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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:02 JacobShock wrote: at least give the runner up a couple of bucks.. Well on paper its a winner takes it all "OMFG SUPER PRESSURED SITUATION EXTREME FINAL", but the "problem" is that it is very likely that the players will split, maybe top 2, maybe top4 depending who is there. | ||
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tadL
Croatia679 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16126 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:05 goofyballer wrote: There's so much derp in this thread of people being like "wow everyone's so ungrateful." It echoes Sundance's retarded tweet however long ago when he said "if you give $5 to esports fans they'll yell at you for not giving them $10". It ignores the valid arguments people are making about how difficult it is to make a living SC2 and how this tournament is exacerbating the problem instead of helping it. San is one of the players qualified for this tournament; he has lifetime winnings of $34,945 dating back to October 2010, according to sc2earnings.com. So in his 40 months of being a pro gamer, and a full-fledged adult now at the age of 21, he's earned an average of $10,483.50 per year; in other words, below the poverty line in the USA. I'm sure he's ecstatic that IEM is giving him a chance to win $100,000 (he won't) with a 93.75% chance of him walking home empty-handed (assuming all players have an equal chance, which they don't) when a team house and whatever meager salary/sponsorships he earn are the only things keeping him from being goddamn homeless. Even MC, the winningest player in SC2 history, has earned $130,000 per year w/o sponsorships+team salary. That's a solid living, sure, but consider that the most successful player ever to play StarCraft 2 barely makes more money from tournaments than your average Google software engineer. When you consider that the vast majority of SC2 players make a small fraction of MC's winnings, why on earth would anyone who has a chance at a good career give that up to make esports poverty money? I'm a software engineer and there isn't a chance in hell I'd ever leave this career to play StarCraft, even if I was one of the best players in the world. So when tournaments like this come along, promising to make one lucky player rich (well, "esports rich", it's just $100k) while 15 players go home with nothing and have ramen for dinner, think about why there aren't more people that could potentially be the next MC or MVP or Naniwa rushing to join the SC2 community and go pro and entertain us with amazing games. I missed the part where it's IEM's responsibility to provide a standard of living for Starcraft professional players. They're a tournament and this prize pool structure is there to generate hype for the tournament because people love watching things played for high stakes whether it's Poker, Sports or E-Sports. IEM isn't in business to cater to the needs of every professional Starcraft 2 player, they are in the tournament running business and their goal in that venture is to make money which relies heavily on hype to generate viewers. I get the plight of the Starcraft professional, really I get it, but the burden isn't on tournaments to provide equal pay out to everyone. What you should be clamoring for is more sustained income for players through sponsorships, you should be campaigning for viewers to turn off adblock, or buying merchandise. Going after the tournaments on this basis doesn't help anything. If the tournaments can't make money, then they shut down and EVERYONE loses. So get it through your head, this move by IEM is a MARKETING STRATEGY. Accept that it isn't meant to be beneficial to the players, it's meant to generate buzz. It's also only ONE fucking tournament, it isn't like IEM is changing EVERY tournament to function this way. I really don't understand why everyone is overreacting towards this. | ||
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DMXD
United States4064 Posts
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iTzSnypah
United States1738 Posts
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:15 Vindicare605 wrote: Going after the tournaments on this basis doesn't help anything. If the tournaments can't make money, then they shut down and EVERYONE loses. So get it through your head, this move by IEM is a MARKETING STRATEGY. Accept that it isn't meant to be beneficial to the players, it's meant to generate buzz. maybe he understands that and just doesn't think it's a good thing? calling people stupid is not a great way to argue. | ||
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agsub
Singapore368 Posts
I think this is a great idea for a one time yearly event. Good job IEM | ||
Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:17 agsub wrote: Too much drama and assumptions regarding players splitting the final prize. Imagine Taeja vs Life finals, will Taeja or Life ever want to split the prize pool? They are skilled enough to win it all, why risk their reputation in case they got found out? (the community never forgives match fixers). I think this is a great idea for a one time yearly event. Good job IEM Splitting prize money isn't match fixing. Once you win the money it is yours and you can do whatever you want with it, including give it to a friend. It's certainly a gray area and I don't think anyone wants that to happen. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16126 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:16 Cheren wrote: maybe he understands that and just doesn't think it's a good thing? calling people stupid is not a great way to argue. Read the first sentence of his post. He's the one calling people stupid, my tone is just as combative as his. | ||
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:18 Darkhoarse wrote: Splitting prize money isn't match fixing. Once you win the money it is yours and you can do whatever you want with it, including give it to a friend. That's not always how it works in the real world, 2 LoL teams agreed to split the prize for 1st place at an MLG and were forced to give up their titles and money after getting caught. http://lol.gamepedia.com/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Summer/Championship | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:15 Vindicare605 wrote: I missed the part where it's IEM's responsibility to provide a standard of living for Starcraft professional players. They're a tournament and this prize pool structure is there to generate hype for the tournament because people love watching things played for high stakes whether it's Poker, Sports or E-Sports. IEM isn't in business to cater to the needs of every professional Starcraft 2 player, they are in the tournament running business and their goal in that venture is to make money which relies heavily on hype to generate viewers. I get the plight of the Starcraft professional, really I get it, but the burden isn't on tournaments to provide equal pay out to everyone. What you should be clamoring for is more sustained income for players through sponsorships, you should be campaigning for viewers to turn off adblock, or buying merchandise. Going after the tournaments on this basis doesn't help anything. If the tournaments can't make money, then they shut down and EVERYONE loses. So get it through your head, this move by IEM is a MARKETING STRATEGY. Accept that it isn't meant to be beneficial to the players, it's meant to generate buzz. It's also only ONE fucking tournament, it isn't like IEM is changing EVERY tournament to function this way. I really don't understand why everyone is overreacting towards this. But the players provide value for the tournament. People tune in to see the players. The tournament and the players use eachother and need eachother. Thats why it can be seen as a problem when a bunch of players showing up to IEM with their value as players/teams and their fanbases in the back, generating business for IEM, and all the players dont get ANYTHING for it. | ||
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goofyballer
United States136 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:10 tadL wrote: Well if the players disagree & the teams dislike this idea too. Just boycot it and IEM will change it. Problem solved or not? Desperate players who are living in esports poverty are not going to sacrifice their $6,250 equity in this tournament for the sake of a boycott. You should probably read up on Wikipedia about "collective bargaining" and then notice that there is no SC2 player union. On January 28 2014 09:15 Vindicare605 wrote: I missed the part where it's IEM's responsibility to provide a standard of living for Starcraft professional players. They're a tournament and this prize pool structure is there to generate hype for the tournament because people love watching things played for high stakes whether it's Poker, Sports or E-Sports. IEM isn't in business to cater to the needs of every professional Starcraft 2 player, they are in the tournament running business and their goal in that venture is to make money which relies heavily on hype to generate viewers. I get the plight of the Starcraft professional, really I get it, but the burden isn't on tournaments to provide equal pay out to everyone. What you should be clamoring for is more sustained income for players through sponsorships, you should be campaigning for viewers to turn off adblock, or buying merchandise. Going after the tournaments on this basis doesn't help anything. If the tournaments can't make money, then they shut down and EVERYONE loses. So get it through your head, this move by IEM is a MARKETING STRATEGY. Accept that it isn't meant to be beneficial to the players, it's meant to generate buzz. So what is ESL's business? Are they losing money on this tournament? If this is supposed to be a profitable venture for them (I assume it is, they're a business after all), how are they going to continue to run tournaments when all the pro gamers die of MSG cancer from the ramen they bought with food stamps because they went home from IEM Katowice empty-handed? Everyone who is in the business of Starcraft - Blizzard, tournament organizers, players, fans - should be interested in the sustainability and well-being of the community, much like fishermen should be concerned with sustainably harvesting their catch from fisheries (yet too often, greed takes over and ecosystems are over-farmed and destroyed). This tournament is not doing so. | ||
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:22 Cheren wrote: That's not always how it works in the real world, 2 LoL teams agreed to split the prize for 1st place at an MLG and were forced to give up their titles and money after getting caught. http://lol.gamepedia.com/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Summer/Championship They also derped around in the finals and didn't even try. IIRC, they played every game 5v5 mid only. I'm sure prize splitting has happened multiple times in the past without anyone knowing, the difference is the players still play to win...they just don't play with money on the line. | ||
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UberNuB
United States365 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:05 WolfintheSheep wrote: Technically, tournaments like these are hurting the top players, not the mid tier ones. It's supposed to be a tournament for the top 16 in the world, after all. And I doubt there are even 200+ pros in the first place. Maybe not even 100. Think about the fact there were 3 WCS regions last year, each with more than 50 players (between challenger/premier). That alone is 150 players, plus there are a ton of Kespa players not in GSL/WCS. I would image there is somewhere around 300-400 players trying to make it as pro-gamers (most full time players). That is just far too many for a game that only gets around 20,000 - 30,000 stream viewers on premiere tournaments outside of finals. That means roughly 1% of the active eSports community are trying to play this game professionally. While it would probably get stale, I would actually enjoy it if we only have 30-50 players total. There would be so much better story lines. We wouldn't have cases where all the crowd favorites are knocked out in Ro16 and some "unknown" wins -- i.e. basically every tournament last year. | ||
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:24 WolfintheSheep wrote: They also derped around in the finals and didn't even try. IIRC, they played every game 5v5 mid only. I'm sure prize splitting has happened multiple times in the past without anyone knowing, the difference is the players still play to win...they just don't play with money on the line. Nope, only the first game. They were both playing to win after that, just not for money, exactly the way you describe. Anyway I'm just saying you can't always "give money to a friend" if the friend is the player or team you beat. It all depends on the rules of the tournament. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16126 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:23 Fjodorov wrote: But the players provide value for the tournament. People tune in to see the players. The tournament and the players use eachother and need eachother. Thats why it can be seen as a problem when a bunch of players showing up to IEM with their value as players/teams and their fanbases in the back, generating business for IEM, and all the players dont get ANYTHING for it. Ok so if the players are so against this format they'll boycott it and IEM will lose viewers. But we know that's not going to happen. Plenty of top players are going to show up because they'd be stupid to pass up a chance at 100,000 dollars. The prize pool is the only obligation the tournament has. People will show up to a 100 grand tournament, IEM is already going a step further than they actually NEED to by providing lodging and travel expenses. The players are going to come. | ||
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QuietEnvoy
Portugal21 Posts
On January 28 2014 04:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: It's hard to be negative about a $100k announcement but this is just bad. This is sad and bad for the game, teams, players and in the end to fans. As a fan I want that these young guys that are playing at an age that are suppose to be study at least have some money in the bank to make a decent transition after being players. Nowadays money is the end to anything and we keep forget that players, teams and sponsors, all the ecosystem that build this machine, have to make money to be sustainable. I love to watch players practicing daily on twitch.tv. Recently I watch Warer Invitacional and I was happy that these player were "fighting" for nice cash price. I discover Warer.com so this company should be happy because I get the message, it was a great tournament and it was small. Works fine for all the parts. At the end this is one way to destroy teams and players effort. No one will be happy about this. | ||
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goofyballer
United States136 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:30 Vindicare605 wrote: Ok so if the players are so against this format they'll boycott it and IEM will lose viewers. But we know that's not going to happen. Plenty of top players are going to show up because they'd be stupid to pass up a chance at 100,000 dollars. The prize pool is the only obligation the tournament has. People will show up to a 100 grand tournament, IEM is already going a step further than they actually NEED to by providing lodging and travel expenses. The players are going to come. Sounds like you also need to read up on collective bargaining and how things generally go when large organizations negotiate with disjointed individuals. If you think that desperate players showing up to an event that might pay them money to live on (but probably won't) instead of boycotting is an implicit endorsement of its structure and a good thing, then, uh...wow. | ||
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Sprouter
United States1724 Posts
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