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On December 06 2013 13:13 RedMorning wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 12:32 StarStruck wrote:On December 06 2013 12:29 bearhug wrote:Toss so easy to play. If you actually tuned into his stream.. I've seen very little of him play but for what I did see of his PvZ. He has a very loooooong way to go. True true. Wonder if any pros will change to T because it's apparently easy ;P
worth pointing out this is NA. Just by looking at ladder points, NA master league is much much less competitive than EU ladder. Sjow is already top 200 master in NA, however with the same amount of point in EU ladder, I don't think he would even be top 500.
Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea.
Your manipulating statistics with that quote as the 65% number suffers extremely much from variance. With that quote your implying the "true w/r" of the 1/1/1 era was 65%, when in reality the real number is much much less.
Instead, it is much better to take a broader view over multiple months where the average is much closer to 55%.
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I think the fun part about Sjows streams is that he doesnt seem have much of an understanding of protoss meta.
He just roughly copies common builds and then learns as he goes along.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On December 06 2013 07:30 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran. TvP really rarely got to late game back then due to the strengt of terran all ins (yeh very different time). It took time for protoss to figure it out. However, if pro's played with same balance today, protoss would be unbeatable. Just think of lategame PvT today - how hard it is for terran. Imagine the new balance if terran never could attack any location protected by a pylon. With Reapers - at least, zergs had kinda figured out how to deal with them somewhat decently (before they got nerfed), and it was only vs Zerg they were imba. Show nested quote +Speculate as we may on how dominant Protoss might have, speed Reapers were completely broken against Zerg and Terran did dominate Its not really speculation at all. These are the facts; 1) Protoss eventually learned how to get to late game without terran. If KA wasn't nerfed, it would only have been even easier for them to get ot late game. 2) Terran almost never won late game back then. All wins simply came from early game/early midgame (blizzard posted statsitics confirming this). 3) I think anyone can agree today that HT's vs terrans are pretty strong. Those, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how broken TvP lategame would be today if KA was still in the game. Further, if you also go back and study VOD's of TvZ prereaper nerf, you will probably also see that the Reaper imbalance is somewhat exaggerated. Even the famous Morrow vs. Idra finale wasn't really decided by Reapers. In only one game (out of the 4) did Morrow get a signifciant lead after the Reaper harass. The two other reaper-games were quite even when they got into the midgame. But the strong thing about the Reaper was that they simply gave the terran a call-option of winning the game as there was no real bad outcome for him. Worst-case scenario was him getting even into the game. But if zerg made some small mistakes he could easily lose. However, that's simply a much less imbalance than unwinable late-game, which is what KA created back then.
Nope. Without mothership core, toss would still need to open 3 gates and a super fast colo to not die to terran in the first 9 minutes of the game. Obviously that would play out different compared to than the game in hots today where protoss goes straight into tech with no units.
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On December 09 2013 01:49 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea. This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bviP1.png)
Which month do you consider "end of 1/1/1" era?
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On December 09 2013 02:32 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 01:49 Ben... wrote:On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea. This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments. Which month do you consider "end of 1/1/1" era? End of October, start of November, once the immortal buff had fully kicked in and Xel'Naga Fortress had been removed from the GSL pool.
Note the massive evening out of winrates for November and December in TvP winrates:
+ Show Spoiler +
There were 5 Protoss in the RO16 instead of 1 in GSL November.
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On December 09 2013 05:28 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 02:32 keglu wrote:On December 09 2013 01:49 Ben... wrote:On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea. This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments. Which month do you consider "end of 1/1/1" era? End of October, start of November, once the immortal buff had fully kicked in and Xel'Naga Fortress had been removed from the GSL pool. Note the massive evening out of winrates for November and December in TvP winrates: + Show Spoiler +There were 5 Protoss in the RO16 instead of 1 in GSL November.
I checked October 2011 and amount of TvP
- GSL Code S - 0
- GSL Code A -0
- GSTL:1
- U&D :6
- code B :27
So i want just to point out that we are talking about 35-40 games sample size here.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 09 2013 05:52 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 05:28 Ben... wrote:On December 09 2013 02:32 keglu wrote:On December 09 2013 01:49 Ben... wrote:On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea. This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments. Which month do you consider "end of 1/1/1" era? End of October, start of November, once the immortal buff had fully kicked in and Xel'Naga Fortress had been removed from the GSL pool. Note the massive evening out of winrates for November and December in TvP winrates: + Show Spoiler +There were 5 Protoss in the RO16 instead of 1 in GSL November. I checked October 2011 and amount of TvP - GSL Code S - 0 - GSL Code A -0 - GSTL:1 - U&D :6 - code B :27 So i want just to point out that we are talking about 35-40 games sample size here.
To be fair, there being so few TvPs played could be an indication of imbalance in itself. Not that it necessarily was in this case, but if there are no Protoss players in Code S, then objectively Protoss is in a bad spot and no TvPs can be played in the first place, for example.
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On December 09 2013 05:58 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 05:52 keglu wrote:On December 09 2013 05:28 Ben... wrote:On December 09 2013 02:32 keglu wrote:On December 09 2013 01:49 Ben... wrote:On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea. This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments Which month do you consider "end of 1/1/1" era? End of October, start of November, once the immortal buff had fully kicked in and Xel'Naga Fortress had been removed from the GSL pool. Note the massive evening out of winrates for November and December in TvP winrates: + Show Spoiler +There were 5 Protoss in the RO16 instead of 1 in GSL November. I checked October 2011 and amount of TvP - GSL Code S - 0 - GSL Code A -0 - GSTL:1 - U&D :6 - code B :27 So i want just to point out that we are talking about 35-40 games sample size here. To be fair, there being so few TvPs played could be an indication of imbalance in itself. Not that it necessarily was in this case, but if there are no Protoss players in Code S, then objectively Protoss is in a bad spot and no TvPs can be played in the first place, for example. You hit the nail on the head. Only SangHo made it through, and he played only PvZ in RO16, losing to Coca. He beat Polt once in group stages, which were still considered Up and Down. The other 3 Protoss in October (totalling 4 in the RO32) all lost their matches. Hence no PvTs in Code S.
So yeah, the sample size for TvP was tiny, but that in itself is indicative of how bad Protoss was doing. Funny enough, there were quite a few Protoss in Code A, but they all had PvZs, including the infamous MC vs. Monster matchup where Monster literally just went mass infestor and killed MC with Infested Terrans in an all-in on Dual Sight. That knocked him out of the GSL.
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Is the goal top 50 on EU or NA? I seee he has been playing on NA even though he is living in EU (I think?). I hope he is using NA for some practice then using an account on EU, that would be a lot more impressive if he made it.
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On December 09 2013 08:13 rANDY wrote:
Is the goal top 50 on EU or NA? I seee he has been playing on NA even though he is living in EU (I think?). I hope he is using NA for some practice then using an account on EU, that would be a lot more impressive if he made it.
I think he's going for NA since it's the easiest. He's obviously got a personal agenda trying to prove something with this lol
Though I hope he's really thinking of switching, it's no shame to accept your style is better suited for different race without saying "SEE LUL DIS RACE SO VRY EZPZ"
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On December 09 2013 02:11 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 07:30 Hider wrote:On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran. TvP really rarely got to late game back then due to the strengt of terran all ins (yeh very different time). It took time for protoss to figure it out. However, if pro's played with same balance today, protoss would be unbeatable. Just think of lategame PvT today - how hard it is for terran. Imagine the new balance if terran never could attack any location protected by a pylon. With Reapers - at least, zergs had kinda figured out how to deal with them somewhat decently (before they got nerfed), and it was only vs Zerg they were imba. Speculate as we may on how dominant Protoss might have, speed Reapers were completely broken against Zerg and Terran did dominate Its not really speculation at all. These are the facts; 1) Protoss eventually learned how to get to late game without terran. If KA wasn't nerfed, it would only have been even easier for them to get ot late game. 2) Terran almost never won late game back then. All wins simply came from early game/early midgame (blizzard posted statsitics confirming this). 3) I think anyone can agree today that HT's vs terrans are pretty strong. Those, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how broken TvP lategame would be today if KA was still in the game. Further, if you also go back and study VOD's of TvZ prereaper nerf, you will probably also see that the Reaper imbalance is somewhat exaggerated. Even the famous Morrow vs. Idra finale wasn't really decided by Reapers. In only one game (out of the 4) did Morrow get a signifciant lead after the Reaper harass. The two other reaper-games were quite even when they got into the midgame. But the strong thing about the Reaper was that they simply gave the terran a call-option of winning the game as there was no real bad outcome for him. Worst-case scenario was him getting even into the game. But if zerg made some small mistakes he could easily lose. However, that's simply a much less imbalance than unwinable late-game, which is what KA created back then. Nope. Without mothership core, toss would still need to open 3 gates and a super fast colo to not die to terran in the first 9 minutes of the game. Obviously that would play out different compared to than the game in hots today where protoss goes straight into tech with no units.
What are you talking about? Everyone 1gated expanded in WOL. That's some insane rewriting of history.
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On December 09 2013 08:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 02:11 T.O.P. wrote:On December 06 2013 07:30 Hider wrote:On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran. TvP really rarely got to late game back then due to the strengt of terran all ins (yeh very different time). It took time for protoss to figure it out. However, if pro's played with same balance today, protoss would be unbeatable. Just think of lategame PvT today - how hard it is for terran. Imagine the new balance if terran never could attack any location protected by a pylon. With Reapers - at least, zergs had kinda figured out how to deal with them somewhat decently (before they got nerfed), and it was only vs Zerg they were imba. Speculate as we may on how dominant Protoss might have, speed Reapers were completely broken against Zerg and Terran did dominate Eh he propably meant the standard 1 gate fe into robo into adding 2 more gates . Its not really speculation at all. These are the facts; 1) Protoss eventually learned how to get to late game without terran. If KA wasn't nerfed, it would only have been even easier for them to get ot late game. 2) Terran almost never won late game back then. All wins simply came from early game/early midgame (blizzard posted statsitics confirming this). 3) I think anyone can agree today that HT's vs terrans are pretty strong. Those, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how broken TvP lategame would be today if KA was still in the game. Further, if you also go back and study VOD's of TvZ prereaper nerf, you will probably also see that the Reaper imbalance is somewhat exaggerated. Even the famous Morrow vs. Idra finale wasn't really decided by Reapers. In only one game (out of the 4) did Morrow get a signifciant lead after the Reaper harass. The two other reaper-games were quite even when they got into the midgame. But the strong thing about the Reaper was that they simply gave the terran a call-option of winning the game as there was no real bad outcome for him. Worst-case scenario was him getting even into the game. But if zerg made some small mistakes he could easily lose. However, that's simply a much less imbalance than unwinable late-game, which is what KA created back then. Nope. Without mothership core, toss would still need to open 3 gates and a super fast colo to not die to terran in the first 9 minutes of the game. Obviously that would play out different compared to than the game in hots today where protoss goes straight into tech with no units. What are you talking about? Everyone 1gated expanded in WOL. That's some insane rewriting of history.
He propably meant the standard 1 gate fe into quick robo and then add 2 more gates.
Can propably call that somewhat 3 gate quick colo, since you'd assume everyone does 1 gate fe :o
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On December 09 2013 08:52 Quateras wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 08:35 Hider wrote:On December 09 2013 02:11 T.O.P. wrote:On December 06 2013 07:30 Hider wrote:On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran. TvP really rarely got to late game back then due to the strengt of terran all ins (yeh very different time). It took time for protoss to figure it out. However, if pro's played with same balance today, protoss would be unbeatable. Just think of lategame PvT today - how hard it is for terran. Imagine the new balance if terran never could attack any location protected by a pylon. With Reapers - at least, zergs had kinda figured out how to deal with them somewhat decently (before they got nerfed), and it was only vs Zerg they were imba. Speculate as we may on how dominant Protoss might have, speed Reapers were completely broken against Zerg and Terran did dominate Eh he propably meant the standard 1 gate fe into robo into adding 2 more gates . Its not really speculation at all. These are the facts; 1) Protoss eventually learned how to get to late game without terran. If KA wasn't nerfed, it would only have been even easier for them to get ot late game. 2) Terran almost never won late game back then. All wins simply came from early game/early midgame (blizzard posted statsitics confirming this). 3) I think anyone can agree today that HT's vs terrans are pretty strong. Those, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how broken TvP lategame would be today if KA was still in the game. Further, if you also go back and study VOD's of TvZ prereaper nerf, you will probably also see that the Reaper imbalance is somewhat exaggerated. Even the famous Morrow vs. Idra finale wasn't really decided by Reapers. In only one game (out of the 4) did Morrow get a signifciant lead after the Reaper harass. The two other reaper-games were quite even when they got into the midgame. But the strong thing about the Reaper was that they simply gave the terran a call-option of winning the game as there was no real bad outcome for him. Worst-case scenario was him getting even into the game. But if zerg made some small mistakes he could easily lose. However, that's simply a much less imbalance than unwinable late-game, which is what KA created back then. Nope. Without mothership core, toss would still need to open 3 gates and a super fast colo to not die to terran in the first 9 minutes of the game. Obviously that would play out different compared to than the game in hots today where protoss goes straight into tech with no units. What are you talking about? Everyone 1gated expanded in WOL. That's some insane rewriting of history. He propably meant the standard 1 gate fe into quick robo and then add 2 more gates. Can propably call that somewhat 3 gate quick colo, since you'd assume everyone does 1 gate fe :o
Ya he did. HotS with no mamma core = broken as sh*t, toss would be garbage unless you followed it up with a lot of toss buffs. It would also ruin PvP permanently again lol
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So many foreigners have switched off T, Morrow, TLO, Sjow... but I haven't heard of any switching to T. Such a shame, it's my fav race to watch.
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On December 09 2013 19:45 kckkryptonite wrote:
So many foreigners have switched off T, Morrow, TLO, Sjow... but I haven't heard of any switching to T. Such a shame, it's my fav race to watch.
Sjow has not yet switched. Morrow is playing terran and he never stopped playing terran(racepicker). TLO was random, terran, random and now zerg.
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On December 09 2013 07:44 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 05:58 Zealously wrote:On December 09 2013 05:52 keglu wrote:On December 09 2013 05:28 Ben... wrote:On December 09 2013 02:32 keglu wrote:On December 09 2013 01:49 Ben... wrote:On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea. This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments Which month do you consider "end of 1/1/1" era? End of October, start of November, once the immortal buff had fully kicked in and Xel'Naga Fortress had been removed from the GSL pool. Note the massive evening out of winrates for November and December in TvP winrates: + Show Spoiler +There were 5 Protoss in the RO16 instead of 1 in GSL November. I checked October 2011 and amount of TvP - GSL Code S - 0 - GSL Code A -0 - GSTL:1 - U&D :6 - code B :27 So i want just to point out that we are talking about 35-40 games sample size here. To be fair, there being so few TvPs played could be an indication of imbalance in itself. Not that it necessarily was in this case, but if there are no Protoss players in Code S, then objectively Protoss is in a bad spot and no TvPs can be played in the first place, for example. You hit the nail on the head. Only SangHo made it through, and he played only PvZ in RO16, losing to Coca. He beat Polt once in group stages, which were still considered Up and Down. The other 3 Protoss in October (totalling 4 in the RO32) all lost their matches. Hence no PvTs in Code S. So yeah, the sample size for TvP was tiny, but that in itself is indicative of how bad Protoss was doing. Funny enough, there were quite a few Protoss in Code A, but they all had PvZs, including the infamous MC vs. Monster matchup where Monster literally just went mass infestor and killed MC with Infested Terrans in an all-in on Dual Sight. That knocked him out of the GSL.
You used 65% in October as proof of peak 1-1-1 domination when immortal buff was in august and in adjacent to October months winrates were 54% and 45%. So this 65% is just reason of small sample size.and not peak of 1-1-1 domination.
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I think they switch off more because of boredom rather than a race being imba. It also pays to have played a different race competitively, because you know what they want or what they look like they want.
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On December 09 2013 08:13 rANDY wrote:
Is the goal top 50 on EU or NA? I seee he has been playing on NA even though he is living in EU (I think?). I hope he is using NA for some practice then using an account on EU, that would be a lot more impressive if he made it.
I heard him talking to someone else while on stream and mentioning that he was learning the race on the NA server and then would be bringing it to EU where he would try to get top 50.
His strategy is probably to play out most of the month on NA, practice a lot of builds and get a good feel of the metagame, and then he'll probably switch to EU towards the end of the month and make a huge push. With the bonus pool he'll begin with, he will climb the ladder extremely quickly. On NA he made it to Diamond in the first day, and then Masters on day 2, and had he continued winning, could have had enough points for GM within a day or two after that. He can probably do the same thing on EU, but much more efficiently, since he will actually know the race and shouldn't lose any games to his opponents until high masters.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XII8Mh.png)
