:54 Stolker wrote: Who needs roaches if you can make hydras for almost the same cost? I am loving this patch
They only changed the cost of hydra, you will still need to make the same count of roaches to go with Hydras to be a buffer, not like Hydras can tank dmg.
remember how sick stephano's 200/200 roach timing was? Imagine the same thing with pure hydras... you dont need any tanks with that kind of dps
70 pure hydra is only barely better than 70 pure roach. You wouldnt go hydra max instead of roach max with 100/25 hydras, since the tech is more costly (450/400 vs 300/100), it's not safe to skip the roach warren before lair against FFE (the only build against which roach max was viable in WoL) and the timings probably wouldn't work out (can start producing roaches before lair done, but for hydras you need to wait on the lair and the den to finish). Not to mention that the hydras still cost 25% more than roaches, but aren't 25% more efficient, so you'd rather have 5roaches instead of 4hydras. You'd probably do a very broken 13-14min roach/hydra push (much more costefficient than pure hydra) with 100/25/2 hydras or an earlier ling/hydra attack to deny the third while teching to Mutas or SHs or Roach/Viper/Corruptor.
On February 04 2014 23:23 MavivaM wrote: @Sc2Toastie, thanks for your examples, not being a terran I find them very interesting! I never really saw ghosts in mech compositions, now I'm curious...
Check out Strelok, HTOMario or Avilo streams, they often mech vs Protoss.
On February 04 2014 23:23 MavivaM wrote: @Sc2Toastie, thanks for your examples, not being a terran I find them very interesting! I never really saw ghosts in mech compositions, now I'm curious...
Check out Strelok, HTOMario or Avilo streams, they often mech vs Protoss.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/race/SC2P10.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/race/SC2T10.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/race/SC2Z10.png)
Vision change to stop blink all-ins would be fine.
