EPTOn July 23 2014 07:20 Fishgle wrote:
You know what starbow needs? A $$$FASTESTEST$$$ map. Casuals love $$$FASTESTEST$$$
You know what starbow needs? A $$$FASTESTEST$$$ map. Casuals love $$$FASTESTEST$$$
Yup, that's right. We'll get to it
Starbow - Page 308
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Sikian
Spain177 Posts
Yup, that's right. We'll get to it | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On July 23 2014 07:10 404AlphaSquad wrote: I have a very strong opinion on casuals: This is gonna be a rant so feel free to not read it. + Show Spoiler + Casuals do not care. In fact casuals have no idea what is good or bad in a game because they dont know what they are doing. The casual scene doesnt care about carrier microbility or micro in general because I have yet to see decent micro out of a true casual player. They dont care about macro mechanics either. They dont understand the deepness of a professional executed build or the deepness of the game. They just want to build an army and units or play a specific strategy like reaper/banshee/dt/6pool or turtle and go superarmy. Honestly the only sc2 playerbase I know in RL are casuals. They dont even queue for games. They make a 4v4 map vs AI. Turtle half an hour and attack with carriers/BC/broodlords. That just showcases that it is not important how the units are designed like. If SC2 would have been StarBow, the casual scene wouldnt have cared in the slightest and would have still bought the game. All this bs "oh we make compromises to satisfy casuals and pros" is just utterly dumb, because casuals shouldnt be looked at when creating an RTS imo. it would be like making chess 2.0 and making it stupid, less flexible and less pieces to make compromises. Sure the pros will still win most of the time but the game has lost alot of exciting stuff compared to its predecessor. PS: dont read this unless you are a casual player and dont be offended by it: + Show Spoiler + Also to all the casuals out there: If you dont want to play a game and improve on it, dont play it or play it without complaining about anything because you understand nothing. dont ruin the game with your complains. Yeh that's Lalush's argument as well. To play the Devil's advocat, one could argue that his argument ignores nuances of casual play. What about silver/gold-league players for instance. They have probably invested hundreds of hours into Sc2, but obviously still aren't that good. So they are still a part of the target group for a competitive game, but will also suffer if the game has too many learning obstacles. So I am not 100% decided on this matter, but overall, I believe Lalush's approach is the most solid: Design 1v1 almost entirely around competitive play and then give casuals something entirely else that they will enjoy. If one reads Artillerys blogs it seems that Day9 is attemping to make the 1on1 game fun for casuals and competitve play, which could be troublesome. But perhaps a different RTS model can make the game fun for both casuals and competitve players. I say it's unlikely, but I cant rule it out entirely. | ||
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FT.aCt)Sony
United States1049 Posts
On July 23 2014 07:10 404AlphaSquad wrote: I have a very strong opinion on casuals: This is gonna be a rant so feel free to not read it. + Show Spoiler + Casuals do not care. In fact casuals have no idea what is good or bad in a game because they dont know what they are doing. The casual scene doesnt care about carrier microbility or micro in general because I have yet to see decent micro out of a true casual player. They dont care about macro mechanics either. They dont understand the deepness of a professional executed build or the deepness of the game. They just want to build an army and units or play a specific strategy like reaper/banshee/dt/6pool or turtle and go superarmy. Honestly the only sc2 playerbase I know in RL are casuals. They dont even queue for games. They make a 4v4 map vs AI. Turtle half an hour and attack with carriers/BC/broodlords. That just showcases that it is not important how the units are designed like. If SC2 would have been StarBow, the casual scene wouldnt have cared in the slightest and would have still bought the game. All this bs "oh we make compromises to satisfy casuals and pros" is just utterly dumb, because casuals shouldnt be looked at when creating an RTS imo. it would be like making chess 2.0 and making it stupid, less flexible and less pieces to make compromises. Sure the pros will still win most of the time but the game has lost alot of exciting stuff compared to its predecessor. PS: dont read this unless you are a casual player and dont be offended by it: + Show Spoiler + Also to all the casuals out there: If you dont want to play a game and improve on it, dont play it or play it without complaining about anything because you understand nothing. dont ruin the game with your complains. Summed up Starcraft 2 for me. Game has been shit because its been dumbed down. There is no real skill gap. Casual players win because of game imbalances and its pathetic whereas in Brood War, we as players who dedicated our time to the game were known and had skill. It wasn't easy getting to B+/A-/++ in PGTour and likewise in ICCup between 04-08. Now that the game is so dumbed down, there is no respect for anyone from the past other than the players who were in the past. Been saying it for years, Browder's concepts and job title of lead game design ruined Starcraft. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On July 23 2014 07:18 Sikian wrote: Kalevi, as far as I understand: only people which high a lot of time and skill are endorsed to an opinion on its balance and gameplay. That's really poor. EDIT: Furthermore, your opinion on balance isn't as valid as dirtybag's just because you aren't as hardcore as he is. Btw, this would make Byleth being the most valid person on the community. I said casual  I am certainly not casual to starbow... . I might not be pro but I know what I am doing in the game. Oh and dirtybags and other Good people´s thoughts on balance are always welcome. Of course my opinion on balance is less valid than dirtybags, franscars or byleth´s opinion. I mean people who actually understand the game, I personally want opinions from them. Not from random casuals because their feedback is unvaluable to me. By casual I mean play less than 3 times per week. Everyone can have an opinion on things, I am not interested in those from casuals. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
Lets look at LoL for example. Even if you die 10 times, the game is already over, but it doesnt feel over. Because there are still towers in place and you still have your abilities. You can´t get rushed in this game the same way as in SC. even if the game is lost the casual doesnt know it is over. He can still play around with his hero and do stuff and learn. This is not the case in sc2. When it is over it is over immediately. It was a mistake to even attempt to "compromise" between casuals and professionals for this genre, because casuals will still hate this game and pros will "hate" it because it lacks the same skill ceiling from other RTS games, that dont care about casuals. | ||
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viperattack999
Canada32 Posts
On July 23 2014 08:01 404AlphaSquad wrote: Starcraft is compared to other RTS games certainly not designed by default to be casual friendly. Even SC2 is horrible for everyone who wants to try an RTS for the first time. He goes in builds stuff and suddenly there is an army and destroys him. Next game he cant even get an army because there are cannons/dts other stuff. Next game he thinks, ok I get stuff and attack: whoops there are tanks/collossi/ff spines. doesnt do anything and he loses again. And nothing explains to the casual player what he did wrong. Lets look at LoL for example. Even if you die 10 times, the game is already over, but it doesnt feel over. Because there are still towers in place and you still have your abilities. You can´t get rushed in this game the same way as in SC. even if the game is lost the casual doesnt know it is over. He can still play around with his hero and do stuff and learn. This is not the case in sc2. When it is over it is over immediately. Yes. Starcraft, and certainly starbow is not a game that you can sit down for a few hours and be good a.... ... And that's why we like it. Its complicated. Takes time and practice and there will always be someone better than you. Theres always more to learn and something else to get good at. Broodwar was broodwar because it was soooo damn hard. It didn't compromise its values for beginners, whiners, or anything else. And thats why it was the best damn RTS EVER. Even pros had more to learn. This should not be seen as a bad thing. The reason we get so angry at SC2 and Blizzard is BECAUSE they compromised the integrity of the game to make it noob friendly. Its why we like Starbow sooo much. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
We "fixed" the tanks yesterday so they would stop dealing damage to air unit. It resulted in them not dealing any damage to armored units. Now both should be fixed. | ||
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Sikian
Spain177 Posts
On July 23 2014 07:53 404AlphaSquad wrote: I said casual I am certainly not casual to starbow... . I might not be pro but I know what I am doing in the game. Oh and dirtybags and other Good people´s thoughts on balance are always welcome. Of course my opinion on balance is less valid than dirtybags, franscars or byleth´s opinion. I mean people who actually understand the game, I personally want opinions from them. Not from random casuals because their feedback is unvaluable to me. By casual I mean play less than 3 times per week. Everyone can have an opinion on things, I am not interested in those from casuals. I guess I won't express my opinion then  | ||
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KarneEspada
United States72 Posts
edit: ah, it seems that the change goes through but it doesn't register visually in the hotkeys menu. | ||
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Sikian
Spain177 Posts
On July 23 2014 17:29 KarneEspada wrote: Hi, I haven't played in a while but for some reason a lot of stuff got unbound (I assume due to changes, etc). I am able to successfully rebind everything except Attack. Every time I try to rebind attack, it doesn't save. It doesn't matter what I save it to. Additionally, if I rebind attack then rebind something else before saving, it again resets to blank. Any ideas? Sorry if this was asked already! I had the same issue some time ago, but I'm not sure how I solved it. There's a thread in Starbow about it http://starbowmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=482 You could probably try by reimporting the hotkeys, but I'm not sure if it's an actual solution. | ||
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-Dustin-
United States718 Posts
On July 23 2014 17:29 KarneEspada wrote: Hi, I haven't played in a while but for some reason a lot of stuff got unbound (I assume due to changes, etc). I am able to successfully rebind everything except Attack. Every time I try to rebind attack, it doesn't save. It doesn't matter what I save it to. Additionally, if I rebind attack then rebind something else before saving, it again resets to blank. Any ideas? Sorry if this was asked already! edit: ah, it seems that the change goes through but it doesn't register visually in the hotkeys menu. I had the same problem for awhile it eventually fixed itself. Not sure what happened. In my case though I could still use a-move it just would tell me at the start of every game that I had unbound hotkeys. It never caused any problems though. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
This qualifier will be OPEN TO ALL. Read more here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/459910-400-starbow-ladder-cup-season-2 | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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DoT_TL
Singapore47 Posts
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Sikian
Spain177 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On July 24 2014 11:30 DoT_TL wrote: ^respect for you sir. And all the mods who are making all these happen. I don't play as much but I have to say I really enjoyed watching the casts on xiphias channel. Starbow is a great game All I have to say sir, is: <3 <3 <3 | ||
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velvex
Germany226 Posts
It seems that you're struggling with getting bio play right, especially versus Protoss. I'm not experienced enough with Starbow to know what exactly the problem there is, but what I am getting is that bio is either too strong and wins too often in the early game or it is too weak and you might as well go into mech directly. With a change to upgrades the commitment to bio or mech could be reduced from "production buildings, unit upgrades and weapon upgrades" to only "production buildings and unit upgrades", which could overall allow for a wider variety of compositions. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
Also zealots are stronger in starbow as they don't charge but then slow down and they are harder to kite. | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
On July 25 2014 17:37 -Archangel- wrote: Bio is good vs Zerg and with Ghosts good vs Terran. It is only weak vs Toss as toss has Reavers and Storm and Starbow has no marauders and no medivacs (medivacs would be a perfect counter to Reaver as good players would just load a few units that scarab is going towards to closest medivac). Also zealots are stronger in starbow as they don't charge but then slow down and they are harder to kite. I don't see why this can't be done with dropships. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On July 25 2014 18:14 19Meavis93 wrote: I don't see why this can't be done with dropships. Well the meta revolves around getting medics and not medivacs and hence the dropship does become a bit different than the medivac although the tech routes are the same. Also, could you re-upload "fallen empire" with "use latest version" of the Starbow mod file, so it's updated as well as make sure 2v2 is always south vs North? It's a fun 2v2 map but it's not up to date. | ||
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