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On December 19 2013 03:57 Incubus1993 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 00:38 storywriter wrote:
I think the 6% figure is if they only count people who are active. A lot of people play very few games per season and have kept their leagues that way for a long time . That doesn't mean those people have gotten so bad they need to be placed two or three leagues below their original league. They should be demoted though, their slots should be open for people ACTUALLY PLAYING the game. There are so many "Masters" players that play their placement game and leave it at that for the entire season.
Hey, I don't want a bunch of plat-diamond-master slackers in silver, it is enough to be stomped by all the smurfs... us dirt leaguers are getting pretty demotivated when always getting far too good opponents, and this is happening already now. SC2 doesn't gain anything if the bottom 20% of the people get fed up and quit because of this. We want to play people that are on our level. It should be very difficult to fall below gold if you at some point reached plat or higher imo. 
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On December 19 2013 04:25 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 04:18 Faust852 wrote:On December 19 2013 04:09 dcemuser wrote:On December 19 2013 04:00 saltis wrote:
On what basis Blizzard states " "There isn't an exaggeration of Protoss players."" ? # of players of a race does not correlate to balance. Certain races have always dominated certain brackets due to being easier/harder/more popular (not better). Therefore, Blizzard could have the historical race %s in front of them for all time, and they could see that there was no noticeable rise in protoss players from X to Y period of time, which means that this current influx of Protoss players is not primarily due to balance issues. So if there are more protoss in GM it's not because it's shinny and stuff ? :o Remember, that's the argument people used to explain why 80% of Code S was terran back in the day. Although, "easiness" and balance are essentially the same thing. It is "easier" to 1 base your way to plat with protoss. It's "easier" to win GSL with zerg.
I think they also have a concern about the progames now they invested so much money into WCS. They really failed the last balanced patches of WoL from a spectator point of view.
I don't follow HotS nearly as much as I followed WoL but the few games I watch don't look like copy pasted games.
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The Game does not seem balanced at all in team games... Well, the zerg expansion seemed to change the viability of that race the most to the point that a majority of zerg players retired and many team noob players like me quit. The funnest race of the game was very popular... but the changes made it so that the game is not longer fun for many players at all.
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Well first of all I had a 97% win rate over 30+ games a while ago all due to MMR decay (I didn't even take that much time off like 6 weeks).
Also I have no idea why they want win rates to be 50% after taking time off. Your skill will decline when taking time off and win rate will go down, yes. But MMR is a system which is set up to AUTOMATICALLY adjust that. Artificially enforcing MMR decay introduces large errors into the system, basically it breaks the whole point of MMR. MMR is a self regulating thing. No one cares that they lose a little after some time off until their MMR drops compared to silver playings getting donked on game after game by former masters players. 50% win rate after some time off is all well and good but when half are stomps and half are spankings due to the chaos of the system then who cares? Bring back the old system and stop trying to fix a problem that doesn't actually exist Blizzard.
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On December 19 2013 04:01 captainwaffles wrote:
Being a 15 times masters finisher I was placed into diamond this season and it took 15 games to get back. I don't see what the big deal is the ladder should be hard.
"In my specific case it hardly affected me much at all so I don't see the big deal".
Amazing lack of perspective. Well done.
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On December 19 2013 03:25 atrox_ wrote:
this post has so many words in it yet it says absolutely nothing. It's full of "we will look intos" and "we will consider"
They are letting the players know that they are aware of the issue and are currently looking into it. Its better than the silent treatment. I am sure they will figure something out eventually.
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On December 19 2013 04:43 Virium wrote:
What a lot of you people need to understand about MMR decay is that you have an incomplete idea pertaining to MMR to begin with. Dropping down by 3 leagues upon re-placement does not mean that your MMR has dropped to that league, and I have a really hard time believing that someone in at least mid-masters actually dropped down to silver when they played their placement match, and like I said, their MMR is clearly not going to be silver league level. (clipped rest)
No. When you do your 1 placement match, your league placement represents your MMR at that moment. E.g. if you are placed to silver league, you know that your MMR in the end of the placement match was inside silver league MMR range.
Exception to this is when you start from blank MMR (5 placement matches are needed). Then initial placements are conservative. When you play your 25th match (includes the 5 placement matches), you are promoted to the league that represents your MMR at that moment (If your MMR already is inside your current league range or lower league range nothing will happen. Please also note that league promotions happen only after you win a match (you don't get promoted after loses). So it may require more than 25 matches).
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Played a bunch of 4v4 games last night, the people I was placed with and up against were all over the place, I mean you had level 90s up against no-portrait newbies, it was just nuts. One game I played against a Terran player with almost 200apm avg and my teammates were around 40. It was totally fine back in WoL so I'm not sure what they were trying to fix.
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8748 Posts
On December 19 2013 05:04 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
Also I have no idea why they want win rates to be 50% after taking time off.
It's about not discouraging players from playing SC2. If someone hasn't played for three weeks, would they rather lose a bunch of SC2 games in a row or play some other game that might be more rewarding and less stressful? The more they procrastinate their return to SC2, the harsher it's going to be and so the less likely they'll return. Unless their MMR decays.
Of course, not every player has the same psychological approach to the game, so this doesn't apply to everyone. The more competitively-minded players will accept their rustiness and work hard to get back in shape and win again. On the other hand, the same is true of Silver players being matched up against MMR-decayed Diamond players: the more competitively-minded players won't mind (and might even enjoy) the opportunity.
On December 19 2013 05:05 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
"In my specific case it hardly affected me much at all so I don't see the big deal".
Amazing lack of perspective. Well done.
Wtf... you just advocated getting rid of MMR decay entirely without even knowing a single reason it was implemented.
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high diamond/low masters skill here. just qued up an unranked and got matched against desrow playing Z. thought it was fake at first till i saw his profile was GM. im currently rank 1 plat btw. i beat him but wtf still really wierd. this isnt the first time i got matched against a former GM either.
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On December 19 2013 05:16 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 05:04 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
Also I have no idea why they want win rates to be 50% after taking time off. It's about not discouraging players from playing SC2. If someone hasn't played for three weeks, would they rather lose a bunch of SC2 games in a row or play some other game that might be more rewarding and less stressful? The more they procrastinate their return to SC2, the harsher it's going to be and so the less likely they'll return. Unless their MMR decays. Of course, not every player has the same psychological approach to the game, so this doesn't apply to everyone. The more competitively-minded players will accept their rustiness and work hard to get back in shape and win again. On the other hand, the same is true of Silver players being matched up against MMR-decayed Diamond players: the more competitively-minded players won't mind (and might even enjoy) the opportunity. Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 05:05 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
"In my specific case it hardly affected me much at all so I don't see the big deal".
Amazing lack of perspective. Well done. Wtf... you just advocated getting rid of MMR decay entirely without even knowing a single reason it was implemented.
If you come back worse after a break, your MMR will drop and your win rate will return to 50% quickly. This is the whole point of MMR. Trying to somehow massage things to "guess" what a players MMR might be after a break is a huge problem to the fundamental point of the system.
I know exactly why it was implemented and just put a whole post about why that reason makes no sense and why it in fact damages the whole matchmaking system by artificially introducing a system which undermines MMR's self righting mechanism (as we have clearly seen). The MMR decay has arguably discouraged people from laddering even more than before it was implemented (certainly did for me and others I know). Their goal is not just not being met, it is doing the opposite of what they intend.
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inb4 a new league is put between plat and dia
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On December 19 2013 05:25 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
Trying to somehow massage things to "guess" what a players MMR might be after a break is a huge problem to the fundamental point of the system.
This is wrong. The point of the MMR system is to make the games even and enjoyable. The MMR difference between two players is a direct estimate of winning probability. The whole system is built on the assumption that the MMRs are more or less correct. If a player doesn't play for a while and loses skill that's no longer true. If MMR doesn't decay players leaving and coming back WILL have a global effect on the system. It will cause a general inflation of everyones MMR in the same way as too high decay will cause deflation, which is what has happened now.
Guessing player MMRs after a break doesn't hurt the system, if the guesses on average are correct. It will help it. A guess that skill doesn't decrease after a break is obviously wrong. MMR decay is a good thing, but the decay has to match actual skill decay. Repeated decays if you play once every three weeks for example, is outright silly.
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2 seasons ago,I was placed in gold league,as a top 8 finisher, needed a promotion to get up to plat,but it was to late,got rank 1 just before the reset. Next season,I placed directly in gold but due school stayed there,dropped to 60+ place,and had a large bonus pool to spend,the matches we're normal,gold players if I made a streak 3-4 wins got a plat etc,in last 5 days of casual play I got up from 60 to 5th place. Then the reset for this season occured...
Played a placement matche vs a gold player,won,got placed in silver,ok happy times,but then 10 losses with this sort of followup:
-3 times master
-2 times diamond
-diamond
-diamond
-master
-5 times platinum
-master
-3 times diamond
-diamond
-platinum
Now every time I loose i have that habbit of looking who was what,and where they are placed,and i was shocked,they all we're placed in silverleagues...
So i left the leage,played the placement again,got silver again,and geting still crazy diamond,high plat players.
The thing is that i play starcraft casually,and I don't mind loosing to higher skilled players,if I know i play vs one,I get some motivation ofc,makes me pump preform better,but darn i'm freekin scared on ladder right now,don't have a clue who can play vs me,a diamond,or a silver :S
Currently after I joined a league again,i'm ono 66% winrate,but my morale to play is 0%,and to simplify this to higher ranked non soul for newbs players,how would you feel,if someone like jaedong would camp your diamond/master league?! 
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On December 19 2013 04:58 BaneRiders wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 03:57 Incubus1993 wrote:On December 19 2013 00:38 storywriter wrote:
I think the 6% figure is if they only count people who are active. A lot of people play very few games per season and have kept their leagues that way for a long time . That doesn't mean those people have gotten so bad they need to be placed two or three leagues below their original league. They should be demoted though, their slots should be open for people ACTUALLY PLAYING the game. There are so many "Masters" players that play their placement game and leave it at that for the entire season. Hey, I don't want a bunch of plat-diamond-master slackers in silver, it is enough to be stomped by all the smurfs... us dirt leaguers are getting pretty demotivated when always getting far too good opponents, and this is happening already now. SC2 doesn't gain anything if the bottom 20% of the people get fed up and quit because of this. We want to play people that are on our level. It should be very difficult to fall below gold if you at some point reached plat or higher imo.
Great point, probably gets lost with people concerned with not being placed properly who want to go higher, but when a bunch of people are going 50-3 those victims of those 50 wins must feel pretty shitty and discouraged. Playing in silver and finding out after the game that your opponent was masters on a regular basis is ridiculous.
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I feel like the lack of demotion during mid-season was a bad idea. I feel that this is also one big issue with the current system. If no one gets demoted, how does one get promoted as Blizzard also wants leagues distributed in certain way?
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I also don't get how you can hit players with much lower and much higher mmr, I just got back to sc2 after a long break and I match up with masters and plats. You end up losing horrible or win extremely easy, both of whom are not so fun tbh.
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Good, they finally made a statement. 
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On December 19 2013 06:08 Striker.superfreunde wrote:Good, they finally made a statement.
Which doesn't make much sense
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On December 19 2013 05:04 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
Also I have no idea why they want win rates to be 50% after taking time off. Your skill will decline when taking time off and win rate will go down, yes. But MMR is a system which is set up to AUTOMATICALLY adjust that. Artificially enforcing MMR decay introduces large errors into the system, basically it breaks the whole point of MMR. MMR is a self regulating thing. No one cares that they lose a little after some time off until their MMR drops compared to silver playings getting donked on game after game by former masters players. 50% win rate after some time off is all well and good but when half are stomps and half are spankings due to the chaos of the system then who cares? Bring back the old system and stop trying to fix a problem that doesn't actually exist Blizzard.
+1
I had no issues with the old system. When I came back from a month or two break I expected to lose a couple games while I shook off the rust. Now it's crazy. I've dropped two leagues and I'm playing people all over the place from 40 APM bronze leaguers to 200 APM former diamond. I guess it's a fun challenge playing the really good players, but it's really difficult to measure improvement.
I thought the old system was just fine.
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EPT
