EPTOn the actual patch i don´t understand why they aren´t even trying on the MSC vision range. Its a friking flying nexus. For what is it? Early game scouting? I thought the non-research halluzination (urgs!) was for that purpose.
SC2 Balance Changes: Pros' Impressions - Page 13
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
On the actual patch i don´t understand why they aren´t even trying on the MSC vision range. Its a friking flying nexus. For what is it? Early game scouting? I thought the non-research halluzination (urgs!) was for that purpose. | ||
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Olenji
United States7 Posts
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SpunXtain20
Australia554 Posts
I wasn't aware anyone thought hydras were still weak since the speed buff in Hots, I see them used frequently. I think they're maybe trying to do it as a counter to terran mech compositions, but it's the wrong unit to be buffing for that matchup. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 03 2014 06:47 starslayer wrote: first maybe dont do 1 gate expo vs a one base all in you can scout what protoss is doing and you can make more gates rather then make a nexus lol also theres a thing called chrono that would get that immortal out in time You literally can't scout in PvP during various timings, you have to commit to a build before you know what your opponent is doing. That's why it's a coin flip. There is literally no such thing as any safe form of expansion build in PvP, and one base vs. one base is just an awful matchup. Guess what, if he makes gates to attack, and I make gates to defend, nobody expands, and the matchup is just retarded. The soonest I can scout after the first stalker pops in PvP is when either my msc flies over to his base (horrifically unsafe decision), my first sentry hits 100 energy for a hallucination (unsafe decision because you might just see an attack coming in time to not have force fields to defend it), or my observer/stargate unit gets over there. During the length of time it takes for one of these three things to happen, both players have committed to some kind of build choice blindly. You might as well play rock papers scissors. Being able to safely take a fast expand fixes that problem because it means that the blind tech choices don't kill you before you can respond, making the matchup actually playable. And we do use chrono, it still isn't out in time. He's doing a 3 gate attack vs. my nexus: I need to hold my nexus. The three gate attack starts while my robo is building, I use photon overcharge to buy time, I chrono the immortal, it makes it out barely in time with my other units and I might hold if my micro is good from this point. If the overcharge ends sooner, he moves in and gets a good position or even force fields my ramp before the immortal can get there. This isn't the only situation, there are many. PvP is a shit matchup, and the PO is the only thing keeping it from going back to WoL 1 base vs. 1 base every game. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12501 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 03 2014 07:10 Nebuchad wrote: It's so epic that you have to justify how PvP is affected when everyone seems to agree that the nerf should be vision & casting range instead of length in the first place. I'm not even sure casting range is needed, but yes, I completely agree that vision range nerf is justified. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On February 03 2014 07:03 Whitewing wrote: You literally can't scout in PvP during various timings, you have to commit to a build before you know what your opponent is doing. That's why it's a coin flip. There is literally no such thing as any safe form of expansion build in PvP, and one base vs. one base is just an awful matchup. Guess what, if he makes gates to attack, and I make gates to defend, nobody expands, and the matchup is just retarded. And we do use chrono, it still isn't out in time. He's doing a 3 gate attack vs. my nexus: I need to hold my nexus. The three gate attack starts while my robo is building, I use photon overcharge to buy time, I chrono the immortal, it makes it out barely in time with my other units and I might hold if my micro is good from this point. If the overcharge ends sooner, he moves in and gets a good position or even force fields my ramp before the immortal can get there. This isn't the only situation, there are many. PvP is a shit matchup, and the PO is the only thing keeping it from going back to WoL 1 base vs. 1 base every game. This is also not true on most maps. You just have to be willing to stop being so greedy. I probe scout. I zealot scout. I probe scout again. Rarely do I get surprised, and I have time to adjust accordingly, unless it's a proxy 2 gate stalker that can be made anywhere. I must be magical, or I simply try to scout.. I can't disagree with fearing 1 base vs 1 base p vs p, again. It would be nice if the duration could remain the same in p vs p, while it could be tweaked if need be in other mu's. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
Anyway, I think that when Blizzard patches the game they should strive to improve it, not to constantly finetune balance with overly targeted changes. But in hots they have really stopped caring and now they're addressing all balance issues by removing upgrades, adding specific damage bonuses and rules(hellbat), and increasing movement speeds of units. I hope that they'll at least fix all inconsistencies in lotv. Good balance is important, of course, but can often be achieved with new maps or with changes that also improve the design. At least fixing the MsC vision and so on will make the unit feel more consistent in addition to being a balance change. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 03 2014 07:14 playa wrote: This is also not true on most maps. You just have to be willing to stop being so greedy. I probe scout. I zealot scout. I probe scout again. Rarely do I get surprised, and I have time to adjust accordingly, unless it's a proxy 2 gate stalker that can be made anywhere. I must be magical, or I simply try to scout.. I can't disagree with fearing 1 base vs 1 base p vs p, again. It would be nice if the duration could remain the same in p vs p, while it could be tweaked if need be in other mu's. I can't remember the last time I let my opponent into my base after I chased the first probe out to scout what I was doing, or the last time I got a unit into their base to scout before hallucination was ready. The stalker and MSC easily denies a follow up probe or zealot scout, and whenever I see a zealot scout, I usually cheer because it's a free zealot kill. | ||
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jackslater
Russian Federation604 Posts
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Balosaar
United States35 Posts
Then you want to talk about the muta switch and other strategy. There would be 3 scenarios: 1: The zerg player makes these cheaper hydras, and makes a lot extra. Compared to the current game, if you attempted a muta switch your mineral count would be lower by comparison, but you would have a bigger army of hydralisks. As devils advocate, I would ask, how could a protoss hold this, or better yet, if zerg were given more options (this being an option), how does such a boost to hydralisk allow zerg to counter protoss? There would be stronger hydralisk pushs against faster 3rds and vs stargate play. I would expect that protoss could hold hydralisks timings, but it would be much much harder to hold while opening stargate, but is this really a bad thing? 2: The zerg player makes the same amount of hydralisks he would have made pre buff off of the same amount of geysers, keeping an extra 25 gas, or an extra muta's worth of gas for ever 4 hydralisks made. I would assume a good protoss would be scouting with hallucinations and would be able to see a spire or a hydralisks den [ lol alterzim ]. A good protoss would be able to read into the amount of hydralisks being made and question where the gas is going. 3:The zerg player makes the same amount of hydralisks he would have made pre buff off of less geysers, having in total less gas income and more mineral income. I would imagine this sort of thing as a safer or a more greedier opening depending on when you get your gas, being that upgrades and lair tech might be slower, and later tech would be slower, infavor of more bases and more mineral income. [ could be wrong on this one ] | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On February 03 2014 07:14 Grumbels wrote: Anyway, I think that when Blizzard patches the game they should strive to improve it, not to constantly finetune balance with overly targeted changes. But in hots they have really stopped caring and now they're addressing all balance issues by removing upgrades, adding specific damage bonuses and rules(hellbat), and increasing movement speeds of units. I hope that they'll at least fix all inconsistencies in lotv. Good balance is important, of course, but can often be achieved with new maps or with changes that also improve the design. At least fixing the MsC vision and so on will make the unit feel more consistent in addition to being a balance change. Pretty much. I just hope, "we" as a community don't get what we whine for. Whatever goes through, I hope it opens and improves the game (for all races) rather than restrict it and make it ugly. | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
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wptlzkwjd
Canada1240 Posts
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Rahb18
United States17 Posts
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On February 03 2014 08:02 Rahb18 wrote: Because all the pros are renown game designers. Because only renowned game designers are allowed to have opinions on games. | ||
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