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On November 23 2013 03:05 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 02:50 Noobity wrote:
I'm so tired of people saying that there are no pros in NA/EU that are putting forth the necessary effort. I'd love a couple foreigner pros to let us know their schedules so we don't have to hear this anymore.
But then it would just be "well they aren't practicing right!" I guess it would just be an endless cycle of nonsense. I see why foreigners keep retiring. Fuckit take away all WCS shit, I'd be happy just having foreigner only tournaments to watch from now on.
So goddamned draining having this same argument over and over again and so much of it is just over terminology. Such crazy, heated argumentation, such rampant mud slinging. It really sucks. How many foreign teams have a dedicated coach? That alone can make a huge difference like we seen with EGTL yet for some reason we never seen even 1. Foreigners training wrong, and only a couple people can do without that training like we seen with Polt/Taeja/Naniwa/Scarlet. And even then you don't know how much they would benefit from it.
So then you admit that Koreans have an advantage that foreigners don't have access to?
If foreigners have to rely on being lucky enough to have and recognize their pure talent for something in order to get good enough to be cared about then that seems pretty xenophobic to me. Unless you propose to set up infrastructure around the foreigner countries to give them the same tools Koreans have, then you are simply continuing to kick foreigners while they're down. Once that infrastructure is in place, then I will 100% agree with you when you say that foreigners are not putting in the same effort.
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The idea of the system is to water down the korean presence over the time. So i like it. And lets just see how it all works out before we criticize everything.
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On November 24 2013 14:28 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 03:05 Assirra wrote:On November 23 2013 02:50 Noobity wrote:
I'm so tired of people saying that there are no pros in NA/EU that are putting forth the necessary effort. I'd love a couple foreigner pros to let us know their schedules so we don't have to hear this anymore.
But then it would just be "well they aren't practicing right!" I guess it would just be an endless cycle of nonsense. I see why foreigners keep retiring. Fuckit take away all WCS shit, I'd be happy just having foreigner only tournaments to watch from now on.
So goddamned draining having this same argument over and over again and so much of it is just over terminology. Such crazy, heated argumentation, such rampant mud slinging. It really sucks. How many foreign teams have a dedicated coach? That alone can make a huge difference like we seen with EGTL yet for some reason we never seen even 1. Foreigners training wrong, and only a couple people can do without that training like we seen with Polt/Taeja/Naniwa/Scarlet. And even then you don't know how much they would benefit from it. So then you admit that Koreans have an advantage that foreigners don't have access to? If foreigners have to rely on being lucky enough to have and recognize their pure talent for something in order to get good enough to be cared about then that seems pretty xenophobic to me. Unless you propose to set up infrastructure around the foreigner countries to give them the same tools Koreans have, then you are simply continuing to kick foreigners while they're down. Once that infrastructure is in place, then I will 100% agree with you when you say that foreigners are not putting in the same effort.
You are aware that several foreign teams are more stable financially than a lot of the Korean teams (especially during the beginning of sc2)? So it's not really that they cannot afford to have coaches, but rather decide to not have coaches.
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On November 24 2013 14:28 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 03:05 Assirra wrote:On November 23 2013 02:50 Noobity wrote:
I'm so tired of people saying that there are no pros in NA/EU that are putting forth the necessary effort. I'd love a couple foreigner pros to let us know their schedules so we don't have to hear this anymore.
But then it would just be "well they aren't practicing right!" I guess it would just be an endless cycle of nonsense. I see why foreigners keep retiring. Fuckit take away all WCS shit, I'd be happy just having foreigner only tournaments to watch from now on.
So goddamned draining having this same argument over and over again and so much of it is just over terminology. Such crazy, heated argumentation, such rampant mud slinging. It really sucks. How many foreign teams have a dedicated coach? That alone can make a huge difference like we seen with EGTL yet for some reason we never seen even 1. Foreigners training wrong, and only a couple people can do without that training like we seen with Polt/Taeja/Naniwa/Scarlet. And even then you don't know how much they would benefit from it. So then you admit that Koreans have an advantage that foreigners don't have access to? If foreigners have to rely on being lucky enough to have and recognize their pure talent for something in order to get good enough to be cared about then that seems pretty xenophobic to me. Unless you propose to set up infrastructure around the foreigner countries to give them the same tools Koreans have, then you are simply continuing to kick foreigners while they're down. Once that infrastructure is in place, then I will 100% agree with you when you say that foreigners are not putting in the same effort.
It seems that foreigners are simply waiting when they are given the same infrastructure as the koreans but bigger/better without wanting to do anything for it. Hint, somebody has to start with it and there will be blood, sweat and tears involved without a doubt. It wont pop up out of nowhere with everything included. The koreans worked their ass off to have that system. Just a small example here. Most foreigners when they retire will quit the pro gaming scene entirely while in Korea some will become coaches. Some players in korea also "sacrifice" their own career to become a coach (Zenio and Choya are main examples here). Unless stuff like that happens the foreign scene will never get there and it will forever be a roflstomp.
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On November 22 2013 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 20:20 spirates wrote:
Why are americans so bad at starcraft? Are they just lazy and dont practise that hard? Didn have the sme problem in EU If you look at a map of the world it'll make more sense. Aside from outliers like Naniwa/Stephano europe also struggles when koreans play there. When you've had champs like duckdeok and stardust you can't really talk.
I did some research on aligulac to show, how wrong you are:
Europeans beating Koreans** offline in 2013
+ Show Spoiler +1xBunny |2:0 Violet
3xBabyknight |2:0 HerO|2:1 Symbol|2:1 ForGG
5xWelmu |2:0 MadBull|2:1 DongJinKim|2:1 Sia|2:0 Stardust|2:1 Duckdeok
4xelfi |2:0 Oz|2:1 Stardust|2:1 ForGG|2:1 Taeja
1xDayshi |2:1 Revenge
12xStephano |2:1 TheStC|3:1 ForGG|2:1 Golden|1:0 Trust|1:0 Billowy|1:0 Effort|1:0 Terminator|2:0 Hack|1:0 sOs|1:0 Zero|1:0 Bbyong|1:0 hero
1xToD |2:1 MC
1xHeromarine |2:1 HwangSin
1xHasuObs |2:1 MVP
2xSocke |2:0 jookTo|2:1 Yoda
12xTLO |2:0 Oz|2:1 Heart|2:1 NesTea|2:1 MC|3:1 Violet|3:2 Hyun|2:1 Life|2:1 Squirtle|2:1 ForGG|2:0 ForGG||2:0 JYP|2:1 Sting
1xXlord |2:0 JYP
4xGrubby |2:1 Daisy|2:1 MVP|2:0 Polt|2:1 Golden
6xRet |2:0 MadBull|2:1 Oz|2:0 Sage|3:1 Sting|2:0 MC|2:0 First
7xSnute |3:1 NesTea|3:2 Hyun|2:1 Seed|2:1 NesTea|2:1 Alicia|3:0 Crank|3:0 Sting
1xTarga |2:1 TheStC
8xNerchio |2:0 ForGG|1:0 Keen|1:0 Super|1:0 Dream|1:0 duckdeok|2:1 ForGG|2:0 Coca|2:0 jookTo
2xTefel |2:0 Arthur|2:1 Crank
2xMana |2:0 Zenio|2:1 Sting
1xParanoid |2:1 Golden
1xNightend |2:1 Squirtle
4xHappy |2:1 Jjakji|2:0 duckdeok|3:1 MC|3:2 San
1xLivezerg |2:0 NesTea
1xVerdi |2:0 jookTo
1xTitan |2:1 Stardust|2:0 MyuNgSiK
1xSlivko |2:1 TheStC
2xPandaTank* |2:0 Arthur|2:1 Sting
6xLucifron |2:1 YugiOh|2:1 Center|2:0 Stardust|2:0 MVP|2:1 YugiOh|2:0 Parting
2xVortix |3:1 Stardust|2:0 MC
14xNaniwa |3:0 Revival|3:2 Hyun|3:1 San|2:1 Hack|2:1 Hack|2:0 duckdeok|2:0 Innovation|2:0 MMA|2:0 Dear|2:0 Jaedong|2:0 TheStC|2:1 Jaedong|2:0 YugiOh|2:1 MC
3xSase |2:0 YugiOh|2:1 ForGG|2:1 Jaedong
3xThorzain |2:0 MC|2:1 Lucky|3:2 Creator
1xSortof |2:0 Center
2xBischu |3:2 MC|2:1 Zenio
1xSjow |2:1 Life
1xWhite-Ra |2:1 MC
4xKas |2:0 Stardust|2:1 Zenio|2:0 HerO|2:0 Golden
2xBly |2:1 Hurricane|1:0 Dream
2xStrelok |1:0 YugiOh|1:0 YugiOh
1xDimaga |2:0 Flash
These are 40 Players from Europe, who showed the ability to beat good korean Players offline - all together 127 times in 2013
Almost all of these Players (and even more Europeans) also have beaten good Koreans multiple times at online tournaments.
Americans beating Koreans offline in 2013
+ Show Spoiler +10xScarlett |2:1 Bomber|2:0 Golden|2:0 NesTea|2:0 Maru|2:0 MMA|1:0 Super|1:0 ForGG|2:0 Revival|3:0 alive|1:0 MVP
6xHuk |2:1 Heart|2:0 Stardust|2:0 Polt|1:0 Center|1:0 Fantasy|1:0 Flying
1xNony |2:1 HwangSin
1xgoswer |2:0 YugiOh
1xSuppy |2:1 Revival
1xXenocider |2:0 Junbo
Let's add the Players from SEA and China, who are considered to take part of WCS AM:
+ Show Spoiler +1xPiG |2:1 Lucky
4xMoonglade |2:1 Apocalypse|2:1 TheStC|2:0 Apocalypse|2:0 Dream
4xSen |1:0 sOs|2:0 TOP|2:1 San|1:0 Marineking
1xFly |1:0 Flash
6xJim |2:0 Lyn|3:1 alive|2:0 Alicia|2:0 Crank|2:0 MarineKing|2:1 MarineKing
1xXigua |3:0 dreamertt
4xMacSed |2:1 Lyn|2:1 Oz|2:0 Sage|2:0 Revival
2xTooDming |2:0 Billowy|2:1 Billowy
1xLoner |2:0 Sting
1xCourage |2:0 Sting
So we have 16 Players for WCS AM (6 Players from AM), who've shown the ability to beat good korean Players offline - All together 45 (20) times in 2013.
Still, you have a point in saying, that european Players are struggeling against korean Pros, but to compare in that regard the situation of Europe with the situation of AM is just ridiculous.
*PandaTank comes from South Africa but he usually plays on EU Ladder and Tournaments
**I did not count all koreans. Players like wack, revenge, Daisy, Dragon for example are playing at an average european level.
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EPT
