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On December 22 2013 11:40 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:32 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 11:13 vthree wrote:On December 22 2013 11:04 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote:
Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about. This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design. It is true that you can't make everyone happy and there will always be people whining. But that doesn't mean patches shouldn't happen. Do we really want to go back to mass reapers or Protoss with K amulet? The reason you see more Terrans complain is because of the latest patch. Many Protoss didn't even think the oracle buff was needed, yet it went in to give oracles more 'mid game' usage. Basically Blizzard created relevation and really wanted it to be used. But the side effects were bad. It just shows that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction but they are too proud to admit it. There may be times when something is obviously out of whack. I don't know if mass Reaper was as imbalanced as it is now made to sound. I only started watching and playing SC2 a little after that, iirc. But, I would have liked Blizzard to have left the game alone for a while to see if players adapted instead of giving into an itchy nerf finger. The K amulet was imbalanced. Especially at at time when Protoss players had not even really begun to develop Templar-centric play styles. My point (for HOTS) was that after beta was done, the game should have been left alone for a while (but, then you get people asking for patches because the game is "stale"). IMO, constant patches and re-figuring the game and wading through the whine all gets exhausting. Especially when it is so repetitive. It must be a lot worse for pros. Easier to complain, I suppose. That's fine if the patches made sense though. What did the tank firing speed really do? Have we seen more mech play by that much in TvP/TvZ? (I mean, it happens but it's still by the same pros). The logic that the mine nerf was to promote tank/mine play in TvZ was just stupidity. Even now, mines are the things that dominate TvZ. Why would they increase oracle speed if Protoss already had a stupid good early game? To make mid game/late game viable? How often do we even see oracles in the mid/late game? I don't even remember any pro game that has oracles in the late game after the patch. The logic doesn't make sense and that's a huge problem for pro gamers. It's fine if you're a top tier player, who has superior mechanics, and a team that supports you for a long time. For the non-top tier players, patches that make no sense hurts the credibility of DK and the Blizzard balance team. Why would anyone want to dedicate time in their life to professionally play a game that could very well nerf or buff things on a whim?
You mean buff or nerf things on a whim against your own race, right? You're not going to tell me you'd be opposed to Blizzard buffing Terran on a whim to fix their early/late game at all levels of play, which is so ridiculously biased.
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On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance. That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not. That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
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On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance. That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not. That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have. Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. DK has pretty much always been hailed as the great destroyer of balance. Theres nothing to read into.
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On December 22 2013 11:43 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:40 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:32 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 11:13 vthree wrote:On December 22 2013 11:04 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote:
Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about. This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design. It is true that you can't make everyone happy and there will always be people whining. But that doesn't mean patches shouldn't happen. Do we really want to go back to mass reapers or Protoss with K amulet? The reason you see more Terrans complain is because of the latest patch. Many Protoss didn't even think the oracle buff was needed, yet it went in to give oracles more 'mid game' usage. Basically Blizzard created relevation and really wanted it to be used. But the side effects were bad. It just shows that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction but they are too proud to admit it. There may be times when something is obviously out of whack. I don't know if mass Reaper was as imbalanced as it is now made to sound. I only started watching and playing SC2 a little after that, iirc. But, I would have liked Blizzard to have left the game alone for a while to see if players adapted instead of giving into an itchy nerf finger. The K amulet was imbalanced. Especially at at time when Protoss players had not even really begun to develop Templar-centric play styles. My point (for HOTS) was that after beta was done, the game should have been left alone for a while (but, then you get people asking for patches because the game is "stale"). IMO, constant patches and re-figuring the game and wading through the whine all gets exhausting. Especially when it is so repetitive. It must be a lot worse for pros. Easier to complain, I suppose. That's fine if the patches made sense though. What did the tank firing speed really do? Have we seen more mech play by that much in TvP/TvZ? (I mean, it happens but it's still by the same pros). The logic that the mine nerf was to promote tank/mine play in TvZ was just stupidity. Even now, mines are the things that dominate TvZ. Why would they increase oracle speed if Protoss already had a stupid good early game? To make mid game/late game viable? How often do we even see oracles in the mid/late game? I don't even remember any pro game that has oracles in the late game after the patch. The logic doesn't make sense and that's a huge problem for pro gamers. It's fine if you're a top tier player, who has superior mechanics, and a team that supports you for a long time. For the non-top tier players, patches that make no sense hurts the credibility of DK and the Blizzard balance team. Why would anyone want to dedicate time in their life to professionally play a game that could very well nerf or buff things on a whim? You mean buff or nerf things on a whim against your own race, right? You're not going to tell me you'd be opposed to Blizzard buffing Terran on a whim to fix their early/late game at all levels of play, which is so ridiculously biased.
I would not mind a buff to Protoss to increase micro-bility of the race. I would love for Colossi to be a unit that's not an a-move unit so that it's actually fun to use and watch. Just like how a lot of Terrans complained about the Warhound being a horrible unit, despite it being stupidly overpowered and would win every Terran a lot more games - I want the game to be more fun to play and to watch for every race. What are some on a whim nerfs that Protoss has had in HoTS?
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On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance. That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not. That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have. Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell. Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
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On December 22 2013 11:27 Grouch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 10:46 pure.Wasted wrote:
I don't follow a lot of foreign SC, but I know a lot of BW's best foreign Terrans were Russians. Kas being a Russkie, this is sadder than it should be.
Kas is Ukranian.
Regardless, eastern Europeans are known to be excellent at video games. I wonder if Kas has ever played Quake; the Russians there could use some competition.
On December 22 2013 11:29 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:24 Beakyboo wrote:On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want No one said what? All I'm saying is you can point to ladder statistics and complain about the state of terran all day, but it's a fact that the top tier players are doing fine with the race and they make up perhaps a majority of tournament favorites still. Oracle patch might be stupid but that's been around for so little that surely no one's quitting the game over it. cause the state of early game Terran isn't good and hasn't ever been good since HoTS came out. The oracle patch did nothing to fundamentally change anything, but made the problem worse. It's much less about balance, and much more about the lack of options and fun that is TvP, or anything vs Protoss. Does anyone really like to face Protoss?
I'm sure there are a nice number of people who prefer the the hectic pace of a drop-focused strategy , or the surgical-dismantling of 200/200 blobs with ghosts, to the ungodly 1a spamfests that are Zerg matchups.
As for the choice of options, the only thing we can really do is beg Blizzard to look to the past for inspiration. Brood War's TvZ shows the genius of old Terran design, where the race was focused around their strategic versatility, rather than the power of spammable dropships. They have to make Mech work, and they have to replace the medivac. Who knows what words will sway them...
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On December 22 2013 11:12 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:07 Fusilero wrote:On December 22 2013 10:42 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2013 10:40 Shellshock wrote:On December 22 2013 10:39 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 10:35 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 10:31 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 22 2013 10:24 Zealously wrote:On December 22 2013 10:21 goody153 wrote:On December 22 2013 10:09 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did. lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once .. Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time? No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims? That's total BS. Flash wanted to play Protoss cause it fit his playstyle more. Isn't that what he said? or were you responding to the guy he quoted? I believe he was affirming that Snusmumriken's claim was total BS. On another note didn't bisu say the opposite, that he wanted to switch to terran but he decided to try to stay protoss for his fans. Just thought it could be put out there If i ask for a link, will i be forced to look it up myself, unless i accept this as fact?
If you really missed the whole Bisu should switch to Terran discussion on TL everytime Bisu played a SC2 match, then you probably don't care enough about this information anyway. But since it was around the Hellvac era I guess everyone considered switching to Terran.
Kas would have probably take some championships if he would have been put into a Korean team house. You really have to respect his ability to grind games. But EU Ladder or KR Ladder with lag isn't the best training environment.
Personally I am curious if Terran Bio gets a Mech killer unit with LotV, so they can buff Mech into oblivion and manage that Bio is still viable in TvT and Mech will become easier in the other matchups. Afterall most Mech nerfs were TvT related (Blue flame n Siege Tank damage) in order to make Bio viable in TvT and get away from Tank Viking. Never understood why Bio should be possible to play in 3 matchups, but if they wanna stick with it they might as well tinker with the matchup that prevents Mech buffs.
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So sad, Kas was an inspiration. True ladder beast.
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I'm sure there are a nice number of people who prefer the the hectic pace of a drop-focused strategy , or the surgical-dismantling of 200/200 blobs with ghosts, to the ungodly 1a spamfests that are Zerg matchups.
As for the choice of options, the only thing we can really do is beg Blizzard to look to the past for inspiration. Brood War's TvZ shows the genius of old Terran design, where the race was focused around their strategic versatility, rather than the power of spammable dropships. They have to make Mech work, and they have to nerf the medivac. Who knows what words will sway them...
I really just want some more logical decisions, and more units that aren't just MAKE THIS CAUSE IT'S A HARD COUNTER TO THIS OTHER UNIT. I don't even care at this point if it's better for one race or another.
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On December 22 2013 11:27 Grouch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 10:46 pure.Wasted wrote:
I don't follow a lot of foreign SC, but I know a lot of BW's best foreign Terrans were Russians. Kas being a Russkie, this is sadder than it should be.
Kas is Ukranian.
I don't mean to speak for all Ukrainians, but many of us self-identify as Russkies in a global context.  As someone else pointed out, in this case it was just shorthand for Eastern European.
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On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance. That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not. That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have. Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell. Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into. I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
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On December 22 2013 11:49 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:12 Yorbon wrote:On December 22 2013 11:07 Fusilero wrote:On December 22 2013 10:42 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2013 10:40 Shellshock wrote:On December 22 2013 10:39 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 10:35 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 10:31 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 22 2013 10:24 Zealously wrote:On December 22 2013 10:21 goody153 wrote:
[quote]
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once .. Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time? No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims? That's total BS. Flash wanted to play Protoss cause it fit his playstyle more. Isn't that what he said? or were you responding to the guy he quoted? I believe he was affirming that Snusmumriken's claim was total BS. On another note didn't bisu say the opposite, that he wanted to switch to terran but he decided to try to stay protoss for his fans. Just thought it could be put out there If i ask for a link, will i be forced to look it up myself, unless i accept this as fact? If you really missed the whole Bisu should switch to Terran discussion on TL everytime Bisu played a SC2 match, then you probably don't care enough about this information anyway. But since it was around the Hellvac era I guess everyone considered switching to Terran. Kas would have probably take some championships if he would have been put into a Korean team house. You really have to respect his ability to grind games. But EU Ladder or KR Ladder with lag isn't the best training environment. Personally I am curious if Terran Bio gets a Mech killer unit with LotV, so they can buff Mech into oblivion and manage that Bio is still viable in TvT and Mech will become easier in the other matchups. Afterall most Mech nerfs were TvT related (Blue flame n Siege Tank damage) in order to make Bio viable in TvT and get away from Tank Viking. Never understood why Bio should be possible to play in 3 matchups, but if they wanna stick with it they might as well tinker with the matchup that prevents Mech buffs.
don't worry with 1 or 2mech buffs bio will be relatively dead in TvT. And DK will claim it was to promote mech/tank usage vP and Z coz he's just a fking liar.
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My take on the protoss problem:
Protoss is, almost unarguably, the strongest lategame race. While they are contested by borehost/infestor/blord, the warpin ability combined with the power of laserballs can win against pretty much any composition if both sides are handled by equally skilled players. However, because of this huge advantage the later the game goes, the way that protoss was designed opposes how common sense says RTS races should operate. Instead of using options to obtain an advantage, the inherent advantage from the lategame capability means that protoss isn't designed around using options to get an advantage, but rather shutting down advantages of the other races. Forcefields, time warp, planetary nexus, and feedback are all, at an essential level, used to stop aggression or weaken it - early timings held off by ramp FF's, planetary nexus to neutralize drops, time warp can stop stim/speed timings, feedback to stop fungal/emp domination etc. So, as a Terran player, it becomes this ridiculous game because you can play your best but if the protoss player has enough of a brain to shut down drop harass and/or push timings, there is this inevitable sense that you're going to lose because they always have a better lategame army.
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On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance. That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not. That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have. Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell. Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into. I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans. Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's an absurd state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
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On December 22 2013 11:40 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:32 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 11:13 vthree wrote:On December 22 2013 11:04 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote:
Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about. This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design. It is true that you can't make everyone happy and there will always be people whining. But that doesn't mean patches shouldn't happen. Do we really want to go back to mass reapers or Protoss with K amulet? The reason you see more Terrans complain is because of the latest patch. Many Protoss didn't even think the oracle buff was needed, yet it went in to give oracles more 'mid game' usage. Basically Blizzard created relevation and really wanted it to be used. But the side effects were bad. It just shows that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction but they are too proud to admit it. There may be times when something is obviously out of whack. I don't know if mass Reaper was as imbalanced as it is now made to sound. I only started watching and playing SC2 a little after that, iirc. But, I would have liked Blizzard to have left the game alone for a while to see if players adapted instead of giving into an itchy nerf finger. The K amulet was imbalanced. Especially at at time when Protoss players had not even really begun to develop Templar-centric play styles. My point (for HOTS) was that after beta was done, the game should have been left alone for a while (but, then you get people asking for patches because the game is "stale"). IMO, constant patches and re-figuring the game and wading through the whine all gets exhausting. Especially when it is so repetitive. It must be a lot worse for pros. Easier to complain, I suppose. That's fine if the patches made sense though. What did the tank firing speed really do? Have we seen more mech play by that much in TvP/TvZ? (I mean, it happens but it's still by the same pros). The logic that the mine nerf was to promote tank/mine play in TvZ was just stupidity. Even now, mines are the things that dominate TvZ. Why would they increase oracle speed if Protoss already had a stupid good early game? To make mid game/late game viable? How often do we even see oracles in the mid/late game? I don't even remember any pro game that has oracles in the late game after the patch. The logic doesn't make sense and that's a huge problem for pro gamers. It's fine if you're a top tier player, who has superior mechanics, and a team that supports you for a long time. For the non-top tier players, patches that make no sense hurts the credibility of DK and the Blizzard balance team. Why would anyone want to dedicate time in their life to professionally play a game that could very well nerf or buff things on a whim?
It's funny you use tank firing example and mech, though. As Blizzard looked to mech as a result of community desire to have mech viable in TvP even if the match-up might not actually lead to BW-esque mech style, but more turtle Terran into a-move with preferred hard counter mech composition. A strong buff to Mech might not work out in the way people want it to, not just in the sense of a good spectator game, but also because combinations with bio might well be overpowered. Given that, I am not surprised they chose to take it very easy on the tank. IMO, the tank (and mech) should have been left alone.
As to the mine nerf, I thought it was because Z was whining so much about it? Unfortunately, one (perhaps unforeseen) consequence was that it neutered fast WM drops in TvP. But, I hope you get my point. And I agree with your last sentence.
Anyway, I'm going to do a mini-Kas and spent most of the rest of my Sunday laddering.
Ironically, I've gotten smashed by Terrans in my first two games. Heh.
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On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance. That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not. That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have. Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell. Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into. I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans. Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
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On December 22 2013 11:58 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance. That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not. That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have. Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell. Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into. I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans. Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea. And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever? Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance. That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not. That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have. Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell. Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into. I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans. Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion. sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
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On December 22 2013 11:58 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:40 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:32 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 11:13 vthree wrote:On December 22 2013 11:04 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote:
Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about. This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design. It is true that you can't make everyone happy and there will always be people whining. But that doesn't mean patches shouldn't happen. Do we really want to go back to mass reapers or Protoss with K amulet? The reason you see more Terrans complain is because of the latest patch. Many Protoss didn't even think the oracle buff was needed, yet it went in to give oracles more 'mid game' usage. Basically Blizzard created relevation and really wanted it to be used. But the side effects were bad. It just shows that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction but they are too proud to admit it. There may be times when something is obviously out of whack. I don't know if mass Reaper was as imbalanced as it is now made to sound. I only started watching and playing SC2 a little after that, iirc. But, I would have liked Blizzard to have left the game alone for a while to see if players adapted instead of giving into an itchy nerf finger. The K amulet was imbalanced. Especially at at time when Protoss players had not even really begun to develop Templar-centric play styles. My point (for HOTS) was that after beta was done, the game should have been left alone for a while (but, then you get people asking for patches because the game is "stale"). IMO, constant patches and re-figuring the game and wading through the whine all gets exhausting. Especially when it is so repetitive. It must be a lot worse for pros. Easier to complain, I suppose. That's fine if the patches made sense though. What did the tank firing speed really do? Have we seen more mech play by that much in TvP/TvZ? (I mean, it happens but it's still by the same pros). The logic that the mine nerf was to promote tank/mine play in TvZ was just stupidity. Even now, mines are the things that dominate TvZ. Why would they increase oracle speed if Protoss already had a stupid good early game? To make mid game/late game viable? How often do we even see oracles in the mid/late game? I don't even remember any pro game that has oracles in the late game after the patch. The logic doesn't make sense and that's a huge problem for pro gamers. It's fine if you're a top tier player, who has superior mechanics, and a team that supports you for a long time. For the non-top tier players, patches that make no sense hurts the credibility of DK and the Blizzard balance team. Why would anyone want to dedicate time in their life to professionally play a game that could very well nerf or buff things on a whim? It's funny you use tank firing example and mech, though. As Blizzard looked to mech as a result of community desire to have mech viable in TvP even if the match-up might not actually lead to BW-esque mech style, but more turtle Terran into a-move with preferred hard counter mech composition. A strong buff to Mech might not work out in the way people want it to, not just in the sense of a good spectator game, but also because combinations with bio might well be overpowered. Given that, I am not surprised they chose to take it very easy on the tank. IMO, the tank should have been left alone. As to the mine nerf, I thought it was because Z was whining so much about it? Unfortunately, one (perhaps unforeseen) consequence was that it neutered fast WM drops in TvP. But, I hope you get my point. And I agree with your last sentence. Anyway, I'm going to do a mini-Kas and spent most of the rest of my Sunday laddering.
I'm really not sure if buffing mech now is the best idea cause it's gonna be a big change, and might be better to be left for LotV. Though if they could make mech semi-viable now, and overhaul how Protoss works as a race for LotV, that might be good too.
The thing about the mine nerf is that after the Overseer buff, not really many pro Zergs whined, and the games really showed that. You though you saw Jaedong in the WCS S2 finals get raped by Bomber, he dramatically improved later on and had very good TvZ's. Most of the whining that I saw at least, was from people on the forums so I'm not sure why they changed it. They said to promote tank usage but that's been a huge failure thus far.
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On December 22 2013 12:00 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:58 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance. That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not. That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have. Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell. Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into. I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans. Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea. And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever? Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying? You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context. Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance. That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not. That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have. Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell. Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into. I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans. Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion. sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all? Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
the real question is why foreigner can have success with P/Z and not T.
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On December 22 2013 12:00 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:58 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance. That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not. That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have. Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell. Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into. I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans. Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea. And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever? Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying? You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context. Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance. That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not. That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have. Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell. Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into. I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans. Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion. sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all? Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What could possibly be the reasons behind that?
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EPT
