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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. |
I would like to point out that it is when blizzard has listened to the community that we've ended up with a shit game. No rush maps, no way to kill eachother before 10 minutes, screaming for buffs only to have that race totally dominate after when all they needed to do was to wait.
Progamers are wrong about balance 99% of the time. People always think that what they currently know is pretty much always correct, and things will not change... this does not just apply to sc2. Most of the time, you are in retrospect completely wrong.
Personally I am excited to see what blizzard can do if they ignore the anger of the community ( who would be angry no matter what you did ) because in the end, Blizzard gets the blame for the poor gameplay of sc2, when all they did was listen to the community previously.
#freedavidkim
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On January 24 2014 04:11 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 03:15 Whitewing wrote:
Oh god, that tempest buff will be insane in PvT and PvP (I play Protoss) and will not noticeably impact PvZ Why shouldn't it? Tempests are part of your late-game PvZ army and one of the reasons zerg the match-up goes on forever is because you can't break spore crawlers because all your core units die to them. (void ray, tempest, colossus) I still wouldn't want to play a game where you have to wait for tempests to kill buildings, but it does give a minor timing/resource advantage to protoss and might dissuade zerg from such passive play and pull them towards more decisive strategies. Or maybe it won't do anything (say, because now protoss has incentive to turtle more), but I don't think you can tell right away.
The problem with PvZ isn't that Spores and Spines are hard to kill, its the fact that they are spending so many resources just keeping up with the SwarmHost/Viper/Curruptor composition that fighting Spines and Spores would be suicide. Giving Carriers Interceptors without having to buy them every time they die would accomplish this resource disadvantage, 1) They wouldn't have to constantly replenish Interceptors and waste resources which is a huge disadvantage when fighting Free Units lategame when resources are super scarce and super valuable 2) Would give them a unit that is much stronger against Static Defense because of Interceptors causing AI to get confused 3) Give Protoss a Unit that lategame can keep up with the powerful powerful Zerg compositions. Vipers will still be able to abduct and since the Carriers still cost a lot to produce, it will still be very strong. But I think this would also give Carriers some new life in the game, because now they make an appearance every 2 years or so.
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Please make inceptors free for the Carrier.. IMO That's hugellyyyy the biggest problem with the unit.
Also decrease build time slightly and then the carrier might actually be viable for once.
The hydra buff is quite non-sense and won't go through.
The ghost buff is actually ok, will open up some early ghost play.
The tempest buff will prove to be imba against Terran in 1 base Tempest rush.
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On January 24 2014 04:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 04:12 ggofthejungle wrote:
Why do they always have DRASTIC CHANGES? Like the queen range was changed from 3 to 5, why not from 3 to 4?
why a hydra change from 50 to 25 gas instead of 50 to 40 gas? Why does it have to be such a huge change in numbers al the time? because firerange of hellions was 5, so 5 is the numebr you need to push them back...
Damn you and your logic and math.
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Mech + Ghosts is not much funnier than swarmhosts on ZvP.
Also, i actually like the hydra change, i always thought they were overcosted.
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United States102 Posts
wow. These changes don't fix a thing xD
Oh hey, ghosts will be able to emp what a few seconds earlier? That will change sooooo much.... NOT Hey blizzard, get rid of every upgrade and lets start off all units with all their supporting upgrades :D Essentially what i'm saying is that this wont change anything because upgrades are just there for timings anyways.
Photon overcharge will stop being up 10 seconds sooner after killing the pushes. Seriously... How many battles last the entire length of this?
the energy for time warp wont really change anything. They can still do 2 timewarps i believe. Just not as soon.
Really hydra cost less gas? This is not the issue with hydras at all lol If anything in ZvP this will make the pushes easier but Hydra's were so balanced with gas/mineral income it will just mess up the economy. Even in ZvZ economy isnt the issue. We get maxed super fast anyways. 50 units is all that roach hydra allows.
EDIT: I might be wrong here, BUT hydralisks without any sort of support is bad, hydra/ling is probably the best. and how it is currently allows for that with ease.
And Seriously!? Tempests dealing extra damage vs buildings?? Lol who the crap thought of that.... I'm not even going to explain how stupid that will be.
Anyways, i havn't played this game for a month due to injuries, but after this i don't think i'll ever come back to this game. IF i do play starcraft, i will do it to play starbow. Because the main game is just broken sooooo badly. lol
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On January 24 2014 03:17 Plansix wrote:
Man, I just want to be able to burn back creep with my colossi. Then I don't have to deal with spines and spores.
Yeah I want anti creep shells on my tanks. I am afraid of creep as Terran ! :o
Wonder what Hydras will do now, but they will work fairly well on low extractor count I assume. But the Hydra into Muta punch will hurt even more, will have to test on that.
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On January 24 2014 04:09 matthy wrote:Show nested quote +Ghosts build with the energy upgrade built in
We believe this change will not only help Terran against Protoss, which is our top concern right now, but it’ll also help with TvP mech. Right now, we’re seeing a lot more mech usage in both TvT and TvZ, and as far as mech buffs go, we’d like to only touch TvP right now. This will buff TvP bio not mech... To buff mech an emp on a tank, thor or any factory (maybe a starport unit) is required. But they will notice it in engouh time hopefully
This is just the removal of the science vessel still hurting them 4 years later. I don't even comprehend how they figured mech would ever be truly viable vsP when they gave ghost emps. Starport units are so much easier to combine with both barracks and factory units, while forcing you to use barracks while meching is just stupid. But since blizzard is not interested in actually fixing the issues with their bad design they will continue to do crap like the energy upgrade removal which will probably turn bio vs p into a timing attack fest.
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On January 24 2014 04:16 nkr wrote:
I would like to point out that it is when blizzard has listened to the community that we've ended up with a shit game. No rush maps, no way to kill eachother before 10 minutes, screaming for buffs only to have that race totally dominate after when all they needed to do was to wait.
Progamers are wrong about balance 99% of the time. People always think that what they currently know is pretty much always correct, and things will not change... this does not just apply to sc2. Most of the time, you are in retrospect completely wrong.
Personally I am excited to see what blizzard can do if they ignore the anger of the community ( who would be angry no matter what you did ) because in the end, Blizzard gets the blame for the poor gameplay of sc2, when all they did was listen to the community previously.
#freedavidkim
Yes this is exactly what always happens. And it's hard because sometimes there are some really good ideas, but who knows what that would do to the game? Because we have no way to test them out whatsoever. The problem is, the people with the good ideas usually get drowned out by the loud, screaming minority of people who will always complain no matter what is going on.
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Hmm. From this it looks like they are on the right track as far as TvP goes (at least to an extent) but I don't think changes are big enough to have any actual effect on the matchup.
First of all, even with 100 energy time warp, protoss will still be able to cast 2 very fast (now they can get even 3 if attack lasts a bit longer) and that first 2 are most important anyway - weather they are casted on the ramp or on the back of the base to slow down bio or SCVs to get to that (usually 4th) bunker on blink maps like Yeonsu.
Also, PO is completely useless. It won't change absolutely anything. Protoss will still have around 2 warp in cycles under PO duration. It reminds me of good old bunker build time increases in several patches.
Blizzard will probably get PO right at 3rd or 4th try.
Not sure what to think about hydra upgrade.. We have been seeing them a lot recently and I am not sure they even need buff. I would rather see them change Swarmhosts somehow to make them more an aggressive unit instead of turtle passive unit.
Maybe something like giving them more HP or faster burrow/unuburrow but slower locust spawn rate (so that they need to change positions more and not just camp the same place for 20 minutes). Basically make them stronger in the short bursts but more vulnerable if they camp the same place for too long.
It is a balance test map for God's sake, not an actual patch. Blizzard should be braver and make stronger changes, they don't need to get into the patch at all (or they could be toned down) if it turns out the change is too drastic.
Also, where is MSC vision reduction. All units in the game that provide high ground vision can be sniped and therefore prevent or delay the push. Terran doesn't have anything that can shoot down MSC (marines with 5 range will never do the trick) so it is a risk free pressure for protoss.
And as far as tempest change goes. All I can say is lol. What is the point of that change?
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Hydra buff would be sick for this Swarmhost + Hydra composition ( in ZvT) I've been seeing on ladder
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On January 24 2014 03:57 aZealot wrote:
Oh well, I suppose a patch was inevitable. I do hope that this will be the last one for a long while.
I tend to think that some SC2 match-ups (PvZ *cough*) can become stale if left alone and that patching to spice them up is a necessary evil even if realistically you should want the players to develop new strategies themselves. The problem is that there is no proper motivation for the players if there are no balance concerns. If PvZ really is 50/50 in these late-game scenarios then the players have no reason to try and steer the game away from them.
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On January 24 2014 03:07 Aeromi wrote:Show nested quote +Photon Overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 50
We’d like to try a smaller change with Photon Overcharge duration than we previously proposed because we agree that going too low on this side could negatively affect PvP. On the balance test map, we must make sure to not only test how the change works out against the other races, but also in one-base PvP play.
Time Warp energy cost increased from 75 to 100
This is another option we can go with. We hope this will decrease the effectiveness of early game Protoss strength, as well as somewhat decrease the power of Blink-based strategies, which have become a lot more effective recently.
Ghosts build with the energy upgrade built in
We believe this change will not only help Terran against Protoss, which is our top concern right now, but it’ll also help with TvP mech. Right now, we’re seeing a lot more mech usage in both TvT and TvZ, and as far as mech buffs go, we’d like to only touch TvP right now.
Hydralisk cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25
We’re most concerned about PvZ with this change since Hydralisks are really only a core unit in that matchup. We’d love to see how the testing goes for this change on the next balance test map.
We don’t think this will be problematic for either side in TvZ right now. It’s very Zergling/Baneling/Mutalisk focused for Zerg, whereas Terran players are exploring mech play and have the already solid option to go bio. We were thinking this buff will potentially help open up some more options for Zerg in this matchup.
In ZvZ, we’re seeing a lot more Roach focused strategies than before and believe this change will allow for easier Roach/Hydra transitions.
Overall, we want to check what a general Hydralisk buff would do for all three matchups in the next balance test map.
Late game PvZ
Additionally on the Zerg front, we’re seeing a bit more in the way of super long and dragged out PvZ games in Europe. We’ve been discussing this internally and believe the main issue comes from using Swarm Hosts in a completely defensive way while taking additional expansions, massing Spore and Spine Crawlers, then continuing to play passively while using Vipers to pull key Protoss units into the forward, massed Zerg defenses. For this strategy, there are two main units involved, as well as the massing of base defenses, and we’d like a change that only hits this specific part of the PvZ game. We believe that when Swarm Hosts are not used in this manner, they aren’t an issue at the moment, especially when we see them being used in a lot of games coming from Korea. Similarly, when Vipers aren’t comboed with a mass of base defenses, we also don’t see the Viper being too powerful in other scenarios.
So the change that we’re thinking about is:
A Passive Tempest ability that allows them to deal 2-3 times more damage vs. Structures (We’re not 100% set on the actual value yet.)
Protoss players who are facing this very passive Zerg style can get Tempests without too much trouble, and they come into play late enough that we’d like to test this change. If Tempests can not only kill the Crawlers much faster, but also allow Protoss to make cost effective trades more easily in this mid-map standoff scenario, we believe there will be much less incentive for Zerg to play this way.
Again, none of this is final. We haven’t published a balance test map on it, yet. Your feedback is welcome, and if this process goes smoothly, we will look to publish a balance test map within the next couple of weeks at the latest.
Thank you. Source : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11395649563
Really don't see any purpose behind nerfing the nexus cannon time... That is not really the issue here imo. Mothership core vision needs a nerf over that. But, the time warp nerf is adequate and definitely very necessary. I think this will help all matchups increase the micro ability and decision making for everyone involved.
Ghost buff may or may not be adequate. I'm interested in seeing if it'll allow T some versatility in the first 10-12mins of the game. I'm willing to predict though that all it will do is increase the viability of TvP All-ins, and ease the mid-game transition for T vs Templar style. Necessary buff? Not sure...worth testing though
Hydra buff seems odd.. Not certain why you'd decrease the gas so significantly. Zerg already is capable of getting tons of gas, and making the cost that dramatically low seems too much of a buff. Even then I'm unsure that this is a good approach to improving Z Aggression in the matchup. tl;dr I don't think approaching improving PvZ with a hydra buff is really a good answer..
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A lot more changes than I was anticipating, awesome xD
I wonder how the Hydra cost reduction will work out, maybe zerg won't want to sit back and mass swarm hosts as much.
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40 gas for hydralisks might be much more reasonable. No need to do costs in increments of 25.
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wtf.
the problem is how quickly protoss can build units from chronoed warpgates late game. Not a 100/100 upgrade for ghost energy.
Just look at any late game pvt. goddamn it WATCH PRO GAMES BLIZZARD, do you guys even play/watch sc2 anymore? How can they be so out of touch. Literally every unit protoss can build is chronoed out faster than anything useful late game for terran + it is fucking placed where they need it on the map, how is that balance? I give up just gonna race switch... 
Warpgate build times
Barracks build times
User was warned for this post
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On January 24 2014 04:19 ArTiFaKs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 04:16 nkr wrote:
I would like to point out that it is when blizzard has listened to the community that we've ended up with a shit game. No rush maps, no way to kill eachother before 10 minutes, screaming for buffs only to have that race totally dominate after when all they needed to do was to wait.
Progamers are wrong about balance 99% of the time. People always think that what they currently know is pretty much always correct, and things will not change... this does not just apply to sc2. Most of the time, you are in retrospect completely wrong.
Personally I am excited to see what blizzard can do if they ignore the anger of the community ( who would be angry no matter what you did ) because in the end, Blizzard gets the blame for the poor gameplay of sc2, when all they did was listen to the community previously.
#freedavidkim Yes this is exactly what always happens. And it's hard because sometimes there are some really good ideas, but who knows what that would do to the game? Because we have no way to test them out whatsoever. The problem is, the people with the good ideas usually get drowned out by the loud, screaming minority of people who will always complain no matter what is going on.
I have always felt that if you follow the community when designing your game or attempting to balance it, they will just lead you to making a shitty, bland game.
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EPT
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