|
On December 22 2013 11:02 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 10:54 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2013 10:52 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 22 2013 10:35 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 10:31 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 22 2013 10:24 Zealously wrote:On December 22 2013 10:21 goody153 wrote:On December 22 2013 10:09 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2013 10:03 OutlaW- wrote:On December 22 2013 10:01 NovemberstOrm wrote:[quote] SourceFrom a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this. Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors. Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand. On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This is about the worst way to go out. I disagree. Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did. lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once .. Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time? No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims? Actually its not bs at all. If you look at interviews from when he had recently started playing sc2 professionally, he said protoss was op in many ways in his opinion. Later on he said he "regretted not choosing protoss (something he considered)" when he switched. While he may no longer consider protoss op and that it just fits hist style more, he referred back to a time in which he did consider the race op. Can you provide a link to that interview like people requested? Because I read it and he didn't say that at all from what I remember. Look it up yourself. If you disagree then im obviously right ^^
That is however not how the world spins.
I could call you for being green monkey who eats red bananas. Then that is not true until you prove me wrong, it is false until I prove it right.
You cant claim that someone has said something and then argue it being true until someone proves it false. Just stupid logic.
Sorry.
|
On December 22 2013 11:05 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:01 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 10:52 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 22 2013 10:35 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 10:31 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 22 2013 10:24 Zealously wrote:On December 22 2013 10:21 goody153 wrote:On December 22 2013 10:09 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2013 10:03 OutlaW- wrote:On December 22 2013 10:01 NovemberstOrm wrote:[quote] SourceFrom a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this. Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors. Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand. On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This is about the worst way to go out. I disagree. Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did. lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once .. Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time? No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims? Actually its not bs at all. If you look at interviews from when he had recently started playing sc2 professionally, he said protoss was op in many ways in his opinion. Later on he said he "regretted not choosing protoss (something he considered)" when he switched. While he may no longer consider protoss op and that it just fits hist style more, he referred back to a time in which he did consider the race op. Pros call other races OP all the time. There is nothing special about that. What I was, and still am, calling BS is your statements about Flash calling FF and WG being OP etc, and he wanted to switch because he thought Protoss was OP and not because he thought he suited his defensive play style. Sounds to me like you don't remember the interview well (if we are speaking of the same one a couple of months ago) and are putting words into his mouth. Yes and in those interviews he said he considered switching to protoss when he STARTED his sc2 career and that he partly regretted it. And if we look at interviews from when he STARTED his sc2 career... you get the picture. I never said he called protoss op a few months ago.
No, I don't get the picture. But, I am satisfied you are talking out of your arse. Thanks.
|
On December 22 2013 11:04 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote:
Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about. This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design.
imo just terran needs a buff to their options, therefore making mech viable
|
United Kingdom50293 Posts
On December 22 2013 10:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 10:40 Shellshock wrote:On December 22 2013 10:39 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 10:35 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 10:31 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 22 2013 10:24 Zealously wrote:On December 22 2013 10:21 goody153 wrote:On December 22 2013 10:09 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2013 10:03 OutlaW- wrote:On December 22 2013 10:01 NovemberstOrm wrote:[quote] SourceFrom a recent interview by Dear. I wish more people looked at the game like this. Starcraft has many factors to being good then just playing many games, mindset is one of the hugest factors. Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset? Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this? No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand. On December 22 2013 10:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This is about the worst way to go out. I disagree. Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did. lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once .. Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time? No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims? That's total BS. Flash wanted to play Protoss cause it fit his playstyle more. Isn't that what he said? or were you responding to the guy he quoted? I believe he was affirming that Snusmumriken's claim was total BS.
On another note didn't bisu say the opposite, that he wanted to switch to terran but he decided to try to stay protoss for his fans. Just thought it could be put out there
|
On December 22 2013 11:07 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 10:42 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2013 10:40 Shellshock wrote:On December 22 2013 10:39 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 10:35 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 10:31 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 22 2013 10:24 Zealously wrote:On December 22 2013 10:21 goody153 wrote:On December 22 2013 10:09 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2013 10:03 OutlaW- wrote:
[quote]
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset?
Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this?
No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
[quote]
I disagree. Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did. lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once .. Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time? No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims? That's total BS. Flash wanted to play Protoss cause it fit his playstyle more. Isn't that what he said? or were you responding to the guy he quoted? I believe he was affirming that Snusmumriken's claim was total BS. On another note didn't bisu say the opposite, that he wanted to switch to terran but he decided to try to stay protoss for his fans. Just thought it could be put out there
I thought it was someone saying that Bisu had really really good Terran, but didn't switch, I'm not sure what the reason was. I don't think Bisu said it?
|
On December 22 2013 11:07 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 10:42 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2013 10:40 Shellshock wrote:On December 22 2013 10:39 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 10:35 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 10:31 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 22 2013 10:24 Zealously wrote:On December 22 2013 10:21 goody153 wrote:On December 22 2013 10:09 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2013 10:03 OutlaW- wrote:
[quote]
Mindset? Kas had a shitty mindset?
Did you have to endure what he did? Did you play the game 30-40 games every day? Were you known as the happy guy who always laughed and had a great mindset, beating many patchzergs when nobody expected him to? Were you finally crushed by despair so much that you would publicly do something like this?
No. So please, stop commenting on things you don't understand.
[quote]
I disagree. Champions don't quit. Did Jaedong quit when he was having trouble with protoss? Has Bogus quit or Flash? Did Parting quit when he was losing for months at a time? People who have terrible mindsets throw hissy fits on twitter and blame DK for their losses. Like Idra did. lol yeah bogus and flash did not quit .. but they are having a rough time .. just look at their previous interviews .. flash even considered switching to protoss once .. Indeed, but was that not because he felt that Protoss can play a defensive style more like the one he played in Brood War, rather than due to any imbalances at the time? No he thought protoss was op as fuck, he said forcefields were op warpgate were op etc. etc. lol I call bs on that. I am quite sure I read that interview a few months ago. It was more that he felt Protoss suited his preferred play style more, and that he was staying with Terran more for the fans (IIRC). Do you have a link to your claims? That's total BS. Flash wanted to play Protoss cause it fit his playstyle more. Isn't that what he said? or were you responding to the guy he quoted? I believe he was affirming that Snusmumriken's claim was total BS. On another note didn't bisu say the opposite, that he wanted to switch to terran but he decided to try to stay protoss for his fans. Just thought it could be put out there If i ask for a link, will i be forced to look it up myself, unless i accept this as fact?
|
On December 22 2013 11:04 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote:
Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about. This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design.
It is true that you can't make everyone happy and there will always be people whining. But that doesn't mean patches shouldn't happen. Do we really want to go back to mass reapers or Protoss with K amulet?
The reason you see more Terrans complain is because of the latest patch. Many Protoss didn't even think the oracle buff was needed, yet it went in to give oracles more 'mid game' usage. Basically Blizzard created relevation and really wanted it to be used. But the side effects were bad. It just shows that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction but they are too proud to admit it.
|
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
|
On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something.
no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
|
On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
No one said what? All I'm saying is you can point to ladder statistics and complain about the state of terran all day, but it's a fact that the top tier players are doing fine with the race and they make up perhaps a majority of tournament favorites still.
Oracle patch might be stupid but that's been around for so little that surely no one's quitting the game over it.
|
On December 22 2013 10:52 soon.Cloak wrote:
I'm curious- is there anybody here that was around the early days of the Brood War era, that saw a race be considered OP for some time, before the other race(s) caught on? I don't know how dominant 3 Hatch Muta actually was in its early days, but I've heard some hyperbole about it having been unbeatable.
Nevermind, found it. Borrowing (copying...) liberally from this wonderful post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=94254
TvZ Winrate, during the 3 Hatch Muta Era:
![[image loading]](http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/4422/images/TL/history%20of%20tvz/TvsZ3.jpg)
Ya, the winrate dropped under 40% for about a month, then shot up to about 60% for 2 months.
![[image loading]](http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/4422/images/TL/history%20of%20tvz/TvsZ5.jpg)
In early 2007, we have these wonderful percentages, where T was killing for a bit, before dropping to close to 40%, and needing about 2 months to recover to 50%.
![[image loading]](http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/4422/images/TL/history%20of%20tvz/TvsZ7.jpg)
Or here, where we have this insane TvZ having around 60% winrate, or more, for about 4 months.
And, to the best of my limited knowledge, at the pro level, Brood War is considered balanced.
I don't know if PvT is OP or not, but I don't really know if we have given it enough time to tell for certain. Is it possible that some strategy will emerge that will reinvent the entire metagame? Was WOL the same before and after the Infestor dominance period? Didn't PvZ Immortal All-In change how the game was played?
Again, I'm not saying that PvT is fair, or close to balanced. All I'm saying is that it's possible that, with more time, T will figure P out.
|
On December 22 2013 10:46 pure.Wasted wrote:
I don't follow a lot of foreign SC, but I know a lot of BW's best foreign Terrans were Russians. Kas being a Russkie, this is sadder than it should be.
Kas is Ukranian.
|
On December 22 2013 11:24 Beakyboo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want No one said what? All I'm saying is you can point to ladder statistics and complain about the state of terran all day, but it's a fact that the top tier players are doing fine with the race and they make up perhaps a majority of tournament favorites still. Oracle patch might be stupid but that's been around for so little that surely no one's quitting the game over it.
cause the state of early game Terran isn't good and hasn't ever been good since HoTS came out. The oracle patch did nothing to fundamentally change anything, but made the problem worse. It's much less about balance, and much more about the lack of options and fun that is TvP, or anything vs Protoss. Does anyone really like to face Protoss?
|
On December 22 2013 11:13 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:04 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote:
Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about. This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design. It is true that you can't make everyone happy and there will always be people whining. But that doesn't mean patches shouldn't happen. Do we really want to go back to mass reapers or Protoss with K amulet? The reason you see more Terrans complain is because of the latest patch. Many Protoss didn't even think the oracle buff was needed, yet it went in to give oracles more 'mid game' usage. Basically Blizzard created relevation and really wanted it to be used. But the side effects were bad. It just shows that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction but they are too proud to admit it.
There may be times when something is obviously out of whack. I don't know if mass Reaper was as imbalanced as it is now made to sound. I only started watching and playing SC2 a little after that, iirc. But, I would have liked Blizzard to have left the game alone for a while to see if players adapted instead of giving into an itchy nerf finger. The K amulet was imbalanced. Especially at at time when Protoss players had not even really begun to develop Templar-centric play styles.
My point (for HOTS) was that after beta was done, the game should have been left alone for a while (but, then you get people asking for patches because the game is "stale"). IMO, constant patches and re-figuring the game and wading through the whine all gets exhausting. Especially when it is so repetitive. It must be a lot worse for pros. Easier to complain, I suppose.
|
All it takes is one pro foreign Terran to ignite a shit storm on TL, lol.
On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want
What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The majority of Terran whose global opinion you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
|
I don't know if PvT is OP or not, but I don't really know if we have given it enough time to tell for certain. Is it possible that some strategy will emerge that will reinvent the entire metagame? Was WOL the same before and after the Infestor dominance period? Didn't PvZ Immortal All-In change how the game was played?
A big misconception that people talk about is this thing that Protoss is overpowered. I think that's not really the right word. Ever since HoTS came out, Terran early game is pretty much the exact same thing cause of the oracle. Everything that Terran opens up, you need to have a defense for an oracle or you can just lose straight up. When Protoss has a ton of options to open up, while Terran has realistically 1-2 macro, and 1 very all in (11/11) option, it skews the ladder stats by a lot. PvZ Immortal All in is very similar to how the situation is for Terran, without the high win %. If Protoss wins, it's going to probably be in the early, or late game. If Terran wins, it's probably going to be in the mid game (that maybe leads into the late game). That wasn't fun to watch or play for anyone in WoL. How is that going to change now?
|
On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
|
On December 22 2013 11:35 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The vast majority of Terran whose global opinion in which you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance. That Protoss is overpowered and we want to nerf everything from colossi to templar and want to stim a-move into everything. Go look at TheDwf's posts about Protoss and he'll give actual games that link to the complaints that a lot of Terrans are talking about. I don't claim to speak for the majority, but it's pretty stupid for Protoss posters to put their hands on their ear and yell everything is okay when stats say it's not.
That is a very common opinion among outspoken Terran posters. The state of the game isn't perfect, but to the opposite effect, it's not so bad that it's worth throwing a career away and quitting over. Bringing the discussion back to Kas, there are many things that prevented him from achieving the success he wanted that does not include the state of balance. The existence of Korea makes this a really hard discussion to have.
|
On December 22 2013 10:53 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 10:46 pure.Wasted wrote:I don't follow a lot of foreign SC, but I know a lot of BW's best foreign Terrans were Russians. Kas being a Russkie, this is sadder than it should be. On December 22 2013 10:18 Ammanas wrote:And do you really believe that they are just straight up better players then any other race players? Yes. When Protoss takes the same level of multitasking game in and game out and their pros are still able to deliver consistent results the way Inno, Taeja, Bomber, and Maru do, then I'll say Protoss pros are on the exact same level. Until then -- color me not terribly impressed. It's not their fault the race doesn't encourage that kind of play so strongly, but it doesn't mean I have to get overhyped about the amount of skill it takes to Psi Storm a bioball, which is basically the same amount of skill it used to take to Fungal a bioball, which everyone agreed was very, very little. The most impressive micro/multitasking tricks a Protoss has to pull off are Feedback - which is a little bit more impressive than Snipe, because they have to use it to counter drops - and in 1/10 games, Stalker blink micro, which is the same as the kind of splitting every single Terran has to do in every single game against Zerg ever. If the Protoss is Rain or First, they might be into Zealot warp ins, too. I get excited about Zealot warp ins. That's how much multitasking Protoss takes. I get genuinely excited about seeing Zealot warp ins. Zerg who can consistently go toe-to-toe with Terrans in macro slugfests are bad-asses, though, there's no denying that. DRG, Life, Jaedong. Can't remember if Soulkey ever did a particularly impressive macro series. He beat Inno with mostly cheese, and he got dismantled by Maru in WCG KR. Neither Bomber nor Maru really pushed him to his limits at Asus Rog since they both favored mech. I could certainly be forgetting something. so we are basically back 2 years ago, still with the same argument: 'all protoss are scrubs who don't know how to play and the only reason terran master race is actually losing is because they are severely underpowered.' Oh, but instead of 'they should learn to play' at the end, now people mostly add 'It's not their fault the race is stupid'. Basically Idra level - apologize for playing that race. ...nice
My primary concern isn't balance, it's game design. I don't ladder. I only watch Korean tournaments, and I want those to be as entertaining and as rewarding of skill as humanly possible. That doesn't mean I'm not biased, but it might mean I'm less biased than some. Anyway, if the game design hasn't changed in 2 years, why should the argument change? If anything it's gotten worse because of a plethora of low-skill openings and low-skill defenses. Compare Squirtle's near-hold of MVP's 2-rax all-in in GSL, where both had to micro their hearts out in phenomenal displays of skill under pressure, versus... the Nexus cannon, which shuts attacks down outright. And that was a legit all-in from T, not the sort of high pressure pseudo-all-in-but-actually-macro-opening builds we see from Protoss these days. So why should the argument change if the Protoss's worst traits are only being emphasized as time goes on?
On December 22 2013 11:33 rd wrote:All it takes is one pro foreign Terran to ignite a shit storm on TL, lol. Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 11:18 Beakyboo wrote:
So buff terran, nerf taeja. Probably also going to have to go ahead and nerf innovation, mma, polt, maybe even maru and mvp too while we're at it. Or maybe we should just lower the skill cap or something. no one said that at all but whatever. have an argument in your head with what you think Terrans want What argument do they have in their head then? Touch Terran balance in any way and Korea will go back to 2010 status. The majority of Terran whose global opinion you seem to imply you represent (which you dont) aren't affected by this balance.
Have you considered that some Terrans want to see Protoss similarly 'touched,' so that their race would reward multitasking and micro just as much?
|
On December 22 2013 11:32 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 11:13 vthree wrote:On December 22 2013 11:04 aZealot wrote:On December 22 2013 10:38 Chaggi wrote:
Why would any pro want to stay with this game? Why do you think every player (korean too) calls David Kim the true SC2 bonjwa? It's gotten to the point where his/his team's decisions make no logical sense and does harm to the game. Everyone wants to play as many tournaments as possible now cause who the hell knows what kind of decision is going to come next patch. Maybe Warhounds will come back and shoot banelings. Maybe marines will get a buff to +100 HP to increase the viability of late game Terran. If you look at how BW was handled, Blizzard lucked into a stupid number of stuff to make that successful, and they were completely hands off after the first year or two. It then slowly evolved into something that people STILL play now.
I've been saying for a long while that the best Blizzard is a distant un-involved Blizzard. But then, you get players (ladder heroes and pros) whining about a match-up when something new comes up. Then Blizzard put out a patch, and they whine some more. Basically, no-one will ever be happy with the state of the game. There is always something to cry about. This is not to trivialize Terran, at the current time, btw (Protoss may well require a tweak and nerf to the MSC/Nexus Cannon and Oracle). More a general comment on the larger hysteria that goes on in SC2 when it comes to balance and design. It is true that you can't make everyone happy and there will always be people whining. But that doesn't mean patches shouldn't happen. Do we really want to go back to mass reapers or Protoss with K amulet? The reason you see more Terrans complain is because of the latest patch. Many Protoss didn't even think the oracle buff was needed, yet it went in to give oracles more 'mid game' usage. Basically Blizzard created relevation and really wanted it to be used. But the side effects were bad. It just shows that Blizzard is going in the wrong direction but they are too proud to admit it. There may be times when something is obviously out of whack. I don't know if mass Reaper was as imbalanced as it is now made to sound. I only started watching and playing SC2 a little after that, iirc. But, I would have liked Blizzard to have left the game alone for a while to see if players adapted instead of giving into an itchy nerf finger. The K amulet was imbalanced. Especially at at time when Protoss players had not even really begun to develop Templar-centric play styles. My point (for HOTS) was that after beta was done, the game should have been left alone for a while (but, then you get people asking for patches because the game is "stale"). IMO, constant patches and re-figuring the game and wading through the whine all gets exhausting. Especially when it is so repetitive. It must be a lot worse for pros. Easier to complain, I suppose.
That's fine if the patches made sense though. What did the tank firing speed really do? Have we seen more mech play by that much in TvP/TvZ? (I mean, it happens but it's still by the same pros). The logic that the mine nerf was to promote tank/mine play in TvZ was just stupidity. Even now, mines are the things that dominate TvZ. Why would they increase oracle speed if Protoss already had a stupid good early game? To make mid game/late game viable? How often do we even see oracles in the mid/late game? I don't even remember any pro game that has oracles in the late game after the patch. The logic doesn't make sense and that's a huge problem for pro gamers. It's fine if you're a top tier player, who has superior mechanics, and a team that supports you for a long time. For the non-top tier players, patches that make no sense hurts the credibility of DK and the Blizzard balance team. Why would anyone want to dedicate time in their life to professionally play a game that could very well nerf or buff things on a whim?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
