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On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran.
What was the PvZ winrate the last month that Void Ray speed was in the game? Both upgrades would have eventually led to some pretty disgusting Protoss dominance if they weren't taken out of the game before they became a problem. Stargate openings didn't even become popular until AFTER the speed upgrade was taken out.
EDIT: I guess it's only speculation that Protoss would dominate. Regardless, those were 2 super strong upgrades.
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On December 05 2013 17:59 Zarahtra wrote:
Think PvP will be his downfall. Compared to TvT it feels maybe not coinflippy, but on a razor's edge. Sjow has always struck me as a good strategic player but PvP seems to be more about trickery and mind games.
Edit: I also find it a bit funny that people don't agree with KA being the most OP thing that got removed. The maps were so insanely small that it didn't effect the game as much as it'd do now, but that doesn't really change how strong it was. If you got to hts + storm + KA they were a nightmare to deal with.
As far as his winrates go though, PvZ is his worst at the moment, right? How good (and quick) are his forcefields?
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![[image loading]](http://imgim.com/4919incif6292052.png)
User was warned for this post
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On December 05 2013 18:38 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 17:59 Zarahtra wrote:
Think PvP will be his downfall. Compared to TvT it feels maybe not coinflippy, but on a razor's edge. Sjow has always struck me as a good strategic player but PvP seems to be more about trickery and mind games.
Edit: I also find it a bit funny that people don't agree with KA being the most OP thing that got removed. The maps were so insanely small that it didn't effect the game as much as it'd do now, but that doesn't really change how strong it was. If you got to hts + storm + KA they were a nightmare to deal with. As far as his winrates go though, PvZ is his worst at the moment, right? How good (and quick) are his forcefields?
Well, I only watched for 3 minutes when he was in playing a zerg and lets just say I saw a lot of stalkers, but hardly any sentries. He didn't look good at all, heh. The other guy didn't look very good either meh.
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On December 05 2013 18:01 Arolis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran. What was the PvZ winrate the last month that Void Ray speed was in the game? Both upgrades would have eventually led to some pretty disgusting Protoss dominance if they weren't taken out of the game before they became a problem. Stargate openings didn't even become popular until AFTER the speed upgrade was taken out. EDIT: I guess it's only speculation that Protoss would dominate. Regardless, those were 2 super strong upgrades.
Speculate as we may on how dominant Protoss might have, speed Reapers were completely broken against Zerg and Terran did dominate.
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He is still master? What is his rank now?
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Around 700-750 pts i think
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On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran.
TvP really rarely got to late game back then due to the strengt of terran all ins (yeh very different time).
It took time for protoss to figure it out. However, if pro's played with same balance today, protoss would be unbeatable. Just think of lategame PvT today - how hard it is for terran. Imagine the new balance if terran never could attack any location protected by a pylon.
With Reapers - at least, zergs had kinda figured out how to deal with them somewhat decently (before they got nerfed), and it was only vs Zerg they were imba.
Speculate as we may on how dominant Protoss might have, speed Reapers were completely broken against Zerg and Terran did dominate
Its not really speculation at all. These are the facts;
1) Protoss eventually learned how to get to late game without terran. If KA wasn't nerfed, it would only have been even easier for them to get ot late game.
2) Terran almost never won late game back then. All wins simply came from early game/early midgame (blizzard posted statsitics confirming this).
3) I think anyone can agree today that HT's vs terrans are pretty strong.
Those, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how broken TvP lategame would be today if KA was still in the game.
Further, if you also go back and study VOD's of TvZ prereaper nerf, you will probably also see that the Reaper imbalance is somewhat exaggerated.
Even the famous Morrow vs. Idra finale wasn't really decided by Reapers. In only one game (out of the 4) did Morrow get a signifciant lead after the Reaper harass. The two other reaper-games were quite even when they got into the midgame.
But the strong thing about the Reaper was that they simply gave the terran a call-option of winning the game as there was no real bad outcome for him. Worst-case scenario was him getting even into the game. But if zerg made some small mistakes he could easily lose.
However, that's simply a much less imbalance than unwinable late-game, which is what KA created back then.
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kinda funny watching Sjow struggle a bit after his cocky comments like "P imba" etc... :p
PvZ and PvP seem quite hard to master for him, which is no surprise really since he actually is learning those matchups for the very first time. With PvT he has quite some fun ^_^, at least for now bashing mostly random master players.
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On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period.
In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination.
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On December 06 2013 12:29 bearhug wrote:Toss so easy to play.
If you actually tuned into his stream.. I've seen very little of him play but for what I did see of his PvZ. He has a very loooooong way to go.
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On December 06 2013 12:32 StarStruck wrote:If you actually tuned into his stream.. I've seen very little of him play but for what I did see of his PvZ. He has a very loooooong way to go.
True true. Wonder if any pros will change to T because it's apparently easy ;P
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Yes so far I've watched him only once and that was 4-5 games max but it seems that he isn't really trying to learn. His wall-offs against zerg are terrible and he has only gateway units 15 minute into the game against terran. (to name 2 obvious mistakes but there are many more) And he does it over and over again.
He could be top 50 GM no problem if he actually learned protoss but he is playing on auto-pilot right now.
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As insulting as this may sound, I'm actually enjoying the sh*t out of this stream. Sjow is very slow for a pro, it's great learning from his play and what he is able to do with low APM, way easier to replicate then someone like TL.HerO, prob the worst player ever to learn from haha
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I switched to protoss, but after about 2 months I went back to Terran. I just found Protoss really not exciting, Warp gates are insanely strong, its amazing how at Diamond level people don't scout the map for pylons with a single marine. I would just warp in like 8 zealots and just decimate workers anytime I saw the chance.
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On December 09 2013 01:17 ffadicted wrote:
As insulting as this may sound, I'm actually enjoying the sh*t out of this stream. Sjow is very slow for a pro, it's great learning from his play and what he is able to do with low APM, way easier to replicate then someone like TL.HerO, prob the worst player ever to learn from haha
You should get elfi, he is top5 gm and slow :D
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On December 09 2013 01:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 01:17 ffadicted wrote:
As insulting as this may sound, I'm actually enjoying the sh*t out of this stream. Sjow is very slow for a pro, it's great learning from his play and what he is able to do with low APM, way easier to replicate then someone like TL.HerO, prob the worst player ever to learn from haha You should get elfi, he is top5 gm and slow :D
elfi actually got quite a bit faster, but ofc slow compared to some high apm players still
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On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea.
This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bviP1.png)
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EPT
