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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. |
Blizz threw in a ludicrous hydra buff just to distract people from the fact that P is wrecking terrans across the globe (with the exception of Maru, Flash and TY, and even they lose outside of proleague). Now, everyone is talking about buffing hydras by reducing their gas cost by 50% (why don't we have 50 gas banshees, DT's while we're at it) because, well, that's the most insane thing in the list.
At the same time, there's not enough attention to properly discuss the TvP situation, and the effect that changing TW has on blink stalkers and the nexus cannot duration change on the ability of P to tech up all paths with 2 forge on 1 gateway. The answer is, it's just not enough. Functionally, how does the 25 energy stop you from casting TW? Has anyone seen a double TW being cast in a blink stalker rush? No, you don't even need it. So, won't you get 100 energy by the time your blink stalkers attack? Well, you do always get it, and quite a bit to spare as well (proof anyone?). So, effectively, the change does nothing.
What about the 10 second nerf? The problem now is that the only timings a T can hit can only bait out an overcharge. By the time it's gone, the P has 1 colossus and up to 2 new warp-ins of units. As warp-ins are 28 seconds for zealots and 32 seconds for stalkers, in brute numbers you now strictly cannot get 2 warp-ins of zealots. But it's roughly the same for stalkers as those took longer than 60 seconds anyway. Furthermore, for the timings by T I've seen recently (think Bomber v Jim), the colossus was already out and idling in the natural by the time the PO has dissipated. So the 10 seconds wouldn't really change anything. If it were really close, it might.
So, my prediction is that this is just a red herring, while it's business as usual.
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your Country52797 Posts
On January 24 2014 04:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 04:19 ArTiFaKs wrote:On January 24 2014 04:16 nkr wrote:
I would like to point out that it is when blizzard has listened to the community that we've ended up with a shit game. No rush maps, no way to kill eachother before 10 minutes, screaming for buffs only to have that race totally dominate after when all they needed to do was to wait.
Progamers are wrong about balance 99% of the time. People always think that what they currently know is pretty much always correct, and things will not change... this does not just apply to sc2. Most of the time, you are in retrospect completely wrong.
Personally I am excited to see what blizzard can do if they ignore the anger of the community ( who would be angry no matter what you did ) because in the end, Blizzard gets the blame for the poor gameplay of sc2, when all they did was listen to the community previously.
#freedavidkim Yes this is exactly what always happens. And it's hard because sometimes there are some really good ideas, but who knows what that would do to the game? Because we have no way to test them out whatsoever. The problem is, the people with the good ideas usually get drowned out by the loud, screaming minority of people who will always complain no matter what is going on. I have always felt that if you follow the community when designing your game or attempting to balance it, they will just lead you to making a shitty, bland game.
Only if you try to listen to everyone. If they collaborated with the Starbow creator(s) then I think they could do something good.
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On January 24 2014 04:18 UltiBahamut wrote:
wow. These changes don't fix a thing xD
Oh hey, ghosts will be able to emp what a few seconds earlier? That will change sooooo much.... NOT Hey blizzard, get rid of every upgrade and lets start off all units with all their supporting upgrades :D Essentially what i'm saying is that this wont change anything because upgrades are just there for timings anyways.
Photon overcharge will stop being up 10 seconds sooner after killing the pushes. Seriously... How many battles last the entire length of this?
the energy for time warp wont really change anything. They can still do 2 timewarps i believe. Just not as soon.
Really hydra cost less gas? This is not the issue with hydras at all lol If anything in ZvP this will make the pushes easier but Hydra's were so balanced with gas/mineral income it will just mess up the economy. Even in ZvZ economy isnt the issue. We get maxed super fast anyways. 50 units is all that roach hydra allows.
EDIT: I might be wrong here, BUT hydralisks without any sort of support is bad, hydra/ling is probably the best. and how it is currently allows for that with ease.
And Seriously!? Tempests dealing extra damage vs buildings?? Lol who the crap thought of that.... I'm not even going to explain how stupid that will be.
Anyways, i havn't played this game for a month due to injuries, but after this i don't think i'll ever come back to this game. IF i do play starcraft, i will do it to play starbow. Because the main game is just broken sooooo badly. lol
Great thanks for posting nothing but bitching and acting like you've already tested all these changes out so you know exactly what will happen if each of them were implemented. I'm glad your understanding of the game is so elite that if they tweak a couple things you have already played out each and every scenario that could occur in your head. I'm actually glad you won't be coming back to the game, because this community could use less people like you around.
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On January 24 2014 03:26 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I love all the changes!! Wish we could get them tomorrow. :D
while i dont agree with all the changes it is nice to see something positive among all the pointless hate
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On January 24 2014 03:07 Aeromi wrote:
Late game PvZ
Additionally on the Zerg front, we’re seeing a bit more in the way of super long and dragged out PvZ games in Europe. We’ve been discussing this internally and believe the main issue comes from using Swarm Hosts in a completely defensive way while taking additional expansions, massing Spore and Spine Crawlers, then continuing to play passively while using Vipers to pull key Protoss units into the forward, massed Zerg defenses. For this strategy, there are two main units involved, as well as the massing of base defenses, and we’d like a change that only hits this specific part of the PvZ game. We believe that when Swarm Hosts are not used in this manner, they aren’t an issue at the moment, especially when we see them being used in a lot of games coming from Korea. Similarly, when Vipers aren’t comboed with a mass of base defenses, we also don’t see the Viper being too powerful in other scenarios.
So the change that we’re thinking about is:
A Passive Tempest ability that allows them to deal 2-3 times more damage vs. Structures (We’re not 100% set on the actual value yet.)
when I read the 1st paragraph I thought for sure they were about to make massive air units immune to abduct...
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On January 24 2014 04:23 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 04:22 Plansix wrote:On January 24 2014 04:19 ArTiFaKs wrote:On January 24 2014 04:16 nkr wrote:
I would like to point out that it is when blizzard has listened to the community that we've ended up with a shit game. No rush maps, no way to kill eachother before 10 minutes, screaming for buffs only to have that race totally dominate after when all they needed to do was to wait.
Progamers are wrong about balance 99% of the time. People always think that what they currently know is pretty much always correct, and things will not change... this does not just apply to sc2. Most of the time, you are in retrospect completely wrong.
Personally I am excited to see what blizzard can do if they ignore the anger of the community ( who would be angry no matter what you did ) because in the end, Blizzard gets the blame for the poor gameplay of sc2, when all they did was listen to the community previously.
#freedavidkim Yes this is exactly what always happens. And it's hard because sometimes there are some really good ideas, but who knows what that would do to the game? Because we have no way to test them out whatsoever. The problem is, the people with the good ideas usually get drowned out by the loud, screaming minority of people who will always complain no matter what is going on. I have always felt that if you follow the community when designing your game or attempting to balance it, they will just lead you to making a shitty, bland game. Only if you try to listen to everyone. If they collaborated with the Starbow creator(s) then I think they could do something good.
Oh god, just leave Starbow out of this. It's not even balanced, so let's not even get into that whole debate.
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On January 24 2014 04:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 04:15 Big J wrote:On January 24 2014 04:12 ggofthejungle wrote:
Why do they always have DRASTIC CHANGES? Like the queen range was changed from 3 to 5, why not from 3 to 4?
why a hydra change from 50 to 25 gas instead of 50 to 40 gas? Why does it have to be such a huge change in numbers al the time? because firerange of hellions was 5, so 5 is the numebr you need to push them back... Damn you and your logic and math.
Actually it's not that clear cut. Some unstimmed marines vs some non-blink stalkers is a close fight and mainly up to micro, despite the range difference.
With the attack lag of the hellion, queens with 4 range would probably have been good enough on creep. Just saying.
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your Country52797 Posts
On January 24 2014 04:25 muzzy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 04:23 The_Templar wrote:On January 24 2014 04:22 Plansix wrote:On January 24 2014 04:19 ArTiFaKs wrote:On January 24 2014 04:16 nkr wrote:
I would like to point out that it is when blizzard has listened to the community that we've ended up with a shit game. No rush maps, no way to kill eachother before 10 minutes, screaming for buffs only to have that race totally dominate after when all they needed to do was to wait.
Progamers are wrong about balance 99% of the time. People always think that what they currently know is pretty much always correct, and things will not change... this does not just apply to sc2. Most of the time, you are in retrospect completely wrong.
Personally I am excited to see what blizzard can do if they ignore the anger of the community ( who would be angry no matter what you did ) because in the end, Blizzard gets the blame for the poor gameplay of sc2, when all they did was listen to the community previously.
#freedavidkim Yes this is exactly what always happens. And it's hard because sometimes there are some really good ideas, but who knows what that would do to the game? Because we have no way to test them out whatsoever. The problem is, the people with the good ideas usually get drowned out by the loud, screaming minority of people who will always complain no matter what is going on. I have always felt that if you follow the community when designing your game or attempting to balance it, they will just lead you to making a shitty, bland game. Only if you try to listen to everyone. If they collaborated with the Starbow creator(s) then I think they could do something good. Oh god, just leave Starbow out of this. It's not even balanced, so let's not even get into that whole debate.
I only used starbow as an example because it's novel right now, I don't even like it. Sorry.
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On January 24 2014 04:25 muzzy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 04:23 The_Templar wrote:On January 24 2014 04:22 Plansix wrote:On January 24 2014 04:19 ArTiFaKs wrote:On January 24 2014 04:16 nkr wrote:
I would like to point out that it is when blizzard has listened to the community that we've ended up with a shit game. No rush maps, no way to kill eachother before 10 minutes, screaming for buffs only to have that race totally dominate after when all they needed to do was to wait.
Progamers are wrong about balance 99% of the time. People always think that what they currently know is pretty much always correct, and things will not change... this does not just apply to sc2. Most of the time, you are in retrospect completely wrong.
Personally I am excited to see what blizzard can do if they ignore the anger of the community ( who would be angry no matter what you did ) because in the end, Blizzard gets the blame for the poor gameplay of sc2, when all they did was listen to the community previously.
#freedavidkim Yes this is exactly what always happens. And it's hard because sometimes there are some really good ideas, but who knows what that would do to the game? Because we have no way to test them out whatsoever. The problem is, the people with the good ideas usually get drowned out by the loud, screaming minority of people who will always complain no matter what is going on. I have always felt that if you follow the community when designing your game or attempting to balance it, they will just lead you to making a shitty, bland game. Only if you try to listen to everyone. If they collaborated with the Starbow creator(s) then I think they could do something good. Oh god, just leave Starbow out of this. It's not even balanced, so let's not even get into that whole debate.
funny to use this argument to decredibilise starbow when sc2 isn't better atm.
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On January 24 2014 04:18 UltiBahamut wrote:
wow. These changes don't fix a thing xD
Oh hey, ghosts will be able to emp what a few seconds earlier? That will change sooooo much.... NOT Hey blizzard, get rid of every upgrade and lets start off all units with all their supporting upgrades :D Essentially what i'm saying is that this wont change anything because upgrades are just there for timings anyways.
Photon overcharge will stop being up 10 seconds sooner after killing the pushes. Seriously... How many battles last the entire length of this?
the energy for time warp wont really change anything. They can still do 2 timewarps i believe. Just not as soon.
Ghosts will be more accessible for Mech that way. Which they explained and its true. Its also a huge Bio buff, cloaked Ghosts will be so much earlier now in Ghost Viking, wonder how strong the effects will be.
I dislike removal of upgrades as well (Ultras should still have 2, so there is enough time to react to them), but they do change alot.
2 Timewarps are often okay, but if there was a full MsC, you often got a 3rd one a little time later and those often broke the last bit of resistance. This 3rd one will be impossible now and weaken alot of Protoss pushes.
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I'd like to see a range nerf for the PO rather than duration nerf. It's pretty ridiculous that this **** protects the whole base. Would make more sense if it protected only the mineral line + a little bit further.
Ghost upgrade : why not
+1 for vision range nerf on mamacore.
+10 to a carrier rework. this unit could be the PvZ solution instead of tempests.
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On January 24 2014 04:23 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 04:22 Plansix wrote:On January 24 2014 04:19 ArTiFaKs wrote:On January 24 2014 04:16 nkr wrote:
I would like to point out that it is when blizzard has listened to the community that we've ended up with a shit game. No rush maps, no way to kill eachother before 10 minutes, screaming for buffs only to have that race totally dominate after when all they needed to do was to wait.
Progamers are wrong about balance 99% of the time. People always think that what they currently know is pretty much always correct, and things will not change... this does not just apply to sc2. Most of the time, you are in retrospect completely wrong.
Personally I am excited to see what blizzard can do if they ignore the anger of the community ( who would be angry no matter what you did ) because in the end, Blizzard gets the blame for the poor gameplay of sc2, when all they did was listen to the community previously.
#freedavidkim Yes this is exactly what always happens. And it's hard because sometimes there are some really good ideas, but who knows what that would do to the game? Because we have no way to test them out whatsoever. The problem is, the people with the good ideas usually get drowned out by the loud, screaming minority of people who will always complain no matter what is going on. I have always felt that if you follow the community when designing your game or attempting to balance it, they will just lead you to making a shitty, bland game. Only if you try to listen to everyone. If they collaborated with the Starbow creator(s) then I think they could do something good.
That's mostly just a few folks and they are now dealing with all the problems Blizzard has with balance. They are ignoring more suggestions than they are listening too from what I can tellz
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On January 24 2014 03:28 Rider517 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 03:24 Rider517 wrote:
i hope david kim get fired
User was warned for this post since i have another chance to insult david kim, i'm going to do it. i hope david kim get assigned to balance lego. User was temp banned for this post.
Better yet, Jenga!
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interesting changes ... espcially the ghost one. don't think PO duration will do much, neither the timewarp mana cost. I agree that they should fix the mamacore vision or increase blink research time a bit.
btw guys:
Code A results so far, check the racial distribution ...
And same here ...
Now, Terran is even struggling in Korea ... if that doesn't make them change something, then I lost all hope
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On January 24 2014 04:11 BlueLanterna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 04:06 ArTiFaKs wrote:
TimeWarp nerf is a good step, it will take a lot longer to cast 2 timewarps in a row now which is a big reason why Blink is so strong, because stalkers just wreck the weak marines stuck in timewarp. And everyone complaining that it reduces micro ability, there were lots of these abilities in BroodWar as well, the Arbiter had stasis field that locked units for like 1 minute it was ridiculous.
you're talking apples and oranges here w BW, in stasis field your units are completely invulnerable and immobile, so there is technically no reduction in micro (you don't pay attention to those units and use your attention on other things until stasis field ends) like people complain about in SC2 where fungal/forcefield locks down your units and they're still able to be attacked.
They are still able to be attacked, but you're units are still able to attack as well. And locking down half your army in a lategame scenario to where you army is half the size, so you just take that half out and then once Stasis ends, take the other half out. It was much much much stronger than any ability currently in SC2. Just because you can be attacked, you can still attack back as well.
I've always said that FF needs some kind of counter-play to make it a much less aggravating ability to play against, because all it does right now is completely shut down the opposing players ability to react or respond to what is happening in the game. Like last night watching WCS America, this zerg lost 2 times in a row to the ol' 4 sentry in a Warp Prism blocking off a ramp trick. And there is literally nothing the Zerg can do at that point except lose. There needs to be some kind of counter-play off of this ability, it would make it much more exciting to watch, as well as make it much less frustrating and aggravating to playagainst at the same time. Just my opinion.
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Wow, that Hydra cost haha. Really?
PO change seems to insignificant. Time Warp change is a step in the right direction. Ghost change is good. Would like to see more to limit protoss, the blink/blink fakes and all the other crap is giving far too many options and which can easily be transitioned out of.
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It's very sad to see how many people can be so short sighted when looking at the proposed changes for patches... I don't pretend to know that all of these possible changes will be good/bad, but every single patch I see has hordes of people yelling about how this that and the other thing is insignificant and won't change anything or that it will totally break everything.
1. The ghost change probably wouldn't change anything when using ghosts the way people currently do in TvP, but it might open up ghost rushing which could do a lot.
2. Photon overcharge might be too soft of a nerf, but that's why we try changes instead of putting them straight into the game...
3. The hydra buff does sound too strong, admittedly because muta switches from hydra ling are already very good, but again, we try it, and if the test map shows its too strong, it can be removed, no worries. I'm a Zerg and I'd love for it to work out because I suspect it could do wonders in ZvT and ZvZ.
4. The time warp nerf seems pretty solid. It means that a MSC at 150 energy now needs another 50 before it can double time warp as opposed to already having enough for 2 time warps. It also means that a full energy MSC can still double time warp, but will now be a whopping 100 energy away from doing ANYTHING as opposed to before where 25 energy later it could lay down a 3rd TW or have a recall/PO in only 50 energy. That certainly sounds like it has the potential to be a game changer at least.
5. The possible tempest buff is almost impossible to comment on, the late game mass swarm host turtle style isn't the most popular so I haven't actually seen it in a while, they haven't released the numbers they actually want to try so there is no way to know how many tempests would be necessary to negate a Zerg turtle style, and if the hydra buff went through the whole opening phase of ZvP might shift entirely and a huge tempest buff might be a now necessary late game edge for Toss.
Overall I like the suggested changes for testing, and after we see what that testing produces I'll be able to give an opinion on whether or not I'd like them to go through. Anyone who's approaching it from a perspective of "I already know what this will do" is almost certainly wrong. Seriously just from a historical perspective alone most of the knee jerk reaction to patches is actually flat out incorrect most of the time.
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I think these changes are a little knee-jerk. I think the 60-second PO feels strong, but is important in keeping PvX games interesting and fun to watch.
Hydras are going to snowball so hard at that cost, and Zergs are hardly hurting for gas. It seems a bit ridiculous given the current map pool.
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On January 24 2014 03:13 Teoita wrote:
Hydra buff: competely useless and pointless. Zerg doesnt need more gas than they have now.
Mothership Core: change vision range to fix blink allins, other than that it's ok
Ghost upgrade: might bring back the ghost before medivac builds. I'm unsure what this will do to current templar builds but i doubt it'll change much honestly.
Time warp energy: what's the point of this? Why is time warp a problem? The power of blink all-ins is the vision
Tempest buff: doesnt change shit about the zerg having way more resources and, in general, making for incredibly boring games. Also it's a PvT buff, and protoss is already absolutely undefeatable when we can get tempests together with colo/templar.
I'll quote this and add that protoss upgrades costs were lowered during patch 1.4.2 to let Toss some more defensive options.
Now that there's the mothership core, I'd suggest to reconsider those a little.
Also, something I consider really intelligent from LiquidTLO's twitter
I realise it's just for the test but, even considering it shows a completely lack of current knowledge of the game  I'm very sad. I wish we had more balance changes that are subtle. Even adding 5-10hp or playing with the attack cooldown of a unit would change so much... All the changes are just to change timings, they don't solve any core issues. Which sadly has been the balance approach for far too long now
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-Time warp nerf should stay, but they should also decrease the MSC vision.
-The Hydra buff is completely insane. The added gas will be so good in hydra vs muta in ZVZ, while the 3-base Hydra-ling push against protoss with a muta tech switch will simply be overpowered. As a zerg, I love my hydras but this won't go through, there is no way.
-I don't understand the ghost buff, we might see ghost rushes before medivac to nullify 2-base templar builds, but there is no way this is going to make mech stronger vP, this will only slightly improve bio.
-Tempests will be too strong. I like that the balance team is concerned with the swarmhost making matchups stale, but this will wreck zergs, who are already weak vs any kind of air, while making them even more face-wrecking in late-game pvt.
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EPT
