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On February 03 2014 05:44 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 05:33 starslayer wrote:
i still dont understand protoss saying that the photon overcharge nerf will fuck pvp up its 10s not that much at all if you lose because of that its not because of a 10s nerf its cause you did something wrong its 10s. That's because you don't understand PvP. If my opponent is doing a 1 base all-in vs. my expand build, I need as much time as I can possibly get to get some essential tech out to defend. I will never have more units then they will, since I will not have the time to make workers to get a higher income, so I need to hold the nexus with fewer units. That means it basically has to be some form of tech unit, like an immortal. 10 seconds is a huge difference in whether I can get it out in time or not. PvP very frequently is won or lost in less time than 10 seconds.
Ofcourse 10 seconds are critical in PvP to hold a 1 base play , dont hold yourself from nerfing overcharge to the ground because of it please.(10 seconds arent enough to make me happy though)
If overcharge is really needed in PvP make it stronger against protoss plasma shield or something..overcharge is the best defense in the game cost wise and you dont even need to prepare for it - you'll get the msc anyway.you dont need to be skilled or smart to use it either.
Not to mention protoss has the best defensive effects even without it.(timewarp/storm/forcefield/warpin)
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Jesus, even as a zerg player I know that hydra patch is way OP.
Plus, it would ruin mutas in zvz too!
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On February 03 2014 04:13 fighter2_40 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 04:00 desRow wrote:On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote:
It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful. Hi Des, I guess I am being a bit harsh in my wording. The "bias" that I was seeing here is how accepting you were to the overcharge nerf. It's a very minor and although I can't comment on PvP, I'm gona have to agree with the majority of responses here in saying that it will do nothing for TvP. When we accept a change, we are inadvertently rejecting other changes such as the proposed vision nerf on the mscore, which would be a bigger nerf to protoss. Perhaps you didn't mean it like that but I think it's time for the community to realize that by accepting a balance change, we are foregoing alternative changes that may help the game design a bit more.
So what you're basically saying is that Desrow, one of the very best players in the entire western hemisphere (just to give a bit of perspective, I know that most of the talent is in EU and KR), is wrong. That your opinion on what the appropriate balance change is is more accurate than his opinion.
I'm sorry, but you really shouldn't directly challenge a player who is that much more knowledgeable than you. I mean, you can have a different opinion. Most other top players prefer a sight nerf on the MSC over what blizzard is doing, after all. The problem here is that you don't know why they think that, or why Desrow thinks that Blizzard's proposed changes are sufficient.
Desrow is very active on these forums; he probably knew for a while now that most people prefer the sight range nerf, which means he most likely knows his opinion is unusual, which means he is going to put in a fair bit of effort to refine his belief and make sure it is correct. The thing is, he has thousands of hours of experience in SC2 from which to make decisions. He has hundreds, maybe even thousands, of timings, build orders, hard counters, tactical adjustments and the like percolating in his head. All of these things come into alignment in his brain when he makes decisions about the game.
As you can imagine, this means his opinion holds a lot of weight and that he has darn good reasons to believe what he does. Same deal for everyone else at his level of play. When you're going up against someone THAT knowledgeable, with THAT much authority on their side, you need to explain why his opinion is wrong in order for your opinion to be valid at all, and that is something I very much doubt you are able to do.
On February 03 2014 05:52 soon.Cloak wrote:
For the life of me, I don't understand why Blizzard doesn't ask the pros before they send out a test patch, and listening to what the pros think should be patched, instead of hearing their reactions to it afterwards. Like, do they really think they have a better idea of what will help balance, more than the people that are actually playing the game all day, every day...?
Sheesh, those hydras...
Like, I'm curious- does Blizzard hope to, one day, not need to make any more patches, and leave the game as is, or do they want to do semi-often patches to change up the game (ala Dota)? It sounds like the former, but they're going about doing it completely backwards.
iirc, David Kim was on record a while ago saying that pros don't understand balance at all. Or something similar.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 03 2014 05:55 Complain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 05:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 03 2014 05:33 starslayer wrote:
i still dont understand protoss saying that the photon overcharge nerf will fuck pvp up its 10s not that much at all if you lose because of that its not because of a 10s nerf its cause you did something wrong its 10s. That's because you don't understand PvP. If my opponent is doing a 1 base all-in vs. my expand build, I need as much time as I can possibly get to get some essential tech out to defend. I will never have more units then they will, since I will not have the time to make workers to get a higher income, so I need to hold the nexus with fewer units. That means it basically has to be some form of tech unit, like an immortal. 10 seconds is a huge difference in whether I can get it out in time or not. PvP very frequently is won or lost in less time than 10 seconds. Ofcourse 10 seconds are critical in PvP to hold a 1 base play , dont hold yourself from nerfing overcharge to the ground because of it please.(10 seconds arent enough to make me happy though) If overcharge is really needed in PvP make it stronger against protoss plasma shield or something..overcharge is the best defense in the game cost wise and you dont even need to prepare for it - you'll get the msc anyway.you dont need to be skilled or smart to use it either. Not to mention protoss has the best defensive effects even without it.(timewarp/storm/forcefield/warpin)
It's not the damage of photon overcharge that matters in PvP at all, it's the length of time. It can do 100 damage a shot and wouldn't be good enough in PvP to defend an expand if it doesn't last a full minute. The problem is that the enemy just moves out of range, continues to warp in units, and then when the duration expires, walks in with his superior unit count and kills you for expanding. You have to buy time to get out some kind of tech counter.
PvP is currently already in atrocious shape as a matchup.
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On February 02 2014 23:02 Scoobers wrote:I think it's funny how Korean Protoss pros seem scared shitless by any terran buff while Minigun has the ballz to talk about what should be nerfed for PvT and with his suggestion for what should be nerfed he is totally right imo. I think they shouldn't change overcharge duration due to PvP but if P can feel so safe early game vs Terran (not sure about zerg but hey probably also) I think Terran shouldn't be wondering first 7-8 minutes what the hell is the protoss gonna fuck him with because Protoss has SO many viable openings that cannot be defended with the press of a button - Oracles, DTs, blink, gateway all ins, void ray all ins and their all apart from gate way all ins done with 2 gas and HOW the hell are you supposed to know without scouting entire map what is going on? Again, I would be fine with that if Terran also had quite a few viable openings vs Protoss but they dont so I think protoss ones shouldnt be as deadly as they currently are. My suggestiongs: -nerf MSC vision to 10 and nexus overcharge casting range to 6-7 (won't affect PvP that much) -Don't remove the ghost ubgrade, give tanks EMP shells or what Goody suggested that tanks should fire with less damage but more often and redesign the warhound properly for Lotv god damnit. The only point in which I think that Ghosts should get the buff you suggested is because of those ridiculous storm zealot archon all ins we see a lot nowadays with 2 armor, ridiculously good, 5 bunkers ih having trouble stopping that shit lol. -Turrets without ebay or 75 mins per turret -oracle speed should get buffed Kappa - nerf time warp as you wanted That would be a start to see how it plays out, obviously P being so good defensively while macroing in your main with a warp prism is funny too just like the micro potential of that race but lets leave it. -Avilo suggested a really good change just couple posts above mine, take a look at that and listen, at least for once to what that man is saying even though you probably shitlisted him long time ago already. Tempest buff wont change much in PvZ and will make it another all in to scout for in TvP (as day9 said protoss has over 400 all ins to choose from already), to change PvZ you have to make it possible to engage the protoss death ball somehow because their army just like terrans and very often just melts away to lazors and storms so theyre forced to go swarm hosts. I honestly think hydra buff doesnt need any discussion, everyone will switch to zerg if it goes through haha  P.S. Grubby, during Asus ROG you could have ballz to not deny the fact that Protoss is raping terran man, shame on you dude really. Im afraid that is to be expected from you because youre the one that played orc in WC3 afterall, so did I but I had the ballz that admit it was too strong.
I lol'd at that P.S........ Grubby was imba in wc3 before Orc was considered imba. The players who were dominant when Orc was imba were Lyn, viOLet and Fly100%. Even then, Remind was winning almost every single tournament world wide, and he was Night Elf.
Humans still made it to a pretty good amount of finals as well, it was only undead that was underpowered. They were decent against NE and HU but UP against Orc, this their downfall. TeD still made it to a few semi finals though.
Protoss is the best race right now, but it's not as huge of a deal as you're trying to make it out to be. The problems will get fixed, even if blizzard makes a few mistakes along the way. It's not like wc3, where things only got imba because blizzard completely threw the game under the bus.
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I dislike timewarp, swarm host and planetary nexus. Opening protoss builds were made far, far to easy in Hots I think.
Lategame toss was strong enough in WoL. With storm and colossus, timewarps on a bio army is just straight up unfair. Tempest monsterkilling buildings in addition to this would just be ridiculous.
Obviously protoss early game was a lot more fragile in WoL, but it was one of the few things allowing terrans to get an edge. Kinda like TvP always feels a bit risky in BW until you get tanks and stuff.
/previously plat toss, gold terran and BW noob
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Dem hydras getting so much hate T_T
To be fair though, that is an insane buff and will make Z stupid op again. Kinda like when they drastically changed the queens a few years ago =P?
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On February 03 2014 06:14 Shinta) wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 23:02 Scoobers wrote:I think it's funny how Korean Protoss pros seem scared shitless by any terran buff while Minigun has the ballz to talk about what should be nerfed for PvT and with his suggestion for what should be nerfed he is totally right imo. I think they shouldn't change overcharge duration due to PvP but if P can feel so safe early game vs Terran (not sure about zerg but hey probably also) I think Terran shouldn't be wondering first 7-8 minutes what the hell is the protoss gonna fuck him with because Protoss has SO many viable openings that cannot be defended with the press of a button - Oracles, DTs, blink, gateway all ins, void ray all ins and their all apart from gate way all ins done with 2 gas and HOW the hell are you supposed to know without scouting entire map what is going on? Again, I would be fine with that if Terran also had quite a few viable openings vs Protoss but they dont so I think protoss ones shouldnt be as deadly as they currently are. My suggestiongs: -nerf MSC vision to 10 and nexus overcharge casting range to 6-7 (won't affect PvP that much) -Don't remove the ghost ubgrade, give tanks EMP shells or what Goody suggested that tanks should fire with less damage but more often and redesign the warhound properly for Lotv god damnit. The only point in which I think that Ghosts should get the buff you suggested is because of those ridiculous storm zealot archon all ins we see a lot nowadays with 2 armor, ridiculously good, 5 bunkers ih having trouble stopping that shit lol. -Turrets without ebay or 75 mins per turret -oracle speed should get buffed Kappa - nerf time warp as you wanted That would be a start to see how it plays out, obviously P being so good defensively while macroing in your main with a warp prism is funny too just like the micro potential of that race but lets leave it. -Avilo suggested a really good change just couple posts above mine, take a look at that and listen, at least for once to what that man is saying even though you probably shitlisted him long time ago already. Tempest buff wont change much in PvZ and will make it another all in to scout for in TvP (as day9 said protoss has over 400 all ins to choose from already), to change PvZ you have to make it possible to engage the protoss death ball somehow because their army just like terrans and very often just melts away to lazors and storms so theyre forced to go swarm hosts. I honestly think hydra buff doesnt need any discussion, everyone will switch to zerg if it goes through haha P.S. Grubby, during Asus ROG you could have ballz to not deny the fact that Protoss is raping terran man, shame on you dude really. Im afraid that is to be expected from you because youre the one that played orc in WC3 afterall, so did I but I had the ballz that admit it was too strong. I lol'd at that P.S........ Grubby was imba in wc3 before Orc was considered imba. The players who were dominant when Orc was imba were Lyn, viOLet and Fly100%. Even then, Remind was winning almost every single tournament world wide, and he was Night Elf. Humans still made it to a pretty good amount of finals as well, it was only undead that was underpowered. They were decent against NE and HU but UP against Orc, this their downfall. TeD still made it to a few semi finals though. Protoss is the best race right now, but it's not as huge of a deal as you're trying to make it out to be. The problems will get fixed, even if blizzard makes a few mistakes along the way. It's not like wc3, where things only got imba because blizzard completely threw the game under the bus.
That depends how you define huge. It is obviously enough for protoss to make almost 50% of Code S.. same thing goes for Proleague and GM league as well. On top of that recent tournament results show protoss to be most successful race with two consecutive PvP finals + super high placement rate in Code S qualifiers.
This all might not be much when viewed separately but when you look at it as a whole it is obvious protoss has an edge at high level of play.
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Rather than decreasing the Hydralisk cost so there would be even more crazy muta transitions they should focus on actually giving hydralisks more self-defense 'cause they're useless without any meat-shield units in front...
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On February 03 2014 02:12 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 01:57 Faust852 wrote:On February 03 2014 01:49 desRow wrote:On February 03 2014 01:43 TronJovolta wrote:On February 03 2014 00:46 desRow wrote:On February 02 2014 23:36 ImperialFist wrote:On February 02 2014 23:22 KTP_TV wrote:
It's nice to know what a few pro's opinion.
I like the difference between desRow and minigun point of view,
desRow : * crying, don't nerf my race, crying, crying *
minigun : * proposes one of the best way to change PvT *
Desrow despises Terran so that is to be expected. I don't despise terran. I agree that the mothershipcore vision range is too good but the terran whiners like Avilo who are a mile away from being a tournament player should sit down and play instead of spreading bullshit as much as they can. And how much tournament winnings have you accumulated? LOL. http://aligulac.com/players/987-avilo/http://aligulac.com/players/542-desRow/he's earned 50$ while I've earned 692$ + a missing 2140$ from this list (WCS Premier + a tournament in Quebec city last week end for 140$) http://www.sc2earnings.com/search?search=desrowI can say you are not relevant either and you should just sit and play. You know, you're just an average streamer, same as avilo, you don't have more credit than him.. Please do not bash players in this thread. DesRow is a hard worker who has put in the time and effort to reach WCS america premier league. He and everyone else who provided feedback did so by their own volition. They were nice enough to help us so that you the community can get an idea on their thoughts which are based in a generally very high understanding of the game based on thousands and thousands of games of experience. All the players here were not only nice but they also had the guts to do this. Considering how the community normally reacts to balance and patches for balance many people were afraid to go on the record because of the community's potential reaction. Thankfully the majority of this thread seems fairly reasonable. Remember that it is a privilege to get these thoughts not a right. Borrowing from DotA and HS forums we are trying to break down a wall so that we can do more of this in the future. Personal attacks against those involved only makes this kind of post less likely in the future.
Not bashing myself, but I'd like to point out that you shouldn't let Desrow bash Avilo either. It's great to get feedback from pretty much anyone who plays a lot, having Desrow in the OP shouldn't make him immune in the rest of the thread.
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I got a warning for saying Desrow is at best as valuable as Avilo, but Desrow saying Avilo is trash is totally ok...
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On February 03 2014 06:42 Faust852 wrote:
I got a warning for saying Desrow is at best as valuable as Avilo, but Desrow saying Avilo is trash is totally ok...
He didn't say anything that isn't true about Avilo. When Avilo didn't qualify for WCS, he instantly blamed stream cheating and a bunch of other nonsense. He is a well known balance whiner, like Idra in his day. And if Idra proved anything, its that complaining about balance doesn't win tournaments or get you qualified for anything.
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your Country52797 Posts
On February 03 2014 06:42 Faust852 wrote:
I got a warning for saying Desrow is at best as valuable as Avilo, but Desrow saying Avilo is trash is totally ok...
Desrow did not say avilo was trash, he said he was far away from being a main player in tournaments, which is true.
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On February 03 2014 05:44 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 05:33 starslayer wrote:
i still dont understand protoss saying that the photon overcharge nerf will fuck pvp up its 10s not that much at all if you lose because of that its not because of a 10s nerf its cause you did something wrong its 10s. That's because you don't understand PvP. If my opponent is doing a 1 base all-in vs. my expand build, I need as much time as I can possibly get to get some essential tech out to defend. I will never have more units then they will, since I will not have the time to make workers to get a higher income, so I need to hold the nexus with fewer units. That means it basically has to be some form of tech unit, like an immortal. 10 seconds is a huge difference in whether I can get it out in time or not. PvP very frequently is won or lost in less time than 10 seconds.
first maybe dont do 1 gate expo vs a one base all in you can scout what protoss is doing and you can make more gates rather then make a nexus lol also theres a thing called chrono that would get that immortal out in time
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On February 03 2014 06:42 Faust852 wrote:
I got a warning for saying Desrow is at best as valuable as Avilo, but Desrow saying Avilo is trash is totally ok...
Objectively, Desrow's WCS Premier spot is more impressive than what avilo has produced in terms of results. This doesn't necessarily make one or the other more qualified to talk about balance, but in terms of results alone Desrow is definitely avilo's superior.
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On February 03 2014 06:46 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 06:42 Faust852 wrote:
I got a warning for saying Desrow is at best as valuable as Avilo, but Desrow saying Avilo is trash is totally ok... Desrow did not say avilo was trash, he said he was far away from being a main player in tournaments, which is true.
Well, we are going off topic with this, but which foreigner except maybe Scarlett and Naniwa (when he decides to show up) are really "main players in tournaments" ?
So by that reasoning, we should dismiss all foreign balance whine/suggestions/discussions etc.
Avilo has a really bad approach at "discussing" balance but he also sometimes has good points.
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On February 03 2014 04:00 desRow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote:
It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.
balance whiners?
How about the sad zealot Fanclub? or did protoss forget about that? why is protoss using winrate now instead of tournament winners (like they did before protoss were winning tournaments, now that tournament finals are PvP, they want to talk about win rate instead of tournament winners? wtF?
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A fresh MsC? With the range and time wrap, how are you going to lose you MsC?
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On February 03 2014 06:42 Faust852 wrote:
I got a warning for saying Desrow is at best as valuable as Avilo, but Desrow saying Avilo is trash is totally ok...
That's because what you said was stupid. You said that Desrow is the same as Avilo and that is wrong. Is avilo in premier league? No didn't think so. Desrow streams a lot, but he was also able to make it to premier league where as Avilo is in the same spot as before (no results, just streams a lot), QQ'ing like non other and raging about balance because he can't turtle for 1 hour and then win.
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On February 03 2014 06:21 Holytornados wrote:
Dem hydras getting so much hate T_T
To be fair though, that is an insane buff and will make Z stupid op again. Kinda like when they drastically changed the queens a few years ago =P?
I am not much of an PvZ expert but with such drastic cost decrease it even isn't about hydras getting to strong. It is more about forcing a robo response from protoss (colossus) and then have more gas for a muta switch.
Not sure if that is viable but with 50-25 gas reduction this could become a problem.
Besides if they want to change anything in PvZ, I think Swarmhost is the unit that needs most attention. It is not necessarily too strong but it promotes passive and boring gameplay.
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On February 03 2014 06:51 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2014 06:42 Faust852 wrote:
I got a warning for saying Desrow is at best as valuable as Avilo, but Desrow saying Avilo is trash is totally ok... That's because what you said was stupid. You said that Desrow is the same as Avilo and that is wrong. Is avilo in premier league? No didn't think so. Desrow streams a lot, but he was also able to make it to premier league where as Avilo is in the same spot as before (no results, just streams a lot), QQ'ing like non other and raging about balance because he can't turtle for 1 hour and then win.
He just got his lucky time, helped by a metagame that might have help him a shit ton. Blink allin good strat yo.
I'm not saying Avilo is good or desrow is bad. They had the same level few weeks ago, and I still think they have a similar level. Just look at the ladder and see how close they are to each other.
Plus i'm not the one who discredited Avilo saying "he should shut up and play", it's desrow's saying.
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EPT
