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SC2 Balance Changes: Pros' Impressions - Page 10

Forum Index > SC2 General
479 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 8 9 10 11 12 24 Next All
Necosarius
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Sweden4042 Posts
February 02 2014 18:20 GMT
#181
I agree with Minigun about the MSC.


IMO they should make the Ghost into a gas heavy unit again but since they want ghost + mech to be a thing that will never happen.
Damngood
Profile Joined April 2013
16 Posts
February 02 2014 18:23 GMT
#182
mma nailed it. Nuff said.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
February 02 2014 18:24 GMT
#183
On February 03 2014 03:13 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:
The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.


Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.

Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units.
Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.


Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O


yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.

What other playstyles?
Paragleiber
Profile Joined June 2009
413 Posts
February 02 2014 18:28 GMT
#184
Cool to see that my favourite player says exactly the same thing that I have been saying. (Ghost buff rather helping bio and not mech)
http://www.twitter.com/Paragleiber
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
February 02 2014 18:29 GMT
#185
On February 03 2014 03:24 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2014 03:13 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:
The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.


Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.

Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units.
Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.


Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O


yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.

What other playstyles?


sorry, "try" to increase the viability of other playstyles.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
February 02 2014 18:33 GMT
#186
On February 03 2014 03:29 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2014 03:24 TheDwf wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:13 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:
The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.


Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.

Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units.
Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.


Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O


yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.

What other playstyles?


sorry, "try" to increase the viability of other playstyles.

But what do you call "other playstyles"?
Finalmastery
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States58 Posts
February 02 2014 18:33 GMT
#187
This is just another example about the clear disconnect between players and Blizzard. I hope that Blizzard will address their map makers too since there has been a resounding cry from the community that this new wave of maps aren't that great (Daedalus point at least). Hopefully Blizzard will take more feedback from the pro players.
" The will to win is nothing without the will to prepare" - Juma Ikaanga
Qwerty85
Profile Joined June 2012
Croatia5536 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-02 18:35:55
February 02 2014 18:34 GMT
#188
Those guys who commented on vision nerf are right on the money. Having high ground vision and denying high ground vision is the most important aspect of stopping or delaying an aggressive play.

In WoL, observer could be sniped and therefore delay the push.
In TvT once you lose your high ground vision, you need to retreat.

In Hots TvP, huge sight radius + low range on terran early game units like marines make high ground vision uncontested and allow protoss to put pressure for as long as they want. This is incredibly bad for the game because it considerably increases number of entry points on blink favored maps.

I also agree that reducing PO by 10 seconds means nothing because the threat of protoss aggression alone makes it impossible for terran to be on the map. It is like going on the map with "naked marines" against speedlings.

As far as time warp goes, it is true that the first one is most important. No matter if it is casted on the ramp to prevent army from coming down or if protoss blinks next to a vespene geyser and slows down terran units by casting that 1st time warp, it is almost always that 1st one that decides the outcome of the blink aggression.
doktorLucifer
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States855 Posts
February 02 2014 18:45 GMT
#189
I don't think this'll really fix TvP, but having more ghost energy will help. They should just buff bunkers or something. Maybe more HP.
LingBlingBling
Profile Joined December 2012
United States353 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-02 18:59:17
February 02 2014 18:50 GMT
#190
Should try to hook up and ask the top tier Koreans since that's who David Kim gets his feed back from and those are the pros he balances around. No offense to some of the NA players asked but the ones he asked are pretty biased when it comes to balance questions, especially Desrow. Would be interesting what some of the Korean zergs feel. Nice feed back though from the Korean Protoss and Terrans asked.
Remember our motto: We ain't got it.
fighter2_40
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States420 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-02 18:59:42
February 02 2014 18:54 GMT
#191
It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.

Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
February 02 2014 18:59 GMT
#192
On February 03 2014 03:33 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2014 03:29 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:24 TheDwf wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:13 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:
The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.


Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.

Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units.
Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.


Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O


yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.

What other playstyles?


sorry, "try" to increase the viability of other playstyles.

But what do you call "other playstyles"?


Things that are not "sit back and build Colossi. then hit a timing".
E.g. they introduced recall and oracles for that reason in HotS. They buffed warp prisms twice to give protoss nondeathball options. they redesigned the VR and it allows for airbased play in ZvP.
They did a lot to move Protoss away from defensive Collossus and Sentry turtle. Now the problem is that P can play too many aggressvie openings and play macro from them.

Im not happy with TvP either, but it's quite hypocritical to have people whine about oracle openings not being an autoloss when scouted but on the same page whine about Protoss design leading to deathball play. Well, nondeathball play means you have units that do damage and get away and are viable. That's what the speedbuff did. now it's time to give Terran options to force Protoss to use those tools more often. (and do something against blink allins imo)
desRow
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2654 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-02 19:03:02
February 02 2014 19:00 GMT
#193
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote:
It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.

Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp


How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.
http://twitch.tv/desrowfighting http://twitter.com/desrowfighting http://facebook.com/desrowfighting
FLuE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1012 Posts
February 02 2014 19:06 GMT
#194
Pro opinions are always interesting.

Blizzard should focus more on making the game fun with more useful spells, build options, and dynamic units. They spend to much time on these micro fixes to help with one scenario in one matchup. Those are the situations that the pros should be able to figure out their own balance if the dynamics of the game allowed it.

We are on a path where each unit is going to do 5 different damages and all upgrades will be free. Blizzard is just patching themselves in a circle.
fireforce7
Profile Joined June 2010
United States334 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-02 19:13:13
February 02 2014 19:11 GMT
#195
glad to know what I was thinking was on the same track as most (if not all) of these guys...25 gas for hydras? thats insane! And the ghost buff is really a timing thing...only saves you 100/100 for mobeus, but that upgrade is only 80 seconds anyways...needs more direct "minor" buffs instead of significant "indirect" buffs that blizzard is going for imo...

If you ask me, they should just nerf both units they're trying to make balanced and work from there instead of just buffing everything each time...maybe they'll find a median from it afterwards?
I'm terranfying
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
February 02 2014 19:11 GMT
#196
On February 03 2014 03:59 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2014 03:33 TheDwf wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:29 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:24 TheDwf wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:13 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:
The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.


Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.

Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units.
Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.


Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O


yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.

What other playstyles?


sorry, "try" to increase the viability of other playstyles.

But what do you call "other playstyles"?


Things that are not "sit back and build Colossi. then hit a timing".
E.g. they introduced recall and oracles for that reason in HotS. They buffed warp prisms twice to give protoss nondeathball options. they redesigned the VR and it allows for airbased play in ZvP.
They did a lot to move Protoss away from defensive Collossus and Sentry turtle. Now the problem is that P can play too many aggressvie openings and play macro from them.

Im not happy with TvP either, but it's quite hypocritical to have people whine about oracle openings not being an autoloss when scouted but on the same page whine about Protoss design leading to deathball play. Well, nondeathball play means you have units that do damage and get away and are viable. That's what the speedbuff did. now it's time to give Terran options to force Protoss to use those tools more often. (and do something against blink allins imo)

Thing is, just because you send an Oracle or some Zealots for harass doesn't mean you're not building some "deathball" at home. Oracles being out of control or Zealots raids rampaging Terran bases would not be a problem if, meanwhile, Protoss' army was not growing exponentially stronger thanks to the accumulation of "terrible, terrible damage" units. It's good that they tried to "normalize" Protoss play, but they completely failed to properly balance it. For instance, you cannot have the best harass and the best lategame; it makes no sense.
fighter2_40
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States420 Posts
February 02 2014 19:13 GMT
#197
On February 03 2014 04:00 desRow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote:
It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.

Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp


How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.


Hi Des,

I guess I am being a bit harsh in my wording. The "bias" that I was seeing here is how accepting you were to the overcharge nerf. It's a very minor and although I can't comment on PvP, I'm gona have to agree with the majority of responses here in saying that it will do nothing for TvP. When we accept a change, we are inadvertently rejecting other changes such as the proposed vision nerf on the mscore, which would be a bigger nerf to protoss. Perhaps you didn't mean it like that but I think it's time for the community to realize that by accepting a balance change, we are foregoing alternative changes that may help the game design a bit more.
ImperialFist
Profile Joined April 2013
790 Posts
February 02 2014 19:14 GMT
#198
On February 03 2014 04:11 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2014 03:59 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:33 TheDwf wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:29 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:24 TheDwf wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:13 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:11 stuchiu wrote:
On February 03 2014 03:04 Big J wrote:
On February 03 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:
The hydra buff is kind of analogous to the oracle speed buff. No one asked for it, no one even thought about it. But here it is.


Throughout half of HotS Oracles (amongst others) have been said to be useless additions and that Protoss still cannot harass properly and is still forced into deathballing.

Noone asked for "the speed buff", but I guess that's what happens when people shittalk units for too long. Blizzard will try to buff those units.
Really, blizzard's balance patches just mirror the community's whines in a naive way.


Protoss is still deathballing after the patch =O


yeah. And Protoss always has and always will. And people will alway whine about it. And blizzard will increase the viability of other playstyles more. And then the community will whine more about Protoss being too unpredictable.

What other playstyles?


sorry, "try" to increase the viability of other playstyles.

But what do you call "other playstyles"?


Things that are not "sit back and build Colossi. then hit a timing".
E.g. they introduced recall and oracles for that reason in HotS. They buffed warp prisms twice to give protoss nondeathball options. they redesigned the VR and it allows for airbased play in ZvP.
They did a lot to move Protoss away from defensive Collossus and Sentry turtle. Now the problem is that P can play too many aggressvie openings and play macro from them.

Im not happy with TvP either, but it's quite hypocritical to have people whine about oracle openings not being an autoloss when scouted but on the same page whine about Protoss design leading to deathball play. Well, nondeathball play means you have units that do damage and get away and are viable. That's what the speedbuff did. now it's time to give Terran options to force Protoss to use those tools more often. (and do something against blink allins imo)

Thing is, just because you send an Oracle or some Zealots for harass doesn't mean you're not building some "deathball" at home. Oracles being out of control or Zealots raids rampaging Terran bases would not be a problem if, meanwhile, Protoss' army was not growing exponentially stronger thanks to the accumulation of "terrible, terrible damage" units. It's good that they tried to "normalize" Protoss play, but they completely failed to properly balance it. For instance, you cannot have the best harass and the best lategame; it makes no sense.


spot on, trying to give protoss non deathball tools that are extremely powerful while still leaving the deathball untouched is insane.
"In the name of Holy Terra I challenge, Take up arms, for the Emperor’s Justice falls on you!"
SirNomNom
Profile Joined December 2013
United States14 Posts
February 02 2014 19:19 GMT
#199
What the hydra
Protoss for life
Pontius Pirate
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United States1557 Posts
February 02 2014 19:20 GMT
#200
What if they made Photon Overcharge 20+20 armored, but have a longer cooldown between shots? That would make stimmed marine runbys more powerful, but would destroy stalkers in PvP scenarios at least as effectively as before.
"I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream
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