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ciox
58 Posts
On July 22 2014 05:12 Xiphias wrote: [*] Shock no longer unsieges, doubles attack cooldown, and does not disable weapons. It still disables reaver weapon as this is an ability. This seems confusing...what does Shock actually do right now? Or maybe the wiki's up to date? | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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iknowFiRE
Slovenia37 Posts
You click and cast them and once cast, nothing can be done except wait out till they dissapear. So they are bad spells now? because it doesnt matter they are quite balanced by other means, either they have high energy cost or something else. The problem why similar abilities in sc2 like fungal and forcefield suck is because some are available too early, some are so extremely spammable due to low energy costs, the way units clump together by default is also a huge factor, not to mention smart-casting, they just simply didnt adjust things properly to allow such spells. or why are some sc2 units ultra lame, its got much more to do with the way how everything attacks super fast with no chance to micro or u lose dps and keeping big balls of units together. I always thought addition of marauder/roach/immortal, the 1 dimensional atackmove units while removing the high micro potential of vulture/lurker/reaver was big mistake, but its not like these bw units are known for incredible countermicro the opponent could do, its the opposite, they allow the user to micro unlike the new sc2 units and if u can micro, why does every spell in existance need to be countered? it just never was the case in bw and in case of shock it might not need to be either, but whatever, lockdown would be even better and it allows even less of your countermicro. I just find it so funny, if everything needs to be like that, why dont units normal attack shoot where they aim so ud have to move them and aim their weapons at the same time and opponent could countermicro by moving his units way or contermicro his mining workers with your units acting as mineral blockades, obstruct fliers with floating rax, etc. I admit it would be curious to see if a game like that could work reasonably well | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
Hider you keep mentioning this countermicro on and on but fact is it doesnt really matter as long as ability itself is balanced and its easy to see how at least half the spells in bw are click and forget, so why its so bad for starbow to have them? You want to name how you countermicro stasis, maelstorm, feedback, mindcontrol, dweb vs turrets, blind, iradiate on targeted unit, lockdown, dark swarm, plague, broodling, ensnare, parasite...... ? Why did you mtention Dark Swarm. I wrote this in the last page: Dark Swarm has countermicro (except for Siege Tanks). That's FYI also why I am a big fan of faster unsieging for Siege Tanks (for both Sc2 and Starbow). I think siege-duration is important as it creates immobility, but there could be so many more improved unit interactions with 50% faster unsiege. Imagine, how much more "lame" the Lurker would be if it had a 3-4 second unburrow duration. IMO part of what makes the Lurker fun to use is it's unburrow/borruw duration is as fast as it possibly can without creating imbalances. Given that there have been discussions of buffing Siege Tanks anyway, I just feel that one should look at ways to make it more microrewarding at the same time. There are two ways Irradiate creates countermicro: - SV's moves closer to the zerg units, which makes it possble for the zerg to try to pick them of with Scourges (so there is an interesting interaction here). - Zerg can split his units vs Irradiate. Stasis also has countermicro in the way it impacts how the reinforcements (both races) are controlled. To the rest of your examples, yeh, they are boring abilities. In some ways, BW had an easier time getting away with boring/bad abilities due to no smartcast which made consisten usage of them more difficult. Abilities with smartcast on the other hand needs to have a much higher focus on counterbased micro. but fact is it doesnt really matter as long as ability itself is balanced Balance is the only thing that matters for abilities? I don't think you get alot of support from zerg players if you try and claim that Forcefields are fine. Most zergs hate to play vs it, exactly because it prevents any type of countermicro + comes from a core unit (note that if forcefields came from a rarely seen Tier 3 unit, the ability would still be poorly designed, but it would be much less criticised as it wouldn't be something we saw all day, and thus the design flaws wouldn't be obvious.) That's obviously taking your argumentation to the extreme, but I just wanted to point out that design matters much more than balance here. Balance is easily fixable by tweaking stats, getting design right is more challenging. But ofc noncounterbased abilities doesn't neccsasrily prevent micro from the enemy player. Sbow-Matrix doesn't do that, which IMO rather make it boring than "bad for gameplay". Shock, on the other hand does prevent micro as it in some situations isn't possible to pull back some injured units as they would not be able to escape due to the slow-effect. I dont understand you hider :/ you say darkswarm has countermicro, but all you do vs it is runaway because your army will get destroyed under it. for ex. marines vs zerglings. shhock is basically the same, except now you can make the decision to fight if you think you can. If the intention behind Shock-micro is to make it possible for enemy to run away, why does it slow down the enemy units? All that accomplishes is to make runaway micro less practical. Bascially your putting a penalty on players that try and micro here. For what cause? That's why I made this suggestion previously: - No slow effect - Projectile speed around 50% slower - Casting range = 10(maybe 11) - Shock radius around 25-40% larger - Prevents attacks/abilities of all units for X seconds. This way, it works vs HT's and Reavers and all battle units (so terran has an easier time surviving with bio vs templars without SV's). But it is better vs the slower units as they have a more difficult time escaping from the projectile speed (without warp prism at least) while more mobile units can more actively avoid it. When a unit get hits, it can escape from the battle due to the no-slow effect. Perhaps terran bio can still have a slow-effect in some way, but I think that should be put into a different situation (Not shock). I don't think it makes sense to mix slow-effect with the lack of ability to attack. Slow-effects should have the purpose of deincentivizing kiting and rewarding actual battles. Balance aside, this ability should have two types of countermicro; 1) Splitting vs the Shock projectile as it is much slower. This is also more rewarded as AOE is much larger which means the penalty for not splitting is higher. 2) Running away with Shocked units which is more practical due to no sloweffect. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
That's why we ended up with the one we now have. We are definitely willing to say it's still a bad ability but we would like to see it more in action first. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On July 22 2014 17:21 Xiphias wrote: We actually contemplated doing a similar version to the shock you describe at the end of your post there Hider, but it shut down tanks, and mech in general too hard if it disables attack completely. Not slowing down units has no implications for tanks in siege mode at all. That's why we ended up with the one we now have. We are definitely willing to say it's still a bad ability but we would like to see it more in action first. Good point there. My suggeston probably wouldn't work there. Regardless, I still don't know why Shock slows. It just doesn't really accomplish anything from my perspective. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
We wanted the spell to give map control and be able to catch small groups of units to change the tide of close to even fights One might argue though that if the opponent pulls back shocked units if there was no slow then those units are out of combat and hence the player who casted the shock will gain some advantage that way. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
Well one of the main arguments in the dev group to keep slow was that a good player could simply micro back the shocked units too easily and negate most of the damage done and if attack rate is just reduced (since we can't disable completely) then the spell would be too weak. This is where my design philsophy is completely the reverse. I believe in having high rewards for micro and focus on making it as practical as possible. There shuoldn't be any barrier to moving your units around as a response to an abillity/unit. Instead, what the dev-team is basically implying here is that if one player is good and micro and we give him the tools to be rewarded for his skills, then the game might be imbalanced, thus he must not have those tools. Imagine if Sc2 if it was balanced around banelings being much slower/lower splash and Marines not being able to split due to being movement-restricted, but instead just had to stand still and amove. Wouldn't the game be a ton worse? I believe in balancing the game around high potential for micro. If one player benefits a lot from micro, then give the other player tools to benefit from micro as well. We wanted the spell to give map control and be able to catch small groups of units to change the tide of close to even fights I don't this works as intended then. Because let's imagine the toss has lots of Dragoons in his army and little AOE. Army value against the terran bio/ghost player is similarly. In a straihgt up engagement the terran player easily wins here. But instead the protoss player can kite here and thus terran can't really engage without "preemptive" stims. Ghost Shock doens't accomplish anything here as it cannot catch kiting Dragoons. If on the other hand the protoss player chose to engage for just a second, he gets absolutely screwed over as his units become less cost effective (when shocked) and he cannot exit either. For that reason, he will only engage when he is certain that he has the superior army. Thus, we will see fewer actual battles. Why would we actually want to disencourage an enemy player retreating from the battle? Doesn't that just create snowball situations. Like you win the battle and then you also kill the rest of the small remainings of the protoss army as well due to them not being able to escape. Let's instead look at a succesful Starbow unit in the Mutalisk. The reason this unit works is becasue it can engage, kill a bit, and then retreat over and over. This has a high super high skill cap and the enemy can repositon his army to respond to it and/or improve his multitasking. | ||
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iknowFiRE
Slovenia37 Posts
On July 22 2014 17:08 Hider wrote: Balance is the only thing that matters for abilities? I don't think you get alot of support from zerg players if you try and claim that Forcefields are fine. Most zergs hate to play vs it, exactly because it prevents any type of countermicro + comes from a core unit (note that if forcefields came from a rarely seen Tier 3 unit, the ability would still be poorly designed, but it would be much less criticised as it wouldn't be something we saw all day, and thus the design flaws wouldn't be obvious.) yes ofcourse lots of spells could be improved and maybe should be i dont argue with that, there always room for improvement, i wanned to say in example of forcefields and fungal, that these abilities are badly designed and annoying to deal with, but with balance, they could be far less annoying, althrough still badly designed, thats what i wanned to say t1 unit with 50 energy unbreakable walls until t3 that the early game is designed around, or if they be taken the route of warpgates in starbow, say if they be available in t3 for 75 energy but maybe sentries would get amulet upg, wouldnt they be far less annoying then? even with the same design theyd just end up being like you describe similar to the more boring bw spells and not what they are currently in sc2, but yes ofcourse redesign woudl be better, like giving them hp or something else so if we get to shock, which may be not the best designed spell, what does it need to achieve anyway? its a replacement for lockdown and compared to lockdown it is quite frankly tame, it does have upsides but several downsides, doesnt prevent atacking and moving, but is aoe. lockdown never missed, so why should shock? all im questioning here is what exactly does it need to do and then they can design it so it performs that task, it doesnt matter if its a boring spell, it needs to allow bio to slow down mech and maybe tone down its power for a time. besides, sieged up tank kill ghosts at long range so theres the countermicro already present | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
protoss could just kote forever with dragoons if there wouldnt be a slow. terran would have constantly to stim to rarely catch a dragoon. But shock doens't prevent infinite kiting. That's basically what I have been trying to say the whole time. If anything, kiting is more rewarded since neither unstimmed Marines and Shock can hit Dragoons that kite it. All it does is to disencourage/prevent micro during the actual engagement. And if you wanted to have the slow-effect in the game in order to make it so that Dragoons would fight straight up with bio, why on earth does it then disable attacks? Dragoons already lose to bio in straight up engagements, so why they do you wanna make Ghost/Marine/medic even stronger in direct engagements vs Dragoons? Further, over time the protoss player will become less Dragoon heavy and get more Zealots/HT's/archons which makes kiting much less relevant. If Shock should have been something that made it possible to catch kiting Dragoons, and at the same time encouraged actual battles, then there would need to be the following diferences; 1) Dragoons in combats would not be nerfed in anyway when hit by Shock 2) Shock range increased, perhaps projectile even faster 3) Shock cost energy reduced to compensate. There are different types of solutions depending on what you wanna encourage, but right now it only encourages less micro during engagements + fewer engagements. so if we get to shock, which may be not the best designed spell, what does it need to achieve anyway? its a replacement for lockdown and compared to lockdown it is quite frankly tame, it does have upsides but several downsides, doesnt prevent atacking and moving, but is aoe. lockdown never missed, so why should shock? all im questioning here is what exactly does it need to do and then they can design it so it performs that task, it doesnt matter if its a boring spell, it needs to allow bio to slow down mech and maybe tone down its power for a time. besides, sieged up tank kill ghosts at long range so theres the countermicro already present Well, I think one should rather opt for spells that adds more micro + obtains the indended balance at the same time. As an example, let's go back to WOL. Assume Marines were very unresponsive when they first were in beta and banelings just hardcountered them. Balancewise there exists two solutions 1) Nerf banelings 2) Make Marines more responsive in order to make splitting micro practical The latter is IMO a much better solution. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
AND shock does prevent infinite kiting vs stimmed Marines: Before shock buff: Dragoon came in. killed stuff. Terran stimmed. only deals dmg to shields. Repeat. Now: dragoons come in, if terran reacts properly he gets a shock on goons. This time shock gets 3-4 dragoons which are really slow. Terran stims. gets 1-2 dragoons. Conclusion: shock does prevent infinite kiting. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On July 22 2014 18:06 404AlphaSquad wrote: Early game marines are bad vs protoss anyway. Early game tvp bio focusses much more around getting 4-5 reapers and ghosts and 1-2 medics for healing. Shock+reaper bombs is really good defensively and offensively. If you want to continue Bio play you add on Marines later. Stim is already upgraded if you get marines so your concern doesnt really matter unless you want already to be a threat to protoss before stim has finished, which I think is a mistake. Try and make a 2-based Marine/medic timing attack vs someone that goes pure Dragoons early game. You win easily here. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
You want to name how you countermicro stasis, maelstorm, feedback, mindcontrol, dweb vs turrets, blind, iradiate on targeted unit, lockdown, dark swarm, plague, broodling, ensnare, parasite...... ? Its not fair to just state these abilities like these: Medics had restoration in broodwar: Could dispel pretty much everything except statis and maybe something else. Plague=terran can dispell it, while protoss has shields and archon is "immune" to it since he have 99% shield. Every spell in broodwar had a "casttime". Meaning, if a unit moves and then you cast storm for example, it takes 0,5~ sec before he cast it. This was on every spellcaster in the game: SV, arbiter, hightemplar, queen - every spell behaved like this If the unit stood still and casted the spell, it was instant or close to instant. On top of this, broodwar had no smartcast, units didnt tight up as much and it was a "casttime". You mentioned statis: To use statis against zerg u need to statis high tech units which isnt the easiest, right? Its not like that you wanna statis 15zerglings cuz then that spell is ineffecient. While vs mech? Protoss needs statis to fight mech or else he is chanceless. So its a balance reason for it+high tech unit. And terran have emp and also even if its underused they have lockdown. Plenty of these strong spells are hightech units=slow buildtime which makes the enemy able to react towards it strategy wise. It also means there is alot harder to mass them and several of these strong spells had a high mana cost. Its not even comparable. So in starbow: There are no casttime except a few units such as the arbiter. Hightemplar dont have it, ghosts dont have it. There is no restoration, ensnare is buffed like insanely and this shock is ensanre version 2. protoss could just kote forever with dragoons if there wouldnt be a slow. terran would have constantly to stim to rarely catch a dragoon. Marines run in 3.14 Dragoons run in 2.75 Marines have 5range, dragoons 6. Are you sure you tested this? Btw dragoons do 5dps against light units. They are already so incredible bad, so you wanna add this shock to make dragoon...useless in direct fights? Terran doesnt need a slow effect at all. And there is no endless kite in starbow since sooner or later the terran will reach protoss base We actually contemplated doing a similar version to the shock you describe at the end of your post there Hider Did you try my idea? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
Marines run in 3.14 Dragoons run in 2.75 Marines have 5range, dragoons 6. Are you sure you tested this? Well he said the Marines would have to constantly stim in order to catch up, which is true, but Shock doesn't change that really. And I think it's also worth noting that there is a reason the protoss player chooses to kite. If he could fight straight up, he would do it, but Dragoons are simply too bad vs Marine/medic. I guess that's why it kinda makes sense for the Ghost if Shock had the following 4 effects: 1) Makes Dragoon kiting vs unstimmed Marines worse (slow-effect) 2) Reduces the strenght of the terran army as Ghosts are worse in battles than Marines 3) Doesn't have any effect on Dragoons combat-strenght 4) Makes the battle more fair when toss mix's in Reavers This way, we might actually see more Dragoon vs Marine/medic/ghost engagements without one side dominating the other. But ofc, one could discuss how signifcant the first point is. If terran sits in his base for the first 9 minutes or so and gets some medic's, they will have quite a lot of energy and he can afford to stim 2 times or so untill he reaches the protss players base. It's quite debateable whether Shock really is needed to "catch" Dragoons. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Well he said the Marines would have to constantly stim in order to catch up, which is true, but Shock doesn't change that really. He also said "rarely catch a dragoon" which aint true. Maybe you are right but i dont think its true. Terran will time when dragoons are trying to shoot->He stims moves as close as possible and attacks. Now goons will back off,. Marines can stay for a while, get healed and repeat. And its 5range for the marines with the upgrade. Its not fair looking at the early game when marines have 4range, the range doesnt come much later and if protoss doenst use the stalkers to harass the terran then its maybe possible to upgrade stim+range at the same time or atleast close in the opening. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On July 22 2014 18:21 Foxxan wrote: Maybe you are right but i dont think its true. Terran will time when dragoons are trying to shoot->He stims moves as close as possible and attacks. Now goons will back off,. Marines can stay for a while, get healed and repeat. And its 5range for the marines with the upgrade. Its not fair looking at the early game when marines have 4range, range doesnt come much later. Yeh, I don't really disagree that much here. I think sometimes when you try and kite with Goons, you will lose a Goon. Occationally that is worth it in order to force out a big stim. Other time it isn't - Depends on how much energy the medic has. Anyway, not really that relevant a discussion here. Point is more that current Shock doesn't solve anything. | ||
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O.P.
Sweden109 Posts
I'm wondering, is shock shutting down drop play too hard, or is it in a good place right now? | ||
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