If this indeed means what we think it means, it's yet another big blow to the SC2 pro gaming scene. Kas was easily one of the best European Terrans ever in SC2.
Kas is the last Terran I thought would stop because of the works of David Kim and Co. Well such are the times, you either join the dark side or forever be overshadowed by it.
Going to miss him hope he continues to stream tho.
On December 22 2013 07:44 blade55555 wrote: Wait am I wrong but didn't he retire awhile ago?
Nope I think that's Beastyqt
That was Beasty, I miss him too .
I'm confused why he blames David Kim for HIS inability to succeed. It makes no sense to me.
what you're saying would make sense if there were literally any successful foreign terran players out there compared to foreign protoss/zerg players
but there aren't
i'm not balance whining because korean terrans are still succeeding, but terran is obviously a much more difficult race for foreigners than protoss and zerg is. so is it really kas' fault when nobody else who doesn't come from korea attains success with the race?
Pretty sure he won't retire. Like a lot of terran players (or non-Protoss players I'd say) he's tilted at the moment but he will take a break like everyone for Christmas and be back in the business for WCS. He's one Bo5 away from Premier League, it would be stupid to retire now.
On December 22 2013 07:51 zezamer wrote: theres a huge design flaw in sc2 which david kim has done nothing to fix, and wont
I mean he's mainly involved with balance, no? Is he actually able to design stuff himself? The impression I had was that he just balances out whatever the design team gives him to work with, could be wrong though.
agree with him that david kim realy destroy the game for terran player and he probably the main reason sc2 doing that bad ( why someone would tell he not the reason? he the guy behind the extreme balance of this game ??!!! )
he at fault, for exemple he the guy who buffed the queen before the era of the patch zerg when the matchup was 50 %....
honestly playing and talking with other pro gamer he do realy bad balance and most pro gamer could balance this game better....
On December 22 2013 07:48 Tobblish wrote: Kas is the last Terran I thought would stop because of the works of David Kim and Co. Well such are the times, you either join the dark side or forever be overshadowed by it.
Going to miss him hope he continues to stream tho.
Indeed gl to Kas in his future endeavors.
And Korean Terrans seem to be doing just fine. The game is a big deal at the highest level, I don't think David Kim and Co. need to balance it out for the non pros. Tho blaming everything but the player is common practice.
What is even more terrible about the scene is that there is still huge denial on Terran being underpowered. Most data show significant imbalance and individual examples also show imbalance. Balance kills the game more than anything.
It must be frustrating for a foreign terran though, so I feel for him. Heck even in Korea it's starting to be more protoss in the top lately.
On December 22 2013 08:01 Ammanas wrote: ^ what data?
Perhaps this?
http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ (it's looking reasonably balanced I'd say, but I'm quite convinced if you look at foreign terrans the picture won't be pretty. It's just my gut feeling though)
On December 22 2013 07:59 larse wrote: What is even more terrible about the scene is that there is still huge denial on Terran being underpowered. Most data show significant imbalance and individual examples also show imbalance. Balance kills the game more than anything.
No race is underpowered at this moment, protoss probably has a slight edge, but terran and zerg are both adequate at dealing with each other race
On December 22 2013 07:48 robert1005 wrote: All the hate on David Kim... I don't think it's all his fault for the small imbalances sc2 has sometimes.
Small imbalance? Really?
Foreign Terrans, yep. For Korean Terrans, not so much.
On December 22 2013 08:03 Bogeyman wrote: It must be frustrating for a foreign terran though, so I feel for him. Heck even in Korea it's starting to be more protoss in the top lately.
On December 22 2013 07:59 larse wrote: What is even more terrible about the scene is that there is still huge denial on Terran being underpowered. Most data show significant imbalance and individual examples also show imbalance. Balance kills the game more than anything.
Sooo true, this denial is getting ridiculous. It is not the community killing the game, it is the fucking gameplay. If one third of the playerbase is quitting it should be alerting but ppl will keep silent until it is too late...
his tweet is this: "Was think i will never say that. But i wont play this game anymore... I loved this game so much, i motivated more then any. Thx David Kim"
sounds more like a "i jus tlost to 5 protosses in a row" ladder run
Kas often is one to take to twitter to vent frustration about balance. Might not be something he stands behind come tomorrow, but if he is retiring best of luck to him.
It's not about balance, it's more that everything lies in hands of protoss players (combo of MSC+sentries allows for extreme defense and extreme offense in just a couple of seconds in both PvT and PvZ) and it's frustrating if it's almost your whole life to not be able to control it
Right, the use of yet more trivial data. Blizzard have their own "skill-adjusted" stats and their last communications appear to indicate that all is well balance wise. Pouring over aligulac and ladder numbers is a waste of time. Interesting, perhaps, if you have nothing better to do. But given that it appears to bear little relation to what Blizzard looks at, I struggle to see the point.
As these arguments on these numbers go on and on and on, it's like a TL circle jerk to a hairy obese ugly chick.
As to Kas, sorry to see him go, if he really is retiring rather than taking a break. GL to him in whatever he chooses to do.
On December 22 2013 08:11 Nerchio wrote: It's not about balance, it's more that everything lies in hands of protoss players (combo of MSC+sentries allows for extreme defense and extreme offense in just a couple of seconds in both PvT and PvZ) and it's frustrating if it's almost your whole life to not be able to control it
so basically what you are saying is that everything is OK. There were parts of the game where the difference was 70-30 for terran players (yes, the 1-1-1 era) and all that was said was 'Protoss need to learn to deal with it better'.
Now, if you are saying Protoss is slightly bit easier to play at the very very top then terran, I think it may be true (although neither of us will know, cause neither of us play T AND P at the highest of highest levels).
And if you are saying that forein terrans suck and they always sucked and they always will suck - well that's also true.
On December 22 2013 08:11 Nerchio wrote: It's not about balance, it's more that everything lies in hands of protoss players (combo of MSC+sentries allows for extreme defense and extreme offense in just a couple of seconds in both PvT and PvZ) and it's frustrating if it's almost your whole life to not be able to control it
Also, this man is very correct. But that has nothing to do with David Kim and everything to do with Dustin Browder.
On the serious note. I'm not sure if Kas will read this comment... If I get new job in January (chances are 80/20), I can provide 500 euros each month for you keep playing... please, contact me (PM) for more details...
On December 22 2013 07:59 Aquila- wrote: I hope Blizzard realizes the issues with the game soon and takes action before every single Terran has quit.
Or the people, whether it's Terran, Zerg or Protoss at the time, realize that their mindset is the problem, not the game. If you can't deal with admitting that you are the one who is at fault and should train harder or you realize it, but cannot commit the necessary time then yes, at some point Starcraft 2 is not the right game for you
On December 22 2013 07:59 Aquila- wrote: I hope Blizzard realizes the issues with the game soon and takes action before every single Terran has quit.
Or the people, whether it's Terran, Zerg or Protoss at the time, realize that their mindset is the problem, not the game.
It's not balance problem, it's a huge design problem. I hate the sc2 design since wol beta, i just dont like that 90% of all units (from your race) are available after ~8min and that we have at opening/earlygame alot more strategies than lategame.
Everytime I tune in to a stream, especially a terran one, I can see tons of flaws in the games that I see played. These european terran players in particular, I feel, can't admit that their mechanical shortcomings make them lose games they wouldn't have otherwise, so they find all sorts of excuses within the design of the game so that they don't have to look at themselves. At least it always feels like that to me.
The data is showing that T really is "sucking" badly at the moment...I personally think the issue is the game design as appose to the balance of the game (ie. strengh/hp of a unit). Terrans are very good if you are the select few that can achieve the highest skill cap. For the average person, this isn't attainable. The strategies are harder to execute due to the harass + macro nature of the race, defending against all-ins can be difficult due to the variety of them (specifically against toss), and the units are strong as paper in the late game when compared against the tech of Z/P. I think a lot of Terrans can agree, with 1 click from Z/P, it feels like you need 3 clicks to just remain even.
Long story short, I don't think the game will ever be "fixed". Even with the upcoming expansion, I highly doubt it. I love SC (played for 12 years!) but this feels like the lowest point which is quite sad. I hate to see pros quitting due to frustration with the game because they've invested so much time into this game.
Putting aside my Terran pride, watching the game isn't always that fun either. I really dislike watching ZvP due to the strategies most P utilize. Is it their fault for using a 2 base all-in constantly? No, it wins. That's their job. Do I roll my eyes every time I see that happening? Yup! Stream off. BW/LOL/DOTA Stream on!
Oh well, back to BW!
As for Kas, sorry to hear about the retirement. Best of luck in the future!
On December 22 2013 08:03 Bogeyman wrote: It must be frustrating for a foreign terran though, so I feel for him. Heck even in Korea it's starting to be more protoss in the top lately.
On December 22 2013 08:01 Ammanas wrote: ^ what data?
Perhaps this?
http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ (it's looking reasonably balanced I'd say, but I'm quite convinced if you look at foreign terrans the picture won't be pretty. It's just my gut feeling though)
That's quite an over-analysis of the data presented in that graph.
On December 22 2013 08:11 Nerchio wrote: It's not about balance, it's more that everything lies in hands of protoss players (combo of MSC+sentries allows for extreme defense and extreme offense in just a couple of seconds in both PvT and PvZ) and it's frustrating if it's almost your whole life to not be able to control it
Just wanted to highlight one of the few quality posts that are being dropped in this thread. It is not that much of a balance issue, but a gameplay issue.
Sad to see a hardworking and nice guy like Kas is considering quitting.
And lol, just lol @ all the guys here saying stuff like "terrans have bad mindset" etc. Yeah, cuz we all know that GM is 45% P and 22% T because protoss players just train so much harder and have better mindset. Open your eyes ffs
Godamn I was convinced he had one of the best pvts for a foreigner after demolishing Liquid Hero numerous times with his ghost viking control and now he retires. I guess laddering 50 games a day just isnt worth it. Kas is a good example of why hard working players wont ever surpass koreans.
This guy was an absolute machine. Sad to see him go. GL in the future.
On December 22 2013 07:59 Aquila- wrote: I hope Blizzard realizes the issues with the game soon and takes action before every single Terran has quit.
Or the people, whether it's Terran, Zerg or Protoss at the time, realize that their mindset is the problem, not the game.
It's not balance problem, it's a huge design problem. I hate the sc2 design since wol beta, i just dont like that 90% of all units (from your race) are available after ~8min and that we have at opening/earlygame alot more strategies than lategame.
Yet nothing wholes back Korean players from winning major events. Or Xenocider from crushing face in Korea. I wonder if they have a mindset problems?
On December 22 2013 08:11 Nerchio wrote: It's not about balance, it's more that everything lies in hands of protoss players (combo of MSC+sentries allows for extreme defense and extreme offense in just a couple of seconds in both PvT and PvZ) and it's frustrating if it's almost your whole life to not be able to control it
Thanks for the clear explanation. Let's hope they're considering changing this stuff on a deeper level in LotV. I'm sure they've thought about it countless times.
I haven't followed SC2 in ~7 or 9 months, but I remember that when I left, Zerg was the OP race. Now it seems to be Protoss? Holy shit, toss used to be the shittiest race at the time. I guess there will always be complaints no matter what.
On December 22 2013 08:18 IAmWithStupid wrote: Dramatic "Noooooo!..."
On the serious note. I'm not sure if Kas will read this comment... If I get new job in January (chances are 80/20), I can provide 500 euros each month for you keep playing... please, contact me (PM) for more details...
Sorry for spamming this post. I speak russian or english... Please, contact me! backstory: SC2 is a true passion for me, I was hoping to enter the scene through sponsoring a pro... we can negotiate the terms!
On December 22 2013 08:36 Let it Raine wrote: ..................
kas is one of the most hardworking players in the world, period.
i am saddened by this, he even gave me motivation in a game where I had bm'd him several times earlier.
I can't blame him though. Starcraft has been rewarding skill less players for far too long.
How can you even say that? Out of all the players in premier events this year, there are literally 0 who didn't deserve to win them. Or did Rain not deserve Hot6 Cup? sOs Blizzcon? Dear WCS Season 3? Maru KR Season 2? Bomber? Jaedong in Asus? Soulkey at WCG? herO at IEM? Who didn't deserve to win those tournaments? Are any of these players just bad? Worse then others? I personally don't think so...
On December 22 2013 08:41 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: just wondering when did Xeno start crushing face in korea?? which faces did he crush?? VODS??
crushing face in korea. lol.
it was a tournament in korea with about no korean in it vs Welmu in the final. i think there was some chinese guys in it, maybe mid level koreans as well.
On December 22 2013 08:21 Dingodile wrote: It's not balance problem, it's a huge design problem. I hate the sc2 design since wol beta, i just dont like that 90% of all units (from your race) are available after ~8min and that we have at opening/earlygame alot more strategies than lategame.
yea, wondered why all here thinks kas left because of balance. no, i think sc2 balance is acceptable (im main terran/random) but sc2 have huge design problems. * snowball effects everywhere * stupid economy with 80 workers for 200/200 * +1 base is huge difference lategame * 3 full bases cover every need * deathballing * poor ability to recover from lost main battle * main battles is most effective concept for fighting. u can harras, u can expand well, but if u lost main fight - u're pretty dead
and main - SC2 forces you to be passive. Sit and wait your 200-200, defend at 3 bases forever. Protoss - sit and wait 200-200 Zerg at TvZ - sit and wait T3 Terran mech - sit and wait 200-200 Terran bio is the only exception and thats why its so hard to fight vs toss with more mobile bio forces. game forces you to sit and wait.
On December 22 2013 08:32 Rickyvalle21 wrote: Kas is a good example of why hard working players wont ever surpass koreans.
..What? Koreans are better than foreigners because they worked harder for a longer amount of time... they don't have special blood that gives them +10 multitasks skills or anything.. Also koreans don't whine all the time, they stfu and practice and thats why they're better at starcraft. They got it.
Someone posted something really smart I think a few days ago. Something along the lines of, a cointoss is perfectly balanced. I really think that should be brought to David Kim. It just is really bad to have too many random elements in Sc2. It surely is great for balance, but it does not allow for good players to distinguish themselfes. I actually argue that it is the games design fault that Taeja did only win Five Major Tournaments and not all of them. Making oracles even faster? All ins that fail less punishing(Mothership)? I am actually glad that Hellbats and Widowsmines have been corrected in the right direction, and that fungal growth got fixed some long time ago. However, Toss need such a deep overhaul with Lotv, meanwhile they should really focus on not buffing the randomness of the race.
On December 22 2013 08:22 Heat_023 wrote: Everytime I tune in to a stream, especially a terran one, I can see tons of flaws in the games that I see played. These european terran players in particular, I feel, can't admit that their mechanical shortcomings make them lose games they wouldn't have otherwise, so they find all sorts of excuses within the design of the game so that they don't have to look at themselves. At least it always feels like that to me.
Yeah, because all those top foreign protoss are playing perfect mechanically... Look, if you look at each players games, you can always find some faults, even top players like Taeja, Dear and JD. But right now, small mistakes are more punishing for Terran compare to Protoss.
On December 22 2013 08:21 Dingodile wrote: It's not balance problem, it's a huge design problem. I hate the sc2 design since wol beta, i just dont like that 90% of all units (from your race) are available after ~8min and that we have at opening/earlygame alot more strategies than lategame.
yea, wondered why all here thinks kas left because of balance. no, i think sc2 balance is acceptable (im main terran/random) but sc2 have huge design problems. * snowball effects everywhere * stupid economy with 80 workers for 200/200 * +1 base is huge difference lategame * 3 full bases cover every need * deathballing * poor ability to recover from lost main battle * main battles is most effective concept for fighting. u can harras, u can expand well, but if u lost main fight - u're pretty dead
and main - SC2 forces you to be passive. Sit and wait your 200-200, defend at 3 bases forever. Protoss - sit and wait 200-200 Zerg at TvZ - sit and wait T3 Terran mech - sit and wait 200-200 Terran bio is the only exception and thats why its so hard to fight vs toss with more mobile bio forces. game forces you to sit and wait.
I wouldn't have watched the amount of Starcraft that I do if each game was simply people sitting and waiting for 200-200. That's explicitly not true.
On December 22 2013 07:48 Tobblish wrote: Kas is the last Terran I thought would stop because of the works of David Kim and Co. Well such are the times, you either join the dark side or forever be overshadowed by it.
Going to miss him hope he continues to stream tho.
Indeed gl to Kas in his future endeavors.
And Korean Terrans seem to be doing just fine. The game is a big deal at the highest level, I don't think David Kim and Co. need to balance it out for the non pros. Tho blaming everything but the player is common practice.
The Korean Terrans that I come up with are Taeja, Innovation and Jjakji after that it gets sort of dead, these ofc are Terrans that I know of that have a percentage above 60% in TvP. (bo3+)
After those easy choices it gets kinda hard, MMA had a good run at ATC but bo1's and against fellow teammates, Dream is another but he haven't really faced "super" opponents but nonetheless someone I really like. edit: and ofc Polt.
Maru is someone that a lot of people would say is doing fine but looking at the statistics he isn't, he's always going up against the "crem dala crem" and sitting around a even 50% winrate.
On December 22 2013 08:41 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: just wondering when did Xeno start crushing face in korea?? which faces did he crush?? VODS??
crushing face in korea. lol.
it was a tournament in korea with about no korean in it vs Welmu in the final. i think there was some chinese guys in it, maybe mid level koreans as well.
yeah I was just wondering if the guy claiming that on the previous page could back it up. made me lol too. the guy was probably one of those platinum tosses that dont want to have their free wins taken away.
edit: guy above me its ''crème de la crème'' now plz teach me how to say I like Peter Forsberg.
so stupid to flame blizzard as fault of the own inability ... i liked kas but after every lose he was so angry and come on ... alot other terrans did well didnt they ? of that "thanks" is really meant offensive its just bs
On December 22 2013 08:41 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: just wondering when did Xeno start crushing face in korea?? which faces did he crush?? VODS??
crushing face in korea. lol.
it was a tournament in korea with about no korean in it vs Welmu in the final. i think there was some chinese guys in it, maybe mid level koreans as well.
yeah I was just wondering if the guy claiming that on the previous page could back it up. made me lol too. the guy was probably one of those platinum tosses that dont want to have their free wins taken away.
edit: guy above me its ''crème de la crème'' now plz teach me how to say I like Peter Forsberg.
The point is the Xeno doesn't whine about Protoss, he works on beating them. His stream always says "Lets beat the Protoss together." Shockingly, he does well on stream because he doesn't whine and keeps a focused mindset.
On December 22 2013 08:41 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: just wondering when did Xeno start crushing face in korea?? which faces did he crush?? VODS??
crushing face in korea. lol.
it was a tournament in korea with about no korean in it vs Welmu in the final. i think there was some chinese guys in it, maybe mid level koreans as well.
yeah I was just wondering if the guy claiming that on the previous page could back it up. made me lol too. the guy was probably one of those platinum tosses that dont want to have their free wins taken away.
edit: guy above me its ''crème de la crème'' now plz teach me how to say I like Peter Forsberg.
The point is the Xeno doesn't whine about Protoss, he works on beating them. His stream always says "Lets beat the Protoss together." Shockingly, he does well on stream because he doesn't whine and keeps a focused mindset.
LOL
How could you mix ''crushing face in Korea'' with ''he keeps a positive mindset''?
What an awful tweet to retire on. To implicitly blame (what was probably) a lack of motivation at achieving higher success on David Kim is the epitome of arrogance. Politicizing his own retirement, why can't he just leave with dignity? Ok then Kas, seeya.
If im not mistaken he just played with his bar-code VS Grubby on stream and at the end said "What a joke" before leaving. Not sure if it's his barcode, but Grubby said it seemed like Kas from the way he spoke and played. I hope that game didn't tip him off, because it was quite a cool late game PvT with mass ghost/viking etc. I could be terribly mistaken.
On December 22 2013 08:41 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: just wondering when did Xeno start crushing face in korea?? which faces did he crush?? VODS??
crushing face in korea. lol.
it was a tournament in korea with about no korean in it vs Welmu in the final. i think there was some chinese guys in it, maybe mid level koreans as well.
yeah I was just wondering if the guy claiming that on the previous page could back it up. made me lol too. the guy was probably one of those platinum tosses that dont want to have their free wins taken away.
edit: guy above me its ''crème de la crème'' now plz teach me how to say I like Peter Forsberg.
The point is the Xeno doesn't whine about Protoss, he works on beating them. His stream always says "Lets beat the Protoss together." Shockingly, he does well on stream because he doesn't whine and keeps a focused mindset.
I remember seening some whiny comments from him every now and then but like a baller he deletes them. And I would guess little Limbo is young enough to cope with keeping a mindset that doesn't crack him apart. Time will tell...
On December 22 2013 08:24 RedMorning wrote: Putting aside my Terran pride, watching the game isn't always that fun either. I really dislike watching ZvP due to the strategies most P utilize. Is it their fault for using a 2 base all-in constantly? No, it wins. That's their job. Do I roll my eyes every time I see that happening? Yup! Stream off. BW/LOL/DOTA Stream on!
Guess what, different people enjoy different things. One of SC2's strenghts is that the matchups are different. I've always liked PvZ more than the other matchups, and I enjoy PvP a lot, too.
On December 22 2013 07:59 Aquila- wrote: I hope Blizzard realizes the issues with the game soon and takes action before every single Terran has quit.
Or the people, whether it's Terran, Zerg or Protoss at the time, realize that their mindset is the problem, not the game. If you can't deal with admitting that you are the one who is at fault and should train harder or you realize it, but cannot commit the necessary time then yes, at some point Starcraft 2 is not the right game for you
Shut up you clueless noob. You are nobody to shit on the amount of practice and hard work Kas has put into the game. And nobody should tell him what he should or shouldn't say. If he feels the game is unfair his reasons to think so are a thousand times worthy of more respect than your clueless shitty opinions on this forum. And this applies to every similar post I've read in this thread. It's his choice. He is a great player. He is a great person. He worked hard and was one of the most positive terran players, even in the patchzerg era. If anybody deserves respect in this community it's him. So shut up with the idiotic comments. Thank you.
On December 22 2013 08:41 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: just wondering when did Xeno start crushing face in korea?? which faces did he crush?? VODS??
crushing face in korea. lol.
it was a tournament in korea with about no korean in it vs Welmu in the final. i think there was some chinese guys in it, maybe mid level koreans as well.
yeah I was just wondering if the guy claiming that on the previous page could back it up. made me lol too. the guy was probably one of those platinum tosses that dont want to have their free wins taken away.
edit: guy above me its ''crème de la crème'' now plz teach me how to say I like Peter Forsberg.
The point is the Xeno doesn't whine about Protoss, he works on beating them. His stream always says "Lets beat the Protoss together." Shockingly, he does well on stream because he doesn't whine and keeps a focused mindset.
He does so well on stream that he gets crushed by mid-upper level foreign Protoss players. He got smashed by Grubby so hard on stream in a long macro game that ended with Grubby having a bank of almost 10k/10k and Xeno losing his entire army.
I don't understand this rage retirement. Why don't he just take a break. Try some new methods of reset his way of thinking about the game. Meditate, watch some VOD's from Jjakij or Polt, try to figure his weaknesses and specifically practice on improving that, mess around with new strats, or play Protoss. The problem isn't balance, it's really the design. To tweet blaming your retirement due to balance issues is immature attitude
On December 22 2013 07:59 Aquila- wrote: I hope Blizzard realizes the issues with the game soon and takes action before every single Terran has quit.
Or the people, whether it's Terran, Zerg or Protoss at the time, realize that their mindset is the problem, not the game. If you can't deal with admitting that you are the one who is at fault and should train harder or you realize it, but cannot commit the necessary time then yes, at some point Starcraft 2 is not the right game for you
Shut up you clueless noob. You are nobody to shit on the amount of practice and hard work Kas has put into the game. And nobody should tell him what he should or shouldn't say. If he feels the game is unfair his reasons to think so are a thousand times worthy of more respect than your clueless shitty opinions on this forum. And this applies to every similar post I've read in this thread. It's his choice. He is a great player. He is a great person. He worked hard and was one of the most positive terran players, even in the patchzerg era. If anybody deserves respect in this community it's him. So shut up with the idiotic comments. Thank you.
I agree so much. I very rarely use this term but this thread has so many backseat gamers who shit on Kas as if he's being arrogant or lazy. You guys have no idea what you're talking about, balance/design aside.
On December 22 2013 09:56 Jono7272 wrote: Kas One of the hardest working foreigners!
Yes, he was. But, I think he was also a good example of practice isn't enough. Enough to make it to the highest of amateur levels or a middling pro level, maybe. But to go higher, you need more. Kas did not appear to have it or know how to get it.
As to his tweet. Yes, it is a graceless and classless way to go out (if that is indeed what he is doing other than having a hissy fit). But, meh. Kas has not been really relevant in HOTS. Hopefully, DK caught that tweet and had a good long chuckle.
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
you realize this is a public forum right? Pro's make these tweets knowing people will criticize/discuss them. I don't think I need you to tell me what I can and can't say, that's what mods are for.
I love all these people claiming that kas hasn't been relevant for a long time - he's as relevant as a foreign terran can be. Hell, he 2-0'd Hyun, 3-1'd Burning, and went 1-2 against Innovation just this month. He and Happy are literally the only foreign terrans that have good recent results, esp. against koreans....
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
"I think RTS isn’t the right type of game for people who quit because they get frustrated."
This from Dear. It's funny because it's both right and wrong. If you get frustrated too much, then you start to lose hope. But if you don't care about losing, then you won't have the sufficient drive to do the things that are needed to start not losing.
I've always respected Kas's work ethic and insane dedication to practise, but this is no way to retire. I've seen other players, both in Starcraft and in other games and sports, tough it out when things don't work out for them and eventually come back, often stronger than they were before their rough patch. If Kas feels that he is done with Starcraft, then I'd like to thank him for the games he's played in tournaments the last few years (and also his contagious smile), but I'll always lose a certain amount of respect for someone who chooses to go out like this, their last act as a professional to complain about the game they're playing.
Not entirely sure if it's true, moreover he already tweeted that he's going to switch to Protoss few times and nothing happened. Basicly I think he was frustrated due to some recent losses, he's not in peak of form for a long time, I'm going to ask him tomorrow if this "statement" is real or it's not.
Overall, imo he was stronger in WOL days, atleast 3rd place at WCG beating MKP at his good shape was pretty high international record.
seriously, even if we agree that T is UP (which it isn't btw). What if they buff them? What then? Can you imagine people like Taeja or Maru or Innovation after a buff to terran? They would be completely and utterly unbeatable, just like Inno already showed once before the hellbat nerf. Hell, they are almost unbeatable already! And do you really believe that they are just straight up better players then any other race players? Would you all be ready to get back to GOMTvT era?
On December 22 2013 10:07 GTPGlitch wrote: I love all these people claiming that kas hasn't been relevant for a long time - he's as relevant as a foreign terran can be. Hell, he 2-0'd Hyun, 3-1'd Burning, and went 1-2 against Innovation just this month. He and Happy are literally the only foreign terrans that have good recent results, esp. against koreans....
So in what respect are their results so much better than that of Bunny, Dayshi and Heromarine that you can claim that they are "literally the only foreign terrans with good results"?
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
On December 22 2013 10:18 Ammanas wrote: seriously, even if we agree that T is UP (which it isn't btw). What if they buff them? What then? Can you imagine people like Taeja or Maru or Innovation after a buff to terran? They would be completely and utterly unbeatable, just like Inno already showed once before the hellbat nerf. Hell, they are almost unbeatable already! And do you really believe that they are just straight up better players then any other race players?
You really don't know that. There's no way to tell how a balance change will affect the game. First's PvT looked stronger back in OSL when no protoss could beat a terran except Rain and him. Just because you buff say, thors, or one of the useless units of terran, doesn't mean that the people who are doing fine with other units are going to do better.
On December 22 2013 10:07 GTPGlitch wrote: I love all these people claiming that kas hasn't been relevant for a long time - he's as relevant as a foreign terran can be. Hell, he 2-0'd Hyun, 3-1'd Burning, and went 1-2 against Innovation just this month. He and Happy are literally the only foreign terrans that have good recent results, esp. against koreans....
So in what respect are their results so much better than that of Bunny, Dayshi and Heromarine that you can claim that they are "literally the only foreign terrans with good results"?
Heromarine was raping everyone this past few months but of course only to some koreans and most europeans.
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
On December 22 2013 10:12 Nebuchad wrote: "I think RTS isn’t the right type of game for people who quit because they get frustrated."
This from Dear. It's funny because it's both right and wrong. If you get frustrated too much, then you start to lose hope. But if you don't care about losing, then you won't have the sufficient drive to do the things that are needed to start not losing.
Kas plays 30 games a day for 3 years. he is talented. even koreans would get frustrated at some point.
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
Didn't he say that because of lack of strategic choices terran has ? Mkp said the same thing as i remember when he said he got bored of sc2.
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
Didn't he say that because of lack of strategic choices terran has ? Mkp said the same thing as i remember when he said he got bored of sc2.
MKP was a bit of a spaz and the king of "poor decision making". I loved the little guy and cheered for him every time because he had heart, but I was not shocked when he moved to LoL. He had not won anything in a while and he was slowly becoming old news.
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol I also disagree strongly with your sentiment. If no one stands up to David Kim and says enough is fucking enough, well have the same broodlord infestor bullshit that went on for a year, all while we kept hearing "its fine guys". Im with you Kas. Ive stopped playing the game too (im only master terran so no pro lol).
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
On December 22 2013 10:07 GTPGlitch wrote: I love all these people claiming that kas hasn't been relevant for a long time - he's as relevant as a foreign terran can be. Hell, he 2-0'd Hyun, 3-1'd Burning, and went 1-2 against Innovation just this month. He and Happy are literally the only foreign terrans that have good recent results, esp. against koreans....
"As relevant as a foreign terran can be" really isn't relevant enough . I'm surprised more pro-gamers aren't retiring. I could think of a dozen who haven't posted any meaningful results in a long time but I wouldn't want to name them. I guess their teams still pay them a decent salary for some reason and as long as they have that they can continue to enjoy playing (assuming they actually enjoy playing).
At some point though, if things keep going this way I would be surprised to see any foreigner teams (with *actual* foreigners) remaining after a year or so. But then again I'm pretty surprised there are so many foreigners still playing.
This isn't the way to go out but it's perfectly understandable
Imagine it from Kas's point of view
One of the top foreign Terrans, no one ever gives them any respect HoTS comes out. Terrans do well, especially TvZ. Maybe he has a chance. He practices 30+ games a day, everyday MU's start to get evened out, Zergs learn how to deal with mines, no longer an easy win now Protoss learn how to abuse the MSC, early game timings don't really work anymore He still keeps playing Buffs after buffs for other races, nerfs for Terran (warranted? who knows). Overseer buff makes TvZ much more manageable for Zerg. Very even and skill based MU, despite it being very similar from game to game. TvP is still frustratingly hard cause of the lack of options. Probably is thinking he should go and innovate cause that's what forum heroes are telling him. DK posts - "Hey, we're going to nerf mines, increase the power of the Protoss early game, and give Terran some stuff that no one asked for, tanks can fire faster!!!" - gives logic that makes no sense whatsoever and everyone knows how hard the patch will fall on its face. Blizzcon: DK says casuals can't understand what micro looks like, will focus on making replicator for LotV cause that's the real issue with the game.
Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
That's total BS. Flash wanted to play Protoss cause it fit his playstyle more.
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
That's total BS. Flash wanted to play Protoss cause it fit his playstyle more.
Isn't that what he said? or were you responding to the guy he quoted?
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
That's total BS. Flash wanted to play Protoss cause it fit his playstyle more.
Isn't that what he said? or were you responding to the guy he quoted?
I believe he was affirming that Snusmumriken's claim was total BS.
I don't follow a lot of foreign SC, but I know a lot of BW's best foreign Terrans were Russians. Kas being a Russkie, this is sadder than it should be.
On December 22 2013 10:18 Ammanas wrote:And do you really believe that they are just straight up better players then any other race players?
Yes. When Protoss takes the same level of multitasking game in and game out and their pros are still able to deliver consistent results the way Inno, Taeja, Bomber, and Maru do, then I'll say Protoss pros are on the exact same level. Until then -- color me not terribly impressed. It's not their fault the race doesn't encourage that kind of play so strongly, but it doesn't mean I have to get overhyped about the amount of skill it takes to Psi Storm a bioball, which is basically the same amount of skill it used to take to Fungal a bioball, which everyone agreed was very, very little.
The most impressive micro/multitasking tricks a Protoss has to pull off are Feedback - which is a little bit more impressive than Snipe, because they have to use it to counter drops - and in 1/10 games, Stalker blink micro, which is the same as the kind of splitting every single Terran has to do in every single game against Zerg ever. If the Protoss is Rain or First, they might be into Zealot warp ins, too. I get excited about Zealot warp ins. That's how much multitasking Protoss takes. I get genuinely excited about seeing Zealot warp ins.
Zerg who can consistently go toe-to-toe with Terrans in macro slugfests are bad-asses, though, there's no denying that. DRG, Life, Jaedong. Can't remember if Soulkey ever did a particularly impressive macro series. He beat Inno with mostly cheese, and he got dismantled by Maru in WCG KR. Neither Bomber nor Maru really pushed him to his limits at Asus Rog since they both favored mech. I could certainly be forgetting something.
On December 22 2013 10:18 Ammanas wrote:And do you really believe that they are just straight up better players then any other race players?
Yes. When Protoss takes the same level of multitasking game in and game out and their pros are still able to deliver consistent results the way Inno, Taeja, Bomber, and Maru do, then I'll say Protoss pros are on the exact same level. Until then -- color me not terribly impressed. It's not their fault the race doesn't encourage that kind of play so strongly, but it doesn't mean I have to get overhyped about the amount of skill it takes to Psi Storm a bioball, which is basically the same amount of skill it used to take to Fungal a bioball, which everyone agreed was very, very little.
The most impressive micro/multitasking tricks a Protoss has to pull off are Feedback - which is a little bit more impressive than Snipe, because they have to use it to counter drops - and in 1/10 games, Stalker blink micro, which is the same as the kind of splitting every single Terran has to do in every single game against Zerg ever. If the Protoss is Rain or First, they might be into Zealot warp ins, too. I get excited about Zealot warp ins. That's how much multitasking Protoss takes. I get genuinely excited about seeing Zealot warp ins.
Zerg who can consistently go toe-to-toe with Terrans in macro slugfests are bad-asses, though, there's no denying that. DRG, Life, Jaedong. Can't remember if Soulkey ever did a particularly impressive macro series. He beat Inno with mostly cheese, and he got dismantled by Maru in WCG KR. Neither Bomber nor Maru really pushed him to his limits at Asus Rog since they both favored mech. I could certainly be forgetting something.
I don't remember the more recent games when Soulkey vs Innovation, but way back at the start of the year, Innovation was really just that good. I think people forgot how dominating he was against Zerg, and that was before Zergs really figured out how to abuse and avoid mines.
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
Actually its not bs at all. If you look at interviews from when he had recently started playing sc2 professionally, he said protoss was op in many ways in his opinion. Later on he said he "regretted not choosing protoss (something he considered)" when he switched. While he may no longer consider protoss op and that it just fits hist style more, he referred back to a time in which he did consider the race op.
I'm curious- is there anybody here that was around the early days of the Brood War era, that saw a race be considered OP for some time, before the other race(s) caught on? I don't know how dominant 3 Hatch Muta actually was in its early days, but I've heard some hyperbole about it having been unbeatable.
On December 22 2013 10:46 pure.Wasted wrote: I don't follow a lot of foreign SC, but I know a lot of BW's best foreign Terrans were Russians. Kas being a Russkie, this is sadder than it should be.
On December 22 2013 10:18 Ammanas wrote:And do you really believe that they are just straight up better players then any other race players?
Yes. When Protoss takes the same level of multitasking game in and game out and their pros are still able to deliver consistent results the way Inno, Taeja, Bomber, and Maru do, then I'll say Protoss pros are on the exact same level. Until then -- color me not terribly impressed. It's not their fault the race doesn't encourage that kind of play so strongly, but it doesn't mean I have to get overhyped about the amount of skill it takes to Psi Storm a bioball, which is basically the same amount of skill it used to take to Fungal a bioball, which everyone agreed was very, very little.
The most impressive micro/multitasking tricks a Protoss has to pull off are Feedback - which is a little bit more impressive than Snipe, because they have to use it to counter drops - and in 1/10 games, Stalker blink micro, which is the same as the kind of splitting every single Terran has to do in every single game against Zerg ever. If the Protoss is Rain or First, they might be into Zealot warp ins, too. I get excited about Zealot warp ins. That's how much multitasking Protoss takes. I get genuinely excited about seeing Zealot warp ins.
Zerg who can consistently go toe-to-toe with Terrans in macro slugfests are bad-asses, though, there's no denying that. DRG, Life, Jaedong. Can't remember if Soulkey ever did a particularly impressive macro series. He beat Inno with mostly cheese, and he got dismantled by Maru in WCG KR. Neither Bomber nor Maru really pushed him to his limits at Asus Rog since they both favored mech. I could certainly be forgetting something.
so we are basically back 2 years ago, still with the same argument:
'all protoss are scrubs who don't know how to play and the only reason terran master race is actually losing is because they are severely underpowered.'
Oh, but instead of 'they should learn to play' at the end, now people mostly add 'It's not their fault the race is stupid'.
Basically Idra level - apologize for playing that race.
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
Actually its not bs at all. If you look at interviews from when he had recently started playing sc2 professionally, he said protoss was op in many ways in his opinion. Later on he said he "regretted not choosing protoss (something he considered)" when he switched. While he may no longer consider protoss op and that it just fits hist style more, he referred back to a time in which he did consider the race op.
Can you provide a link to that interview like people requested? Because I read it and he didn't say that at all from what I remember.
On December 22 2013 07:44 blade55555 wrote: Wait am I wrong but didn't he retire awhile ago?
Nope I think that's Beastyqt
Indeed it was. Craziest part about Kas is a year ago, more or less, he was considered to be the world's best Non-Korean Terran. With the RSL he faced off against leenock (considered the strongest Korean player and the strongest zerg in the world) in a Best of 9 series that made it to the final game, and I believe he (Kas) lost the final game. I was casting in Chinese, so that's how I remember. (
On December 22 2013 10:53 Ammanas wrote: so we are basically back 2 years ago, still with the same argument:
'all protoss are scrubs who don't know how to play and the only reason terran master race is actually losing is because they are severely underpowered.'
Oh, but instead of 'they should learn to play' at the end, now people mostly add 'It's not their fault the race is stupid'.
Basically Idra level - apologize for playing that race.
...nice
There's a big difference between Idra level whine and the problems with TvP now. If you go to TheDwf's posting history and check his posts, he links and references a lot of pro games that show the limited option that Terran has in the early game to Protoss, which can spiral out of control.
Idra complained about everything, even when it was infestor/broodlord and every other zerg was having success.
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
Actually its not bs at all. If you look at interviews from when he had recently started playing sc2 professionally, he said protoss was op in many ways in his opinion. Later on he said he "regretted not choosing protoss (something he considered)" when he switched. While he may no longer consider protoss op and that it just fits hist style more, he referred back to a time in which he did consider the race op.
Pros call other races OP all the time. There is nothing special about that. What I was, and still am, calling BS is your statements about Flash calling FF and WG being OP etc, and he wanted to switch because he thought Protoss was OP and not because he thought he suited his defensive play style. Sounds to me like you don't remember the interview well (if we are speaking of the same one a couple of months ago) and are putting your words into his mouth.
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
Actually its not bs at all. If you look at interviews from when he had recently started playing sc2 professionally, he said protoss was op in many ways in his opinion. Later on he said he "regretted not choosing protoss (something he considered)" when he switched. While he may no longer consider protoss op and that it just fits hist style more, he referred back to a time in which he did consider the race op.
Can you provide a link to that interview like people requested? Because I read it and he didn't say that at all from what I remember.
Look it up yourself. If you disagree then im obviously right ^^
On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote: Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about.
This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design.
Honestly, I think fixing the game won’t satisfy everyone anyway. Hmm. So I think the key is to not get stressed too much. Let’s play with an optimistic mind. This is my answer ㅋㅋㅋ. Even I’m getting stressed at PvP these days. I’ve changed my mindset to “if it’s not going to be patched anyway, I’ll try to find the answer myself”. ㅋㅋ.
Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
Actually its not bs at all. If you look at interviews from when he had recently started playing sc2 professionally, he said protoss was op in many ways in his opinion. Later on he said he "regretted not choosing protoss (something he considered)" when he switched. While he may no longer consider protoss op and that it just fits hist style more, he referred back to a time in which he did consider the race op.
Pros call other races OP all the time. There is nothing special about that. What I was, and still am, calling BS is your statements about Flash calling FF and WG being OP etc, and he wanted to switch because he thought Protoss was OP and not because he thought he suited his defensive play style. Sounds to me like you don't remember the interview well (if we are speaking of the same one a couple of months ago) and are putting words into his mouth.
Yes and in those interviews he said he considered switching to protoss when he STARTED his sc2 career and that he partly regretted it. And if we look at interviews from when he STARTED his sc2 career... you get the picture. I never said he called protoss op a few months ago.
On December 22 2013 10:01 NovemberstOrm wrote: [quote] Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
Actually its not bs at all. If you look at interviews from when he had recently started playing sc2 professionally, he said protoss was op in many ways in his opinion. Later on he said he "regretted not choosing protoss (something he considered)" when he switched. While he may no longer consider protoss op and that it just fits hist style more, he referred back to a time in which he did consider the race op.
Can you provide a link to that interview like people requested? Because I read it and he didn't say that at all from what I remember.
Look it up yourself. If you disagree then im obviously right ^^
That is however not how the world spins. I could call you for being green monkey who eats red bananas. Then that is not true until you prove me wrong, it is false until I prove it right.
You cant claim that someone has said something and then argue it being true until someone proves it false. Just stupid logic.
On December 22 2013 10:01 NovemberstOrm wrote: [quote] Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
Actually its not bs at all. If you look at interviews from when he had recently started playing sc2 professionally, he said protoss was op in many ways in his opinion. Later on he said he "regretted not choosing protoss (something he considered)" when he switched. While he may no longer consider protoss op and that it just fits hist style more, he referred back to a time in which he did consider the race op.
Pros call other races OP all the time. There is nothing special about that. What I was, and still am, calling BS is your statements about Flash calling FF and WG being OP etc, and he wanted to switch because he thought Protoss was OP and not because he thought he suited his defensive play style. Sounds to me like you don't remember the interview well (if we are speaking of the same one a couple of months ago) and are putting words into his mouth.
Yes and in those interviews he said he considered switching to protoss when he STARTED his sc2 career and that he partly regretted it. And if we look at interviews from when he STARTED his sc2 career... you get the picture. I never said he called protoss op a few months ago.
No, I don't get the picture. But, I am satisfied you are talking out of your arse. Thanks.
On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote: Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about.
This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design.
imo just terran needs a buff to their options, therefore making mech viable
On December 22 2013 10:01 NovemberstOrm wrote: [quote] Source From a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this.
Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors.
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is about the worst way to go out.
I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
That's total BS. Flash wanted to play Protoss cause it fit his playstyle more.
Isn't that what he said? or were you responding to the guy he quoted?
I believe he was affirming that Snusmumriken's claim was total BS.
On another note didn't bisu say the opposite, that he wanted to switch to terran but he decided to try to stay protoss for his fans. Just thought it could be put out there
On December 22 2013 10:03 OutlaW- wrote: [quote] Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
[quote] I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
That's total BS. Flash wanted to play Protoss cause it fit his playstyle more.
Isn't that what he said? or were you responding to the guy he quoted?
I believe he was affirming that Snusmumriken's claim was total BS.
On another note didn't bisu say the opposite, that he wanted to switch to terran but he decided to try to stay protoss for his fans. Just thought it could be put out there
I thought it was someone saying that Bisu had really really good Terran, but didn't switch, I'm not sure what the reason was. I don't think Bisu said it?
On December 22 2013 10:03 OutlaW- wrote: [quote] Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
[quote] I disagree.
Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
That's total BS. Flash wanted to play Protoss cause it fit his playstyle more.
Isn't that what he said? or were you responding to the guy he quoted?
I believe he was affirming that Snusmumriken's claim was total BS.
On another note didn't bisu say the opposite, that he wanted to switch to terran but he decided to try to stay protoss for his fans. Just thought it could be put out there
If i ask for a link, will i be forced to look it up myself, unless i accept this as fact?
On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote: Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about.
This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design.
It is true that you can't make everyone happy and there will always be people whining. But that doesn't mean patches shouldn't happen. Do we really want to go back to mass reapers or Protoss with K amulet?
The reason you see more Terrans complain is because of the latest patch. Many Protoss didn't even think the oracle buff was needed, yet it went in to give oracles more 'mid game' usage. Basically Blizzard created relevation and really wanted it to be used. But the side effects were bad. It just shows that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction but they are too proud to admit it.
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
No one said what? All I'm saying is you can point to ladder statistics and complain about the state of terran all day, but it's a fact that the top tier players are doing fine with the race and they make up perhaps a majority of tournament favorites still.
Oracle patch might be stupid but that's been around for so little that surely no one's quitting the game over it.
On December 22 2013 10:52 soon.Cloak wrote: I'm curious- is there anybody here that was around the early days of the Brood War era, that saw a race be considered OP for some time, before the other race(s) caught on? I don't know how dominant 3 Hatch Muta actually was in its early days, but I've heard some hyperbole about it having been unbeatable.
Ya, the winrate dropped under 40% for about a month, then shot up to about 60% for 2 months.
In early 2007, we have these wonderful percentages, where T was killing for a bit, before dropping to close to 40%, and needing about 2 months to recover to 50%.
Or here, where we have this insane TvZ having around 60% winrate, or more, for about 4 months.
And, to the best of my limited knowledge, at the pro level, Brood War is considered balanced.
I don't know if PvT is OP or not, but I don't really know if we have given it enough time to tell for certain. Is it possible that some strategy will emerge that will reinvent the entire metagame? Was WOL the same before and after the Infestor dominance period? Didn't PvZ Immortal All-In change how the game was played? Again, I'm not saying that PvT is fair, or close to balanced. All I'm saying is that it's possible that, with more time, T will figure P out.
On December 22 2013 10:46 pure.Wasted wrote: I don't follow a lot of foreign SC, but I know a lot of BW's best foreign Terrans were Russians. Kas being a Russkie, this is sadder than it should be.
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
No one said what? All I'm saying is you can point to ladder statistics and complain about the state of terran all day, but it's a fact that the top tier players are doing fine with the race and they make up perhaps a majority of tournament favorites still.
Oracle patch might be stupid but that's been around for so little that surely no one's quitting the game over it.
cause the state of early game Terran isn't good and hasn't ever been good since HoTS came out. The oracle patch did nothing to fundamentally change anything, but made the problem worse. It's much less about balance, and much more about the lack of options and fun that is TvP, or anything vs Protoss. Does anyone really like to face Protoss?
On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote: Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about.
This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design.
It is true that you can't make everyone happy and there will always be people whining. But that doesn't mean patches shouldn't happen. Do we really want to go back to mass reapers or Protoss with K amulet?
The reason you see more Terrans complain is because of the latest patch. Many Protoss didn't even think the oracle buff was needed, yet it went in to give oracles more 'mid game' usage. Basically Blizzard created relevation and really wanted it to be used. But the side effects were bad. It just shows that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction but they are too proud to admit it.
There may be times when something is obviously out of whack. I don't know if mass Reaper was as imbalanced as it is now made to sound. I only started watching and playing SC2 a little after that, iirc. But, I would have liked Blizzard to have left the game alone for a while to see if players adapted instead of giving into an itchy nerf finger. The K amulet was imbalanced. Especially at at time when Protoss players had not even really begun to develop Templar-centric play styles.
My point (for HOTS) was that after beta was done, the game should have been left alone for a while (but, then you get people asking for patches because the game is "stale"). IMO, constant patches and re-figuring the game and wading through the whine all gets exhausting. Especially when it is so repetitive. It must be a lot worse for pros. Easier to complain, I suppose.
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The majority of Terran whose global opinion you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
I don't know if PvT is OP or not, but I don't really know if we have given it enough time to tell for certain. Is it possible that some strategy will emerge that will reinvent the entire metagame? Was WOL the same before and after the Infestor dominance period? Didn't PvZ Immortal All-In change how the game was played?
A big misconception that people talk about is this thing that Protoss is overpowered. I think that's not really the right word. Ever since HoTS came out, Terran early game is pretty much the exact same thing cause of the oracle. Everything that Terran opens up, you need to have a defense for an oracle or you can just lose straight up. When Protoss has a ton of options to open up, while Terran has realistically 1-2 macro, and 1 very all in (11/11) option, it skews the ladder stats by a lot. PvZ Immortal All in is very similar to how the situation is for Terran, without the high win %. If Protoss wins, it's going to probably be in the early, or late game. If Terran wins, it's probably going to be in the mid game (that maybe leads into the late game). That wasn't fun to watch or play for anyone in WoL. How is that going to change now?
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
On December 22 2013 10:46 pure.Wasted wrote: I don't follow a lot of foreign SC, but I know a lot of BW's best foreign Terrans were Russians. Kas being a Russkie, this is sadder than it should be.
On December 22 2013 10:18 Ammanas wrote:And do you really believe that they are just straight up better players then any other race players?
Yes. When Protoss takes the same level of multitasking game in and game out and their pros are still able to deliver consistent results the way Inno, Taeja, Bomber, and Maru do, then I'll say Protoss pros are on the exact same level. Until then -- color me not terribly impressed. It's not their fault the race doesn't encourage that kind of play so strongly, but it doesn't mean I have to get overhyped about the amount of skill it takes to Psi Storm a bioball, which is basically the same amount of skill it used to take to Fungal a bioball, which everyone agreed was very, very little.
The most impressive micro/multitasking tricks a Protoss has to pull off are Feedback - which is a little bit more impressive than Snipe, because they have to use it to counter drops - and in 1/10 games, Stalker blink micro, which is the same as the kind of splitting every single Terran has to do in every single game against Zerg ever. If the Protoss is Rain or First, they might be into Zealot warp ins, too. I get excited about Zealot warp ins. That's how much multitasking Protoss takes. I get genuinely excited about seeing Zealot warp ins.
Zerg who can consistently go toe-to-toe with Terrans in macro slugfests are bad-asses, though, there's no denying that. DRG, Life, Jaedong. Can't remember if Soulkey ever did a particularly impressive macro series. He beat Inno with mostly cheese, and he got dismantled by Maru in WCG KR. Neither Bomber nor Maru really pushed him to his limits at Asus Rog since they both favored mech. I could certainly be forgetting something.
so we are basically back 2 years ago, still with the same argument:
'all protoss are scrubs who don't know how to play and the only reason terran master race is actually losing is because they are severely underpowered.'
Oh, but instead of 'they should learn to play' at the end, now people mostly add 'It's not their fault the race is stupid'.
Basically Idra level - apologize for playing that race.
...nice
My primary concern isn't balance, it's game design. I don't ladder. I only watch Korean tournaments, and I want those to be as entertaining and as rewarding of skill as humanly possible. That doesn't mean I'm not biased, but it might mean I'm less biased than some. Anyway, if the game design hasn't changed in 2 years, why should the argument change? If anything it's gotten worse because of a plethora of low-skill openings and low-skill defenses. Compare Squirtle's near-hold of MVP's 2-rax all-in in GSL, where both had to micro their hearts out in phenomenal displays of skill under pressure, versus... the Nexus cannon, which shuts attacks down outright. And that was a legit all-in from T, not the sort of high pressure pseudo-all-in-but-actually-macro-opening builds we see from Protoss these days. So why should the argument change if the Protoss's worst traits are only being emphasized as time goes on?
On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote: All it takes is one pro foreign Terran to ignite a shit storm on TL, lol.
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The majority of Terran whose global opinion you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
Have you considered that some Terrans want to see Protoss similarly 'touched,' so that their race would reward multitasking and micro just as much?
On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote: Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about.
This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design.
It is true that you can't make everyone happy and there will always be people whining. But that doesn't mean patches shouldn't happen. Do we really want to go back to mass reapers or Protoss with K amulet?
The reason you see more Terrans complain is because of the latest patch. Many Protoss didn't even think the oracle buff was needed, yet it went in to give oracles more 'mid game' usage. Basically Blizzard created relevation and really wanted it to be used. But the side effects were bad. It just shows that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction but they are too proud to admit it.
There may be times when something is obviously out of whack. I don't know if mass Reaper was as imbalanced as it is now made to sound. I only started watching and playing SC2 a little after that, iirc. But, I would have liked Blizzard to have left the game alone for a while to see if players adapted instead of giving into an itchy nerf finger. The K amulet was imbalanced. Especially at at time when Protoss players had not even really begun to develop Templar-centric play styles.
My point (for HOTS) was that after beta was done, the game should have been left alone for a while (but, then you get people asking for patches because the game is "stale"). IMO, constant patches and re-figuring the game and wading through the whine all gets exhausting. Especially when it is so repetitive. It must be a lot worse for pros. Easier to complain, I suppose.
That's fine if the patches made sense though. What did the tank firing speed really do? Have we seen more mech play by that much in TvP/TvZ? (I mean, it happens but it's still by the same pros). The logic that the mine nerf was to promote tank/mine play in TvZ was just stupidity. Even now, mines are the things that dominate TvZ. Why would they increase oracle speed if Protoss already had a stupid good early game? To make mid game/late game viable? How often do we even see oracles in the mid/late game? I don't even remember any pro game that has oracles in the late game after the patch. The logic doesn't make sense and that's a huge problem for pro gamers. It's fine if you're a top tier player, who has superior mechanics, and a team that supports you for a long time. For the non-top tier players, patches that make no sense hurts the credibility of DK and the Blizzard balance team. Why would anyone want to dedicate time in their life to professionally play a game that could very well nerf or buff things on a whim?
On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote: Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about.
This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design.
It is true that you can't make everyone happy and there will always be people whining. But that doesn't mean patches shouldn't happen. Do we really want to go back to mass reapers or Protoss with K amulet?
The reason you see more Terrans complain is because of the latest patch. Many Protoss didn't even think the oracle buff was needed, yet it went in to give oracles more 'mid game' usage. Basically Blizzard created relevation and really wanted it to be used. But the side effects were bad. It just shows that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction but they are too proud to admit it.
There may be times when something is obviously out of whack. I don't know if mass Reaper was as imbalanced as it is now made to sound. I only started watching and playing SC2 a little after that, iirc. But, I would have liked Blizzard to have left the game alone for a while to see if players adapted instead of giving into an itchy nerf finger. The K amulet was imbalanced. Especially at at time when Protoss players had not even really begun to develop Templar-centric play styles.
My point (for HOTS) was that after beta was done, the game should have been left alone for a while (but, then you get people asking for patches because the game is "stale"). IMO, constant patches and re-figuring the game and wading through the whine all gets exhausting. Especially when it is so repetitive. It must be a lot worse for pros. Easier to complain, I suppose.
That's fine if the patches made sense though. What did the tank firing speed really do? Have we seen more mech play by that much in TvP/TvZ? (I mean, it happens but it's still by the same pros). The logic that the mine nerf was to promote tank/mine play in TvZ was just stupidity. Even now, mines are the things that dominate TvZ. Why would they increase oracle speed if Protoss already had a stupid good early game? To make mid game/late game viable? How often do we even see oracles in the mid/late game? I don't even remember any pro game that has oracles in the late game after the patch. The logic doesn't make sense and that's a huge problem for pro gamers. It's fine if you're a top tier player, who has superior mechanics, and a team that supports you for a long time. For the non-top tier players, patches that make no sense hurts the credibility of DK and the Blizzard balance team. Why would anyone want to dedicate time in their life to professionally play a game that could very well nerf or buff things on a whim?
You mean buff or nerf things on a whim against your own race, right? You're not going to tell me you'd be opposed to Blizzard buffing Terran on a whim to fix their early/late game at all levels of play, which is so ridiculously biased.
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. DK has pretty much always been hailed as the great destroyer of balance. Theres nothing to read into.
On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote: Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about.
This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design.
It is true that you can't make everyone happy and there will always be people whining. But that doesn't mean patches shouldn't happen. Do we really want to go back to mass reapers or Protoss with K amulet?
The reason you see more Terrans complain is because of the latest patch. Many Protoss didn't even think the oracle buff was needed, yet it went in to give oracles more 'mid game' usage. Basically Blizzard created relevation and really wanted it to be used. But the side effects were bad. It just shows that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction but they are too proud to admit it.
There may be times when something is obviously out of whack. I don't know if mass Reaper was as imbalanced as it is now made to sound. I only started watching and playing SC2 a little after that, iirc. But, I would have liked Blizzard to have left the game alone for a while to see if players adapted instead of giving into an itchy nerf finger. The K amulet was imbalanced. Especially at at time when Protoss players had not even really begun to develop Templar-centric play styles.
My point (for HOTS) was that after beta was done, the game should have been left alone for a while (but, then you get people asking for patches because the game is "stale"). IMO, constant patches and re-figuring the game and wading through the whine all gets exhausting. Especially when it is so repetitive. It must be a lot worse for pros. Easier to complain, I suppose.
That's fine if the patches made sense though. What did the tank firing speed really do? Have we seen more mech play by that much in TvP/TvZ? (I mean, it happens but it's still by the same pros). The logic that the mine nerf was to promote tank/mine play in TvZ was just stupidity. Even now, mines are the things that dominate TvZ. Why would they increase oracle speed if Protoss already had a stupid good early game? To make mid game/late game viable? How often do we even see oracles in the mid/late game? I don't even remember any pro game that has oracles in the late game after the patch. The logic doesn't make sense and that's a huge problem for pro gamers. It's fine if you're a top tier player, who has superior mechanics, and a team that supports you for a long time. For the non-top tier players, patches that make no sense hurts the credibility of DK and the Blizzard balance team. Why would anyone want to dedicate time in their life to professionally play a game that could very well nerf or buff things on a whim?
You mean buff or nerf things on a whim against your own race, right? You're not going to tell me you'd be opposed to Blizzard buffing Terran on a whim to fix their early/late game at all levels of play, which is so ridiculously biased.
I would not mind a buff to Protoss to increase micro-bility of the race. I would love for Colossi to be a unit that's not an a-move unit so that it's actually fun to use and watch. Just like how a lot of Terrans complained about the Warhound being a horrible unit, despite it being stupidly overpowered and would win every Terran a lot more games - I want the game to be more fun to play and to watch for every race. What are some on a whim nerfs that Protoss has had in HoTS?
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
On December 22 2013 10:46 pure.Wasted wrote: I don't follow a lot of foreign SC, but I know a lot of BW's best foreign Terrans were Russians. Kas being a Russkie, this is sadder than it should be.
Kas is Ukranian.
Regardless, eastern Europeans are known to be excellent at video games. I wonder if Kas has ever played Quake; the Russians there could use some competition.
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
No one said what? All I'm saying is you can point to ladder statistics and complain about the state of terran all day, but it's a fact that the top tier players are doing fine with the race and they make up perhaps a majority of tournament favorites still.
Oracle patch might be stupid but that's been around for so little that surely no one's quitting the game over it.
cause the state of early game Terran isn't good and hasn't ever been good since HoTS came out. The oracle patch did nothing to fundamentally change anything, but made the problem worse. It's much less about balance, and much more about the lack of options and fun that is TvP, or anything vs Protoss. Does anyone really like to face Protoss?
I'm sure there are a nice number of people who prefer the the hectic pace of a drop-focused strategy , or the surgical-dismantling of 200/200 blobs with ghosts, to the ungodly 1a spamfests that are Zerg matchups.
As for the choice of options, the only thing we can really do is beg Blizzard to look to the past for inspiration. Brood War's TvZ shows the genius of old Terran design, where the race was focused around their strategic versatility, rather than the power of spammable dropships. They have to make Mech work, and they have to replace the medivac. Who knows what words will sway them...
On December 22 2013 10:09 Plansix wrote: [quote] Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
That's total BS. Flash wanted to play Protoss cause it fit his playstyle more.
Isn't that what he said? or were you responding to the guy he quoted?
I believe he was affirming that Snusmumriken's claim was total BS.
On another note didn't bisu say the opposite, that he wanted to switch to terran but he decided to try to stay protoss for his fans. Just thought it could be put out there
If i ask for a link, will i be forced to look it up myself, unless i accept this as fact?
If you really missed the whole Bisu should switch to Terran discussion on TL everytime Bisu played a SC2 match, then you probably don't care enough about this information anyway. But since it was around the Hellvac era I guess everyone considered switching to Terran.
Kas would have probably take some championships if he would have been put into a Korean team house. You really have to respect his ability to grind games. But EU Ladder or KR Ladder with lag isn't the best training environment.
Personally I am curious if Terran Bio gets a Mech killer unit with LotV, so they can buff Mech into oblivion and manage that Bio is still viable in TvT and Mech will become easier in the other matchups. Afterall most Mech nerfs were TvT related (Blue flame n Siege Tank damage) in order to make Bio viable in TvT and get away from Tank Viking. Never understood why Bio should be possible to play in 3 matchups, but if they wanna stick with it they might as well tinker with the matchup that prevents Mech buffs.
I'm sure there are a nice number of people who prefer the the hectic pace of a drop-focused strategy , or the surgical-dismantling of 200/200 blobs with ghosts, to the ungodly 1a spamfests that are Zerg matchups.
As for the choice of options, the only thing we can really do is beg Blizzard to look to the past for inspiration. Brood War's TvZ shows the genius of old Terran design, where the race was focused around their strategic versatility, rather than the power of spammable dropships. They have to make Mech work, and they have to nerf the medivac. Who knows what words will sway them...
I really just want some more logical decisions, and more units that aren't just MAKE THIS CAUSE IT'S A HARD COUNTER TO THIS OTHER UNIT. I don't even care at this point if it's better for one race or another.
On December 22 2013 10:46 pure.Wasted wrote: I don't follow a lot of foreign SC, but I know a lot of BW's best foreign Terrans were Russians. Kas being a Russkie, this is sadder than it should be.
Kas is Ukranian.
I don't mean to speak for all Ukrainians, but many of us self-identify as Russkies in a global context. As someone else pointed out, in this case it was just shorthand for Eastern European.
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once ..
Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time?
No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol
I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims?
That's total BS. Flash wanted to play Protoss cause it fit his playstyle more.
Isn't that what he said? or were you responding to the guy he quoted?
I believe he was affirming that Snusmumriken's claim was total BS.
On another note didn't bisu say the opposite, that he wanted to switch to terran but he decided to try to stay protoss for his fans. Just thought it could be put out there
If i ask for a link, will i be forced to look it up myself, unless i accept this as fact?
If you really missed the whole Bisu should switch to Terran discussion on TL everytime Bisu played a SC2 match, then you probably don't care enough about this information anyway. But since it was around the Hellvac era I guess everyone considered switching to Terran.
Kas would have probably take some championships if he would have been put into a Korean team house. You really have to respect his ability to grind games. But EU Ladder or KR Ladder with lag isn't the best training environment.
Personally I am curious if Terran Bio gets a Mech killer unit with LotV, so they can buff Mech into oblivion and manage that Bio is still viable in TvT and Mech will become easier in the other matchups. Afterall most Mech nerfs were TvT related (Blue flame n Siege Tank damage) in order to make Bio viable in TvT and get away from Tank Viking. Never understood why Bio should be possible to play in 3 matchups, but if they wanna stick with it they might as well tinker with the matchup that prevents Mech buffs.
don't worry with 1 or 2mech buffs bio will be relatively dead in TvT. And DK will claim it was to promote mech/tank usage vP and Z coz he's just a fking liar.
Protoss is, almost unarguably, the strongest lategame race. While they are contested by borehost/infestor/blord, the warpin ability combined with the power of laserballs can win against pretty much any composition if both sides are handled by equally skilled players. However, because of this huge advantage the later the game goes, the way that protoss was designed opposes how common sense says RTS races should operate. Instead of using options to obtain an advantage, the inherent advantage from the lategame capability means that protoss isn't designed around using options to get an advantage, but rather shutting down advantages of the other races. Forcefields, time warp, planetary nexus, and feedback are all, at an essential level, used to stop aggression or weaken it - early timings held off by ramp FF's, planetary nexus to neutralize drops, time warp can stop stim/speed timings, feedback to stop fungal/emp domination etc. So, as a Terran player, it becomes this ridiculous game because you can play your best but if the protoss player has enough of a brain to shut down drop harass and/or push timings, there is this inevitable sense that you're going to lose because they always have a better lategame army.
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's an absurd state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote: Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about.
This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design.
It is true that you can't make everyone happy and there will always be people whining. But that doesn't mean patches shouldn't happen. Do we really want to go back to mass reapers or Protoss with K amulet?
The reason you see more Terrans complain is because of the latest patch. Many Protoss didn't even think the oracle buff was needed, yet it went in to give oracles more 'mid game' usage. Basically Blizzard created relevation and really wanted it to be used. But the side effects were bad. It just shows that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction but they are too proud to admit it.
There may be times when something is obviously out of whack. I don't know if mass Reaper was as imbalanced as it is now made to sound. I only started watching and playing SC2 a little after that, iirc. But, I would have liked Blizzard to have left the game alone for a while to see if players adapted instead of giving into an itchy nerf finger. The K amulet was imbalanced. Especially at at time when Protoss players had not even really begun to develop Templar-centric play styles.
My point (for HOTS) was that after beta was done, the game should have been left alone for a while (but, then you get people asking for patches because the game is "stale"). IMO, constant patches and re-figuring the game and wading through the whine all gets exhausting. Especially when it is so repetitive. It must be a lot worse for pros. Easier to complain, I suppose.
That's fine if the patches made sense though. What did the tank firing speed really do? Have we seen more mech play by that much in TvP/TvZ? (I mean, it happens but it's still by the same pros). The logic that the mine nerf was to promote tank/mine play in TvZ was just stupidity. Even now, mines are the things that dominate TvZ. Why would they increase oracle speed if Protoss already had a stupid good early game? To make mid game/late game viable? How often do we even see oracles in the mid/late game? I don't even remember any pro game that has oracles in the late game after the patch. The logic doesn't make sense and that's a huge problem for pro gamers. It's fine if you're a top tier player, who has superior mechanics, and a team that supports you for a long time. For the non-top tier players, patches that make no sense hurts the credibility of DK and the Blizzard balance team. Why would anyone want to dedicate time in their life to professionally play a game that could very well nerf or buff things on a whim?
It's funny you use tank firing example and mech, though. As Blizzard looked to mech as a result of community desire to have mech viable in TvP even if the match-up might not actually lead to BW-esque mech style, but more turtle Terran into a-move with preferred hard counter mech composition. A strong buff to Mech might not work out in the way people want it to, not just in the sense of a good spectator game, but also because combinations with bio might well be overpowered. Given that, I am not surprised they chose to take it very easy on the tank. IMO, the tank (and mech) should have been left alone.
As to the mine nerf, I thought it was because Z was whining so much about it? Unfortunately, one (perhaps unforeseen) consequence was that it neutered fast WM drops in TvP. But, I hope you get my point. And I agree with your last sentence.
Anyway, I'm going to do a mini-Kas and spent most of the rest of my Sunday laddering.
Ironically, I've gotten smashed by Terrans in my first two games. Heh.
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote: So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote: Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about.
This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design.
It is true that you can't make everyone happy and there will always be people whining. But that doesn't mean patches shouldn't happen. Do we really want to go back to mass reapers or Protoss with K amulet?
The reason you see more Terrans complain is because of the latest patch. Many Protoss didn't even think the oracle buff was needed, yet it went in to give oracles more 'mid game' usage. Basically Blizzard created relevation and really wanted it to be used. But the side effects were bad. It just shows that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction but they are too proud to admit it.
There may be times when something is obviously out of whack. I don't know if mass Reaper was as imbalanced as it is now made to sound. I only started watching and playing SC2 a little after that, iirc. But, I would have liked Blizzard to have left the game alone for a while to see if players adapted instead of giving into an itchy nerf finger. The K amulet was imbalanced. Especially at at time when Protoss players had not even really begun to develop Templar-centric play styles.
My point (for HOTS) was that after beta was done, the game should have been left alone for a while (but, then you get people asking for patches because the game is "stale"). IMO, constant patches and re-figuring the game and wading through the whine all gets exhausting. Especially when it is so repetitive. It must be a lot worse for pros. Easier to complain, I suppose.
That's fine if the patches made sense though. What did the tank firing speed really do? Have we seen more mech play by that much in TvP/TvZ? (I mean, it happens but it's still by the same pros). The logic that the mine nerf was to promote tank/mine play in TvZ was just stupidity. Even now, mines are the things that dominate TvZ. Why would they increase oracle speed if Protoss already had a stupid good early game? To make mid game/late game viable? How often do we even see oracles in the mid/late game? I don't even remember any pro game that has oracles in the late game after the patch. The logic doesn't make sense and that's a huge problem for pro gamers. It's fine if you're a top tier player, who has superior mechanics, and a team that supports you for a long time. For the non-top tier players, patches that make no sense hurts the credibility of DK and the Blizzard balance team. Why would anyone want to dedicate time in their life to professionally play a game that could very well nerf or buff things on a whim?
It's funny you use tank firing example and mech, though. As Blizzard looked to mech as a result of community desire to have mech viable in TvP even if the match-up might not actually lead to BW-esque mech style, but more turtle Terran into a-move with preferred hard counter mech composition. A strong buff to Mech might not work out in the way people want it to, not just in the sense of a good spectator game, but also because combinations with bio might well be overpowered. Given that, I am not surprised they chose to take it very easy on the tank. IMO, the tank should have been left alone.
As to the mine nerf, I thought it was because Z was whining so much about it? Unfortunately, one (perhaps unforeseen) consequence was that it neutered fast WM drops in TvP. But, I hope you get my point. And I agree with your last sentence.
Anyway, I'm going to do a mini-Kas and spent most of the rest of my Sunday laddering.
I'm really not sure if buffing mech now is the best idea cause it's gonna be a big change, and might be better to be left for LotV. Though if they could make mech semi-viable now, and overhaul how Protoss works as a race for LotV, that might be good too.
The thing about the mine nerf is that after the Overseer buff, not really many pro Zergs whined, and the games really showed that. You though you saw Jaedong in the WCS S2 finals get raped by Bomber, he dramatically improved later on and had very good TvZ's. Most of the whining that I saw at least, was from people on the forums so I'm not sure why they changed it. They said to promote tank usage but that's been a huge failure thus far.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
the real question is why foreigner can have success with P/Z and not T.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote: [quote]
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What could possibly be the reasons behind that?
Because Foreign Terrans, are not nearly as good as Korean Terrans. The conclusion you're trying to circle around to is futile, because the existence of Korean Terrans means touching that balance could blow up Korea.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote: [quote]
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What could possibly be the reasons behind that?
Because Foreign Terrans, are not nearly as good as Korean Terrans. The conclusion you're trying to circle around to is futile, because the existence of Korean Terrans means touching that balance could blow up Korea.
sorry i forgot scarlett/nani's skill was near soulkey/dear's skill. My bad.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
I interjected many posts ago but you missed (or ignored) my response then. Every single one of your posts has been making a completely different point and none of them stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny - first that current balance is somehow the only possible way in all the galaxies we can prevent GomTvT (which is patently absurd, Terrans like the state of TvZ despite 50/50), then that all Terrans care about is results (patently false as the vast majority of Terrans hated the Warhound which would have given them very, very many easy wins), then that Terran foreigners are simply inferior to Zerg and Protoss foreigners. Which is a nice theory, but that's all it is. And in light of GM Protoss/Zerg/Terran rates, it's not even all that nice.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote: [quote]
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What could possibly be the reasons behind that?
Because Foreign Terrans, are not nearly as good as Korean Terrans. The conclusion you're trying to circle around to is futile, because the existence of Korean Terrans means touching that balance could blow up Korea.
So essentially what you're saying is that Korean Terrans have some type of innate ability to be better at Terran than foreigners. You're not answering the question. Why are the best Terrans from Korea, and not from outside of Korea when Protoss and Zerg have reps from outside Korea that are just as good as Koreans in Korea.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
god why is everybody playing around the bush. terran in the highest level is more difficult than the other two.
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote: [quote]
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
god why is everybody playing around the bush. terran in the highest level is more difficult than the other two.
be patient with those little protoss. it's funny to witness them trying to dodge that fact.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote: [quote]
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
god why is everybody playing around the bush. terran in the highest level is more difficult than the other two.
be patient with those little protoss. it's funny to witness them trying to dodge that fact.
I love this argument: my race is imbalanced for me. I know other people can win, but I can't so the game must be flawed.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote: [quote]
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
god why is everybody playing around the bush. terran in the highest level is more difficult than the other two.
be patient with those little protoss. it's funny to witness them trying to dodge that fact.
I love this argument: my race is imbalanced for me. I know other people can win, but I can't so the game must be flawed.
Don't try to reason with Terrans, according to them the game is always harder since they apparently have to have more skill than the other two races in order to win anything.
Also it's quite sad how anti-Protoss this community is. People were whining about toss even when they weren't winning many tournaments earlier this year. Apparently Protoss isn't supposed to win anything and even when they don't, there's always something to complain about them.
I think Protoss isn't really unbalanced but the engagements are just a lot easier for the protoss player than the terran player and this results in non korean terran players just never being relevant. The solution isn't to nerf protoss or buff terran but to make protoss harder to play in some aspects and less forgiving.
It's easy to see the difference between Life's ling useage and that by your average EU GM zerg. There's a huge difference between Innovation's marine splits and those done by your standard EU GM terran. It's hard to see any difference at all between sOs' or Dear's zealot control and (insert one of the many EU Protoss' name here)', because there is just so little micro potential with zealots and archons. Storm is also very easy to use, yet very strong. Units like phoenixes allow players to show great control but sadly they're not even needed in TvP, instead they have buffed the oracle, an unit that is easier to use and was already more powerful than a phoenix. I don't know why charge for example has an auto-cast option. If you had to press atleast a hotkey to activate charge it wouldn't change the balance at all but make Protoss a bit harder to play. Blizzard should make a few changes like this.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote: [quote]
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
god why is everybody playing around the bush. terran in the highest level is more difficult than the other two.
be patient with those little protoss. it's funny to witness them trying to dodge that fact.
I love this argument: my race is imbalanced for me. I know other people can win, but I can't so the game must be flawed.
protoss player are so skilled that they take half the gm spots. oh wait.
Our savior Xenocider will crush korean and win blizzcon next year tho.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote: [quote]
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What could possibly be the reasons behind that?
Because Foreign Terrans, are not nearly as good as Korean Terrans. The conclusion you're trying to circle around to is futile, because the existence of Korean Terrans means touching that balance could blow up Korea.
If you're going to parade this argument, then wouldn't the old WOL "Terran is only winning because all the best players in Korea pick it" be valid as well?
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote: [quote]
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What could possibly be the reasons behind that?
Because Foreign Terrans, are not nearly as good as Korean Terrans. The conclusion you're trying to circle around to is futile, because the existence of Korean Terrans means touching that balance could blow up Korea.
If you're going to parade this argument, then wouldn't the old WOL "Terran is only winning because all the best players in Korea pick it" be valid as well?
yep. But T was badly imbalanced for a long time in wol so it just backfires pretty quickly :p
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote: [quote]
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What could possibly be the reasons behind that?
Because Foreign Terrans, are not nearly as good as Korean Terrans. The conclusion you're trying to circle around to is futile, because the existence of Korean Terrans means touching that balance could blow up Korea.
If you're going to parade this argument, then wouldn't the old WOL "Terran is only winning because all the best players in Korea pick it" be valid as well?
You could try to say the same thing about Zerg in the BL-infestor era, but that would be wrong too. All the races have had their points of imbalance. The era of super emp and super fast stim was pretty dumb.
On December 22 2013 12:26 spalding wrote: I think Protoss isn't really unbalanced but the engagements are just a lot easier for the protoss player than the terran player and this results in non korean terran players just never being relevant. The solution isn't to nerf protoss or buff terran but to make protoss harder to play in some aspects and less forgiving.
It's easy to see the difference between Life's ling useage and that by your average EU GM zerg. There's a huge difference between Innovation's marine splits and those done by your standard EU GM terran. It's hard to see any difference at all between sOs' or Dear's zealot control and (insert one of the many EU Protoss' name here)', because there is just so little micro potential with zealots and archons. Storm is also very easy to use, yet very strong. Units like phoenixes allow players to show great control but sadly they're not even needed in TvP, instead they have buffed the oracle, an unit that is easier to use and was already more powerful than a phoenix. I don't know why charge for example has an auto-cast option. If you had to press atleast a hotkey to activate charge it wouldn't change the balance at all but make Protoss a bit harder to play. Blizzard should make a few changes like this.
I agree with this.
They did that to charge to make the game easier for casuals. Since for example a group of zealot cannot deal any damage to a stutter stepping mmm ball without charge.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote: [quote]
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What could possibly be the reasons behind that?
Because Foreign Terrans, are not nearly as good as Korean Terrans. The conclusion you're trying to circle around to is futile, because the existence of Korean Terrans means touching that balance could blow up Korea.
If you're going to parade this argument, then wouldn't the old WOL "Terran is only winning because all the best players in Korea pick it" be valid as well?
You could try to say the same thing about Zerg in the BL-infestor era, but that would be wrong too. All the races have had their points of imbalance.
ah so you're admitting there is a problem with P or your reasonning is just that poor (cuz P never dominated in WoL XD)
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote: [quote]
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What could possibly be the reasons behind that?
Because Foreign Terrans, are not nearly as good as Korean Terrans. The conclusion you're trying to circle around to is futile, because the existence of Korean Terrans means touching that balance could blow up Korea.
If you're going to parade this argument, then wouldn't the old WOL "Terran is only winning because all the best players in Korea pick it" be valid as well?
You could try to say the same thing about Zerg in the BL-infestor era, but that would be wrong too. All the races have had their points of imbalance.
ah so you're admitting there is a problem with P or your reasonning is just that poor (cuz P never dominated in WoL XD)
The amulet was fucking imbalance as shit. That thing was fucking stupid. Protoss didn't win a lot with it, but it was only a matter if time till they did.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote: [quote]
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What could possibly be the reasons behind that?
Because Foreign Terrans, are not nearly as good as Korean Terrans. The conclusion you're trying to circle around to is futile, because the existence of Korean Terrans means touching that balance could blow up Korea.
So essentially what you're saying is that Korean Terrans have some type of innate ability to be better at Terran than foreigners. You're not answering the question. Why are the best Terrans from Korea, and not from outside of Korea when Protoss and Zerg have reps from outside Korea that are just as good as Koreans in Korea.
They practice more, are on teams with some of the best players in the world to practice with, and have much better infrastructure to facilitate their practice. They are absurdly good, it's not for a random reason. There's no point in answering the question when I can simply interject that foreign Terrans will always have the opportunity to raise their bar to Korean level. The game isn't what is stopping them.
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote: [quote]
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
god why is everybody playing around the bush. terran in the highest level is more difficult than the other two.
Because it's a bush. They are harder at the higher level, but they have a much higher skill cap. It still makes it very difficult to touch the other races without addressing that.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote: [quote]
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What could possibly be the reasons behind that?
Because Foreign Terrans, are not nearly as good as Korean Terrans. The conclusion you're trying to circle around to is futile, because the existence of Korean Terrans means touching that balance could blow up Korea.
If you're going to parade this argument, then wouldn't the old WOL "Terran is only winning because all the best players in Korea pick it" be valid as well?
I wouldn't word it quite like that. Terran has a higher skill cap than the other races. Theres no objective way to try and evaluate skill without injecting some sort of bias. But the best Terran players are definitely some of THE best players in the game. I'm just hesitant to say the best Zergs and Protoss aren't capable of playing Terran at the same level in a hypothetical world where they magically get 3 years of Terran practice.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote: [quote]
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What could possibly be the reasons behind that?
Because Foreign Terrans, are not nearly as good as Korean Terrans. The conclusion you're trying to circle around to is futile, because the existence of Korean Terrans means touching that balance could blow up Korea.
If you're going to parade this argument, then wouldn't the old WOL "Terran is only winning because all the best players in Korea pick it" be valid as well?
You could try to say the same thing about Zerg in the BL-infestor era, but that would be wrong too. All the races have had their points of imbalance.
ah so you're admitting there is a problem with P or your reasonning is just that poor (cuz P never dominated in WoL XD)
The amulet was fucking imbalance as shit. That thing was fucking stupid. Protoss didn't win a lot with it, but it was only a matter if time till they did.
Well it was back to the times of 110s stim. Every race had shit imbalanced but P didn't win a lot because they were on the bad side of the balance. (all the shit Terran could pull off pre 10min lol). The moment P appeared the most broken was probably the MC/July final, but that was more a oh shit i didn't see it coming than pure imbalance (just like the Nestea/Losicat final). But yeah so the point of P imbalanced, when they dominate never existed... until hots lol.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote: [quote]
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What could possibly be the reasons behind that?
Because Foreign Terrans, are not nearly as good as Korean Terrans. The conclusion you're trying to circle around to is futile, because the existence of Korean Terrans means touching that balance could blow up Korea.
If you're going to parade this argument, then wouldn't the old WOL "Terran is only winning because all the best players in Korea pick it" be valid as well?
You could try to say the same thing about Zerg in the BL-infestor era, but that would be wrong too. All the races have had their points of imbalance. The era of super emp and super fast stim was pretty dumb.
Yep that's what I was leading into. That's not to say I think this Protoss era is as bad as any of the T/Z ones, but with pros of every race venting frustration in the vP matchup, I think it's silly to dismiss it as poor mindset.
My hypothesis is David Kim wants to make the game as crappy as possible so players are forced to LOTV. It might sound like a joke, but what (non-korean) Terran would want to stay in this game in its current state. It's funny how they never fixed the BL/Infestor in WoL and just waited for HOTS. I rest my case.
My thought is, much like the Mothership/Vortex, Blizzard will do away with this unit and add new defensive units in its place - which might actually cost resources instead of ENERGY. Two years from now everyone will be joking about how bad the State of Game was...similar to BL/Infestor, Queendralisk etc .
On December 22 2013 13:58 SirPinky wrote: My hypothesis is David Kim wants to make the game as crappy as possible so players are forced to LOTV. It might sound like a joke, but what (non-korean) Terran would want to stay in this game in its current state. It's funny how they never fixed the BL/Infestor in WoL and just waited for HOTS. I rest my case.
My thought is, much like the Mothership/Vortex, Blizzard will do away with this unit and add new defensive units in its place - which might actually cost resources instead of ENERGY. Two years from now everyone will be joking about how bad the State of Game was...similar to BL/Infestor, Queendralisk etc .
Sick. Since HotS is so amazing for protoss and we make up the majority of players, I guess I/we'll be sticking to HotS. I'd love to see only Terrans playing LOTV. I'd give it 1 week, tops, before everyone starts crying about how imbalanced t vs t is.
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:48 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:45 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:43 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:38 rd wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote: [quote]
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
Very true. Korean Terrans are different from Terrans for a reason. We may never know why exactly, or what really prompted him to quit. But if he's mentioning David Kim, it's no secret what's been happening the last few months. If it's right, or not right that he's blaming DK, that's something that'll time will tell.
Theres nothing to tell. This is the same story since 2011, it really hasn't changed all that much. Kas from then until now, has remained a top foreigner and only a top foreigner, which compared to Korea isn't enough. Korea has always had Terrans winning with fairly good consistency. Theres nothing to read into.
I think there's something to read into when we can name Naniwa and Scarlett as some of the best players in the world (without the foreigner tag), and not have any Terran be mentioned to be anywhere near that level. You have Plansix who has a hard-on for Xeno, and his one win in KOREA that included virtually no Koreans.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
the real question is why foreigner can have success with P/Z and not T.
Because Thorzain is mostly retired. And because Lucifron hit VortiX during the height of the patchzerg era in all of his tournaments.
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea.
And why do foreign toss/zerg have consistently more success than foreign terrans, as known since fucking forever?
Are you actually saying that pro level Toss need skilless low risk high reward openings as a crutch to beat pro level Terrans? If yes, that's a horrible state of affairs and it needs to change immediately. If no... what are you saying?
You could probably start by reading the nested quotes in my previous posts instead of interjecting mid-conversation and quoting me out of context.
On December 22 2013 11:58 Chaggi wrote:
On December 22 2013 11:53 rd wrote: [quote]
Not really, it's been known since fucking forever that foreign toss/zerg have consistently had more success than foreign Terrans, and that STILL doesn't change the state of balance in Korea which, again, simply revolves back around to the futility of this discussion.
sure it does, why do foreign Terrans not have any success at all?
Because they aren't as good as Korean Terrans. Did you really need an answer?
Why do Protoss and Zerg have foreign players that are just as good as the best Koreans, while Terrans have had no foreign players that is consistently among the best?
What could possibly be the reasons behind that?
Because Foreign Terrans, are not nearly as good as Korean Terrans. The conclusion you're trying to circle around to is futile, because the existence of Korean Terrans means touching that balance could blow up Korea.
If you're going to parade this argument, then wouldn't the old WOL "Terran is only winning because all the best players in Korea pick it" be valid as well?
You could try to say the same thing about Zerg in the BL-infestor era, but that would be wrong too. All the races have had their points of imbalance.
ah so you're admitting there is a problem with P or your reasonning is just that poor (cuz P never dominated in WoL XD)
The amulet was fucking imbalance as shit. That thing was fucking stupid. Protoss didn't win a lot with it, but it was only a matter if time till they did.
Well it was back to the times of 110s stim. Every race had shit imbalanced but P didn't win a lot because they were on the bad side of the balance. (all the shit Terran could pull off pre 10min lol). The moment P appeared the most broken was probably the MC/July final, but that was more a oh shit i didn't see it coming than pure imbalance (just like the Nestea/Losicat final). But yeah so the point of P imbalanced, when they dominate never existed... until hots lol.
Maybe not in PvT, but there were definitely a lot of times pre-Broodfestor when PvZ was as bad or worse than it is now (and worse than PvT is now too).
On December 22 2013 13:58 SirPinky wrote: My hypothesis is David Kim wants to make the game as crappy as possible so players are forced to LOTV. It might sound like a joke, but what (non-korean) Terran would want to stay in this game in its current state. It's funny how they never fixed the BL/Infestor in WoL and just waited for HOTS. I rest my case.
My thought is, much like the Mothership/Vortex, Blizzard will do away with this unit and add new defensive units in its place - which might actually cost resources instead of ENERGY. Two years from now everyone will be joking about how bad the State of Game was...similar to BL/Infestor, Queendralisk etc .
Sick. Since HotS is so amazing for protoss and we make up the majority of players, I guess I/we'll be sticking to HotS. I'd love to see only Terrans playing LOTV. I'd give it 1 week, tops, before everyone starts crying about how imbalanced t vs t is.
No, you will all switch to LOTV when you realize you drop 2 leagues b/c your w/l ratio was really dependant on cheesing Terrans with your 1 of 10+ unscoutable/unpunishable openers
Over on the right I see that the top 3 players on TLPD are Terran. If Kas wants to quit because he cannot play as well as Taeja MMA or Innovation, that is fine, but do not whine balance. I will miss Kas. He was great Terran player.
I can't really comment on balance, but what I can say is I have played this game since and it hasn't been in a worse condition then it is now, including BL/Infestor
On December 22 2013 14:25 meadbert wrote: Over on the right I see that the top 3 players on TLPD are Terran. If Kas wants to quit because he cannot play as well as Taeja MMA or Innovation, that is fine, but do not whine balance. I will miss Kas. He was great Terran player.
The day Protoss produces a player who can play non-deathball macro in 3/4 of his games and still win 2-3 premier tournaments per year, you'll have a semblance of a point.
On December 22 2013 13:58 SirPinky wrote: My hypothesis is David Kim wants to make the game as crappy as possible so players are forced to LOTV. .
interesting thinking.... i've put a great deal of thought into this brilliant insight.
if u check the zapruder film in HD, slow motion you'll see david kim with a C-10 Canister Rifle on the grassy knoll. you see a C-10 Canister Rifle is able to fire "magic bullets".
I can just see the memo now. "Hello, Mr. Kim,this is the CEO Mike Morhaime. Please thoroughly fuck up the next few patches of SC2 because we're about to unveil LotV"
Blizzard doesn't sell expansions by intentionally fucking the base game. They sell expansions with the lure of additional content.
On December 22 2013 14:30 magnaflow wrote: I can't really comment on balance, but what I can say is I have played this game since and it hasn't been in a worse condition then it is now, including BL/Infestor
"I can't really comment on balance, but I'm going to ahead and do it anyways." I'm sorry but if you think this is as bad as Broodlord/Infestor era go watch some end of WoL ZvZ and get your head back on straight.
On December 22 2013 14:30 magnaflow wrote: I can't really comment on balance, but what I can say is I have played this game since and it hasn't been in a worse condition then it is now, including BL/Infestor
Shit tier terran always complain about protoss even when they have higher win rate. I didn't listen to them in 2010 and I don't listen to them now. "oh no if only I was korean magically i'd be better at terran" You know back in the day all terran players say no terran isn't stronger its just the much better players are terran. Well now the much better players are protoss.
On December 22 2013 08:11 Nerchio wrote: It's not about balance, it's more that everything lies in hands of protoss players (combo of MSC+sentries allows for extreme defense and extreme offense in just a couple of seconds in both PvT and PvZ) and it's frustrating if it's almost your whole life to not be able to control it
As a Protoss, I spoke out at length against the MSC during the HOTS Beta, how it allowed for skill-less defense that would kill every early game Zerg and Terran timing against Protoss... and that new ones would not develop because of how strong it was. Also, because Protoss units are so tanky in comparison, it wouldn't effect PvP as much as the other matchups. For me, it was about giving the game some variety and fun.
And here we are today. It is really sad.
The only thing worse that David Kim could have done would have been releasing the Warhound. Blizzard really needs a new design team. I'm certain I (or many of us that have a clue) could fix many of the design problems with the game, and make it much more fun for both players and spectators. It doesn't take a rocket scientist. Stupid skill-less abilities, gimmicky units, "free units", and hard counters need to go.
Clearly none of you are reading the context correctly... he's not blaming David Kim... he's thanking Kim for making such a highly skilled game that motivated him.
On December 22 2013 15:54 xxxKagexxx wrote: OMG !!! Kas stop that game !!! ... Hell i understand him. I hope you realize what you'r doing with your game blizzard ...
I thought thats what Kas meant as well until I read all these comments
I think its inevitable that there will be backlash when you make a race revolve around microing a 55hp unit. Many people like to put the blame on protoss but in my opinion the root of the problem has and always will be the insane design of the race around the marine. Nobody is impressed by marine splits at this point and every game looks the same with the focus on the marine forcing players to constantly attack. The unit is almost infinitely microable, sure, but that comes at the cost of having to balance it around the micro ability of the top 5 terrans in the world, and the rest of them can go suck shit. No alternatives.
Ever since the metagame stabilized mid-WOL there has been an enormous gap between foreigner terrans and top korean terrans, and its all thanks to the design of the race. There's no point playing terran unless you are Taeja. If I had to pick the worst designed race in SC2 I'd give the shit-smeared trophy to terran, and I play the damn race.
On December 22 2013 07:44 blade55555 wrote: Wait am I wrong but didn't he retire awhile ago?
Nope I think that's Beastyqt
That was Beasty, I miss him too .
I'm confused why he blames David Kim for HIS inability to succeed. It makes no sense to me.
what you're saying would make sense if there were literally any successful foreign terran players out there compared to foreign protoss/zerg players
but there aren't
i'm not balance whining because korean terrans are still succeeding, but terran is obviously a much more difficult race for foreigners than protoss and zerg is. so is it really kas' fault when nobody else who doesn't come from korea attains success with the race?
Korean Terrans are HARDLY succeeding.....lol.
The game has major balance flaws hence why a lot of people are quitting. One race is always superior in the grand scheme of things at any point in time.
For a game with only 3 races you think they could get it right. Heck even hearthstorm and DOTA/LOL are more balanced than SC2.
On December 22 2013 07:44 blade55555 wrote: Wait am I wrong but didn't he retire awhile ago?
Nope I think that's Beastyqt
That was Beasty, I miss him too .
I'm confused why he blames David Kim for HIS inability to succeed. It makes no sense to me.
what you're saying would make sense if there were literally any successful foreign terran players out there compared to foreign protoss/zerg players
but there aren't
i'm not balance whining because korean terrans are still succeeding, but terran is obviously a much more difficult race for foreigners than protoss and zerg is. so is it really kas' fault when nobody else who doesn't come from korea attains success with the race?
Korean Terrans are HARDLY succeeding.....lol.
The game has major balance flaws hence why a lot of people are quitting. One race is always superior in the grand scheme of things at any point in time.
For a game with only 3 races you think they could get it right. Heck even hearthstorm and DOTA/LOL are more balanced than SC2.
As someones who's been playing and watching dota since 2005 you're wrong, but it's cute you're trying to look knowledgeable.
Also BW and WC3 both had major design flaws in their races, its nothing new.
On December 22 2013 07:44 blade55555 wrote: Wait am I wrong but didn't he retire awhile ago?
Nope I think that's Beastyqt
That was Beasty, I miss him too .
I'm confused why he blames David Kim for HIS inability to succeed. It makes no sense to me.
what you're saying would make sense if there were literally any successful foreign terran players out there compared to foreign protoss/zerg players
but there aren't
i'm not balance whining because korean terrans are still succeeding, but terran is obviously a much more difficult race for foreigners than protoss and zerg is. so is it really kas' fault when nobody else who doesn't come from korea attains success with the race?
Korean Terrans are HARDLY succeeding.....lol.
The game has major balance flaws hence why a lot of people are quitting. One race is always superior in the grand scheme of things at any point in time.
For a game with only 3 races you think they could get it right. Heck even hearthstorm and DOTA/LOL are more balanced than SC2.
On December 22 2013 16:11 Bagi wrote: I think its inevitable that there will be backlash when you make a race revolve around microing a 55hp unit. Many people like to put the blame on protoss but in my opinion the root of the problem has and always will be the insane design of the race around the marine. Nobody is impressed by marine splits at this point and every game looks the same with the focus on the marine forcing players to constantly attack. The unit is almost infinitely microable, sure, but that comes at the cost of having to balance it around the micro ability of the top 5 terrans in the world, and the rest of them can go suck shit. No alternatives.
Ever since the metagame stabilized mid-WOL there has been an enormous gap between foreigner terrans and top korean terrans, and its all thanks to the design of the race. There's no point playing terran unless you are Taeja. If I had to pick the worst designed race in SC2 I'd give the shit-smeared trophy to terran, and I play the damn race.
The Marine, the MSC, the Infestor, the Sentry, the Phoenix/Corrupter/Viking, the Immortal... these are the units that ruined SC2 in my opinion because they are so poorly designed.
On December 22 2013 08:11 Nerchio wrote: It's not about balance, it's more that everything lies in hands of protoss players (combo of MSC+sentries allows for extreme defense and extreme offense in just a couple of seconds in both PvT and PvZ) and it's frustrating if it's almost your whole life to not be able to control it
As a Protoss, I spoke out at length against the MSC during the HOTS Beta, how it allowed for skill-less defense that would kill every early game Zerg and Terran timing against Protoss... and that new ones would not develop because of how strong it was. Also, because Protoss units are so tanky in comparison, it wouldn't effect PvP as much as the other matchups. For me, it was about giving the game some variety and fun.
And here we are today. It is really sad.
The only thing worse that David Kim could have done would have been releasing the Warhound. Blizzard really needs a new design team. I'm certain I (or many of us that have a clue) could fix many of the design problems with the game, and make it much more fun for both players and spectators. It doesn't take a rocket scientist. Stupid skill-less abilities, gimmicky units, "free units", and hard counters need to go.
On December 22 2013 16:11 Bagi wrote: I think its inevitable that there will be backlash when you make a race revolve around microing a 55hp unit. Many people like to put the blame on protoss but in my opinion the root of the problem has and always will be the insane design of the race around the marine. Nobody is impressed by marine splits at this point and every game looks the same with the focus on the marine forcing players to constantly attack. The unit is almost infinitely microable, sure, but that comes at the cost of having to balance it around the micro ability of the top 5 terrans in the world, and the rest of them can go suck shit. No alternatives.
Ever since the metagame stabilized mid-WOL there has been an enormous gap between foreigner terrans and top korean terrans, and its all thanks to the design of the race. There's no point playing terran unless you are Taeja. If I had to pick the worst designed race in SC2 I'd give the shit-smeared trophy to terran, and I play the damn race.
I agree man.
This is so sad to hear. Kas is one of the great foreign Terrrans. He was one of the first Terrans in WOL to take on Protoss in a full macro game. I'm talking 10 orbitals, mass ghosts, planetaries everywhere.
That said, pros shouldn't balance whine. It trickles down straight to the ladder and then 50% of games is some balance rager.
On December 22 2013 16:11 Bagi wrote: I think its inevitable that there will be backlash when you make a race revolve around microing a 55hp unit. Many people like to put the blame on protoss but in my opinion the root of the problem has and always will be the insane design of the race around the marine. Nobody is impressed by marine splits at this point and every game looks the same with the focus on the marine forcing players to constantly attack. The unit is almost infinitely microable, sure, but that comes at the cost of having to balance it around the micro ability of the top 5 terrans in the world, and the rest of them can go suck shit. No alternatives.
Ever since the metagame stabilized mid-WOL there has been an enormous gap between foreigner terrans and top korean terrans, and its all thanks to the design of the race. There's no point playing terran unless you are Taeja. If I had to pick the worst designed race in SC2 I'd give the shit-smeared trophy to terran, and I play the damn race.
Two ways to look at it. Terran are ruined because they have the Marine, or other races are ruined because they don't. I prefer high glass ceilings. I would rather each race was balanced around their Marines.
On December 22 2013 16:11 Bagi wrote: That said, pros shouldn't balance whine. It trickles down straight to the ladder and then 50% of games is some balance rager.
Blizzard aren't God, and SC2 isn't chess. It is not only possible, but probable, that numerous aspects of the game are imbalanced. Seeing as how the pros' careers hinge on the game being at the very least balanced, they should absolutely be up front about what they think is wrong with the game. It's Blizzard's job to tell the regular whine from concerns that are legitimate, and then fix the concerns that are legitimate.
Sad. Another good foreign BW player calls it quits. : / With so many people complaining about the state of the game and retiring, one might wonder if there's some truth in it?
If he retires, Blizzard needs to just fucking get him and a few other pros on the Design/Balance team so they actually release patches that make some sense for the first time in ages
Hilarious how the large majority of this thread revolves around balance and doesn't really talk about Kas retiring. Anyways, this isn't a for sure thing, and balance is relatively fine and still being worked on. No point wasting time crying over milk that isn't even spilled, but still in the bottle, sitting fine and waiting to give our bodies delicious nutrition.
I'd have honestly thought protoss players would be retiring now, having just played tvp 16 times in a row the only thing I can imagine that would be worse would be 16 pvps in a row.
On December 22 2013 16:53 Shinta) wrote: Hilarious how the large majority of this thread revolves around balance and doesn't really talk about Kas retiring. Anyways, this isn't a for sure thing, and balance is relatively fine and still being worked on. No point wasting time crying over milk that isn't even spilled, but still in the bottle, sitting fine and waiting to give our bodies delicious nutrition.
This is SC2 General
99% of threads either end up being about Kespa, cataclysms, balance discussion, or Mvp
On December 22 2013 16:53 Shinta) wrote: Hilarious how the large majority of this thread revolves around balance and doesn't really talk about Kas retiring. Anyways, this isn't a for sure thing, and balance is relatively fine and still being worked on. No point wasting time crying over milk that isn't even spilled, but still in the bottle, sitting fine and waiting to give our bodies delicious nutrition.
Thats what happens when a prominent foreign Terran decides to throw TL the ultimate bone and retire. A foreign Terran retiring is usually flame bait for a balance discussion, but Kas wanted to raise the bar. So he also threw in a quick whine about balance. I don't know how you can act surprised when Kas probably intended for his own retirement thread to be derailed.
On December 22 2013 16:11 Bagi wrote: That said, pros shouldn't balance whine. It trickles down straight to the ladder and then 50% of games is some balance rager.
Blizzard aren't God, and SC2 isn't chess. It is not only possible, but probable, that numerous aspects of the game are imbalanced. Seeing as how the pros' careers hinge on the game being at the very least balanced, they should absolutely be up front about what they think is wrong with the game. It's Blizzard's job to tell the regular whine from concerns that are legitimate, and then fix the concerns that are legitimate.
Blizzard has no way to do that until they get pro input. There should be an application process and it should be open to the public eye. Maybe get 3 pros from each race. Unlikely to happen, but hey, one can dream.
On December 22 2013 16:11 Bagi wrote: That said, pros shouldn't balance whine. It trickles down straight to the ladder and then 50% of games is some balance rager.
Blizzard aren't God, and SC2 isn't chess. It is not only possible, but probable, that numerous aspects of the game are imbalanced. Seeing as how the pros' careers hinge on the game being at the very least balanced, they should absolutely be up front about what they think is wrong with the game. It's Blizzard's job to tell the regular whine from concerns that are legitimate, and then fix the concerns that are legitimate.
Blizzard has no way to do that until they get pro input. There should be an application process and it should be open to the public eye. Maybe get 3 pros from each race. Unlikely to happen, but hey, one can dream.
On December 22 2013 07:44 blade55555 wrote: Wait am I wrong but didn't he retire awhile ago?
Nope I think that's Beastyqt
That was Beasty, I miss him too .
I'm confused why he blames David Kim for HIS inability to succeed. It makes no sense to me.
what you're saying would make sense if there were literally any successful foreign terran players out there compared to foreign protoss/zerg players
but there aren't
i'm not balance whining because korean terrans are still succeeding, but terran is obviously a much more difficult race for foreigners than protoss and zerg is. so is it really kas' fault when nobody else who doesn't come from korea attains success with the race?
Korean Terrans are HARDLY succeeding.....lol.
The game has major balance flaws hence why a lot of people are quitting. One race is always superior in the grand scheme of things at any point in time.
For a game with only 3 races you think they could get it right. Heck even hearthstorm and DOTA/LOL are more balanced than SC2.
On December 22 2013 07:44 blade55555 wrote: Wait am I wrong but didn't he retire awhile ago?
Nope I think that's Beastyqt
That was Beasty, I miss him too .
I'm confused why he blames David Kim for HIS inability to succeed. It makes no sense to me.
what you're saying would make sense if there were literally any successful foreign terran players out there compared to foreign protoss/zerg players
but there aren't
i'm not balance whining because korean terrans are still succeeding, but terran is obviously a much more difficult race for foreigners than protoss and zerg is. so is it really kas' fault when nobody else who doesn't come from korea attains success with the race?
Korean Terrans are HARDLY succeeding.....lol.
The game has major balance flaws hence why a lot of people are quitting. One race is always superior in the grand scheme of things at any point in time.
For a game with only 3 races you think they could get it right. Heck even hearthstorm and DOTA/LOL are more balanced than SC2.
TvP and TvZ are still imbalanced according to that thread and it is easy to balance a game as long as you have a balance team larger than 2 people.
You honestly can't expect 50% exactly every single month even if the games 100% balanced. You know why? Because a balanced game doesn't = every race wins x % of the time. 1 month might be 55% favoring 1 race, not because of balance but because x race players just played better, then the next month could be complete opposite. Now if it was 60% and always at that then obviously there are problems.
Just expecting it to be at 50% every month is stupid because balance doesn't mean it will always be 50%.
On December 22 2013 16:11 Bagi wrote: That said, pros shouldn't balance whine. It trickles down straight to the ladder and then 50% of games is some balance rager.
Blizzard aren't God, and SC2 isn't chess. It is not only possible, but probable, that numerous aspects of the game are imbalanced. Seeing as how the pros' careers hinge on the game being at the very least balanced, they should absolutely be up front about what they think is wrong with the game. It's Blizzard's job to tell the regular whine from concerns that are legitimate, and then fix the concerns that are legitimate.
Blizzard has no way to do that until they get pro input. There should be an application process and it should be open to the public eye. Maybe get 3 pros from each race. Unlikely to happen, but hey, one can dream.
They get pro input.
Getting pro input is a lot different from the pros making the decisions though. Let the pros vote over potential changes. I mean a lot of these changes by blizz seem so random. If it came down to a vote, you really think the oracles would've got that speed buff? ;d
On December 22 2013 16:11 Bagi wrote: That said, pros shouldn't balance whine. It trickles down straight to the ladder and then 50% of games is some balance rager.
Blizzard aren't God, and SC2 isn't chess. It is not only possible, but probable, that numerous aspects of the game are imbalanced. Seeing as how the pros' careers hinge on the game being at the very least balanced, they should absolutely be up front about what they think is wrong with the game. It's Blizzard's job to tell the regular whine from concerns that are legitimate, and then fix the concerns that are legitimate.
Blizzard has no way to do that until they get pro input. There should be an application process and it should be open to the public eye. Maybe get 3 pros from each race. Unlikely to happen, but hey, one can dream.
They get pro input.
Getting pro input is a lot different from the pros making the decisions though. Let the pros vote over potential changes. I mean a lot of these changes by blizz seem so random. If it came down to a vote, you really think the oracles would've got that speed buff? ;d
can you really count on pro's not to be biased to their own races though?
On December 22 2013 16:53 Shinta) wrote: Hilarious how the large majority of this thread revolves around balance and doesn't really talk about Kas retiring. Anyways, this isn't a for sure thing, and balance is relatively fine and still being worked on. No point wasting time crying over milk that isn't even spilled, but still in the bottle, sitting fine and waiting to give our bodies delicious nutrition.
This is SC2 General
99% of threads either end up being about Kespa, cataclysms, balance discussion, or Mvp
On December 22 2013 16:11 Bagi wrote: That said, pros shouldn't balance whine. It trickles down straight to the ladder and then 50% of games is some balance rager.
Blizzard aren't God, and SC2 isn't chess. It is not only possible, but probable, that numerous aspects of the game are imbalanced. Seeing as how the pros' careers hinge on the game being at the very least balanced, they should absolutely be up front about what they think is wrong with the game. It's Blizzard's job to tell the regular whine from concerns that are legitimate, and then fix the concerns that are legitimate.
Blizzard has no way to do that until they get pro input. There should be an application process and it should be open to the public eye. Maybe get 3 pros from each race. Unlikely to happen, but hey, one can dream.
They get pro input.
Getting pro input is a lot different from the pros making the decisions though. Let the pros vote over potential changes. I mean a lot of these changes by blizz seem so random. If it came down to a vote, you really think the oracles would've got that speed buff? ;d
can you really count on pro's not to be biased to their own races though?
That's why you include players from all races. So, for example, if you're voting about a wm nerf, you have terrans, protoss, and zergs voting. Then you publicize the results of the poll to kill any whining. It would be much harder to balance whine if changes were decided in this manner. you don't like x,y,z change? Too bad. You voted for it. xD
I'm quite shocked. In times where we lack newcomers, all the old players leave us alone against the overwhelming koreans ;_; Another terran and another very good EU player down.
You were one of the first pros I ever met in real life and you were super nice! Gonna miss you!
On December 22 2013 16:53 Shinta) wrote: Hilarious how the large majority of this thread revolves around balance and doesn't really talk about Kas retiring. Anyways, this isn't a for sure thing, and balance is relatively fine and still being worked on. No point wasting time crying over milk that isn't even spilled, but still in the bottle, sitting fine and waiting to give our bodies delicious nutrition.
This is SC2 General
99% of threads either end up being about Kespa, cataclysms, balance discussion, or Mvp
There's a difference between a balanced game and a fun to play game. The game could be perfectly balanced and people could still get tired off it because of the fundamental game design.
Logged in from my vacation spot to agree with nam nam. The game can be balanced around the pro level, but for an below average guy like me, it is not. In BW even if im shit tier, I grit my teeth when I lose, but then I can pick it up and play again, because it felt fun. And when I lost, it was because I had inferior skills. SC2 ceased to be fun in 3 months. I followed BW for 4 years. There is no tension in SC2 matches, in any matchup. At all. No Lurker traps, no intense take downs of Carriers and Goliaths, Nukes feel soft and inferior, no intense air Muta battles, no bated breath of dropship interceptions. Basically, yea, I miss the BW glory days, maybe I'm wishing too much for a game SC2 refuses to emulate. I can respect that, it is following its own path. But it has lost a fan that I was, botching up the ****ing lore so much I cringe as if it was related to common media cesspool that many games are these days.
Good luck to Kas in his future endeavours, and honestly, to all the previously retired players I never posted about.
On December 22 2013 08:18 IAmWithStupid wrote: Dramatic "Noooooo!..."
On the serious note. I'm not sure if Kas will read this comment... If I get new job in January (chances are 80/20), I can provide 500 euros each month for you keep playing... please, contact me (PM) for more details...
Some people don't understand that the problem is the design itself and not the balance.. Think about it, it's really hard to balance a game like that since it's not properly designed from the begining and when people loose 10 games in a row they Tweet stuff like that and whine about balance. David Kim has nothing to do with this, look at the korean pros and how well they play Terran and dominate Zergs and Protoss... I think Kas needs some rest tbh.
On December 22 2013 10:46 pure.Wasted wrote: I don't follow a lot of foreign SC, but I know a lot of BW's best foreign Terrans were Russians. Kas being a Russkie, this is sadder than it should be.
Kas is Ukranian.
I don't mean to speak for all Ukrainians, but many of us self-identify as Russkies in a global context. As someone else pointed out, in this case it was just shorthand for Eastern European.
That's terrible short-hand. Estonians, Hungarians, Romanians, and many other Eastern Europeans have no slavic connection. In fact, the term Eastern European is something that people should stop using, unless you want us to use the equally vague term: American for Canada, US, Mexico, and all of the South American countries like Brazil, Chile, Venezuela. They're just the same, aren't they...
On the topic at hand, it's sad to see Kas retire. He played well, and played a ton for a long time. And it's true, the foreigner terran scene is dead. - whether he retires or not. In fact, outside of top-5 Korean terran, the race might be dead too.
On December 22 2013 16:53 Shinta) wrote: Hilarious how the large majority of this thread revolves around balance and doesn't really talk about Kas retiring. Anyways, this isn't a for sure thing, and balance is relatively fine and still being worked on. No point wasting time crying over milk that isn't even spilled, but still in the bottle, sitting fine and waiting to give our bodies delicious nutrition.
This is SC2 General
99% of threads either end up being about Kespa, cataclysms, balance discussion, or Mvp
On December 22 2013 18:51 cutler wrote: funny how many people think that Kas is not that known..he and happy are the most active terran players on EU ladder ( okay forgg^^)
sad to see him go...he played a massive amount of games. I always liked his playstyle. I never managed to play this much on a day...30 Matches...^^
MMA too is active on EU ladder since he did the WCS Europe I think ^^
I feel sad for kas and hope he does well in the future.
On December 22 2013 08:22 Heat_023 wrote: Everytime I tune in to a stream, especially a terran one, I can see tons of flaws in the games that I see played. These european terran players in particular, I feel, can't admit that their mechanical shortcomings make them lose games they wouldn't have otherwise, so they find all sorts of excuses within the design of the game so that they don't have to look at themselves. At least it always feels like that to me.
The problem is, their mechanics are as good as their opponent's. It's just that terran is more demanding. And that's why you have less terrans in GM and higher, and that's why more and more terran are quitting the game.
This is a huge design problem, protoss (and zerg to a lesser extent) should have a higher skill cap and less "easy to use" units (like colossi, archon, zealot, voidrays, DTs,... those units require little control yet are extremely powerful)
On December 22 2013 10:46 pure.Wasted wrote: I don't follow a lot of foreign SC, but I know a lot of BW's best foreign Terrans were Russians. Kas being a Russkie, this is sadder than it should be.
Kas is Ukranian.
I don't mean to speak for all Ukrainians, but many of us self-identify as Russkies in a global context. As someone else pointed out, in this case it was just shorthand for Eastern European.
That's terrible short-hand. Estonians, Hungarians, Romanians, and many other Eastern Europeans have no slavic connection. In fact, the term Eastern European is something that people should stop using, unless you want us to use the equally vague term: American for Canada, US, Mexico, and all of the South American countries like Brazil, Chile, Venezuela. They're just the same, aren't they...
On the topic at hand, it's sad to see Kas retire. He played well, and played a ton for a long time. And it's true, the foreigner terran scene is dead. - whether he retires or not. In fact, outside of top-5 Korean terran, the race might be dead too.
On December 22 2013 16:53 Shinta) wrote: Hilarious how the large majority of this thread revolves around balance and doesn't really talk about Kas retiring. Anyways, this isn't a for sure thing, and balance is relatively fine and still being worked on. No point wasting time crying over milk that isn't even spilled, but still in the bottle, sitting fine and waiting to give our bodies delicious nutrition.
This is SC2 General
99% of threads either end up being about Kespa, cataclysms, balance discussion, or Mvp
On December 22 2013 16:53 Shinta) wrote: Hilarious how the large majority of this thread revolves around balance and doesn't really talk about Kas retiring. Anyways, this isn't a for sure thing, and balance is relatively fine and still being worked on. No point wasting time crying over milk that isn't even spilled, but still in the bottle, sitting fine and waiting to give our bodies delicious nutrition.
This is SC2 General
99% of threads either end up being about Kespa, cataclysms, balance discussion, or Mvp
On December 22 2013 16:53 Shinta) wrote: Hilarious how the large majority of this thread revolves around balance and doesn't really talk about Kas retiring. Anyways, this isn't a for sure thing, and balance is relatively fine and still being worked on. No point wasting time crying over milk that isn't even spilled, but still in the bottle, sitting fine and waiting to give our bodies delicious nutrition.
This is SC2 General
99% of threads either end up being about Kespa, cataclysms, balance discussion, or Mvp
say what? lol.
It used to be Stephano or Mvp but Stephano is sorta gone now so it's just Mvp
You'd be surprised how many threads end up discussing him
I think what has made alot of pro terrans angry, more angry than other times of imbalance or game issues, is that blizzard recently actively buffed the oracle and nerfed the wm. Especially the oracle buff is impossible to understand for anyone it seems. And its such a kick in the balls to have something like that happen to the game you play 8-10 hours/day. I can imagine anyways. I havent seen anyone on this forum or in any thread actually defend the oracle buff or say its good for the game.
he also hated new maps saying blizzard should ask pros before maps ... i think he not get the point that its a game and they have to master it, not a game made for exactly what they good in ... he was vs everything who was not terran imba so ... as nice as he is, he whines way to much for a player as good as he is
hope still he not retire because he has talent, if he stop complaining and start building ghosts vs templar xD
On December 22 2013 19:41 -NeBu- wrote: Nothing new, Blizzard kill this game, TvP are unplayable for terran, it's a fu**ing joke.
GL in future, Kas!
... thats why taeja won every fuckn tournament and terrans overall has best results right ? god i hate balance whiners
On December 22 2013 19:21 Fjodorov wrote: I think what has made alot of pro terrans angry, more angry than other times of imbalance or game issues, is that blizzard recently actively buffed the oracle and nerfed the wm. Especially the oracle buff is impossible to understand for anyone it seems. And its such a kick in the balls to have something like that happen to the game you play 8-10 hours/day. I can imagine anyways. I havent seen anyone on this forum or in any thread actually defend the oracle buff or say its good for the game.
ok look here "its good for the game" ... how many of the PROS gamers you saw loosing to oracle in recent tournaments ? right ...
On December 22 2013 08:19 peidongyang wrote: Back to the ultra balanced game of warcraft 3... Oh wait...
WC3 aint much of a balanced game , that is for sure.....but I'll take wc3 balance and game design any day over sc2
WC3 design? You mean the endless hero chase with a shitton of random elements in the form of damage variables, crits and items?
SC2 maybe be hugely flawed but WC3 was just broken as a competitive game.
yup , those , and I aint ashamed to say that shit is AWESOME ! it brought aspects to the game which were far superior to anything I was playing back in 2003 , even to this day.
endless hero chase ? its true heroes are the most important units , taking them out will cripple your opponent significantly or even end the game , if that was the case....why did wc3 evolve into the micro master piece it was ? why did it become such a deep rts game ? why not just have every pro game become "catch the hero" ? because the game is far more complex than what you think.
When I say wc3 design , I mean one thing , the better player always won , nightend explains it better in his "grilled" interview , check that out.
Broken as a competitive game my ass....that is just pure ignorance of what the wc3 scene was , the best example is wcg 2012 , for as long as wc3 existed , orc vs UD was considered broken beyond repair , then came TeD and shit on the best orcs in the world to win the title....why ? because he was the better player who had the better strategy.
feel free to disagree , these are my own thoughts as a consumer of both products , nothing more nothing less....just like your comment
On December 22 2013 16:53 Shinta) wrote: Hilarious how the large majority of this thread revolves around balance and doesn't really talk about Kas retiring. Anyways, this isn't a for sure thing, and balance is relatively fine and still being worked on. No point wasting time crying over milk that isn't even spilled, but still in the bottle, sitting fine and waiting to give our bodies delicious nutrition.
This is SC2 General
99% of threads either end up being about Kespa, cataclysms, balance discussion, or Mvp
You forgot Jaedong :D
I'd be more than fine with not having threads about Kespa, cataclysms, balance discussions or MVP.
On December 22 2013 19:43 Drake wrote: he also hated new maps saying blizzard should ask pros before maps ... i think he not get the point that its a game and they have to master it, not a game made for exactly what they good in ... he was vs everything who was not terran imba so ... as nice as he is, he whines way to much for a player as good as he is
hope still he not retire because he has talent, if he stop complaining and start building ghosts vs templar xD
On December 22 2013 19:21 Fjodorov wrote: I think what has made alot of pro terrans angry, more angry than other times of imbalance or game issues, is that blizzard recently actively buffed the oracle and nerfed the wm. Especially the oracle buff is impossible to understand for anyone it seems. And its such a kick in the balls to have something like that happen to the game you play 8-10 hours/day. I can imagine anyways. I havent seen anyone on this forum or in any thread actually defend the oracle buff or say its good for the game.
ok look here "its good for the game" ... how many of the PROS gamers you saw loosing to oracle in recent tournaments ? right ...
Ask yourself who is doing well and, placing high in tournaments and even winning them? Apart from innovation, its the same few terran players since 2 years back who have been winning stuff no matter what state the game is in. Lots of new Protoss stars have had great success in hots but where are all the new terran players, korean or non korean? If it was impossible to win stuff the game and the scene would be destroyed, nobody is saying that. But that doesnt mean its bad. MC was winning GSL when protoss players were extinct. You see?
Ehm ive seen loads of pro games with players losing to oracle. Not that many are straight up death to the oracle but players investing in early ebay, 2 turrets, and still losing 6-10 scvs to ONE oracle is common. This ONE oracle then gives vision in the midgame to the medivacs so drops is impossible. Yeah.. And we havent even begun to talk about blink and current map situation.
Terran is playing WoL TvP with boost on medivacs as the big difference. P are playing hots PvT with oracle, faster DT, MsC which defends against anything pre stim+medivac and also gives blink increased power.
well if the matchup is 50% but one race wins only early game by random all in does it mean the game is balanced? is it fun to play or frustrating? its obvious there are some flaws and blizzard did nothing to fix it
On December 22 2013 20:04 kongoline wrote: well if the matchup is 50% but one race wins only early game by random all in does it mean the game is balanced? is it fun to play or frustrating? its obvious there are some flaws and blizzard did nothing to fix it
On December 22 2013 10:46 pure.Wasted wrote: I don't follow a lot of foreign SC, but I know a lot of BW's best foreign Terrans were Russians. Kas being a Russkie, this is sadder than it should be.
Kas is Ukranian.
I don't mean to speak for all Ukrainians, but many of us self-identify as Russkies in a global context. As someone else pointed out, in this case it was just shorthand for Eastern European.
That's terrible short-hand. Estonians, Hungarians, Romanians, and many other Eastern Europeans have no slavic connection. In fact, the term Eastern European is something that people should stop using, unless you want us to use the equally vague term: American for Canada, US, Mexico, and all of the South American countries like Brazil, Chile, Venezuela. They're just the same, aren't they...
On the topic at hand, it's sad to see Kas retire. He played well, and played a ton for a long time. And it's true, the foreigner terran scene is dead. - whether he retires or not. In fact, outside of top-5 Korean terran, the race might be dead too.
Slavic Eastern European.* Happy?
I don't feel like Russki, still Slavic Eastern European. You got to do better than that.
On topic. I think it has a lot to do with game design not balance. Badly designed game can't/won't be balanced no matter how hard will you try. And I think Kas is not retiring, he needs a break, that is all.
Hate to see him go . Terran just seems too hard for foreigners to master. The race has a lot of potential for sure - just look at Taeja, Innovation and MMA - but you can't ignore the fact that NO foreigner has ever come close to doing what Stephano, Naniwa, Scarlett and foreign zerg/protoss in general has been doing for the whole of HotS.
I wish I could be david kim and dustin browder, it must be incredible to get sooooo much heat and criticism and yet still head to the bank to cash dat check without a worry in the world
On December 22 2013 20:33 elanobissen wrote: Hate to see him go . Terran just seems too hard for foreigners to master. The race has a lot of potential for sure - just look at Taeja, Innovation and MMA - but you can't ignore the fact that NO foreigner has ever come close to doing what Stephano, Naniwa, Scarlett and foreign zerg/protoss in general has been doing for the whole of HotS.
On December 22 2013 08:18 IAmWithStupid wrote: Dramatic "Noooooo!..."
On the serious note. I'm not sure if Kas will read this comment... If I get new job in January (chances are 80/20), I can provide 500 euros each month for you keep playing... please, contact me (PM) for more details...
Sorry for spamming this post. I speak russian or english... Please, contact me! backstory: SC2 is a true passion for me, I was hoping to enter the scene through sponsoring a pro... we can negotiate the terms!
I hope he reads this, or that someone tweets this post at Kas. A very cool offer. And if not, good luck in the future, Kas.
On December 22 2013 21:11 Shikyo wrote: So a ragequit? Good luck for him in the future but if you don't do well while other players of the race do, it's all you.
On December 22 2013 21:11 Shikyo wrote: So a ragequit? Good luck for him in the future but if you don't do well while other players of the race do, it's all you.
I don't think Kas is the kind of person to abandon his job because of a bad losing streak. Hell, that's the man with over 20k games, I'm pretty sure he already had pretty bad ladder session before that.
I don't think Kas is the kind of person to abandon his job because of a bad losing streak. Hell, that's the man with over 20k games, I'm pretty sure he already had pretty bad ladder session before that.
But he's the one usually taking it out on twitter. What might be the case here. Anyway its best to wait for offical statement from his team.
Not the best way to leave the scene, but oh well it is his decision. Shame that the RTS scene is pretty dead now with hardly any recent releases in the genre or any major up and coming titles in the pipeline. Not much out there to switch to unless you one visits an older title. This may make him stay with sc2 despite its flaws.
I'm 70% sure he doesn't really retire. You don't throw away your career out of rage. Besides, he is a pretty good random player, so I'd see him switching race before he actually retired.
On December 22 2013 19:43 Drake wrote: he also hated new maps saying blizzard should ask pros before maps ... i think he not get the point that its a game and they have to master it, not a game made for exactly what they good in ... he was vs everything who was not terran imba so ... as nice as he is, he whines way to much for a player as good as he is
hope still he not retire because he has talent, if he stop complaining and start building ghosts vs templar xD
On December 22 2013 19:41 -NeBu- wrote: Nothing new, Blizzard kill this game, TvP are unplayable for terran, it's a fu**ing joke.
GL in future, Kas!
... thats why taeja won every fuckn tournament and terrans overall has best results right ? god i hate balance whiners
On December 22 2013 19:21 Fjodorov wrote: I think what has made alot of pro terrans angry, more angry than other times of imbalance or game issues, is that blizzard recently actively buffed the oracle and nerfed the wm. Especially the oracle buff is impossible to understand for anyone it seems. And its such a kick in the balls to have something like that happen to the game you play 8-10 hours/day. I can imagine anyways. I havent seen anyone on this forum or in any thread actually defend the oracle buff or say its good for the game.
ok look here "its good for the game" ... how many of the PROS gamers you saw loosing to oracle in recent tournaments ? right ...
Ask yourself who is doing well and, placing high in tournaments and even winning them? Apart from innovation, its the same few terran players since 2 years back who have been winning stuff no matter what state the game is in.
why so much rage recently? When BL-INF was ruling for 1.5 yrs nobody came even close to the state that is today. is this some kind of collective excuse for not improving and winning ez-mode?
+ ladder is a kingdom of BM - "F-U" is the most common response to my 'HF'
It's been pretty much impossible for foreign terrans to succeed since the race got nerfed into the ground over the years. Only top korean pro level is more balanced. Below that, it's insane.
By the way, I switched to toss couple months ago. So you can't say I'm a Terran whiner. I'm officially a protoss player now, until things change.
On December 22 2013 19:43 Drake wrote: he also hated new maps saying blizzard should ask pros before maps ... i think he not get the point that its a game and they have to master it, not a game made for exactly what they good in ... he was vs everything who was not terran imba so ... as nice as he is, he whines way to much for a player as good as he is
hope still he not retire because he has talent, if he stop complaining and start building ghosts vs templar xD
On December 22 2013 19:41 -NeBu- wrote: Nothing new, Blizzard kill this game, TvP are unplayable for terran, it's a fu**ing joke.
GL in future, Kas!
... thats why taeja won every fuckn tournament and terrans overall has best results right ? god i hate balance whiners
On December 22 2013 19:21 Fjodorov wrote: I think what has made alot of pro terrans angry, more angry than other times of imbalance or game issues, is that blizzard recently actively buffed the oracle and nerfed the wm. Especially the oracle buff is impossible to understand for anyone it seems. And its such a kick in the balls to have something like that happen to the game you play 8-10 hours/day. I can imagine anyways. I havent seen anyone on this forum or in any thread actually defend the oracle buff or say its good for the game.
ok look here "its good for the game" ... how many of the PROS gamers you saw loosing to oracle in recent tournaments ? right ...
Ask yourself who is doing well and, placing high in tournaments and even winning them? Apart from innovation, its the same few terran players since 2 years back who have been winning stuff no matter what state the game is in.
On December 23 2013 02:05 pieroog wrote: why so much rage recently? When BL-INF was ruling for 1.5 yrs nobody came even close to the state that is today. is this some kind of collective excuse for not improving and winning ez-mode?
1.5yrs? It was from May 2012 - March 2013. And go ask these Terrans, they all prefers OP BL-INF than TvP now.
On December 23 2013 02:09 Thor.Rush wrote: It's been pretty much impossible for foreign terrans to succeed since the race got nerfed into the ground over the years. Only top korean pro level is more balanced. Below that, it's insane.
By the way, I switched to toss couple months ago. So you can't say I'm a Terran whiner. I'm officially a protoss player now, until things change.
So basically, when Terran had a 60+% win rate it was ok. Terran is allowed to crush face, but the other races can't because that's imbalance? There was a singular point before Blord-festor when the game was literally at near perfect balance, but even then there were terrans complaining about "being nerfed into the ground." If korean terrans can do it, there is no reason why a foreigner terran can't learn from them and improve to that point. There isn't some magical barrier that prevents Kas from practicing 13 hours a day every day.
On December 22 2013 10:12 Nebuchad wrote: "I think RTS isn’t the right type of game for people who quit because they get frustrated."
This from Dear. It's funny because it's both right and wrong. If you get frustrated too much, then you start to lose hope. But if you don't care about losing, then you won't have the sufficient drive to do the things that are needed to start not losing.
This quote applies to anything where you can lose.
On December 23 2013 02:05 pieroog wrote: why so much rage recently? When BL-INF was ruling for 1.5 yrs nobody came even close to the state that is today. is this some kind of collective excuse for not improving and winning ez-mode?
+ ladder is a kingdom of BM - "F-U" is the most common response to my 'HF'
I didn't have any problems with the winfestor days. I could always see why I lost. I would have played a game for 15 minutes, after which I would have to be ready for BL-INF. And if I messed up, i got fungaled. Or something like that. I could always see an opening: I could have counter-dropped, I should have spread better, I should not have sieged my tanks so late, I should have spread my vikings better, etcetera.
But here, I do my opening, scout the protoss, scout he's going blink stalkers and there's nothing I can do to easily counter this cheese, like with all other cheeses. I just plop down bunkers, start making a siege tank and hope I don't lose more than 10 scv's or so. It's infuriating. I don't get the chance to practice my mechanics, I don't get the chance to do what I like to do, I don't get the chance to prepare because I can't do anything against those stalkers when my marines don't have their upgrades. that is why there is so much more hate now.
I completely didn't mine BL-INF. I was in platinum after all, there's so much you can do at that level to improve. But with blink stalkers or oracles, I don't get the chance to improve because of this maddening cheese. I want to play macro TvP's, because they are fun. but those damn protosses won't bloody let me...
On December 22 2013 19:43 Drake wrote: he also hated new maps saying blizzard should ask pros before maps ... i think he not get the point that its a game and they have to master it, not a game made for exactly what they good in ... he was vs everything who was not terran imba so ... as nice as he is, he whines way to much for a player as good as he is
hope still he not retire because he has talent, if he stop complaining and start building ghosts vs templar xD
On December 22 2013 19:41 -NeBu- wrote: Nothing new, Blizzard kill this game, TvP are unplayable for terran, it's a fu**ing joke.
GL in future, Kas!
... thats why taeja won every fuckn tournament and terrans overall has best results right ? god i hate balance whiners
On December 22 2013 19:21 Fjodorov wrote: I think what has made alot of pro terrans angry, more angry than other times of imbalance or game issues, is that blizzard recently actively buffed the oracle and nerfed the wm. Especially the oracle buff is impossible to understand for anyone it seems. And its such a kick in the balls to have something like that happen to the game you play 8-10 hours/day. I can imagine anyways. I havent seen anyone on this forum or in any thread actually defend the oracle buff or say its good for the game.
ok look here "its good for the game" ... how many of the PROS gamers you saw loosing to oracle in recent tournaments ? right ...
Ask yourself who is doing well and, placing high in tournaments and even winning them? Apart from innovation, its the same few terran players since 2 years back who have been winning stuff no matter what state the game is in.
That is awesome, but it was specifically said 'who have been winning stuff no matter what state the game is in'. I still think Maru answers that question since I believe he's referencing players like Taeja/MVP. Thanks for the info though!
Edit: Though if Asia Starcraft League was played on WoL that may count him out :p
I dont' get why people always seperate our korean terran from foreign terrans, if terran is fine in korea, its fine everywhere else. If korean terrans can beat their overpowered korean Protoss foes then why can't foreign terran beat foreign protoss?. Perhaps the problem isnt with balance but with the players.
The only reason why koeans are better than foreigners is work ethic, there is nothing about being korean that makes u better at starcraft, only the methods they use to train. So basically if you are saying that terran is fine if ur Taeja but not if ur anyone else, the reality of your statement is that you just don't work heard enough. Thats the difference, you aren't as good as your opponents. If Korean terrans can make it work, consistently, and you can't.... its because they are better than you. So maybe instead of blaming balance and David Kim, try looking in a mirror and see that YOU are the problem.
I doubt Taeja gets up in the morning and thinks "I wish David Kim would make my race more powerful so I can put in less practice", no he gets up and practices so fucking hard that even if the race is underpowered, he is sooooo much better than his opponents mechanically, strategically and physically that it doesn't matter. Thats why champions do, they don't bitch and whine.... they work harder than everyone else.
Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Kobe Bryant, David Beckham. What do all those names have in common? They are all considered thet best of their era in their respective sports, ask any of them what made them the best and they will all tell you the same thing, I worked three times harder than anyone else.
On December 23 2013 02:05 pieroog wrote: why so much rage recently? When BL-INF was ruling for 1.5 yrs nobody came even close to the state that is today. is this some kind of collective excuse for not improving and winning ez-mode?
+ ladder is a kingdom of BM - "F-U" is the most common response to my 'HF'
I didn't have any problems with the winfestor days. I could always see why I lost. I would have played a game for 15 minutes, after which I would have to be ready for BL-INF. And if I messed up, i got fungaled. Or something like that. I could always see an opening: I could have counter-dropped, I should have spread better, I should not have sieged my tanks so late, I should have spread my vikings better, etcetera.
But here, I do my opening, scout the protoss, scout he's going blink stalkers and there's nothing I can do to easily counter this cheese, like with all other cheeses. I just plop down bunkers, start making a siege tank and hope I don't lose more than 10 scv's or so. It's infuriating. I don't get the chance to practice my mechanics, I don't get the chance to do what I like to do, I don't get the chance to prepare because I can't do anything against those stalkers when my marines don't have their upgrades. that is why there is so much more hate now.
I completely didn't mine BL-INF. I was in platinum after all, there's so much you can do at that level to improve. But with blink stalkers or oracles, I don't get the chance to improve because of this maddening cheese. I want to play macro TvP's, because they are fun. but those damn protosses won't bloody let me...
Same for me. I was diamond in WoL and while TvZ was hard it wasn't nearly as frustrating as TvP is today. You could always learn something from these macro TvZ's. You realized that you were too passive and weren't actively denying hatcheries and stuff. Maybe BL/Infestor was imbalanced at pro level, at my level of play it wasn't. Good positioning with your vikings could deal with the zerg deathball and if it wasn't enough you could always see in which phase you lost control of the game.
TvP (again: at my level of play!) nowadays is praying that you get into the midgame without playing from ridiculously far behind. Protoss openers come with no risk at all even proxy strategies aren't affected at all when scouted. Terran can die so easily in the early game even if prepared for your opponents strategy. And when watching the replay you get mad, because the protoss cut so many corners and didn't scout any of your tech. You realize that he'd be absolutely screwed if i just went for a different strategy. Unfortunately i can not reactively allin him (besides the SCV pull), while the protoss can if he spots a weakness in my build. The matchup feels like a giant coin-flip to me.
On December 23 2013 02:36 emythrel wrote: I dont' get why people always seperate our korean terran from foreign terrans, if terran is fine in korea, its fine everywhere else. If korean terrans can beat their overpowered korean Protoss foes then why can't foreign terran beat foreign protoss?. Perhaps the problem isnt with balance but with the players.
The only reason why koeans are better than foreigners is work ethic, there is nothing about being korean that makes u better at starcraft, only the methods they use to train. So basically if you are saying that terran is fine if ur Taeja but not if ur anyone else, the reality of your statement is that you just don't work heard enough. Thats the difference, you aren't as good as your opponents. If Korean terrans can make it work, consistently, and you can't.... its because they are better than you. So maybe instead of blaming balance and David Kim, try looking in a mirror and see that YOU are the problem.
I doubt Taeja gets up in the morning and thinks "I wish David Kim would make my race more powerful so I can put in less practice", no he gets up and practices so fucking hard that even if the race is underpowered, he is sooooo much better than his opponents mechanically, strategically and physically that it doesn't matter. Thats why champions do, they don't bitch and whine.... they work harder than everyone else.
Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Kobe Bryant, David Beckham. What do all those names have in common? They are all considered thet best of their era in their respective sports, ask any of them what made them the best and they will all tell you the same thing, I worked three times harder than anyone else.
Thats just right. If the foreign players would put more work into the game, they would get more success. It has nothing to do with genetics of koreans or anything else. Also the race is not underpowered. Foreign Zergs are also worse than Korean Zergs and its not because of their race is underpowered, they are just not good enough.
That's unfortunate, Kas was one of the best foreing Terrans (one could maybe even argue THE best), I hope he calms down or at least comes back as soon as PvT swings back to a more balanced state.
On December 23 2013 02:36 emythrel wrote: I dont' get why people always seperate our korean terran from foreign terrans, if terran is fine in korea, its fine everywhere else. If korean terrans can beat their overpowered korean Protoss foes then why can't foreign terran beat foreign protoss?. Perhaps the problem isnt with balance but with the players.
The only reason why koeans are better than foreigners is work ethic, there is nothing about being korean that makes u better at starcraft, only the methods they use to train. So basically if you are saying that terran is fine if ur Taeja but not if ur anyone else, the reality of your statement is that you just don't work heard enough. Thats the difference, you aren't as good as your opponents. If Korean terrans can make it work, consistently, and you can't.... its because they are better than you. So maybe instead of blaming balance and David Kim, try looking in a mirror and see that YOU are the problem.
I doubt Taeja gets up in the morning and thinks "I wish David Kim would make my race more powerful so I can put in less practice", no he gets up and practices so fucking hard that even if the race is underpowered, he is sooooo much better than his opponents mechanically, strategically and physically that it doesn't matter. Thats why champions do, they don't bitch and whine.... they work harder than everyone else.
Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Kobe Bryant, David Beckham. What do all those names have in common? They are all considered thet best of their era in their respective sports, ask any of them what made them the best and they will all tell you the same thing, I worked three times harder than anyone else.
While I want to agree with you, do we actually have any data on the amount of ladder games played per day for Taeja vs Kas (for example)? Because I hear everyone saying it, but I never see any data to back the claims up that koreans practice more than foreigners. For example, TLO has said multiple times on twitter that he is aiming for 35-40 ladder games per day. I doubt you can get any more games in a day since then you're already playing non-stop for 10 hours, without dinner, bathroom breaks or queueing for a match (40 games * 15 minutes / 60 minutes = 10 hours). Yet he's not as good as Innovation or Soulkey.
That said, korean terrans vs foreigner terrans is completely useless in the argument against protoss. Protoss isn't imbalanced, it just isn't fun because of the cheesiness. Which I think is why 90% of the people here are complaining (including me)
On December 23 2013 02:36 emythrel wrote: I dont' get why people always seperate our korean terran from foreign terrans, if terran is fine in korea, its fine everywhere else. If korean terrans can beat their overpowered korean Protoss foes then why can't foreign terran beat foreign protoss?. Perhaps the problem isnt with balance but with the players.
The only reason why koeans are better than foreigners is work ethic, there is nothing about being korean that makes u better at starcraft, only the methods they use to train. So basically if you are saying that terran is fine if ur Taeja but not if ur anyone else, the reality of your statement is that you just don't work heard enough. Thats the difference, you aren't as good as your opponents. If Korean terrans can make it work, consistently, and you can't.... its because they are better than you. So maybe instead of blaming balance and David Kim, try looking in a mirror and see that YOU are the problem.
I doubt Taeja gets up in the morning and thinks "I wish David Kim would make my race more powerful so I can put in less practice", no he gets up and practices so fucking hard that even if the race is underpowered, he is sooooo much better than his opponents mechanically, strategically and physically that it doesn't matter. Thats why champions do, they don't bitch and whine.... they work harder than everyone else.
Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Kobe Bryant, David Beckham. What do all those names have in common? They are all considered thet best of their era in their respective sports, ask any of them what made them the best and they will all tell you the same thing, I worked three times harder than anyone else.
While I want to agree with you, do we actually have any data on the amount of ladder games played per day for Taeja vs Kas (for example)? Because I hear everyone saying it, but I never see any data to back the claims up that koreans practice more than foreigners. For example, TLO has said multiple times on twitter that he is aiming for 35-40 ladder games per day. I doubt you can get any more games in a day since then you're already playing non-stop for 10 hours, without dinner, bathroom breaks or queueing for a match (40 games * 15 minutes / 60 minutes = 10 hours). Yet he's not as good as Innovation or Soulkey.
That said, korean terrans vs foreigner terrans is completely useless in the argument against protoss. Protoss isn't imbalanced, it just isn't fun because of the cheesiness. Which I think is why 90% of the people here are complaining (including me)
There is more to practise than just quantity. Also, playing games isn't all it takes to get better at Starcraft, despite the large amount of people thinking that more games always equals more skill.
On December 23 2013 02:36 emythrel wrote: I dont' get why people always seperate our korean terran from foreign terrans, if terran is fine in korea, its fine everywhere else. If korean terrans can beat their overpowered korean Protoss foes then why can't foreign terran beat foreign protoss?. Perhaps the problem isnt with balance but with the players.
The only reason why koeans are better than foreigners is work ethic, there is nothing about being korean that makes u better at starcraft, only the methods they use to train. So basically if you are saying that terran is fine if ur Taeja but not if ur anyone else, the reality of your statement is that you just don't work heard enough. Thats the difference, you aren't as good as your opponents. If Korean terrans can make it work, consistently, and you can't.... its because they are better than you. So maybe instead of blaming balance and David Kim, try looking in a mirror and see that YOU are the problem.
I doubt Taeja gets up in the morning and thinks "I wish David Kim would make my race more powerful so I can put in less practice", no he gets up and practices so fucking hard that even if the race is underpowered, he is sooooo much better than his opponents mechanically, strategically and physically that it doesn't matter. Thats why champions do, they don't bitch and whine.... they work harder than everyone else.
Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Kobe Bryant, David Beckham. What do all those names have in common? They are all considered thet best of their era in their respective sports, ask any of them what made them the best and they will all tell you the same thing, I worked three times harder than anyone else.
While I want to agree with you, do we actually have any data on the amount of ladder games played per day for Taeja vs Kas (for example)? Because I hear everyone saying it, but I never see any data to back the claims up that koreans practice more than foreigners. For example, TLO has said multiple times on twitter that he is aiming for 35-40 ladder games per day. I doubt you can get any more games in a day since then you're already playing non-stop for 10 hours, without dinner, bathroom breaks or queueing for a match (40 games * 15 minutes / 60 minutes = 10 hours). Yet he's not as good as Innovation or Soulkey.
That said, korean terrans vs foreigner terrans is completely useless in the argument against protoss. Protoss isn't imbalanced, it just isn't fun because of the cheesiness. Which I think is why 90% of the people here are complaining (including me)
There is more to practise than just quantity. Also, playing games isn't all it takes to get better at Starcraft, despite the large amount of people thinking that more games always equals more skill.
lol if more games meant more skill Kas wouldve become a millionaire playing sc2.
On December 23 2013 02:36 emythrel wrote: I dont' get why people always seperate our korean terran from foreign terrans, if terran is fine in korea, its fine everywhere else. If korean terrans can beat their overpowered korean Protoss foes then why can't foreign terran beat foreign protoss?. Perhaps the problem isnt with balance but with the players.
The only reason why koeans are better than foreigners is work ethic, there is nothing about being korean that makes u better at starcraft, only the methods they use to train. So basically if you are saying that terran is fine if ur Taeja but not if ur anyone else, the reality of your statement is that you just don't work heard enough. Thats the difference, you aren't as good as your opponents. If Korean terrans can make it work, consistently, and you can't.... its because they are better than you. So maybe instead of blaming balance and David Kim, try looking in a mirror and see that YOU are the problem.
I doubt Taeja gets up in the morning and thinks "I wish David Kim would make my race more powerful so I can put in less practice", no he gets up and practices so fucking hard that even if the race is underpowered, he is sooooo much better than his opponents mechanically, strategically and physically that it doesn't matter. Thats why champions do, they don't bitch and whine.... they work harder than everyone else.
Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Kobe Bryant, David Beckham. What do all those names have in common? They are all considered thet best of their era in their respective sports, ask any of them what made them the best and they will all tell you the same thing, I worked three times harder than anyone else.
Ok, so SC2 has been out for 3 years now you still didn't understand that terran has to have perfect micro management and get the most out of his units to be on EQUAL GROUNDS against his protoss opponent?
Let me try to explain it to you: Almost every terran unit has a huge micro potential. Players like TaeJa, INnoVatioN, Polt, MMA or Maru are so incredibly good they can use marines and marauders with, lets say, 95% maximum efficiency, dropping everywhere, dodging every single storm and shit like that. On the other hand, protoss units do not have this kind of potential, no one can deny that fact. Imagine an army of colossi, stalker, chargelot and archons. Every single GM Protoss is able to use this army with the exact same efficiency. There are no differences betwen the colossi shots of iNcontrol and MaximusBlack and the ones of sOs, Rain, or Dear. They are all used on their maximum efficiency, by default, with no special micro skill involved.
Now you might be asking yourself, "Ok, I understand your point, but where is the problem?"
Well, the problem is: The game is balanced around the very best, which means both Terran and Protoss should be using their units at maximum efficiency. What does that mean? It's simple. The game is balanced around a TaeJa-tier micro from the terran player, in which you can have the most efficient units AND a simple micro from the protoss opponent, in which you also have the most efficient unit usage. (because protoss units do not have micro potential).
Why are the top level TvPs considered balanced? Because you have top tier terrans performing miracle engages with their units.\ Why are the lower level TvPs (top foreign level) considered so imbalanced? Because lower tier terrans do not have the same efficiency with their units, unlike their lower tier protoss opponents, which still have a high efficiency with their units.
That is the problem. Protoss units do not have micro potential, they are all efficient by default, while terran units have their efficiency grown as the player's skill goes up.
On December 23 2013 02:36 emythrel wrote: I dont' get why people always seperate our korean terran from foreign terrans, if terran is fine in korea, its fine everywhere else. If korean terrans can beat their overpowered korean Protoss foes then why can't foreign terran beat foreign protoss?. Perhaps the problem isnt with balance but with the players.
The only reason why koeans are better than foreigners is work ethic, there is nothing about being korean that makes u better at starcraft, only the methods they use to train. So basically if you are saying that terran is fine if ur Taeja but not if ur anyone else, the reality of your statement is that you just don't work heard enough. Thats the difference, you aren't as good as your opponents. If Korean terrans can make it work, consistently, and you can't.... its because they are better than you. So maybe instead of blaming balance and David Kim, try looking in a mirror and see that YOU are the problem.
I doubt Taeja gets up in the morning and thinks "I wish David Kim would make my race more powerful so I can put in less practice", no he gets up and practices so fucking hard that even if the race is underpowered, he is sooooo much better than his opponents mechanically, strategically and physically that it doesn't matter. Thats why champions do, they don't bitch and whine.... they work harder than everyone else.
Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Kobe Bryant, David Beckham. What do all those names have in common? They are all considered thet best of their era in their respective sports, ask any of them what made them the best and they will all tell you the same thing, I worked three times harder than anyone else.
Regarding Korean players vs Non-Korean players, the practice environment also plays a huge role, whether you are living at home or at a team house with team mates and staff to support you. Only few players manage to perform at a top level while practicing from home, in fact the only player I can recall doing that is Taeja.
While I agree that Protoss units are, by default, more efficient than the backbone of the Terran army, saying that there is no difference in army control between MaximusBlack and sOs/Dear is both insulting and ignorant. Of course there is. If you watched Starcraft back when Rain was the god of PvP, he won his PvPs through unparallelled positioning and army control. He could have the exact same army as his opponent and still win a fight convincingly the majority of the time. If all Protoss units are already as good as they can be by default, how do you think this could happen?
While I agree that Protoss units are, by default, more efficient than the backbone of the Terran army, saying that there is no difference in army control between MaximusBlack and sOs/Dear is both insulting and ignorant. Of course there is. If you watched Starcraft back when Rain was the god of PvP, he won his PvPs through unparallelled positioning and army control. He could have the exact same army as his opponent and still win a fight convincingly the majority of the time. If all Protoss units are already as good as they can be by default, how do you think this could happen?
Of course there is a difference. But still, not relevant enough if you compare the difference betwen the efficiency of best terrans and the average joe on mid GM.
While I agree that Protoss units are, by default, more efficient than the backbone of the Terran army, saying that there is no difference in army control between MaximusBlack and sOs/Dear is both insulting and ignorant. Of course there is. If you watched Starcraft back when Rain was the god of PvP, he won his PvPs through unparallelled positioning and army control. He could have the exact same army as his opponent and still win a fight convincingly the majority of the time. If all Protoss units are already as good as they can be by default, how do you think this could happen?
Yep. Heck, even Naniwa does things with VRs that most other Protoss players are not able to do. The top level Protoss players have really good army control and really value their units (as they should as Protoss is about strong and tough but expensive units). It is just not very visible when you watch it, but it is there when you look for it. I can't comment on whether it is comparable to Terran micro etc but to say there is no difference between GM Toss and top level Toss is absurd.
While I agree that Protoss units are, by default, more efficient than the backbone of the Terran army, saying that there is no difference in army control between MaximusBlack and sOs/Dear is both insulting and ignorant. Of course there is. If you watched Starcraft back when Rain was the god of PvP, he won his PvPs through unparallelled positioning and army control. He could have the exact same army as his opponent and still win a fight convincingly the majority of the time. If all Protoss units are already as good as they can be by default, how do you think this could happen?
While I agree that theres a difference between lowtier protoss players and the very best, the difference is much much smaller than between a midtier terran and taeja.
And Rain was the god of PvP partly because people kept attacking into him.
On December 23 2013 02:09 Thor.Rush wrote: It's been pretty much impossible for foreign terrans to succeed since the race got nerfed into the ground over the years. Only top korean pro level is more balanced. Below that, it's insane.
By the way, I switched to toss couple months ago. So you can't say I'm a Terran whiner. I'm officially a protoss player now, until things change.
So basically, when Terran had a 60+% win rate it was ok. Terran is allowed to crush face, but the other races can't because that's imbalance? There was a singular point before Blord-festor when the game was literally at near perfect balance, but even then there were terrans complaining about "being nerfed into the ground." If korean terrans can do it, there is no reason why a foreigner terran can't learn from them and improve to that point. There isn't some magical barrier that prevents Kas from practicing 13 hours a day every day.
No. Just because T was OP (due to the dumb maps more than anything) on release doesn't excuse every imbalance against T afterwards. Just because Korean Ts CAN win TvP doesn't make it OK. Just like the fact Korean Ts COULD win vs BL/Infestor didn't make it ok either.
On December 23 2013 05:14 TronJovolta wrote: Wow, even the bloodythirsty mods of TL can't give temp bans and warnings for all the "balance whine" happening here. Hahaha.
Because it's probably not whine but balance discussion with concret arguments.
On December 23 2013 05:14 TronJovolta wrote: Wow, even the bloodythirsty mods of TL can't give temp bans and warnings for all the "balance whine" happening here. Hahaha.
Because it's probably not whine but balance discussion with concret arguments.
Depends on who is making them. The folks arguing that Dear and SoS don't micro much more than players like MaximusBlack are pretty whiny and dumb.
While I agree that Protoss units are, by default, more efficient than the backbone of the Terran army, saying that there is no difference in army control between MaximusBlack and sOs/Dear is both insulting and ignorant. Of course there is. If you watched Starcraft back when Rain was the god of PvP, he won his PvPs through unparallelled positioning and army control. He could have the exact same army as his opponent and still win a fight convincingly the majority of the time. If all Protoss units are already as good as they can be by default, how do you think this could happen?
While I agree that theres a difference between lowtier protoss players and the very best, the difference is much much smaller than between a midtier terran and taeja.
And Rain was the god of PvP partly because people kept attacking into him.
Yeah that difference is small which is why the Protoss race has consistently only been dominated by a handful of Toss at any given length of time. The bias is so overwhelming I can't help but lose faith in humanity.
I enjoy all the hate. Makes me feel like I'm playing a strong race. It makes all those times when balance WASNT(you know, all of WoL) in favor of Toss feel justified.
EPT
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/I6NqVQB.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8weEe43.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TUwTKZL.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wm25uXJ.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/a8nBiiB.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/87UbzrA.png)
now plz teach me how to say I like Peter Forsberg.
![[image loading]](http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/4422/images/TL/history%20of%20tvz/TvsZ3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/4422/images/TL/history%20of%20tvz/TvsZ5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/4422/images/TL/history%20of%20tvz/TvsZ7.jpg)
As someone else pointed out, in this case it was just shorthand for Eastern European.
