On January 21 2014 04:39 HaRuHi wrote: Does anybody know why broodwar maps have so much unbuildable space?`And if we are to treat starbow as something else than broodwar sc2, why don't do the mapmakers the same and let us build where it looks buildable?
In BW there is a "rocky" tileset that is often used in the middle of the map which is unbuildable. If you're talking about on FS, right outside the ramp the terrain is rocky, presumably to prevent stupid building contains and bullshit - the rocky terrain in the middle also striped with rocky ground - I mean, I would assume this would signify battleground. Anyhow you can still place turrets if you're doing a tank push in TvP or playing TvT and the like. Maybe if you're having trouble differentiating unbuildable vs. buildable the mapmakers might consider making it more evident? Just a thought, I haven't had any problems so far.
It is not just FS, on circuit breaker the high towards the middle has the exact same textures like the main, but is not buildable. I am asking from a Zerg point of view, most times all textures look the same with creep on them and I can uproot my static D, but no place to root it again. :<
On January 21 2014 02:14 Piy wrote: Are you going to put the ability to Muta spread back into the game? Zerg has a hard time against mech when Terran can counter Mutas so efficiently. They can't adequately force goliaths since 2-3 vessels destroy a muta cloud in seconds because the mutas naturally bunch up.
This isn't a question of infinite selection, mutas are fine to deal with for terran regardless of Terran's composition, it's a question of zerg having a core unit in it's anti-mech composition back in the game. I think it would also solve a lot of the rage about Irradiate, which tbh I think probably is too strong in a mech composition right now as it effectively negates muta.
Is there a way to spread them I'm not seeing?
You need to make a tech transition once irradiate comes out, stop making mutalisks and start making lurkers/defilers.
This game involves around bio transitioning into mech Its different then from terran opening mech
On January 21 2014 02:14 Piy wrote: Are you going to put the ability to Muta spread back into the game? Zerg has a hard time against mech when Terran can counter Mutas so efficiently. They can't adequately force goliaths since 2-3 vessels destroy a muta cloud in seconds because the mutas naturally bunch up.
This isn't a question of infinite selection, mutas are fine to deal with for terran regardless of Terran's composition, it's a question of zerg having a core unit in it's anti-mech composition back in the game. I think it would also solve a lot of the rage about Irradiate, which tbh I think probably is too strong in a mech composition right now as it effectively negates muta.
Is there a way to spread them I'm not seeing?
You need to make a tech transition once irradiate comes out, stop making mutalisks and start making lurkers/defilers.
This game involves around bio transitioning into mech Its different then from terran opening mech
Yah, this guy didn't understand my point. When Terran opens mech zerg almost needs to go muta to force goliaths. At the very least its a solid option. Currently, Terran goes mech, gets a small number of goliaths and turrets, and then easily takes 3rd gas with vessel, many tank, goliath and mines.
In BW you could go muta vs this goliath light, tank/vessel army since you could spread the mutas and mitigate irradiate and have the opportunity to deny the Terran a third. If they were forced into a high goliath count by muta you could do a muta/hydra timing. This delayed Terran's third CC considerably and gave zerg a chance to establish 4th and even 5th bases. In Starbow irradiate is too cost effective against Muta since you can't pre emptively spread them going into the fight. They naturally clump together.
I might be missing something, but currently it seems very hard for zerg to effectively pressure a meching Terran, primarily because of the inability to spread Muta vs irradiate. Damage stacking and "imba" associated with the irradiate is mostly stupid whining, but this issue with muta clumps being annihilated by irradiate is problematic - I'm not seeing a strong solution for the zerg.
On January 21 2014 00:58 thezanursic wrote: Yeah because old BW players just jump at the idea of playing a BW-ish mod. Pretty sure it would be more likely for them to simply reinstall BW and play that.
Well - I can only speak for my own experience here, but this guy http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/KenZy beat me moments before the razer tournament and went on to claim victory until the quarterfinals. He didnt enjoy SC2 and stopped playing a while ago. So maybe they won't be coming back in legions of players. But some will be coming. Especially as soon as SB hits the asian grounds.
I especially like how you picked one point out of my whole text. I'm pleased you aggree with everything else said <3.
On January 21 2014 02:14 Piy wrote: Are you going to put the ability to Muta spread back into the game? Zerg has a hard time against mech when Terran can counter Mutas so efficiently. They can't adequately force goliaths since 2-3 vessels destroy a muta cloud in seconds because the mutas naturally bunch up.
This isn't a question of infinite selection, mutas are fine to deal with for terran regardless of Terran's composition, it's a question of zerg having a core unit in it's anti-mech composition back in the game. I think it would also solve a lot of the rage about Irradiate, which tbh I think probably is too strong in a mech composition right now as it effectively negates muta.
Is there a way to spread them I'm not seeing?
You need to make a tech transition once irradiate comes out, stop making mutalisks and start making lurkers/defilers.
This game involves around bio transitioning into mech Its different then from terran opening mech
Yah, this guy didn't understand my point. When Terran opens mech zerg almost needs to go muta to force goliaths. At the very least its a solid option. Currently, Terran goes mech, gets a small number of goliaths and turrets, and then easily takes 3rd gas with vessel, many tank, goliath and mines.
In BW you could go muta vs this goliath light, tank/vessel army since you could spread the mutas and mitigate irradiate and have the opportunity to deny the Terran a third. If they were forced into a high goliath count by muta you could do a muta/hydra timing. This delayed Terran's third CC considerably and gave zerg a chance to establish 4th and even 5th bases. In Starbow irradiate is too cost effective against Muta since you can't pre emptively spread them going into the fight. They naturally clump together.
I might be missing something, but currently it seems very hard for zerg to effectively pressure a meching Terran, primarily because of the inability to spread Muta vs irradiate. Damage stacking and "imba" associated with the irradiate is mostly stupid whining, but this issue with muta clumps being annihilated by irradiate is problematic - I'm not seeing a strong solution for the zerg.
Yeah i agree with you here, and we are discussing these sort of things. Also right now, spidermines if manual triggered can hit range hydras - which most likely is huge to
On January 21 2014 07:08 SCST wrote: Idra streaming Starbow now
i turned on to watch this, seems like idra is dominating beastyqt preatty easily. is this just a skill disparity? otherwise this game looks like normal SC2, with the foreigner terran control group controlling one army, getting it repeatedly destroyed by superior zerg macro and the game ending like they all do.
On January 21 2014 07:08 SCST wrote: Idra streaming Starbow now
i turned on to watch this, seems like idra is dominating beastyqt preatty easily. is this just a skill disparity? otherwise this game looks like normal SC2, with the foreigner terran control group controlling one army, getting it repeatedly destroyed by superior zerg macro and the game ending like they all do.
idra says "terran isn't supposed to beat zerg" (edit: now he says he doesn't know)
Idra is usually pretty good at predicting balance, but he can't possibly know how a future meta would look like, so I don't think the devs should worry yet.
He did say "tanks seem weak, maybe if they could deal with lurkers & banes better it would help bio". And he said he didn't want to encourage mech too much since he thinks it's boring maybe? And he says goliaths are weak too.
On January 21 2014 02:14 Piy wrote: Are you going to put the ability to Muta spread back into the game? Zerg has a hard time against mech when Terran can counter Mutas so efficiently. They can't adequately force goliaths since 2-3 vessels destroy a muta cloud in seconds because the mutas naturally bunch up.
This isn't a question of infinite selection, mutas are fine to deal with for terran regardless of Terran's composition, it's a question of zerg having a core unit in it's anti-mech composition back in the game. I think it would also solve a lot of the rage about Irradiate, which tbh I think probably is too strong in a mech composition right now as it effectively negates muta.
Is there a way to spread them I'm not seeing?
You need to make a tech transition once irradiate comes out, stop making mutalisks and start making lurkers/defilers.
This game involves around bio transitioning into mech Its different then from terran opening mech
Yah, this guy didn't understand my point. When Terran opens mech zerg almost needs to go muta to force goliaths. At the very least its a solid option. Currently, Terran goes mech, gets a small number of goliaths and turrets, and then easily takes 3rd gas with vessel, many tank, goliath and mines.
In BW you could go muta vs this goliath light, tank/vessel army since you could spread the mutas and mitigate irradiate and have the opportunity to deny the Terran a third. If they were forced into a high goliath count by muta you could do a muta/hydra timing. This delayed Terran's third CC considerably and gave zerg a chance to establish 4th and even 5th bases. In Starbow irradiate is too cost effective against Muta since you can't pre emptively spread them going into the fight. They naturally clump together.
I might be missing something, but currently it seems very hard for zerg to effectively pressure a meching Terran, primarily because of the inability to spread Muta vs irradiate. Damage stacking and "imba" associated with the irradiate is mostly stupid whining, but this issue with muta clumps being annihilated by irradiate is problematic - I'm not seeing a strong solution for the zerg.
If you watched the VOD carefully you would see my point. Jaedong opened muta, you even get irradiate faster when you go bio than if you go mech...
There's no difference between Starbow and BW in this aspect. Terran gets irradiate you stop making mutas. Period.
Pros never unclumped mutas in BW, ever... clumped mutas got irradiated all the time. It wasn't worth losing the control you get from muta stacking just to avoid irradiate, just fly around with 9-12 mutas and if they die you don't need to keep making them.
You don't need to deny the Terran 3rd, you just need to get map control and stop him from ever expanding after 3rd and abuse the immobility of Terran mech.
Forcing goliaths against Terran mech doesn't do a whole lot. If you go mutas, Terran has a timing attack where he can simply throw down 4 factories off 2 bases (+1 armor) and a-move pure goliaths into your base and you die. So going mutas isn't that useful anyway.
You need to rush hive and abuse defilers and skirt around his army with hydras while slowing his push down with lurker/swarm, and scourge his vessels. If he has no AA carpet bomb from overlord with lurkers/hydras/lings on top of all his tanks with swarm. Although at this level, he will probably just camp on his 3 bases while you can simply just get the rest of the map and beat him with pure attrition. You can also just cheese him hard if he tries to get 3rd base too early with mech and you scout mech early.
ZvT vs mech is balanced but considerably more demanding on the zerg side than terran which ends up being a bit abusive at the lower levels. At the higher levels opening mech is very risky but very powerful, which is why late-mech came into fashion.
Think he might have a point about Muta opening's though. Maybe missile turrets need something, or goliath's. Look what he just did to that Golitha/Viking/Turrent combo... straight up massacre with only Mutas.
I'm not really sure I like the design of vikings, I thought the dogfights between Wraiths and Muta+ Scourge of BW was awesome. The current ones feel unsatisfying to use.
On January 21 2014 08:16 Destructicon wrote: I'm not really sure I like the design of vikings, I thought the dogfights between Wraiths and Muta+ Scourge of BW was awesome. The current ones feel unsatisfying to use.
Wonder if Vikings need a movement buff of some kind, like something that's radically different than SC2. Lots of avenues for them to balance against mutas. They could change Goliath, Turrets or Vikings
Edit: Maybe a special ability for Vikings that works well against Mutas.. like a spell?
On January 21 2014 08:15 SCST wrote: Think he might have a point about Muta opening's though. Maybe missile turrets need something, or goliath's. Look what he just did to that Golitha/Viking/Turrent combo... straight up massacre with only Mutas.
mutas are really strong. you have to get irridiate sooner or later to deal with them. Maybe nerf the dps of irridiate. (same damage but over a longer period of time) and buff a little the viking splash ? Or wait and see how it plays out.
EDIT: I find it kind of interesting. Just realized: Starcraft 2: ground units clump, flyer spread Starbow: ground units spread, flyers clump
On January 21 2014 08:15 SCST wrote: Think he might have a point about Muta opening's though. Maybe missile turrets need something, or goliath's. Look what he just did to that Golitha/Viking/Turrent combo... straight up massacre with only Mutas.
mutas are really strong. you have to get irridiate sooner or later to deal with them. Maybe nerf the dps of irridiate. (same damage but over a longer period of time) and buff a little the viking splash ? Or wait and see how it plays out.
I think the splash is nice but it's easy to counter as BeastyQT and Idra just mentioned... Idra just let his Mutas un-clump and the Vikings became useless.
On January 21 2014 08:15 SCST wrote: Think he might have a point about Muta opening's though. Maybe missile turrets need something, or goliath's. Look what he just did to that Golitha/Viking/Turrent combo... straight up massacre with only Mutas.
mutas are really strong. you have to get irridiate sooner or later to deal with them. Maybe nerf the dps of irridiate. (same damage but over a longer period of time) and buff a little the viking splash ? Or wait and see how it plays out.
I think the splash is nice but it's easy to counter as BeastyQT and Idra just mentioned... Idra just let his Mutas un-clump and the Vikings became useless.
On January 21 2014 08:15 SCST wrote: Think he might have a point about Muta opening's though. Maybe missile turrets need something, or goliath's. Look what he just did to that Golitha/Viking/Turrent combo... straight up massacre with only Mutas.
mutas are really strong. you have to get irridiate sooner or later to deal with them. Maybe nerf the dps of irridiate. (same damage but over a longer period of time) and buff a little the viking splash ? Or wait and see how it plays out.
I think the splash is nice but it's easy to counter as BeastyQT and Idra just mentioned... Idra just let his Mutas un-clump and the Vikings became useless.
the engagement was really bad by the terran too.
Maybe, just seems that with everything BeastyQT had there those Mutas shouldn't have done so well even if it was simple A-move from both players. Beasty was eradicated and hardly any Mutas killed.
EPT
<3.
