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On January 28 2014 09:51 Verror wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 09:44 ivancype wrote:
Thats why I don't get why SC2 outside KR/Proleague have "pro" teams. Teams are supposed to pay a salary to players but because teams are not emphasized enough in SC2 they cant get good sponsorships and without those many players don't earn a good salary or get money at all. Then players rely on prizes to live, but there is not enough money in the scene to sustain these "pro" players. It wouldn't be a big deal to have a prize pool like these if players got paid well by their teams.
Maybe if SC2 worked more like tennis (no teams/individual sponsors/different levels of tournaments)... Or WCS go full team league... I'm more confused why people who play a sport as a living expect to earn a living if they can't compete. If I'm a hockey player who can't make it into a decent league, why should anyone be paying me for this? Am I not just doing this for fun? Same thing with Starcraft players, If you can't play at the level where the money is, why are you expecting to earn money?
top16 IEM isnt good enough for you? Guess you have to have standards but...
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On January 28 2014 09:51 Verror wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 09:44 ivancype wrote:
Thats why I don't get why SC2 outside KR/Proleague have "pro" teams. Teams are supposed to pay a salary to players but because teams are not emphasized enough in SC2 they cant get good sponsorships and without those many players don't earn a good salary or get money at all. Then players rely on prizes to live, but there is not enough money in the scene to sustain these "pro" players. It wouldn't be a big deal to have a prize pool like these if players got paid well by their teams.
Maybe if SC2 worked more like tennis (no teams/individual sponsors/different levels of tournaments)... Or WCS go full team league... I'm more confused why people who play a sport as a living expect to earn a living if they can't compete. If I'm a hockey player who can't make it into a decent league, why should anyone be paying me for this? Am I not just doing this for fun? Same thing with Starcraft players, If you can't play at the level where the money is, why are you expecting to earn money?
SC2 at the current state is more like if you don't make it into the Stanley cup finals, you get paid little to no salary.
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United States23455 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:42 Orcasgt24 wrote:
I get the feeling this tourney will produce the best games of the year. The finals will probably be the best series. Lookin forward to it!
Also it is just one tourney out of thousands. Not sure what the big deal is. Like the IEM guys said, if you don't think you can win maybe you shouldn't try and save the travel money.
Believe it or not the prize pool isn't what makes the games good, and the finals doesn't mean the games will be good.
Case in point the Taeja vs. Innovation series at the WCS Season 2 finals was incredible and the finals between Bomber and Jaedong kinda sucked.
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On January 28 2014 09:48 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 09:43 Verror wrote:
If the players are -GOING TO- split this, as a fair number of people, esports personalities included, have suggested then that is just sad. I'm with IEM at this point, having Katowice as a fun, one off, intense tournament FOR THE FANS seems like a great idea. There are no players who depended on 14th place at an IEM event to pay the bills (or any position tbh). If I'm wrong about that, it's a fault of the player, not the tournament.
This will be fun to watch. I haven't followed a SC2 tourney intently in 6 months or so, but I will for this one. Mission accomplished IEM.
Edit: to clarify, I have faith in the sc2 pros that they won't match fix for 25-50k... I hope I am proven right. Match fixing is if they decide who is going to win before they even play the games. Thats not what ppl are talking about. Its entirely possible, and not even anything wrong with, the final two players splitting so that lets say first place gets 70k and second 30k. They will both play their best to win, just making sure they both get a good amount of money.
There is no way that I personally would play as hard (not necessarily well) if I knew that I was going to receive $50k win or lose.
As a fan, I want to see 2 people playing as hard as they can, knowing one will get everything, and one will walk away with nothing.
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On January 28 2014 09:55 Verror wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 09:48 Fjodorov wrote:On January 28 2014 09:43 Verror wrote:
If the players are -GOING TO- split this, as a fair number of people, esports personalities included, have suggested then that is just sad. I'm with IEM at this point, having Katowice as a fun, one off, intense tournament FOR THE FANS seems like a great idea. There are no players who depended on 14th place at an IEM event to pay the bills (or any position tbh). If I'm wrong about that, it's a fault of the player, not the tournament.
This will be fun to watch. I haven't followed a SC2 tourney intently in 6 months or so, but I will for this one. Mission accomplished IEM.
Edit: to clarify, I have faith in the sc2 pros that they won't match fix for 25-50k... I hope I am proven right. Match fixing is if they decide who is going to win before they even play the games. Thats not what ppl are talking about. Its entirely possible, and not even anything wrong with, the final two players splitting so that lets say first place gets 70k and second 30k. They will both play their best to win, just making sure they both get a good amount of money. There is no way that I personally would play as hard (not necessarily well) if I knew that I was going to receive $50k win or lose. As a fan, I want to see 2 people playing as hard as they can, knowing one will get everything, and one will walk away with nothing.
players would obviously not split 50/50 but 70/30 or something, so there would be still a huge incentive to win. You are one hell of a fan if you enjoy seeing a guy who got 2 at a GLOBAL FINALS events get nothing. Imagine only the winner of Wimbledon get anything.
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On January 28 2014 09:36 sd_andeh wrote:
You guys do realize how much hype IEM has gotten already, only a couple of hours after their announcement? ^^
I think everyone whining about their decision is playing right into their hands. This is like already the most talked about tournament for like years.
Well played IEM, well played.
Most people in this thread and reddit would be watching the IEM world finals regardless.
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On January 28 2014 09:53 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 09:51 Verror wrote:On January 28 2014 09:44 ivancype wrote:
Thats why I don't get why SC2 outside KR/Proleague have "pro" teams. Teams are supposed to pay a salary to players but because teams are not emphasized enough in SC2 they cant get good sponsorships and without those many players don't earn a good salary or get money at all. Then players rely on prizes to live, but there is not enough money in the scene to sustain these "pro" players. It wouldn't be a big deal to have a prize pool like these if players got paid well by their teams.
Maybe if SC2 worked more like tennis (no teams/individual sponsors/different levels of tournaments)... Or WCS go full team league... I'm more confused why people who play a sport as a living expect to earn a living if they can't compete. If I'm a hockey player who can't make it into a decent league, why should anyone be paying me for this? Am I not just doing this for fun? Same thing with Starcraft players, If you can't play at the level where the money is, why are you expecting to earn money? top16 IEM isnt good enough for you? Guess you have to have standards but...
Certainly good enough for me, but the fact that 1 tournament having an irregular prize pool structure is going to "make or break" you? IMO this event is superb for fans, and /slightly annoying/ for the players (other than the winner, who'll be jumping for joy). IEM is getting a lot of undeserved hate for a cool idea.
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Whoever loses in this tournament is going to be so demoralized, it just might actually be self inflicted career suicide...
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United States23455 Posts
On January 28 2014 09:55 Verror wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 09:48 Fjodorov wrote:On January 28 2014 09:43 Verror wrote:
If the players are -GOING TO- split this, as a fair number of people, esports personalities included, have suggested then that is just sad. I'm with IEM at this point, having Katowice as a fun, one off, intense tournament FOR THE FANS seems like a great idea. There are no players who depended on 14th place at an IEM event to pay the bills (or any position tbh). If I'm wrong about that, it's a fault of the player, not the tournament.
This will be fun to watch. I haven't followed a SC2 tourney intently in 6 months or so, but I will for this one. Mission accomplished IEM.
Edit: to clarify, I have faith in the sc2 pros that they won't match fix for 25-50k... I hope I am proven right. Match fixing is if they decide who is going to win before they even play the games. Thats not what ppl are talking about. Its entirely possible, and not even anything wrong with, the final two players splitting so that lets say first place gets 70k and second 30k. They will both play their best to win, just making sure they both get a good amount of money. There is no way that I personally would play as hard (not necessarily well) if I knew that I was going to receive $50k win or lose. As a fan, I want to see 2 people playing as hard as they can, knowing one will get everything, and one will walk away with nothing.
By that logic every final that has given prize money to the runner up has been a farce where they didn't play as hard as they could.
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On January 28 2014 09:59 Verror wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 09:53 Fjodorov wrote:On January 28 2014 09:51 Verror wrote:On January 28 2014 09:44 ivancype wrote:
Thats why I don't get why SC2 outside KR/Proleague have "pro" teams. Teams are supposed to pay a salary to players but because teams are not emphasized enough in SC2 they cant get good sponsorships and without those many players don't earn a good salary or get money at all. Then players rely on prizes to live, but there is not enough money in the scene to sustain these "pro" players. It wouldn't be a big deal to have a prize pool like these if players got paid well by their teams.
Maybe if SC2 worked more like tennis (no teams/individual sponsors/different levels of tournaments)... Or WCS go full team league... I'm more confused why people who play a sport as a living expect to earn a living if they can't compete. If I'm a hockey player who can't make it into a decent league, why should anyone be paying me for this? Am I not just doing this for fun? Same thing with Starcraft players, If you can't play at the level where the money is, why are you expecting to earn money? top16 IEM isnt good enough for you? Guess you have to have standards but... Certainly good enough for me, but the fact that 1 tournament having an irregular prize pool structure is going to "make or break" you? IMO this event is superb for fans, and /slightly annoying/ for the players (other than the winner, who'll be jumping for joy). IEM is getting a lot of undeserved hate for a cool idea.
Again, slightly annoying is a massive understatement. $15,000 is a massive deal for the runner up, and a lot more than an "annoyance".
$7,500 is also a very big deal for 3 and 4. And $3,750 is still very meaningful for 5 to 8.
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On January 28 2014 09:57 TBO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 09:55 Verror wrote:On January 28 2014 09:48 Fjodorov wrote:On January 28 2014 09:43 Verror wrote:
If the players are -GOING TO- split this, as a fair number of people, esports personalities included, have suggested then that is just sad. I'm with IEM at this point, having Katowice as a fun, one off, intense tournament FOR THE FANS seems like a great idea. There are no players who depended on 14th place at an IEM event to pay the bills (or any position tbh). If I'm wrong about that, it's a fault of the player, not the tournament.
This will be fun to watch. I haven't followed a SC2 tourney intently in 6 months or so, but I will for this one. Mission accomplished IEM.
Edit: to clarify, I have faith in the sc2 pros that they won't match fix for 25-50k... I hope I am proven right. Match fixing is if they decide who is going to win before they even play the games. Thats not what ppl are talking about. Its entirely possible, and not even anything wrong with, the final two players splitting so that lets say first place gets 70k and second 30k. They will both play their best to win, just making sure they both get a good amount of money. There is no way that I personally would play as hard (not necessarily well) if I knew that I was going to receive $50k win or lose. As a fan, I want to see 2 people playing as hard as they can, knowing one will get everything, and one will walk away with nothing. players would obviously not split 50/50 but 70/30 or something, so there would be still a huge incentive to win. You are one hell of a fan if you enjoy seeing a guy who got 2 at a GLOBAL FINALS events get nothing. Imagine only the winner of Wimbledon get anything.
I feel like a total as****e having to constantly defend my opinion, but this is just one tourney. I'll keep saying that If any player NEEDED IEM as an income source... well I hope no players planned their life around that.
And yes, I DO think that for every dollar earned that they players will play better, especially if its 20k+
If I was in that position I would NEVER agree to some prize split, It would feel as bad as match-fixing. I hope that the majority of pro's feel the same. Although I'm now not sure if that's the case.
Edit: I should have said played "harder" the finals will (imo) likely be awful, because the players will be SO nervous, but that's the essence of competition
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On January 28 2014 10:06 Verror wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 09:57 TBO wrote:On January 28 2014 09:55 Verror wrote:On January 28 2014 09:48 Fjodorov wrote:On January 28 2014 09:43 Verror wrote:
If the players are -GOING TO- split this, as a fair number of people, esports personalities included, have suggested then that is just sad. I'm with IEM at this point, having Katowice as a fun, one off, intense tournament FOR THE FANS seems like a great idea. There are no players who depended on 14th place at an IEM event to pay the bills (or any position tbh). If I'm wrong about that, it's a fault of the player, not the tournament.
This will be fun to watch. I haven't followed a SC2 tourney intently in 6 months or so, but I will for this one. Mission accomplished IEM.
Edit: to clarify, I have faith in the sc2 pros that they won't match fix for 25-50k... I hope I am proven right. Match fixing is if they decide who is going to win before they even play the games. Thats not what ppl are talking about. Its entirely possible, and not even anything wrong with, the final two players splitting so that lets say first place gets 70k and second 30k. They will both play their best to win, just making sure they both get a good amount of money. There is no way that I personally would play as hard (not necessarily well) if I knew that I was going to receive $50k win or lose. As a fan, I want to see 2 people playing as hard as they can, knowing one will get everything, and one will walk away with nothing. players would obviously not split 50/50 but 70/30 or something, so there would be still a huge incentive to win. You are one hell of a fan if you enjoy seeing a guy who got 2 at a GLOBAL FINALS events get nothing. Imagine only the winner of Wimbledon get anything. I feel like a total as****e having to constantly defend my opinion, but this is just one tourney. I'll keep saying that If any player NEEDED IEM as an income source... well I hope no players planned their life around that. And yes, I DO think that for every dollar earned that they players will play better, especially if its 20k+ If I was in that position I would NEVER agree to some prize split, It would feel as bad as match-fixing. I hope that the majority of pro's feel the same. Although I'm now not sure if that's the case.
I am quite sure most players will play worse if they know that they will get nothing if they lose. That is some gigantic pressure you put on them. Imagine what it does to 18-25 years old person to be the guy who nearly won 100k and got nothing. Imagine that's the first time they are even in a final - of a tournament of the best of the best. And then you get no reward at all.
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On January 28 2014 09:51 Verror wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 09:44 ivancype wrote:
Thats why I don't get why SC2 outside KR/Proleague have "pro" teams. Teams are supposed to pay a salary to players but because teams are not emphasized enough in SC2 they cant get good sponsorships and without those many players don't earn a good salary or get money at all. Then players rely on prizes to live, but there is not enough money in the scene to sustain these "pro" players. It wouldn't be a big deal to have a prize pool like these if players got paid well by their teams.
Maybe if SC2 worked more like tennis (no teams/individual sponsors/different levels of tournaments)... Or WCS go full team league... I'm more confused why people who play a sport as a living expect to earn a living if they can't compete. If I'm a hockey player who can't make it into a decent league, why should anyone be paying me for this? Am I not just doing this for fun? Same thing with Starcraft players, If you can't play at the level where the money is, why are you expecting to earn money?
I agree with you and I think what you are saying adds to my point. SC2 needs a more coherent system so whoever enters this career path knows when they need to find something else for a living.
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On January 28 2014 10:00 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 09:55 Verror wrote:On January 28 2014 09:48 Fjodorov wrote:On January 28 2014 09:43 Verror wrote:
If the players are -GOING TO- split this, as a fair number of people, esports personalities included, have suggested then that is just sad. I'm with IEM at this point, having Katowice as a fun, one off, intense tournament FOR THE FANS seems like a great idea. There are no players who depended on 14th place at an IEM event to pay the bills (or any position tbh). If I'm wrong about that, it's a fault of the player, not the tournament.
This will be fun to watch. I haven't followed a SC2 tourney intently in 6 months or so, but I will for this one. Mission accomplished IEM.
Edit: to clarify, I have faith in the sc2 pros that they won't match fix for 25-50k... I hope I am proven right. Match fixing is if they decide who is going to win before they even play the games. Thats not what ppl are talking about. Its entirely possible, and not even anything wrong with, the final two players splitting so that lets say first place gets 70k and second 30k. They will both play their best to win, just making sure they both get a good amount of money. There is no way that I personally would play as hard (not necessarily well) if I knew that I was going to receive $50k win or lose. As a fan, I want to see 2 people playing as hard as they can, knowing one will get everything, and one will walk away with nothing. By that logic every final that has given prize money to the runner up has been a farce where they didn't play as hard as they could.
Pretty much. I get the feeling that people who can't see past the money just aren't very competitive (which is fine, not everyone is). I doubt Jaedong gives a shit how much money he won from all his 2nd places last year. All he sees is a bunch of 2nds and no titles. When you're as competitive as most of these pros are, you just want to win. Chopping a prizepool won't change this. Doing so is extremely common in poker tournaments and I cannot recall a single time in a major tournament where two people chopped heads-up and proceeded to shove every hand until the tournament was over (aka not trying to win).
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United States23455 Posts
On January 28 2014 10:06 Verror wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 09:57 TBO wrote:On January 28 2014 09:55 Verror wrote:On January 28 2014 09:48 Fjodorov wrote:On January 28 2014 09:43 Verror wrote:
If the players are -GOING TO- split this, as a fair number of people, esports personalities included, have suggested then that is just sad. I'm with IEM at this point, having Katowice as a fun, one off, intense tournament FOR THE FANS seems like a great idea. There are no players who depended on 14th place at an IEM event to pay the bills (or any position tbh). If I'm wrong about that, it's a fault of the player, not the tournament.
This will be fun to watch. I haven't followed a SC2 tourney intently in 6 months or so, but I will for this one. Mission accomplished IEM.
Edit: to clarify, I have faith in the sc2 pros that they won't match fix for 25-50k... I hope I am proven right. Match fixing is if they decide who is going to win before they even play the games. Thats not what ppl are talking about. Its entirely possible, and not even anything wrong with, the final two players splitting so that lets say first place gets 70k and second 30k. They will both play their best to win, just making sure they both get a good amount of money. There is no way that I personally would play as hard (not necessarily well) if I knew that I was going to receive $50k win or lose. As a fan, I want to see 2 people playing as hard as they can, knowing one will get everything, and one will walk away with nothing. players would obviously not split 50/50 but 70/30 or something, so there would be still a huge incentive to win. You are one hell of a fan if you enjoy seeing a guy who got 2 at a GLOBAL FINALS events get nothing. Imagine only the winner of Wimbledon get anything. I feel like a total as****e having to constantly defend my opinion,
You aren't an "as****e" for having and defending your opinion. That's allowed.
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Take Teamliquid's first commandment for example:
1. This is our house.
This is our house and you are our guests. We will do everything in our power to treat everyone with respect and accommodate everyone's wishes, but this is a private site, so when you're here, you abide by our rules. We're not obligated to observe anyone's notions of free speech or fairness, but we will try to. Feel free to open a dialogue with staff or moderators or give suggestions in the Website Feedback Forum.
I don't see why IEM is obligated either, excepting downright illegal and/or immoral behaviour - like not paying the winners, etc.
The only alternative is an organized front from a majority of the players (like a players' guild/union or something) - who can then leverage IEM to suit the prize structure to the players' needs. If enough people are upset, and don't watch the tournament or enough prominent players don't attend, then IEM will find it in its interest to make necessary changes. Until then, there's not much to say about this.
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United States23455 Posts
This looks like a job for Huk's player's union that never really happened.
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On January 28 2014 10:06 Verror wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 09:57 TBO wrote:On January 28 2014 09:55 Verror wrote:On January 28 2014 09:48 Fjodorov wrote:On January 28 2014 09:43 Verror wrote:
If the players are -GOING TO- split this, as a fair number of people, esports personalities included, have suggested then that is just sad. I'm with IEM at this point, having Katowice as a fun, one off, intense tournament FOR THE FANS seems like a great idea. There are no players who depended on 14th place at an IEM event to pay the bills (or any position tbh). If I'm wrong about that, it's a fault of the player, not the tournament.
This will be fun to watch. I haven't followed a SC2 tourney intently in 6 months or so, but I will for this one. Mission accomplished IEM.
Edit: to clarify, I have faith in the sc2 pros that they won't match fix for 25-50k... I hope I am proven right. Match fixing is if they decide who is going to win before they even play the games. Thats not what ppl are talking about. Its entirely possible, and not even anything wrong with, the final two players splitting so that lets say first place gets 70k and second 30k. They will both play their best to win, just making sure they both get a good amount of money. There is no way that I personally would play as hard (not necessarily well) if I knew that I was going to receive $50k win or lose. As a fan, I want to see 2 people playing as hard as they can, knowing one will get everything, and one will walk away with nothing. players would obviously not split 50/50 but 70/30 or something, so there would be still a huge incentive to win. You are one hell of a fan if you enjoy seeing a guy who got 2 at a GLOBAL FINALS events get nothing. Imagine only the winner of Wimbledon get anything. I feel like a total as****e having to constantly defend my opinion, but this is just one tourney. I'll keep saying that If any player NEEDED IEM as an income source... well I hope no players planned their life around that. And yes, I DO think that for every dollar earned that they players will play better, especially if its 20k+ If I was in that position I would NEVER agree to some prize split, It would feel as bad as match-fixing. I hope that the majority of pro's feel the same. Although I'm now not sure if that's the case.
Hate to break it to you, but a lot of SC2 players are piss-poor.
Second place at last year's IEM WC was $15,000. It was also more than a quarter of First's all-time earnings in SC2.
No one plans around getting second, or third/fourth, at IEM WC, but that kind of money could really be make-or-break cash for a lot of the players.
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Not a big fan of winner take all but it should still be awesome to watch.
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This sounds pretty epic. If every tournament did it, yeah ok that could be unsustainable.
A one off? Yeah woo woo IEM!
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EPT
