|
Koreans Are Here to Stay - WCS America 2014
November 21st, 2013 06:33 GMT
by Waxangel"In 2014, we will reserve most qualifier slots for citizens and legal residents of the home regions for both WCS America and WCS Europe."| WCS America | # of qualifier slots | Season 1 Exception |
|---|
| USA/Canada/Latin America | 8 | 12 | | China | 2 | 3 | | Oceania/Southeast Asia | 2 | 3 | | Taiwan/Hong Kong/Macau | 2 | 3 | | Ladder Wildcard | 2 | 3 | | Total | 16 | 24 |
| WCS Europe | # of qualifier slots | Season 1 Exception |
|---|
| Europe/Africa/Middle East | 12 | 18 | | Ladder Wildcard | 4 | 6 | | Total | 16 | 24 |
By implementing a partial region-lock in WCS 2014, Blizzard has tried to find a compromise between ensuring more representation from local competitors (i.e., foreigners), while allowing a limited number of Korean to remain and keep the overall skill level high. WCS America was 2013's problem region, with even opponents of region locking being forced to admit that Koreans taking eight-of-eight qualifier spots in certain seasons was a bit excessive. The new cutoff of a maximum of two non-resident Koreans qualifying per season of WCS America seems much more reasonable. Furthermore, the narrower bottleneck makes it so that the decision between GSL vs. WCS AM is no longer no-brainer for a Korean pro, and we may see less of them try to qualify for WCS America in the first place. In theory, these are good, maybe even great changes to try and get WCS America to a good place between preserving regional competition (read: giving foreigners a chance) and maintaining a reasonable Korean presence. However, when you look at how the first season of WCS 2014 will work, it becomes clear that little has been done to change the current situation where Koreans take up nearly half the spots in WCS America. No matter how much you tinker with the rate at which Koreans can enter WCS America, the much more significant factor is the number of Koreans that are already in the system. To begin, seven Koreans are already guaranteed to be in the first WCS AM Premier League of Season 1, having earned their seeds by placing in the top eight of 2013's final season. That seems like a more or less acceptable number. But behind them are 12 more Koreans that could also advance to Premier, via Challenger League. Players seeded into 2014 WCS America Premier Season 1
• Koreans (7): Polt, ByuL, Oz, Jaedong, Hack, Heart, HerO,
• Non-Koreans (1): MacSed
Players seeded into 2014 WCS Season 1 Challenger
• Koreans (12): HyuN, Arthur, CranK, TaeJa, Revival, TheStC, Tassadar, NesTea, Alicia, aLive, Apocalypse, Sage
• Non-Koreans (12): Minigun, Scarlett, HuK, puCK, MajOr, Drunkenboi, Suppy, Neeb, Sen, Top, Jim, Snute These 12 Koreans are among the 24 players that would have earned Premier spots if Blizzard had kept the old Challenger League system intact. Instead, with Challenger being revamped in the new WCS year, they face one more hurdle in 24 new players who will be selected through regional qualifiers. A series of Bo5 deathmatches will be played to select the final 24 players to grace the new Premier season. Complicated? Think of it as last season's top 24 Challenger League players being given a seed into the final round of the new Challenger League. The problem is in the format. Each of the 24 "old" Challenger players will he matched up 1v1 against one of the 24 "new" players who make it through the qualifier. Now, take into account that these 24 "new" players are all subject to the soft-region lock rules (meaning 21 of them will be foreigners), and that all of the Challenger matches will be "old vs. new"... You guessed it, our 12 Challenger Koreans are just a single Bo5 series win against a foreigner away from returning to Premier. Given the track-record of foreigners going up against Koreans, saying 9/12 of the Koreans will win is a very reasonable estimate. That would put us at 16/32 Korean players in the new Premier Season, close to the 18 mark of the prior WCS AM Premier League. And this isn't even taking account the potential three "new" Koreans who could make it through the qualifiers as well. From a fairness standpoint, it's completely understandable why Blizzard has decided to go down this path. The alternative would have been to selectively kick Challenger Koreans out of WCS America and give them some kind of consolation seed in the GSL. One can only imagine what kind of uproar that would have created in Korea and abroad. Given the way 2013 ended, with players having played out an entire Challenger League season with some non-specific promises made by Blizzard, grandfathering in the Koreans was the most diplomatic and fair choice that could have made. At the same time, you have to wonder what's the use of doing something that's right in principle if it doesn't actually change anything. Let's take a look at Blizzard's reasoning behind the partial lock in the first place. Q. You created a partial region lock. Why not a full region lock?
"While we do want to make sure there are fair opportunities for players to compete in their home regions, we still want to ensure that the WCS system is working to bring top level competition to viewers and identify the world's best StarCraft II players through the global ranking system... ...We think the partial region lock will be a good compromise that helps open up more chances for local players while not overly diluting the level of competition." Opportunities and chances... It's true that at the qualifier and Challenger level, there are more spots available for local players. Unfortunately, it's dubious as to whether they have any more meaningful chances than before. A disproportionate share of rewards, whether it's prize money, spotlight, or glory, is locked away in the deeper rounds of Premier. And for all intents and purposes, those rewards are still guarded by an imposing wall of hungry, superbly-skilled Korean pro-gamers. "It's a fairness issue, we can't just straight boot them out, right?
It was already communicated to the players that their placement in Challenger the last season would seed them into the next season. That is something we had already communicated to them even before we made the final changes to WCS 2014. We didn't want to go back on our word on that. This is the best transition solution that we have.
It gets more complicated if you kick players out of a region. How do you seed them into a new region that they need to go to? It's just a weird situation, 'Oh there's too many Koreans, you're all kicked out. We hope you find a new home somewhere else.' And they have to start from scratch?
It just got really complicated, and we're trying to be fair to the players." Sometimes, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette (a western omelette, in this case), and Blizzard has declined to do so. There continues to be much debate in the community as to whether or not a lock is needed at all, and there will surely be many arguments about whether or not Blizzard made the correct decision in not taking more drastic measures. But if there's one thing that's crystal clear, it's the state of WCS America: Mostly the same as before.
|
|
|
Having a busy morning Waxangel?  Thanks.
|
TL.net ESPORTS: Fair and Balanced
|
I think Blizzard's decision is for the best here. Those players earned their spots fairly, and there's going to be 14-16 regional players challenging them every season. Just having regional challengers (instead of a new set of Koreans) by itself changes the state of WCS America. "Mostly the same" seems like an overstatement to me.
|
so,
"with even opponents of region locking being forced to admit that Koreans taking eight-of-eight qualifier spots in certain seasons was a bit excessive." => No, I wasn't forced to admit that at all^^
Nitpick: you're not taking into account that koreans can and will be matched against koreans in the challenger bracket, so they can eliminate each other. Two at a time, but still.
More importantly, I feel that all the good arguments for region lock are adressed by the new rules. It gives exposure to lesser known foreign players (as long as we do our job correctly and hype them in their Ro64 matches), it reinforces participation in the scene through ladder, it ensures that some money will go to foreigners and foreign teams, it creates incentive for korean players to play in Korea (well at least it tried).
So yeah, it's not a full region lock, but none of these good arguments necessitated a full region lock in order to be addressed (while most of the bad arguments, like the faceless koreans débâcle, needed the full region lock).
That's why I'm still happy with this, and I wouldn't be happy if it had gone further than that.
|
I think what Blizzard did was a pretty good choice when faced with only imperfect options. Would it really have been better to kick out all the Koreans except Polt (or all the Koreans except the those that finished top 8) and have an influx of foreigners into Premier League who got in just by winning a single series against another foreigner?
Also, let's be honest, while there are plenty of very strong Koreans in WCS AM there are also plenty that are far from impossible for a good foreigner to beat. Apocalypse, TheStC, Tassadar, Arthur, NesTea (sorry NesTea)... not saying they're not still better than most foreigners but it's also not like we're talking about an unstoppable all-star team.
|
Poll time!
7 Koreans guaranteed in RO32
12 Koreans need to win a BO5
3 open ladder qualifier slots that Koreans could take, and then win a BO5
= maximum 22, minimum 7
Poll: Number of Koreans in WCS AM Premier RO3214-17 (72) 35% 18-21 (71) 35% 22 (45) 22% 10-13 (11) 5% 7-9 (5) 2% 204 total votes Your vote: Number of Koreans in WCS AM Premier RO32 (Vote): 22
(Vote): 18-21
(Vote): 14-17
(Vote): 10-13
(Vote): 7-9
|
|
|
The only way for Koreans to qualify for WCS AM or EU is through the ladder right? That's good,it's gonna make ladder better and more competitive.
EU is fine i think.Americans will have to slowly "force" the koreans out.The only problem is that it will take a long time which means WCS AM 2014 will probably be just as it was this year.
But as they said it's a fair system,i don't know how else they could implement this soft region lock.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On November 21 2013 16:04 ashubride wrote:
Buy Real Genuine data base Registered Fake Passport, Drivers license,
Id cards,SSD solution,world cup entry ticket in to the field,remove your name from
a warrant(ncic),contact via email(ashubride@yahoo.com)(banabride@gmail.com)(ashubride@gmail.com)
Dear Friend,
Get A second Chance In Life with New Identity protect your
privacy, build new credit history, bypass criminal background checks,
take barck your freedom . We are unique producers of Authentic High
Quality Fake and Real Genuine Data Base Registered Citizenship
documents including Fake Money, Counterfeit money..We offer only
Original high-quality grade 1 Fake as well as data base registered
real genuine Fake passports, Drivers Licenses, ID cards, Stamps, Fake
Visas, Fake School Diplomats, Fake Money and other products for a
number of countries like: USA, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada,
Italia, Finland, France, Germany, Israel, Mexico, Netherlands, South
Africa, Spain, United Kingdom, Japan, China and This list is not full!
Our Team has years of experience producing high quality authentic
grade1 fake passports, Real genuine data base registered passports,
data base Citizenship Documents, Other Identity documents. We use high
quality equipment and materials to produce counterfeit documents being
registered by our insiders working in the various passport agencies.
All secret features of real passports are carefully duplicated for our
falsified documents. We are unique producer of quality fake documents
and data base citizenship documents. We offer only original data base
registered high-quality fake passports, driver's licenses, ID cards,
stamps, Visa, school Diplomes and other products for a number of
countries.over 16 million of our document circulating around the
world.you can contact via email addres(ashubride@yahoo.com)
company address(ashubride@gmail.com)
-WE DO OFFER A LEGITIMATE SERVICE:
we offer a service to help you through to meet your goals, we can help you with:
•Getting real government issued ID under another identity,
•A new social security number (verifiable with the SSA),
•Checking and saving accounts for your new ID,
•Credit cards
•Relocation
•Biometric Passports
•Construction and obtaining identification documents,
•Your own private Nevada Corporation
•Private and offshore banking and much more!
•Fake Cash, Fake Money, Fake Dollars, High quality Fake Money for sale.
•Coaching services available
My contacts include ex private investigators, consulates, high ranking
government personnels and experienced seasoned experts, I have solid
connections with higher personnel's on all areas of identity and
passport change in these Countries who are linked to the passport
agency in each of these countries and with the help of their
connections, all my clients demanding any citizenship document or
passport from any countries are 100% assured as well as guaranteed of
receiving very high quality real genuine registered documents that can
never be identified as fake!! Not even an expertise custom official or
machine can ever dictate the document as fake since the document is no
different from Real government issued!
All our Real genuine data base Registered citizenship documents have
your personal data registered in the data base system and 100% machine
readable. Feel free to get the additional detailed information about
our services. Sincerely hope to find a way to cooperate with you. If
any of these products interest you, please feel free to contact us. We
will give you our best price upon received of your detailed inquiry.
contact via email(ashubride@yahoo.com)
Looking forward to your favorable and early reply.
yours faithful
Always wanted a new passport!
I wonder how many people, if any on this website email these guys.
On topic, I think its pretty cool that tl has got this sort of coverage going, where articles examine the plans of an entity, and do it without being super positive. Kudos for that
|
What Koreans Oo. I see there just player from TL, EG, Axiom and other foreigner Teams. Blame them for bringing Koreans in and not believing in their own foreigner players/playerbase. I do not like this kind of witch hunt driven by foreigners that try to change a system so they do not have to improve to earn a good chunk of the money pit.
|
Overall who cares. The skill level in America does not warrant them taking up many premier league spots. This change fixed the one key problem. Players couldn't even get a chance because Koreans taking all the qualifier spots. Now they are guaranteed a chance to make it into the system.
|
I love how I make a 3 sentence post on the original WCS 2014 thread, do some homework, and come back to see a full page dedicated to what I was thinking about. Not that I'm saying you took my post, it's just nice to know I wasn't crazy!
|
What I would like to know is, players such as Petraeus, DeMusliM, ViBE, etc that finished 3rd in their group and were at the time 'confirmed' challenger league next season, are they now out and have to go through the qualifier stages again?
Otherwise I feel the new change is good for wcs and I feel people are worrying too much about Koreans. Sure they are the best, but you should be aiming to beat the best to win a wcs region, kicking Koreans would make WCS AM imho a lot weaker.
|
On November 21 2013 16:04 Yakikorosu wrote:
I think what Blizzard did was a pretty good choice when faced with only imperfect options. Would it really have been better to kick out all the Koreans except Polt (or all the Koreans except the those that finished top 8) and have an influx of foreigners into Premier League who got in just by winning a single series against another foreigner?
Also, let's be honest, while there are plenty of very strong Koreans in WCS AM there are also plenty that are far from impossible for a good foreigner to beat. Apocalypse, TheStC, Tassadar, Arthur, NesTea (sorry NesTea)... not saying they're not still better than most foreigners but it's also not like we're talking about an unstoppable all-star team.
Exactly. People act like its code S level players coming to WCS AM and EU. Taeja was the ONLY player who gave up code S to come over. Hero was the ONLY player to give up Code A. Everyone else wasn't even in code A when WCS was announced. JD now is probably a code S level player. Polt is also but had already left because of school. So we have 4 clear Code S/B players. Most of the rest are not at this level. If the american scene can't produce players capable of beating Korea's scraps they don't deserve the premier league tournament slots.
|
This hurts my brain. They must really, really be trying hard to rationalize their actions if this is what they came up with after a full year of blatant issues with their system.
I was really holdin' out for blizzard, especially with the new patch notes being pretty nice looking. This doesn't look like it's going to get better any time soon though :/
Sad sad day;;
|
Norway931 Posts
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works.
|
Pfff... At least there is the GSL
|
Oh Waxangel
|
Is there a list of Koreans for the EU like the table above for NA? I think MVP still has to qualify.
|
MMA MC Stardust Duckdeok Genius made top 8 and are still in premier.
Daisy MVP ForGG San will have to win a bo5
|
|
|
On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works.
So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world...
"Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country).
Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors...
That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not.
|
The Koreans already in the NA region must be pretty happy atm!
|
On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works. So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not.
For me WCS NA is supposed to be like US Open, not like the Davis Cup (national teams), where the best of the best of the world compete to become the champion. If the best of the best are mostly Koreans, so be it. Regional competition should be conducted by local sponsors and local tournaments. It is not Blizzard's fault that there is a lack of demand for NA only SC2 tournaments
|
Sweet Jesus, i am so happy Blizzard decided to revitalize Korean scene. Having separete GSL, OSL in Korea gonnna be sick, more interest for players to achive big tournament wins and earn money.As a result this will provide more passion between fans!!! Sickcity1!!
|
Yet another WCS change in Polt's favour. He doesn't have to meta-game, he metas the system.
|
On November 21 2013 17:25 robertpires87 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote:On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works. So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not. For me WCS NA is supposed to be like US Open, not like the Davis Cup (national teams), where the best of the best of the world compete to become the champion. If the best of the best are mostly Koreans, so be it. Regional competition should be conducted by local sponsors and local tournaments. It is not Blizzard's fault that there is a lack of demand for NA only SC2 tournaments
I think avilo is right on that point. WCS NA should NOT be "US Open" where the best of the best meet. Blizzcon is the event, where the best of the best meet.
WCS NA should be for NA players. You cannot argue, that only skill matters. If that was right, the soccer WM would consist of 18 European Teams and 6 South America Teams. More skill, but less fun to watch for sure.
I opted for a more intensive region lock but im fine with blizzards decision.
|
It`s not the same and will work out in the long run. The number of koreans qualifying is so limited (you only need a few upsets and korean mirrors in challenger to outweigh their impact) that their numbers will go down after a few seasons.
|
i'd rather hope they can go back to KR and play some excellent matches
|
This whole region lock is just a mess. The goal of the entire WCS system is to let the best players in the world face off against each other and prove who is officially the best player at the moment, NOT to give players all over the world, no matter how bad they are, an equal chance to get to the finals and get ranked higher than players with more skill, but living in a other part of the world. But ok i get the thought behind it, if no Americans would play, they would lose many American viewers, fair enough.
The REAL problem is that non-americans/europeans (mostly Koreans) who have given up their own country and now live in America/Europe are still disallowed to play in WCS america/eu, just because of their nationality. This is just discrimination and they aren't even trying to conceal it. What will be the next step? Only allowing "full-blood Americans and Europeans" to participate? Isn't the whole point of WCS to show who the best players in the world are, no matter their nationality? How could one even consider forcing someone to play in GSL just because of their nationality. Koreans can't help it they are dominating the western scene, why should they be punished for being good (or AM/EU being bad) Sc2 players.
Well this is just my opinion. I'm sure a lot of people would disagree. Feel free to say so, but also explain your reason please
|
On November 21 2013 18:50 Pandahunterz wrote:This whole region lock is just a mess. The goal of the entire WCS system is to let the best players in the world face off against each other and prove who is officially the best player at the moment, NOT to give players all over the world, no matter how bad they are, an equal chance to get to the finals and get ranked higher than players with more skill, but living in a other part of the world. But ok i get the thought behind it, if no Americans would play, they would lose many American viewers, fair enough. The REAL problem is that non-americans/europeans (mostly Koreans) who have given up their own country and now live in America/Europe are still disallowed to play in WCS america/eu, just because of their nationality. This is just discrimination and they aren't even trying to conceal it. What will be the next step? Only allowing "full-blood Americans and Europeans" to participate? Isn't the whole point of WCS to show who the best players in the world are, no matter their nationality? How could one even consider forcing someone to play in GSL just because of their nationality. Koreans can't help it they are dominating the western scene, why should they be punished for being good (or AM/EU being bad) Sc2 players. Well this is just my opinion. I'm sure a lot of people would disagree. Feel free to say so, but also explain your reason please
I thought in the original OP they stated that you have to proof residency within a certain region. So the koreans player that do lives in the US or elsewhere within Wcs AM can just play within that region
And also, If you look at all the other sports in the world. Certain cups are for the best of the best ( Champions league for football ) and some cups are for teams all over the world.
I do agree that with the WCS partial region locked I think that the Korean scene will just overthrow the rest of the other WCS regions.... Which thought is saddening.
|
On November 21 2013 18:50 Pandahunterz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This whole region lock is just a mess. The goal of the entire WCS system is to let the best players in the world face off against each other and prove who is officially the best player at the moment, NOT to give players all over the world, no matter how bad they are, an equal chance to get to the finals and get ranked higher than players with more skill, but living in a other part of the world. But ok i get the thought behind it, if no Americans would play, they would lose many American viewers, fair enough. The REAL problem is that non-americans/europeans (mostly Koreans) who have given up their own country and now live in America/Europe are still disallowed to play in WCS america/eu, just because of their nationality. This is just discrimination and they aren't even trying to conceal it. What will be the next step? Only allowing "full-blood Americans and Europeans" to participate? Isn't the whole point of WCS to show who the best players in the world are, no matter their nationality? How could one even consider forcing someone to play in GSL just because of their nationality. Koreans can't help it they are dominating the western scene, why should they be punished for being good (or AM/EU being bad) Sc2 players. Well this is just my opinion. I'm sure a lot of people would disagree. Feel free to say so, but also explain your reason please
Q. What are the requirements for a player who wants to compete in a specific country or region's Qualifiers?
If a player would like to compete in a Qualifier for a specific country or region, that player must be either a citizen, be a permanent resident (Green Card) or have a valid, non-visitor visa for a country in that region which would allow them to compete in the Qualifier.
I understand it as a person like Polt who is studying in the USA will count towards the NA region and not as a Korean. So if a person stays in a country he counts for that region as long as he has the correct Visa. Can't see anything wrong with that.
|
While the number of Koreans in NA will be high in season one, there are several factors that may contribute to the number decreasing over time:
1. The higher prize pool of the GSL may lure some of the very top players back to Korea
2. Even if only 1-2 Koreans are eliminated from Challenger league each season, they're gone for good unless they get back in through wildcard
3. In Challenger, Koreans who qualify through wildcard may face Koreans dropped down from Premier
#1 is probably the hardest to predict. Other factors may cancel each other out in the long run.
|
I think overall this is a decent compromise by Blizzard.
They were going to piss off people no matter what they did.
Personally I feel like the main problem is there is just not enough money in WCS Korea, comparatively speaking. If you look at the number of pros to prize money ratio, its really, really bad.
|
It is indeed protective for the Koreans already in. Limits the chance for other top koreans to switch region and push them out.
|
I wonder what happens to Jim and MacSed.
Meeting their manager Edison was an absolute pleasure, so I hope the iG players are able to find ways to compete in WCS
|
On November 21 2013 19:46 Gamegene wrote:I wonder what happens to Jim and MacSed. Meeting their manager Edison was an absolute pleasure, so I hope the iG players are able to find ways to compete in WCS
They're still in WCS; MacSed will play WCS AM Premier, whilst Jim will be playing Challenger, together with Top, another Chinese player. Another three Chinese will qualify to AM Challenger through the regional cups.
|
Its a decent compromise but with the way SC2 is heading, I think more drastic measures would've been necessary to ensure a future for the game in the NA region.
Oh well.
|
the system is good. We need koreans in order to know our players are any good. Yea our foriegners are good and all but if they don't compete against the koreans, than they are no better than 2nd rate code a players and will only get stomped to hell if we ever see them compete in big tournaments like dream hack or iem or even blizzcon. when we watch korean vs foriegner we want to see an awesome clash and a close match, Nothing is worse than watching koreans stomp our favourites like they were nothing, we want to root for our guys knowing they have a chance and see nail biting exciting games. When we tune in to watch wcs (i personally) we expect to see the very best games out there and the only way we are going to get that is by having koreans involved. If we want the rest of the world to catch up we need to play at their level and the only way to do that is to practice with and against them. i remember seeing in another thread talking about koreans being the final boss which i thought was an apt description. If someone won wcs am we would think he is good and all but prob would of got kicked out b4 ro32 in the gsl as he didnt vs a single korean. Considering we have (arguebly) some of the best koreans in wcs am like taeja, Jaedong (does polt count still lol) and so on, if a foreigner can take out one of them, then we know that we are at the top level of sc.
tldr: keep the koreans around, we need a final boss to test our skill so we know that who ever wins wcs am is actually good.
|
On November 21 2013 19:51 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 19:46 Gamegene wrote:I wonder what happens to Jim and MacSed. Meeting their manager Edison was an absolute pleasure, so I hope the iG players are able to find ways to compete in WCS They're still in WCS; MacSed will play WCS AM Premier, whilst Jim will be playing Challenger, together with Top, another Chinese player. Another three Chinese will qualify to AM Challenger through the regional cups.
but what happens if they (not likely) get knocked out? it's a little disheartening.
|
I think wcs america 2013 season 3 seeding into 2014 season 1 kinda brakes their system but other than that the new change is really good. Personally I don't mind seeing korean domination as I'm solely interested in a players skill not their nationality or personality or w/e, however I understand t he issues this brings for the NA scene. Yet I feel like having those top koreans may increase viewership as I would never watch 32 NA players play out a season of premier league, yet I watched every wcs america round of 8 onwards this year. Though I don't know whether I'm just alone with that attitude.
Either way blizzard is addressing the issue I would have just reset premier and challenger league like this year.
|
On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works. So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not.
for once i actually agree with something avilo (aka someone i dislike very much) has said.
with all the support/disagreements to WCS and region lock, the way blizzard has done things is really disheartening for NA pro gamers like me to be motivated to practice hard since i'm probably just going to get knocked out by some koreans in challenger league or first/second round of premier league without ever being able to dream of even placing any higher.
Even though i am on an European team, you don't see me traveling to Europe to compete in WCS EU right? I'd feel very un-welcomed and un-easy to play there compare to my now-so-called-home, AMERICA.
I guess my point is that the moves blizzard is making is hurting the scene and (i am calling Kim and the rest of her crew out) it's due to incompetent people who are not familiar with e-Sports and its community in general.
TLDR:
If this continues there will be more foreign pros on NA who will walk deeper into despair and eventually leave this terrible system and go into league/dota2
|
Norway931 Posts
On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works. So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not.
Yes I am saying all that really and I have no clue why it's hard to understand. This is not the olympics where people represent their country, people are representing themselves. Are you saying in European Champions League football we should ban Brazilians from playing for Barcelona or Real Madrid? Arsenal is made up of almost entirely non British people.
|
On November 21 2013 16:30 bourne117 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 16:04 Yakikorosu wrote:
I think what Blizzard did was a pretty good choice when faced with only imperfect options. Would it really have been better to kick out all the Koreans except Polt (or all the Koreans except the those that finished top 8) and have an influx of foreigners into Premier League who got in just by winning a single series against another foreigner?
Also, let's be honest, while there are plenty of very strong Koreans in WCS AM there are also plenty that are far from impossible for a good foreigner to beat. Apocalypse, TheStC, Tassadar, Arthur, NesTea (sorry NesTea)... not saying they're not still better than most foreigners but it's also not like we're talking about an unstoppable all-star team. Exactly. People act like its code S level players coming to WCS AM and EU. Taeja was the ONLY player who gave up code S to come over. Hero was the ONLY player to give up Code A. Everyone else wasn't even in code A when WCS was announced. JD now is probably a code S level player. Polt is also but had already left because of school. So we have 4 clear Code S/B players. Most of the rest are not at this level. If the american scene can't produce players capable of beating Korea's scraps they don't deserve the premier league tournament slots.
Actually it wasn't just HerO who gave up his Code A seed, Ryung, Center, Nestea, aLive did as well. While MC was knocked out in WCS S1 RO32 and forfeited Code A to go to Europe with Hyun as well as Teaja dropping out in RO16 of WCS S1 and leaving to go to AM.
It shows here http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_1_Korea_GSL/Challenger
|
The new blizz system sounds Great!
For those who want no koreans on WCS America, you are dead wrong, Koreans mean competition. The fact that 12 Koreans are the guardians of the gate to glory in premier looks like it will not only be great storylines, but also a huge incentive for players to practice their ass off, since they are now just a single bo5 away from becoming regional heroes...
|
On November 21 2013 20:28 hellokittySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote:On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works. So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not. for once i actually agree with something avilo (aka someone i dislike very much) has said. with all the support/disagreements to WCS and region lock, the way blizzard has done things is really disheartening for NA pro gamers like me to be motivated to practice hard since i'm probably just going to get knocked out by some koreans in challenger league or first/second round of premier league without ever being able to dream of even placing any higher. Even though i am on an European team, you don't see me traveling to Europe to compete in WCS EU right? I'd feel very un-welcomed and un-easy to play there compare to my now-so-called-home, AMERICA. I guess my point is that the moves blizzard is making is hurting the scene and (i am calling Kim and the rest of her crew out) it's due to incompetent people who are not familiar with e-Sports and its community in general. TLDR: If this continues there will be more foreign pros on NA who will walk deeper into despair and eventually leave this terrible system and go into league/dota2
If you 'ban' the Koreans the competition is worse and natural human behaviour is being lazy. If you can win prize money by beating other players from your region which you obivously already can (and most of the US players can) , most of them won't practice hard to begin with, because its not needed to place highly. Also it completely makes the Blizzcon finals what Blizzard doesn't want it to be. Just another tournament. It should be the best of the best and the WCS system in 2014 won't provide that.
Also to your note that you could compete in Europe, you are very welcome here. Happy will be your present.
|
4713 Posts
On November 21 2013 20:58 b0rt_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote:On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works. So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not. Yes I am saying all that really and I have no clue why it's hard to understand. This is not the olympics where people represent their country, people are representing themselves. Are you saying in European Champions League football we should ban Brazilians from playing for Barcelona or Real Madrid? Arsenal is made up of almost entirely non British people.
What you are saying entirely too extreme and does not correlate completely with other sports.
While it is entirely understandable to want to see the best players in the world compete, I know for one that I do, and I tend to watch more high end tournaments.
However there should still be local only tournaments for the region to develop its own talent.
While there are tons of foreigners on local teams all around the world, there are still lots and lots of teams that have mostly local talent, and if they work hard enough they can get enough recognition to play on the bigger teams.
There is one big reason why you want to also have local talent grow and compete.
It attracts local viewers, which, like it or not represent a good market to tap into, it allows money to flow in and helps everybody and then it gives a sense of legitimacy to the rest of the competition.
In the long run if one nation/region dominates too much then the rest of the scene also suffers because, while the domination nation/region is really happy, the rest of the world will not be.
Like yes, Asian soccer might be far, far behind of EU or South America, but that isn't a reason to allow EU and Brazilian players to flood their region and steal all the spots. You could be sure that if that happened then the interest in it would plummet completely. Yes there are players moving into other regions, but they are mostly in the minority, the majority is still locals.
Another good example is in Skiing. Norway used to dominate, they realized it would be a problem so they cooperated with the tournaments to added restrictions along the lines of only a certain number of representatives per nation + 1 more slot for the reigning champion nation. They also tried to help the local scenes by sending coaches around the world to help the other nations.
So, we aren't saying we want fully region locked competition, nor are we saying we want full free for all, what we do want is equality between the two. Have some local tournaments and partial region lock to help and sustain the local scene, have huge big open tournaments where the best of the best can clash and produce great games. We need both and at the moment we only had just one.
Your view of wanting to see only the best of the best at the detriment of everything else is just plain wrong.
|
Alive will stay alive forever. LiveForever
|
On November 21 2013 21:55 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 20:58 b0rt_ wrote:On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote:On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works. So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not. Yes I am saying all that really and I have no clue why it's hard to understand. This is not the olympics where people represent their country, people are representing themselves. Are you saying in European Champions League football we should ban Brazilians from playing for Barcelona or Real Madrid? Arsenal is made up of almost entirely non British people. Another good example is in Skiing. Norway used to dominate, they realized it would be a problem so they cooperated with the tournaments to added restrictions along the lines of only a certain number of representatives per nation + 1 more slot for the reigning champion nation. They also tried to help the local scenes by sending coaches around the world to help the other nations. So, we aren't saying we want fully region locked competition, nor are we saying we want full free for all, what we do want is equality between the two. Have some local tournaments and partial region lock to help and sustain the local scene, have huge big open tournaments where the best of the best can clash and produce great games. We need both and at the moment we only had just one. Your view of wanting to see only the best of the best at the detriment of everything else is just plain wrong.
I agree, but WCS is not the tournament to have those locks to be honest. Its the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES. If you want local tournaments, have local tournaments and that would be completely fine. SHOUTCRAFT etc pp. Have 'smaller' tournaments that feed the scene, but locking the tournaments with several tens of thousands of dollars? Nah, that hurts the scene even though the AM players don't like it.
|
On November 21 2013 20:28 hellokittySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote:On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works. So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not. for once i actually agree with something avilo (aka someone i dislike very much) has said. with all the support/disagreements to WCS and region lock, the way blizzard has done things is really disheartening for NA pro gamers like me to be motivated to practice hard since i'm probably just going to get knocked out by some koreans in challenger league or first/second round of premier league without ever being able to dream of even placing any higher. Even though i am on an European team, you don't see me traveling to Europe to compete in WCS EU right? I'd feel very un-welcomed and un-easy to play there compare to my now-so-called-home, AMERICA. I guess my point is that the moves blizzard is making is hurting the scene and (i am calling Kim and the rest of her crew out) it's due to incompetent people who are not familiar with e-Sports and its community in general. TLDR: If this continues there will be more foreign pros on NA who will walk deeper into despair and eventually leave this terrible system and go into league/dota2
Starcraft 2 has always been an open international competition with the exception of proleague. Foreigners have not only been welcome, but for a long time received special treatment by Gom offering seeds and a training house (however humble). Blizzard accomodated local players by reserving seeds to foreigners where they can show, whether they´re good enough to compete with the big boys for the big money. Now people have to step up their game, instead of complaining about "auto-losses" against Koreans.
|
so short sighted....it will get better...hopefully
|
Norway931 Posts
On November 21 2013 21:55 Destructicon wrote:
Your view of wanting to see only the best of the best at the detriment of everything else is just plain wrong.
The result of changes mean we have fewer legitimate top players and more players 'given a chance aww'. Also what if one of the foreigners takes a win at the world finals? then speculation about 'win by region lock' might come up  I don't know, this is all bad bad in my book and I'm surprised Blizzard went this route.
|
4713 Posts
On November 21 2013 21:57 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 21:55 Destructicon wrote:On November 21 2013 20:58 b0rt_ wrote:On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote:On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works. So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not. Yes I am saying all that really and I have no clue why it's hard to understand. This is not the olympics where people represent their country, people are representing themselves. Are you saying in European Champions League football we should ban Brazilians from playing for Barcelona or Real Madrid? Arsenal is made up of almost entirely non British people. Another good example is in Skiing. Norway used to dominate, they realized it would be a problem so they cooperated with the tournaments to added restrictions along the lines of only a certain number of representatives per nation + 1 more slot for the reigning champion nation. They also tried to help the local scenes by sending coaches around the world to help the other nations. So, we aren't saying we want fully region locked competition, nor are we saying we want full free for all, what we do want is equality between the two. Have some local tournaments and partial region lock to help and sustain the local scene, have huge big open tournaments where the best of the best can clash and produce great games. We need both and at the moment we only had just one. Your view of wanting to see only the best of the best at the detriment of everything else is just plain wrong. I agree, but WCS is not the tournament to have those locks to be honest. Its the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES. If you want local tournaments, have local tournaments and that would be completely fine. SHOUTCRAFT etc pp. Have 'smaller' tournaments that feed the scene, but locking the tournaments with several tens of thousands of dollars? Nah, that hurts the scene even though the AM players don't like it.
You raise an interesting point, but I'm kind of torn regarding what you said. On the one hand DH, MLGs and former NASL, IPL all had a strong international component and a lot of times the Koreans ended up in the money. WCS was kind of the local tournament that helped the local scenes, which, I must admit is a bit ironic.
Yeah it is really weird for the WCS to be more regional/local, but atm it feels kind of necessary.
Another problem is, as TotalBiscuit mentioned, ladder still is the NR1 source of practice for honing and developing mechanics, team houses seem to be more for perfecting strategies.
There really aren't any tournaments that reward laddering or that encourage Koreans to ladder on EU/NA ladders to raise the local level. I believe you also need that ladder practice against the Koreans otherwise, yes you might practice as hard as possible and qualify for a WCS but once you run into Koreans they could still be a level above and still crush you despite your best efforts.
So, I really agree with a lot of what you say, but the situation right now seems really iffy. A good thing the new WCS system will do is, hopefully encourage more Koreans to play on the local ladders and that will, hopefully help the local scenes.
|
EG and Liquid got exactly what they wanted: their players stay meanwhile the entry level is a lot harder for other koreans.
|
sounds like OGN gave up on SC2.
|
United States15275 Posts
On November 21 2013 16:30 bourne117 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 16:04 Yakikorosu wrote:
I think what Blizzard did was a pretty good choice when faced with only imperfect options. Would it really have been better to kick out all the Koreans except Polt (or all the Koreans except the those that finished top 8) and have an influx of foreigners into Premier League who got in just by winning a single series against another foreigner?
Also, let's be honest, while there are plenty of very strong Koreans in WCS AM there are also plenty that are far from impossible for a good foreigner to beat. Apocalypse, TheStC, Tassadar, Arthur, NesTea (sorry NesTea)... not saying they're not still better than most foreigners but it's also not like we're talking about an unstoppable all-star team. Exactly. People act like its code S level players coming to WCS AM and EU. Taeja was the ONLY player who gave up code S to come over. Hero was the ONLY player to give up Code A. Everyone else wasn't even in code A when WCS was announced. JD now is probably a code S level player. Polt is also but had already left because of school. So we have 4 clear Code S/B players. Most of the rest are not at this level. If the american scene can't produce players capable of beating Korea's scraps they don't deserve the premier league tournament slots.
Sadly, the American scene has never proven itself capable of consistently dealing with non-Code S Koreans. One only needs to look at the history of Korean pickups by smaller American teams to see that.
|
I'm still not too pessimistic about the changes. I agree with Blizz; we aren't going to create strong foreigners by having them fight exclusively other foreigners. I think people would be way more disappointed if a bunch of foreigners went to Blizzcon just to get smashed. It isn't fair to the giant pool of talented Koreans, and it's not going to push foreigners to play at a world class level.
|
I think the changes were about as good as they could've been, and honestly, it's the presence of Koreans that keeps me interested in WCS America, so I'm happy with it.
|
Definitely agree that not a lot is changing practically, but this gives them a decent base to work from. It's not ideal, but it's a huge improvement over last year. Hope it gets sorted, and maybe trying to get OGN to host a tournament of their own to open up more opportunities in Korea is another thing Blizzard needs to consider.
|
|
|
This is really not that big of a deal to me, honestly.
I think, with this system, eventually Koreans will become less and less prevalent in the league for a bunch of reasons. Foreign skill will increase (slowly) as they have more incentive to play, and there will be the inevitable group stage of premier where three Koreans will be in the same group, effectively eliminating one and making it daunting for them to requalify.
Enough time and the system will de-incentivize too many Koreans from coming in and taking all those sweet, sweet esports dollars.
|
now with numbers more explained, and names, the region lock means almost nothing
the America scene will continue to struggle
|
On November 21 2013 21:43 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 20:28 hellokittySC2 wrote:On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote:On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works. So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not. for once i actually agree with something avilo (aka someone i dislike very much) has said. with all the support/disagreements to WCS and region lock, the way blizzard has done things is really disheartening for NA pro gamers like me to be motivated to practice hard since i'm probably just going to get knocked out by some koreans in challenger league or first/second round of premier league without ever being able to dream of even placing any higher. Even though i am on an European team, you don't see me traveling to Europe to compete in WCS EU right? I'd feel very un-welcomed and un-easy to play there compare to my now-so-called-home, AMERICA. I guess my point is that the moves blizzard is making is hurting the scene and (i am calling Kim and the rest of her crew out) it's due to incompetent people who are not familiar with e-Sports and its community in general. TLDR: If this continues there will be more foreign pros on NA who will walk deeper into despair and eventually leave this terrible system and go into league/dota2 If you 'ban' the Koreans the competition is worse and natural human behaviour is being lazy. If you can win prize money by beating other players from your region which you obivously already can (and most of the US players can) , most of them won't practice hard to begin with, because its not needed to place highly. Also it completely makes the Blizzcon finals what Blizzard doesn't want it to be. Just another tournament. It should be the best of the best and the WCS system in 2014 won't provide that. Also to your note that you could compete in Europe, you are very welcome here. Happy will be your present.
EU and NA players practice hard when it comes down to WCS i can asure you that no matter what oponents they face.
Koreans can already participate in every tournament in the world + WCS KR , can you give me a reason why they should be allowed to play on WCS NA or WCS EU ? The only koreans that should be able to participate should be those who help the specific region such as : ForGG , Stardust etc.
|
United States23455 Posts
So advancement from last season's challenger doesn't really mean anything?
|
On November 22 2013 00:08 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 21:43 NarutO wrote:On November 21 2013 20:28 hellokittySC2 wrote:On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote:On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works. So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not. for once i actually agree with something avilo (aka someone i dislike very much) has said. with all the support/disagreements to WCS and region lock, the way blizzard has done things is really disheartening for NA pro gamers like me to be motivated to practice hard since i'm probably just going to get knocked out by some koreans in challenger league or first/second round of premier league without ever being able to dream of even placing any higher. Even though i am on an European team, you don't see me traveling to Europe to compete in WCS EU right? I'd feel very un-welcomed and un-easy to play there compare to my now-so-called-home, AMERICA. I guess my point is that the moves blizzard is making is hurting the scene and (i am calling Kim and the rest of her crew out) it's due to incompetent people who are not familiar with e-Sports and its community in general. TLDR: If this continues there will be more foreign pros on NA who will walk deeper into despair and eventually leave this terrible system and go into league/dota2 If you 'ban' the Koreans the competition is worse and natural human behaviour is being lazy. If you can win prize money by beating other players from your region which you obivously already can (and most of the US players can) , most of them won't practice hard to begin with, because its not needed to place highly. Also it completely makes the Blizzcon finals what Blizzard doesn't want it to be. Just another tournament. It should be the best of the best and the WCS system in 2014 won't provide that. Also to your note that you could compete in Europe, you are very welcome here. Happy will be your present. EU and NA players practice hard when it comes down to WCS i can asure you that no matter what oponents they face. Koreans can already participate in every tournament in the world + WCS KR , can you give me a reason why they should be allowed to play on WCS NA or WCS EU ? The only koreans that should be able to participate should be those who help the specific region such as : ForGG , Stardust etc.
Can you tell me a reason why rich and strong people don't enslave poor and weak? Its not right. If you make a WCS (World Championship Series) its a world competition, this includes people that are willing to accept disadvantages or travel time to participate. Those Koreans are willing to do so and even with those disadvantages (even though NA/KR isnt was bad) they manage to win against the competition.
As I said, feel free to host events for the NA/EU scene anytime in a smaller scale, but if its about world competition, you shouldn't ban anyone.
|
I think something that has been forgotten is the fact that IF a korean was to drop out, he is basicly fucked for the rest of the year. Say Tassadar or Nestea drops out and has to requalify for challenger... well there's 2-3 spots for them where they have to fight every other korean who wants to play in WCS AM. Suddenly they will have nothing to play for during the whole 2014 wcs season, should they fail to be one of the 2 best koreans trying to get in.
In fact, it will be much easier for these players to get into Code A in korea, where they also happen to live. This might cause the people who aren't sure they will always be in the system to go back to korea. It's only really worth the risk if you are a Jaedong, Taeja, Polt... players that will not drop out before hell freezes over.
|
I would really like to see Ro16 100% Korean from now on (easily possible), just as a kick in the face for all the fans of region lock
|
On November 22 2013 00:10 Darkhoarse wrote:
So advancement from last season's challenger doesn't really mean anything?
It automatically seeds you into Challenger for first season of 2014. Otherwise you would have to go through the qualifiers just to get into Challenger.
|
On November 21 2013 21:43 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 20:28 hellokittySC2 wrote:On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote:On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works. So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not. for once i actually agree with something avilo (aka someone i dislike very much) has said. with all the support/disagreements to WCS and region lock, the way blizzard has done things is really disheartening for NA pro gamers like me to be motivated to practice hard since i'm probably just going to get knocked out by some koreans in challenger league or first/second round of premier league without ever being able to dream of even placing any higher. Even though i am on an European team, you don't see me traveling to Europe to compete in WCS EU right? I'd feel very un-welcomed and un-easy to play there compare to my now-so-called-home, AMERICA. I guess my point is that the moves blizzard is making is hurting the scene and (i am calling Kim and the rest of her crew out) it's due to incompetent people who are not familiar with e-Sports and its community in general. TLDR: If this continues there will be more foreign pros on NA who will walk deeper into despair and eventually leave this terrible system and go into league/dota2 If you 'ban' the Koreans the competition is worse and natural human behaviour is being lazy. If you can win prize money by beating other players from your region which you obivously already can (and most of the US players can) , most of them won't practice hard to begin with, because its not needed to place highly. Also it completely makes the Blizzcon finals what Blizzard doesn't want it to be. Just another tournament. It should be the best of the best and the WCS system in 2014 won't provide that. Also to your note that you could compete in Europe, you are very welcome here. Happy will be your present.
You're neglecting a huge flaw in that logic. If the Koreans are part of an NA tournament where the prize money is negligible until you get to the top, you have to weigh your options. Do you A) play 20 hours a day on the NA ladder (or KR ladder with lag) to get to possibly the level the Koreans are at currently in an attempt to beat them to the top, or do you B) ... not forsake any sort of fun and home life, or school and career because you can't do anything else and realize that your chances are incredibly slim no matter the amount of effort you put in?
When there is a real, attainable goal that isn't outside the realm of possibility (such as beating the best NA players) then that's something that you can work your ass towards and eventually attain. Players aren't going to be lazy about this, the first NA pro that gets knocked out of this tournament will work twice as hard to get back in, in theory, because they can. It will create a clear, constant improvement of players as each one tries to get one up on the next one.
Having the extreme goal of beating the best Koreans consistently is absolutely what we want eventually, but we wont get there overnight and dissuading those pros with the talent to get there by beating them to death with the truck that is the higher level Korean players is the wrong way to improve quality of play. Things aren't nearly the same in Korea as they are in the "foreigner" countries and we can't just copy and paste the same play environment and expect them to end up the same way. It's absolutely unattainable.
I think you're completely wrong in your belief that the 2014 system will provide the best games at blizzcon, but I'm willing to believe that time will tell.
|
Canada16217 Posts
|
On November 22 2013 00:42 opisska wrote:I would really like to see Ro16 100% Korean from now on (easily possible), just as a kick in the face for all the fans of region lock
Probably will happen in America but no way it can happen in Europe.
|
wooooo these changes are huge for WCS NA! Oh wait........ you mean you are limiting the amount of koreans that can qualify for a season but they already have 19 spots occupied in NA. GLHF to any foreigner trying to compete in WCS NA. I'm guessing a whole lot of players will be retiring after not making it into season 1 of 2014 or after getting mopped up by the koreans that will probably have at least 12 players in premiere league.
However, I don't care as long as Jaedong is there :D
<<< 100% bias if Jaedong is there and 100% against the current system if Jaedong goes elsewhere
|
On November 22 2013 01:49 LimeNade wrote:
wooooo these changes are huge for WCS NA! Oh wait........ you mean you are limiting the amount of koreans that can qualify for a season but they already have 19 spots occupied in NA. GLHF to any foreigner trying to compete in WCS NA. I'm guessing a whole lot of players will be retiring after not making it into season 1 of 2014 or after getting mopped up by the koreans that will probably have at least 12 players in premiere league.
However, I don't care as long as Jaedong is there :D
<<< 100% bias if Jaedong is there and 100% against the current system if Jaedong goes elsewhere
You are never going to have a Perfect system but this is a good step in the right direction.
|
I don't really see the problem here.
|
I was very concerned before about the future of the Korean players (still am), but this sounds overall like a fair deal, and will at least give them a chance. And the return of the GSL can only be good
My GOMTV ticket was horribly underused this year.... every day I would go to watch SC2, and I all I would see is lists and lists of videos for freaking World of Tanks and very little Starcraft. I expect next year will be better!
Maybe this will give a reason for MKP to come back in LotV someday? :D One can only hope.
|
Good thing its not a complete region lock.
While I love seeing foreigners play, I'd rather see a "good" Korean then another "mediocre" foreigner.
|
So, let me see if I got this right. WCS America 2014 Season 1 will possibly (likely) still have a large amount of Koreans participating but they will potentially sort of filter out as we progress from season to season?
I don't really have a problem either way, I enjoy watching players like Polt, Hyun. Hero and Taeja but it definitely will be nice if by America Season 3 we have better representation from the other nations.
|
On November 22 2013 00:06 JP Dayne wrote:
now with numbers more explained, and names, the region lock means almost nothing
the America scene will continue to struggle
Continually blaming someone else for the lack of a weaker US scene is going to accomplish nothing. Blizz pretty much made the only and probably best call here, the Koreans that are in will stay in until they can be knocked out by someone in the Americas ladder. It's now up to the NA players to take advantage of the situation.
|
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A/B level Koreans owning the NA region via online and knocking all the regular and up and coming foreigners out for easy money and points.
But after WCS 2013 and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents a platter of information to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... and hey, you guessed it, MORE PRACTICE! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results. Retire, get a job, or go to school.
However, after reading the post by Blizzard. I expect 2014 to be a much better year for WCS. They gained a lot of knowledge and experience from 2013.
|
On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A&B Koreans (Not the top finishers) owning the NA region through the online qualifiers and knocking all the foreigners out for easy money overnight. It still is a good idea to have a partial region lock, the best would be a residential lock, as in you have to be living (no citizenship) in the region you're playing in. They've changed that mostly for 2014 which is good.
Still, after WCS 2013 being and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents something to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... hey! More practice! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results, retire and get a job or go to school.
You have a point here sir. Maybe less streaming session and more of "I need to win/get into RO4 to have money". Streaming giving to much easy money and maybe foreigners players count too much on that. (I said MAYBE,plz dont hurt me).
|
On November 22 2013 02:33 SinO[Ob] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A&B Koreans (Not the top finishers) owning the NA region through the online qualifiers and knocking all the foreigners out for easy money overnight. It still is a good idea to have a partial region lock, the best would be a residential lock, as in you have to be living (no citizenship) in the region you're playing in. They've changed that mostly for 2014 which is good.
Still, after WCS 2013 being and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents something to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... hey! More practice! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results, retire and get a job or go to school. You have a point here sir. Maybe less streaming session and more of "I need to win/get into RO4 to have money". Streaming giving to much easy money and maybe foreigners players count too much on that. (I said MAYBE,plz dont hurt me).
Does anyone have an idea of how much money streaming really pays (for the regular top streamers)? I have a rough idea but I'm not totally positive. However, I get the impression that it's kind of a greed thing. I'm sure most of the regular and popular players get enough money from their teams and sponsors. I'm not sure if the ridiculous amount of streaming is necessary.
|
On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A/B level Koreans (Not the top finishers like Polt or Jaedong) owning the NA region online overnight and knocking all the regular and up and coming foreigners out for easy money and points.
But after WCS 2013 being finished and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents a platter of information study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... and hey, you guessed it, MORE PRACTICE! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results. Retire, get a job, or go to school.
However, after reading the post by Blizzard. I expect 2014 to be a much better year for WCS. They gained a lot of knowledge and experience from 2013.
I agree. To all the people who think that "knocking all the regular and up and coming foreigners out" is "easy money and points", why haven't other foreigners made this yet? Guess it is not so easy after all...
|
On November 22 2013 02:33 SinO[Ob] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A&B Koreans (Not the top finishers) owning the NA region through the online qualifiers and knocking all the foreigners out for easy money overnight. It still is a good idea to have a partial region lock, the best would be a residential lock, as in you have to be living (no citizenship) in the region you're playing in. They've changed that mostly for 2014 which is good.
Still, after WCS 2013 being and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents something to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... hey! More practice! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results, retire and get a job or go to school. You have a point here sir. Maybe less streaming session and more of "I need to win/get into RO4 to have money". Streaming giving to much easy money and maybe foreigners players count too much on that. (I said MAYBE,plz dont hurt me).
Sadly, bills and rent are OP and can't be nerfed by Blizzard, so streaming will always be necessary for players, especially of they want sponsors.
|
On November 22 2013 02:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 02:33 SinO[Ob] wrote:On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A&B Koreans (Not the top finishers) owning the NA region through the online qualifiers and knocking all the foreigners out for easy money overnight. It still is a good idea to have a partial region lock, the best would be a residential lock, as in you have to be living (no citizenship) in the region you're playing in. They've changed that mostly for 2014 which is good.
Still, after WCS 2013 being and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents something to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... hey! More practice! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results, retire and get a job or go to school. You have a point here sir. Maybe less streaming session and more of "I need to win/get into RO4 to have money". Streaming giving to much easy money and maybe foreigners players count too much on that. (I said MAYBE,plz dont hurt me). Sadly, bills and rent are OP and can't be nerfed by Blizzard, so streaming will always be necessary for players, especially of they want sponsors.
Well you will get more sponsors by kicking asses in tournaments than ladder :>.
|
On November 22 2013 03:02 SinO[Ob] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 02:47 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2013 02:33 SinO[Ob] wrote:On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A&B Koreans (Not the top finishers) owning the NA region through the online qualifiers and knocking all the foreigners out for easy money overnight. It still is a good idea to have a partial region lock, the best would be a residential lock, as in you have to be living (no citizenship) in the region you're playing in. They've changed that mostly for 2014 which is good.
Still, after WCS 2013 being and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents something to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... hey! More practice! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results, retire and get a job or go to school. You have a point here sir. Maybe less streaming session and more of "I need to win/get into RO4 to have money". Streaming giving to much easy money and maybe foreigners players count too much on that. (I said MAYBE,plz dont hurt me). Sadly, bills and rent are OP and can't be nerfed by Blizzard, so streaming will always be necessary for players, especially of they want sponsors. Well you will get more sponsors by kicking asses in tournaments than ladder :>.
Absolutely, completely, 100% wrong. It has been said more than enough times that this is completely incorrect. Eyes on the player/advertisements are whats important. Whether or not the eyes see that player win a championship matters very little here.
|
he is not completely wrong. but there are more factors than named here to get sponsorship and ladder / tournament wins / stream are just little pieces of the pie.
|
On November 21 2013 16:21 tadL wrote:
What Koreans Oo. I see there just player from TL, EG, Axiom and other foreigner Teams. Blame them for bringing Koreans in and not believing in their own foreigner players/playerbase. (I do not like this kind of witch hunt driven by foreigners that try to change a system so they do not have to improve to earn a good chunk of the money pit.)
Damn unfortunately this rings painfully truer to my ears than I would like to admit. (Although I'd had liked you elaborate a bit more on that)
|
On November 22 2013 03:13 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 03:02 SinO[Ob] wrote:On November 22 2013 02:47 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2013 02:33 SinO[Ob] wrote:On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A&B Koreans (Not the top finishers) owning the NA region through the online qualifiers and knocking all the foreigners out for easy money overnight. It still is a good idea to have a partial region lock, the best would be a residential lock, as in you have to be living (no citizenship) in the region you're playing in. They've changed that mostly for 2014 which is good.
Still, after WCS 2013 being and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents something to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... hey! More practice! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results, retire and get a job or go to school. You have a point here sir. Maybe less streaming session and more of "I need to win/get into RO4 to have money". Streaming giving to much easy money and maybe foreigners players count too much on that. (I said MAYBE,plz dont hurt me). Sadly, bills and rent are OP and can't be nerfed by Blizzard, so streaming will always be necessary for players, especially of they want sponsors. Well you will get more sponsors by kicking asses in tournaments than ladder :>. Absolutely, completely, 100% wrong. It has been said more than enough times that this is completely incorrect. Eyes on the player/advertisements are whats important. Whether or not the eyes see that player win a championship matters very little here.
So every grand master have 15 sponsors cause they are good in ladder and streaming from time to time? Dont think so.
|
Also there's a commun logical fallacy in the idea that because the number of koreans doesn't decrease, the system changes nothing. The system already changed in the fact that the number of koreans won't increase. If you're going by steps, that's already one.
|
WCS America is sadly still gonna be WCS Korea 2.0.
|
On November 22 2013 03:13 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 03:02 SinO[Ob] wrote:On November 22 2013 02:47 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2013 02:33 SinO[Ob] wrote:On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A&B Koreans (Not the top finishers) owning the NA region through the online qualifiers and knocking all the foreigners out for easy money overnight. It still is a good idea to have a partial region lock, the best would be a residential lock, as in you have to be living (no citizenship) in the region you're playing in. They've changed that mostly for 2014 which is good.
Still, after WCS 2013 being and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents something to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... hey! More practice! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results, retire and get a job or go to school. You have a point here sir. Maybe less streaming session and more of "I need to win/get into RO4 to have money". Streaming giving to much easy money and maybe foreigners players count too much on that. (I said MAYBE,plz dont hurt me). Sadly, bills and rent are OP and can't be nerfed by Blizzard, so streaming will always be necessary for players, especially of they want sponsors. Well you will get more sponsors by kicking asses in tournaments than ladder :>. Absolutely, completely, 100% wrong. It has been said more than enough times that this is completely incorrect. Eyes on the player/advertisements are whats important. Whether or not the eyes see that player win a championship matters very little here.
lol you really don't think winning affects marketability? Are you nuts? Idra and Destiny are exceptions, not rules.
The foreign scene will never reach the korean scene for the sole reason foreigners aren't winning to move to small ass houses with 2-3 players per bedroom and practice 10 hours a day with a coach overseeing everything and enforcing the practice regime while giving up the rest of their lives in the search for success. (Also this is much harder to do since US/EU doesn't have a Seoul)
I don't blame them, I couldn't do that either. But they shouldn't be rewarded for that imo. I'm glad the Koreans are staying if the money/point are also staying
|
On November 22 2013 04:10 Zygno wrote:
WCS America is sadly still gonna be WCS Korea 2.0.
That isn`t what I`d call sad considering those players earned their right to compete in those prelims. If anything foreigners have to pick up the pace and they need more practice against these guys.
|
On November 22 2013 03:02 SinO[Ob] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 02:47 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2013 02:33 SinO[Ob] wrote:On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A&B Koreans (Not the top finishers) owning the NA region through the online qualifiers and knocking all the foreigners out for easy money overnight. It still is a good idea to have a partial region lock, the best would be a residential lock, as in you have to be living (no citizenship) in the region you're playing in. They've changed that mostly for 2014 which is good.
Still, after WCS 2013 being and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents something to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... hey! More practice! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results, retire and get a job or go to school. You have a point here sir. Maybe less streaming session and more of "I need to win/get into RO4 to have money". Streaming giving to much easy money and maybe foreigners players count too much on that. (I said MAYBE,plz dont hurt me). Sadly, bills and rent are OP and can't be nerfed by Blizzard, so streaming will always be necessary for players, especially of they want sponsors. Well you will get more sponsors by kicking asses in tournaments than ladder :>.
That doesn't really help you if yor rent is due in 2 weeks or you've got some student loans that are due.
|
On November 22 2013 04:14 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 04:10 Zygno wrote:
WCS America is sadly still gonna be WCS Korea 2.0. That isn`t what I`d call sad considering those players earned their right to compete in those prelims. If anything foreigners have to pick up the pace and they need more practice against these guys.
Like QxC and Demuslim both have pointed out in interviews and such You don't get any real practice vses these players until these events.... Then its 1 BO3 and you are out ...... You don't get a whole lot of practice against them thats why ALOT of players are ok with them playing in NA or EU as long as they practice there in the first place.....
Korean don't want to do that though because the best place to practice is ..... KOREA! LOL It's definitely the complete definition of a catch 22.
|
I hate nationalism and every ideology attached to it. Why does the geographical location of a person's birth matter so much? It is so baffling.
|
after reading this i'm thinking that next year isn't going to be much different from this one.
oh shit besides the greatest news iv'e heard in a while GSL GSL GSL
|
On November 22 2013 04:13 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 03:13 Noobity wrote:On November 22 2013 03:02 SinO[Ob] wrote:On November 22 2013 02:47 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2013 02:33 SinO[Ob] wrote:On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A&B Koreans (Not the top finishers) owning the NA region through the online qualifiers and knocking all the foreigners out for easy money overnight. It still is a good idea to have a partial region lock, the best would be a residential lock, as in you have to be living (no citizenship) in the region you're playing in. They've changed that mostly for 2014 which is good.
Still, after WCS 2013 being and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents something to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... hey! More practice! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results, retire and get a job or go to school. You have a point here sir. Maybe less streaming session and more of "I need to win/get into RO4 to have money". Streaming giving to much easy money and maybe foreigners players count too much on that. (I said MAYBE,plz dont hurt me). Sadly, bills and rent are OP and can't be nerfed by Blizzard, so streaming will always be necessary for players, especially of they want sponsors. Well you will get more sponsors by kicking asses in tournaments than ladder :>. Absolutely, completely, 100% wrong. It has been said more than enough times that this is completely incorrect. Eyes on the player/advertisements are whats important. Whether or not the eyes see that player win a championship matters very little here. lol you really don't think winning affects marketability? Are you nuts? Idra and Destiny are exceptions, not rules. The foreign scene will never reach the korean scene for the sole reason foreigners aren't winning to move to small ass houses with 2-3 players per bedroom and practice 10 hours a day with a coach overseeing everything and enforcing the practice regime while giving up the rest of their lives in the search for success. (Also this is much harder to do since US/EU doesn't have a Seoul) I don't blame them, I couldn't do that either. But they shouldn't be rewarded for that imo. I'm glad the Koreans are staying if the money/point are also staying
Facts show that it doesn't mean the world to win. Sponsors definitely aren't lining up to sponsor the best two teams in the world (the top two in Proleague). SouL lost their sponsorship, and Woongjin Stars just have two players. You know the best funded eSports team in SC2? It was built on the marketability of world champions like incontrol, machine, idra and demuslim.
Even if foreigners moved into small ass houses, they wouldn't be able to compete with Koreans. There are no people who have the experience necessary to be coaches. They don't have a culture fostered by 10 years of professional Brood War. They don't have the high skilled player base. They don't have the team atmosphere resulting from competitive team leagues. They most probably will never find a job in eSports once they are too old to compete.
|
The prize pools have to change - especially if you're bringing in more NA foreigners. There's no way you can justify paying out he current money to a NA player not named Scarlett [or I guess Polt if we're going by Blizzard's definition]. Korea needs to be bigger - NA smaller - EU is probably fine where it is. I don't think enough people are acknowledging the viewership issues thatau come with less Koreans in the bracket. Sure the TL crowd wants to cheer for the locals - but the casual fan is just going to see a crappy performance and move on. There's no way NA can compete with the talent coming out of EU
Much less ever hope to make a dent running up against Korea.
|
On November 22 2013 04:57 ctbower5 wrote:
The prize pools have to change - especially if you're bringing in more NA foreigners. There's no way you can justify paying out the current money to a NA player not named Scarlett [or I guess Polt if we're going by Blizzard's definition]. Korea needs to be bigger - NA smaller - EU is probably fine where it is. I don't think enough people are acknowledging the viewership issues that may come with less Koreans in the bracket. Sure the TL crowd wants to cheer for the locals - but the casual fan is just going to see a crappy performance and move on. There's no way NA can compete with the talent coming out of EU
Much less ever hope to make a dent running up against Korea.
|
On November 22 2013 04:30 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 04:14 StarStruck wrote:On November 22 2013 04:10 Zygno wrote:
WCS America is sadly still gonna be WCS Korea 2.0. That isn`t what I`d call sad considering those players earned their right to compete in those prelims. If anything foreigners have to pick up the pace and they need more practice against these guys. Like QxC and Demuslim both have pointed out in interviews and such You don't get any real practice vses these players until these events.... Then its 1 BO3 and you are out ...... You don't get a whole lot of practice against them thats why ALOT of players are ok with them playing in NA or EU as long as they practice there in the first place..... Korean don't want to do that though because the best place to practice is ..... KOREA! LOL It's definitely the complete definition of a catch 22.
and what do you think I`ve said time and time again? Maybe people should be looking more into what I propose. You know, someone who is unbiased and has no more affiliation to any organization in this line of sport. There is a way to do such things, but Blizzard likes doing things their own way and rather not kibosh what they had completely. Instead we get patches hue. I'm well aware of all the intricacies and problems associated with each format, but there is a way to make everyone get just a little better and they goes back to the idea of more kicks at the can. This should sound familiar to anyone who reads about formats, region-locking, etc. considering I keep bringing up such things as well as point out the con's and pro's of each.
|
they could've blocked koreans from playing in the WCS AM qualifier entirely for this year and/or mix up the challenger league matches so it's random instead of old vs new
|
Well at least now we'll have more home-grown talent competing and not immediately getting knocked out by Koreans.
|
Since this is a bit rough on players from the SEA region as well I'd love to see that opened as a WCS region as well. Everything I've seen suggests this is still unlikely though, yeah?
|
On November 22 2013 04:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 03:02 SinO[Ob] wrote:On November 22 2013 02:47 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2013 02:33 SinO[Ob] wrote:On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A&B Koreans (Not the top finishers) owning the NA region through the online qualifiers and knocking all the foreigners out for easy money overnight. It still is a good idea to have a partial region lock, the best would be a residential lock, as in you have to be living (no citizenship) in the region you're playing in. They've changed that mostly for 2014 which is good.
Still, after WCS 2013 being and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents something to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... hey! More practice! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results, retire and get a job or go to school. You have a point here sir. Maybe less streaming session and more of "I need to win/get into RO4 to have money". Streaming giving to much easy money and maybe foreigners players count too much on that. (I said MAYBE,plz dont hurt me). Sadly, bills and rent are OP and can't be nerfed by Blizzard, so streaming will always be necessary for players, especially of they want sponsors. Well you will get more sponsors by kicking asses in tournaments than ladder :>. That doesn't really help you if yor rent is due in 2 weeks or you've got some student loans that are due.
I feel like everyone should know that the life of a progamer isn't really that well paying unless you have a really big stream OR you are actually winning things. I would hope that these players knew exactly what they were getting into before they took the jump.
|
"Sometimes, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette"
Sorry, but that's such a nonsense. These aren't foods, these are humans. Humans, who dedicated their lives to esports and risked a lot playing in US. To kick them out of WCS AM would kick quite some of them instant out of esports, standing there with empty hands, not prepared for alternatives in their lives.
Blizzard did the only right thing - they're taking responsibility for what they had caused. It could have been better from the beginning, but one can't act like the things, that happened, didn't happen.
I have to say, I'm seriously appalled to read such a thing here on TL from you, Waxangel
|
Actually, I don't like this article as a featured news item at all.
It seems to me like Waxangel doesn't agree with the desicions made by Blizzard or is applying some weird system of critical journalism. I think the debate about this must go on, but I don't like it that one opinion is stated this clearly in such an article.
If it was a blog post however, there wouldn't be any problem for me.
For me, I like the changes Blizzard made, even though there is still this "flaw" (some wouldn't call it a flaw, but a necessary thing to have Koreans in WCS AM) in the system. And it would be a bit unfair to throw all the Koreans out, when you're trying to get a mix of local talent and good players from other regions.
|
On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A/B level Koreans owning the NA region via online and knocking all the regular and up and coming foreigners out for easy money and points.
But after WCS 2013 and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents a platter of information to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... and hey, you guessed it, MORE PRACTICE! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results. Retire, get a job, or go to school.
However, after reading the post by Blizzard. I expect 2014 to be a much better year for WCS. They gained a lot of knowledge and experience from 2013.
You're wrong on two counts. Firstly, talent is relevant, but only in two places: at the very bottom, where nobody is practicing, and at the very top, where everybody is practicing their hearts out. You think everybody could become MVP if they just practiced as hard as MVP? Hell no. Nobody could say the same for Flash, Jaedong, Nestea or really any of the other greats. Talent is very relevant.
Secondly, Koreans are better than foreigners because they have 1: more reason to succeed and 2: more resources to succeed. Has it ever occurred to you that the vast majority of the top players in the entire world live within only about 100 miles of each other? Hell, the very best live even closer than that. This proximity, both in real life and on the internet (Korean server), breeds more talent because of accessibility. Korea's dominance is self-sustaining because of this. They have access to the very best practice partners, the very best guides, the very best coaches, the most practice partners and the most coaches. They also very likely have more access to friends that play Starcraft than nearly anywhere else in the world. Also, they have extremely easy access to teamhouses, where they don't need to worry about rent, cleaning, dishes, buying food, cooking food, other jobs or anything else but Starcarft. They also live right next to close to a dozen of the top 300 players in the world. Oh, and they don't have to worry about travel costs.
As for why Koreans have more reason to succeed, well, Korean education is absurdly cutthroat so they fall behind being a progamer by default and many Koreans were dumb enough to go all-in on progaming.
With all of these benefits, it makes sense that Koreans completely and absolutely annihilate foreigners. More importantly, because Koreans annihilate foreigners, foreigners have less reason to succeed (they have a stupendously huge skill gap they need to cover) and less resources to succeed (Koreans have all of their resources plus they take most of the resources the foreigners have), which feeds into the weakness of foreigners, which feeds into the strength of Koreans, and so on and so forth.
Korean dominance is self-enforcing and self-perpetuating. We have no reason to believe foreigners will ever be on par with Koreans unless foreigners get "handouts".
One last issue to consider: there are many, many viewers who love foreigners because they are far more relatable than some faceless Korean with a name you'll never memorize, a personality the same as all the other Koreans, born in the same place as all the other Koreans and living in the same place and conditions than all the other Koreans. Distinguishing facts are actually actively hidden by most Koreans, it's practically in their culture to be a perfectly homogeneous band of foreigner-killers.
While you may enjoy watching the best players in the world, most people want to be able to relate to players. You enjoy watching tournaments (once the initial awe at the skill-level runs out) because you are emotionally invested in the matches, and the number one way that happens is by giving a shit about the players. Relatable players make this a thousand times easier. Also, most viewers are too bad at the game to differentiate between foreigners and Koreans unless they face each other directly. Foreigner vs. foreigner matches seem just as skillful to the average viewer as Korean vs. Korean matches. Sometimes they're even more exciting, because players have far more options since their opponents don't have the surgeon's skill necessary to dismantle all but the most optimized playstyles and build orders.
|
On November 22 2013 05:35 Negius wrote:
Actually, I don't like this article as a featured news item at all.
It seems to me like Waxangel doesn't agree with the desicions made by Blizzard or is applying some weird system of critical journalism. I think the debate about this must go on, but I don't like it that one opinion is stated this clearly in such an article.
If it was a blog post however, there wouldn't be any problem for me.
For me, I like the changes Blizzard made, even though there is still this "flaw" (some wouldn't call it a flaw, but a necessary thing to have Koreans in WCS AM) in the system. And it would be a bit unfair to throw all the Koreans out, when you're trying to get a mix of local talent and good players from other regions.
Blizzard wanted to give foreigners more of a chance in WCS AM, but as it stands things are going to end up functionally nearly exactly the same. This is inherently bad because Blizzard has failed to accomplish their stated goals with the actions they took specifically to accomplish those goals. Yes, it would be horrendously unfair to throw all the Koreans out, but it really doesn't seem like these changes are going to help out foreigners much either.
Blizzard made the best of the worst situation, but that doesn't mean things have gotten much better or even really changed all that much.
|
Sorry, but most of the Koreans playing in NA are far from invincible and if no foreigner can be found to beat guys like Arthur or Sage, then foreigners simply don't deserve the spots. The new system is a vast improvement and keeping the old players in is simply a matter of fairness.
I'm also kind of disgusted by the suggestion that Blizz has "to break a few eggs to make an omelette" and should just kick them out. Sure, guys like Jaedong could propably enter the GSL, but for some of the less accomplished players on less wealthy teams NA is the only stage they have to show themselves to the public and booting them out would propably be the end of their career.
|
On November 22 2013 04:13 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 03:13 Noobity wrote:On November 22 2013 03:02 SinO[Ob] wrote:On November 22 2013 02:47 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2013 02:33 SinO[Ob] wrote:On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A&B Koreans (Not the top finishers) owning the NA region through the online qualifiers and knocking all the foreigners out for easy money overnight. It still is a good idea to have a partial region lock, the best would be a residential lock, as in you have to be living (no citizenship) in the region you're playing in. They've changed that mostly for 2014 which is good.
Still, after WCS 2013 being and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents something to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... hey! More practice! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results, retire and get a job or go to school. You have a point here sir. Maybe less streaming session and more of "I need to win/get into RO4 to have money". Streaming giving to much easy money and maybe foreigners players count too much on that. (I said MAYBE,plz dont hurt me). Sadly, bills and rent are OP and can't be nerfed by Blizzard, so streaming will always be necessary for players, especially of they want sponsors. Well you will get more sponsors by kicking asses in tournaments than ladder :>. Absolutely, completely, 100% wrong. It has been said more than enough times that this is completely incorrect. Eyes on the player/advertisements are whats important. Whether or not the eyes see that player win a championship matters very little here. lol you really don't think winning affects marketability? Are you nuts? Idra and Destiny are exceptions, not rules. The foreign scene will never reach the korean scene for the sole reason foreigners aren't winning to move to small ass houses with 2-3 players per bedroom and practice 10 hours a day with a coach overseeing everything and enforcing the practice regime while giving up the rest of their lives in the search for success. (Also this is much harder to do since US/EU doesn't have a Seoul) I don't blame them, I couldn't do that either. But they shouldn't be rewarded for that imo. I'm glad the Koreans are staying if the money/point are also staying
At no point did I say winning doesn't affect marketability. I said that "you will get more sponsors by kicking asses in tournaments then ladder" was 100% wrong. In hindsight, I should have just said "You get more sponsors by being marketable, and that skill doesn't really mean anything at all". Incontrol will, until he does something remarkably stupid, be the most marketable figure in Starcraft 2. When was the last time he won a major tournament? Given the choice between him and Flash the sponsors will go to him unless they are focusing strictly on the Korean speaking market, and even then the guy is smart enough to learn enough Korean to probably get by.
Don't give me that "lol you..." bullshit either, that's a deliberate statement meant to illicit a negative response, and is a dick tactic.
|
probably is my english but i don't understand that table, what is it for? slots etc.
i mean, table says: "In 2014, we will reserve most qualifier slots for citizens and legal residents of the home regions for both WCS America and WCS Europe."
and in article it is said that there is a chance 22 koreans will make it to premier...
can someone explain those numbers in table?
|
On November 21 2013 18:02 Bjarne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 17:25 robertpires87 wrote:On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote:On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works. So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not. For me WCS NA is supposed to be like US Open, not like the Davis Cup (national teams), where the best of the best of the world compete to become the champion. If the best of the best are mostly Koreans, so be it. Regional competition should be conducted by local sponsors and local tournaments. It is not Blizzard's fault that there is a lack of demand for NA only SC2 tournaments I think avilo is right on that point. WCS NA should NOT be "US Open" where the best of the best meet. Blizzcon is the event, where the best of the best meet. WCS NA should be for NA players. You cannot argue, that only skill matters. If that was right, the soccer WM would consist of 18 European Teams and 6 South America Teams. More skill, but less fun to watch for sure. I opted for a more intensive region lock but im fine with blizzards decision.
Huge flaw in your logic. How can Blizzcon be the event where the best of the best meet when 2 of the major feeder tournaments have a regional lock, even one as soft as this is? By definition, the players who get to Blizzcon from WCS EU and AM aren't the best of the best.
|
On November 22 2013 07:25 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 18:02 Bjarne wrote:On November 21 2013 17:25 robertpires87 wrote:On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote:On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works. So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not. For me WCS NA is supposed to be like US Open, not like the Davis Cup (national teams), where the best of the best of the world compete to become the champion. If the best of the best are mostly Koreans, so be it. Regional competition should be conducted by local sponsors and local tournaments. It is not Blizzard's fault that there is a lack of demand for NA only SC2 tournaments I think avilo is right on that point. WCS NA should NOT be "US Open" where the best of the best meet. Blizzcon is the event, where the best of the best meet. WCS NA should be for NA players. You cannot argue, that only skill matters. If that was right, the soccer WM would consist of 18 European Teams and 6 South America Teams. More skill, but less fun to watch for sure. I opted for a more intensive region lock but im fine with blizzards decision. Huge flaw in your logic. How can Blizzcon be the event where the best of the best meet when 2 of the major feeder tournaments have a regional lock, even one as soft as this is? By definition, the players who get to Blizzcon from WCS EU and AM aren't the best of the best.
Even without region-lock, BlizzCon wouldn't have the best players. Firstly, GSL will always be the strongest tournament. Most players who transitioned away from WCS KR, were the ones who were not doing particularly well (with the exception of TaeJa). As a result of this, they attained more points than other, more skilled players who stayed in Korea.
Secondly, many points go to Koreans on foreigner teams, as they have a larger travel budget than most Korean teams, and thus could send their players to as many events as possible. Players like Dear and Trap did not have that luxury, despite being better than Koreans on foreign teams.
In reality, if you really want the best players competing in the best tournament there is, it's more likely with region-lock, that way you'd see Jaedong, MMA, TaeJa, Ryung etc all back in the GSL, and it would truly be the elite tournament with all the best players, either that or something like the Hot6ix Cup - the cup at the end of the year with all GSL winners and runners up. (obviously, the problem then would be not enough prize-money, but then again, that is a problem with SC2 not being a problem in Korea, not really Blizzard's fault or problem.)
|
On November 22 2013 05:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
One last issue to consider: there are many, many viewers who love foreigners because they are far more relatable than some faceless Korean with a name you'll never memorize, a personality the same as all the other Koreans, born in the same place as all the other Koreans and living in the same place and conditions than all the other Koreans. Distinguishing facts are actually actively hidden by most Koreans, it's practically in their culture to be a perfectly homogeneous band of foreigner-killers.
While you may enjoy watching the best players in the world, most people want to be able to relate to players. You enjoy watching tournaments (once the initial awe at the skill-level runs out) because you are emotionally invested in the matches, and the number one way that happens is by giving a shit about the players. Relatable players make this a thousand times easier. Also, most viewers are too bad at the game to differentiate between foreigners and Koreans unless they face each other directly. Foreigner vs. foreigner matches seem just as skillful to the average viewer as Korean vs. Korean matches. Sometimes they're even more exciting, because players have far more options since their opponents don't have the surgeon's skill necessary to dismantle all but the most optimized playstyles and build orders.
And this why it is hard to take e-sports seriously. It's more a popularity contest than an actual sport. The competition itself is a farce. Dig more into the stories behind such names as Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods. They're pretty much assholes in real life. Their persona in the basketball court and on the golf course is Innovation-like in its robotic, singular desire to beat everybody. Their backgrounds are different from the backgrounds of the vast majority of Americans. We relate to them because they are winners, not because they have anything in common with any of us. Put their personality on to someone else who isn't a winner and most people wouldn't want to hang out with them. In fact, the vast majority would avoid them.
In fact, this relatable because of skin color, nationality, personality, etc. thing is mostly an SC2 thing, something that mainstream sports have most abandoned. In the mainstream sports I watch, people will relate to and defend the actions of fucking horrible criminal thugs as long as their team is winning. Put a bunch of nice guys from nice, suburban middle class backgrounds who aren't very good and the stadiums will be empty. I guess in SC2, we are all expected to be Cubs fans.
|
Assuming constant skill and doing some averaging I think alguilac in conjunction with some iterative scripting could figure out the mean long term implications. It would be interesting if not a bit impossible to get right.
I hope this helps folks like Scarlett and Suppy but it remains to be seen...
|
On November 22 2013 08:00 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 05:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
One last issue to consider: there are many, many viewers who love foreigners because they are far more relatable than some faceless Korean with a name you'll never memorize, a personality the same as all the other Koreans, born in the same place as all the other Koreans and living in the same place and conditions than all the other Koreans. Distinguishing facts are actually actively hidden by most Koreans, it's practically in their culture to be a perfectly homogeneous band of foreigner-killers.
While you may enjoy watching the best players in the world, most people want to be able to relate to players. You enjoy watching tournaments (once the initial awe at the skill-level runs out) because you are emotionally invested in the matches, and the number one way that happens is by giving a shit about the players. Relatable players make this a thousand times easier. Also, most viewers are too bad at the game to differentiate between foreigners and Koreans unless they face each other directly. Foreigner vs. foreigner matches seem just as skillful to the average viewer as Korean vs. Korean matches. Sometimes they're even more exciting, because players have far more options since their opponents don't have the surgeon's skill necessary to dismantle all but the most optimized playstyles and build orders. And this why it is hard to take e-sports seriously. It's more a popularity contest than an actual sport. The competition itself is a farce. Dig more into the stories behind such names as Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods. They're pretty much assholes in real life. Their persona in the basketball court and on the golf course is Innovation-like in its robotic, singular desire to beat everybody. Their backgrounds are different from the backgrounds of the vast majority of Americans. We relate to them because they are winners, not because they have anything in common with any of us. Put their personality on to someone else who isn't a winner and most people wouldn't want to hang out with them. In fact, the vast majority would avoid them. In fact, this relatable because of skin color, nationality, personality, etc. thing is mostly an SC2 thing, something that mainstream sports have most abandoned. In the mainstream sports I watch, people will relate to and defend the actions of fucking horrible criminal thugs as long as their team is winning. Put a bunch of nice guys from nice, suburban middle class backgrounds who aren't very good and the stadiums will be empty. I guess in SC2, we are all expected to be Cubs fans.
What? No, just no.
People root for their home teams. They have a connection to a place and a team, and that's why they root for them. There's even a derogatory term for fans who switch teams based on records which you've probably heard, "fair weather fan." To say winning is the only thing that matters in traditional sports is absurd.
Now, Michael Jordan is an example of the greatest ever, you can't compare him to some random Korean that won a tournament once. The only fair comparison would be with Flash. Guess who has a huge foreigner fan base despite being Korean? Flash does.
Fostering local competition can only be a good thing for SC2 and ESPORTS. It's not racist, or stupid, or any other term you want to throw at it. And it certainly doesn't contradict anything that goes on in the traditional sports world.
|
|
|
On November 22 2013 08:00 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 05:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
One last issue to consider: there are many, many viewers who love foreigners because they are far more relatable than some faceless Korean with a name you'll never memorize, a personality the same as all the other Koreans, born in the same place as all the other Koreans and living in the same place and conditions than all the other Koreans. Distinguishing facts are actually actively hidden by most Koreans, it's practically in their culture to be a perfectly homogeneous band of foreigner-killers.
While you may enjoy watching the best players in the world, most people want to be able to relate to players. You enjoy watching tournaments (once the initial awe at the skill-level runs out) because you are emotionally invested in the matches, and the number one way that happens is by giving a shit about the players. Relatable players make this a thousand times easier. Also, most viewers are too bad at the game to differentiate between foreigners and Koreans unless they face each other directly. Foreigner vs. foreigner matches seem just as skillful to the average viewer as Korean vs. Korean matches. Sometimes they're even more exciting, because players have far more options since their opponents don't have the surgeon's skill necessary to dismantle all but the most optimized playstyles and build orders. 1. And this why it is hard to take e-sports seriously. It's more a popularity contest than an actual sport. The competition itself is a farce. Dig more into the stories behind such names as Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods. They're pretty much assholes in real life. Their persona in the basketball court and on the golf course is Innovation-like in its robotic, singular desire to beat everybody. Their backgrounds are different from the backgrounds of the vast majority of Americans. We relate to them because they are winners, not because they have anything in common with any of us. Put their personality on to someone else who isn't a winner and most people wouldn't want to hang out with them. In fact, the vast majority would avoid them. 2. In fact, this relatable because of skin color, nationality, personality, etc. thing is mostly an SC2 thing, something that mainstream sports have most abandoned. In the mainstream sports I watch, people will relate to and defend the actions of fucking horrible criminal thugs as long as their team is winning. Put a bunch of nice guys from nice, suburban middle class backgrounds who aren't very good and the stadiums will be empty. I guess in SC2, we are all expected to be Cubs fans.
1. Uhh, no. Winning is still important. We love our champions. Hell, being skilled can actually turn your lack of relatability into a benefit for your image. Just take a gander at Flash or Innovation. Besides, there's almost no way to earn people's attention aside from winning. Pretty much nobody in SC2 became popular by having a stream that slowly accrued more and more followers.
2. Once again, no. Nearly every single sports fan that I know has a couple teams that they really, REALLY love and are invested in. Usually this happens to be a team that is relatable or relevant to the person in some way. The most passionate sports fans I know are invariably fans of their university's basketball and football teams, or something similar.
|
On November 22 2013 07:19 purgerinho wrote:
probably is my english but i don't understand that table, what is it for? slots etc.
i mean, table says: "In 2014, we will reserve most qualifier slots for citizens and legal residents of the home regions for both WCS America and WCS Europe."
and in article it is said that there is a chance 22 koreans will make it to premier...
can someone explain those numbers in table?
The reason there can be 22 Koreans in AM Premier is there are
* 7 who were top 8 last season (so they auto-qualify for season 1)
*12 who were in the top 24 of season 3 challenger (they have to win a bo5 against one of the new qualifiers)
*3 new Koreans who can qualify and play a bo5 against a challenger league player to get into premier (challenger is 48 people season 1 so they can fill up the premier league)
So if all the Koreans win and dodge each other, there could be 22 in AM premier.
Similarly, in EU there are 5 from top 8 season 3, 4 currently in season 1 challenger, and up to 6 could qualify (just for season 1) I believe, so there could be 15 in EU.
|
On November 22 2013 04:58 ctbower5 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 04:57 ctbower5 wrote:
The prize pools have to change - especially if you're bringing in more NA foreigners. There's no way you can justify paying out the current money to a NA player not named Scarlett [or I guess Polt if we're going by Blizzard's definition]. Korea needs to be bigger - NA smaller - EU is probably fine where it is. I don't think enough people are acknowledging the viewership issues that may come with less Koreans in the bracket. Sure the TL crowd wants to cheer for the locals - but the casual fan is just going to see a crappy performance and move on. There's no way NA can compete with the talent coming out of EU
Much less ever hope to make a dent running up against Korea.
Everything has shown that the quality of the game is not as important as who is playing in it. Personality sells and local personality could sell all the more but it will take some time to build.
|
1019 Posts
On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A/B level Koreans owning the NA region via online and knocking all the regular and up and coming foreigners out for easy money and points.
But after WCS 2013 and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents a platter of information to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... and hey, you guessed it, MORE PRACTICE! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results. Retire, get a job, or go to school.
However, after reading the post by Blizzard. I expect 2014 to be a much better year for WCS. They gained a lot of knowledge and experience from 2013.
I don't want to criticize others harshly but this is what I feel too. The Koreans spend 10 hours a day grinding in teamhouses, developing builds and studying game maps. If western players are unwilling to do the same, the gap level will always exist, no matter how much you try to game the system to try to make western players look better than they actually are.
People here mention how koreans have better practice environments and game traditions that comes down from BW but those are just lame excuses. Personal effort >>>>>>>>>>>> environment
|
As a foreigner spectator I just want to say that I support no region locking. I dont care about anything like country of origin, or a foreigner with a 'personality' - I only want to view the best games of sc2. Thanks! xD
|
On November 22 2013 13:06 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A/B level Koreans owning the NA region via online and knocking all the regular and up and coming foreigners out for easy money and points.
But after WCS 2013 and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents a platter of information to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... and hey, you guessed it, MORE PRACTICE! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results. Retire, get a job, or go to school.
However, after reading the post by Blizzard. I expect 2014 to be a much better year for WCS. They gained a lot of knowledge and experience from 2013. I don't want to criticize others harshly but this is what I feel too. The Koreans spend 10 hours a day grinding in teamhouses, developing builds and studying game maps. If western players are unwilling to do the same, the gap level will always exist, no matter how much you try to game the system to try to make western players look better than they actually are. People here mention how koreans have better practice environments and game traditions that comes down from BW but those are just lame excuses. Personal effort >>>>>>>>>>>> environment
Environment has a much much much bigger role in Sc2 training than you give it credit for. In a team house your practice is always going to be more constructive and productive than outside of a team house, regardless of motivation.
|
On November 22 2013 13:06 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A/B level Koreans owning the NA region via online and knocking all the regular and up and coming foreigners out for easy money and points.
But after WCS 2013 and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents a platter of information to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... and hey, you guessed it, MORE PRACTICE! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results. Retire, get a job, or go to school.
However, after reading the post by Blizzard. I expect 2014 to be a much better year for WCS. They gained a lot of knowledge and experience from 2013. I don't want to criticize others harshly but this is what I feel too. The Koreans spend 10 hours a day grinding in teamhouses, developing builds and studying game maps. If western players are unwilling to do the same, the gap level will always exist, no matter how much you try to game the system to try to make western players look better than they actually are. People here mention how koreans have better practice environments and game traditions that comes down from BW but those are just lame excuses. Personal effort >>>>>>>>>>>> environment
Firstly, environment is extremely important, including the players' skill on the ladder (Korean ladder is vastly superior), their practice partners within the team house and outside, coaches etc. Those MATTER A LOT.
Secondly, the vast majority of Korean players do not spend 10 hours a day gaming. It has been stated in interviews that some Koreans do exaggerate, and the 10 hours would include the start of their practice schedule, to the end of the practice schedule, including breaks, watching TV series, movies etc. Most eSF houses do not have the discipline of KeSPA houses, which is also why KeSPA players caught up so quickly and are now the best.
|
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
If having a team house, a coach, and a dedicated practice environment were so important, then if it is financially viable to do so or if there is enough desire for it, then a group of dedicated pros should make one. Continuously being the whipping boys of Koreans can't possibly be very lucrative, and if you really think you can compete with them given a better practice environment, then frickin make one. If you can identify a solution and believe that it can change things then why not follow through with it?
Ladder difficulty is harder to emulate though. Hopefully Blizz implement stricter ladder requirements for WCS.
Also Kespa didn't 'catch up quickly' lololol and anyway Kespa and Esf hardly mean anything now
|
|
|
this change is absolutely useless... the end result would still be the same...
|
On November 22 2013 16:05 lichter wrote:
If having a team house, a coach, and a dedicated practice environment were so important, then if it is financially viable to do so or if there is enough desire for it, then a group of dedicated pros should make one. Continuously being the whipping boys of Koreans can't possibly be very lucrative, and if you really think you can compete with them given a better practice environment, then frickin make one. If you can identify a solution and believe that it can change things then why not follow through with it?
Ladder difficulty is harder to emulate though. Hopefully Blizz implement stricter ladder requirements for WCS.
Also Kespa didn't 'catch up quickly' lololol and anyway Kespa and Esf hardly mean anything now
Agree. Out of the western teams like EG/ROOT they have team houses, but they seem not to use them very efficiently or at all compared to the Koreans. The same old excuses foreigners give on why there skill level is low is getting old.
EG players don't even stream as much and with the new set up in California I expect them to be way more competitive and on tier with some of the Koreans in WCS America in 2014, not many excuses left for them IMO.
Just like Polt said, effort goes along way.
|
Canada16217 Posts
On November 22 2013 17:33 LingBlingBling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 16:05 lichter wrote:
If having a team house, a coach, and a dedicated practice environment were so important, then if it is financially viable to do so or if there is enough desire for it, then a group of dedicated pros should make one. Continuously being the whipping boys of Koreans can't possibly be very lucrative, and if you really think you can compete with them given a better practice environment, then frickin make one. If you can identify a solution and believe that it can change things then why not follow through with it?
Ladder difficulty is harder to emulate though. Hopefully Blizz implement stricter ladder requirements for WCS.
Also Kespa didn't 'catch up quickly' lololol and anyway Kespa and Esf hardly mean anything now Agree. Out of the western teams like EG/ROOT they have team houses, but they seem not to use them very efficiently or at all compared to the Koreans. The same old excuses foreigners give on why there skill level is low is getting old. EG players don't even stream as much and with the new set up in California I expect them to be way more competitive and on tier with some of the Koreans in WCS America in 2014, not many excuses left for them IMO. Just like Polt said, effort goes along way.
eg players don't stream that much because they've been getting ddosed for the past who knows how long
|
On November 22 2013 17:36 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 17:33 LingBlingBling wrote:On November 22 2013 16:05 lichter wrote:
If having a team house, a coach, and a dedicated practice environment were so important, then if it is financially viable to do so or if there is enough desire for it, then a group of dedicated pros should make one. Continuously being the whipping boys of Koreans can't possibly be very lucrative, and if you really think you can compete with them given a better practice environment, then frickin make one. If you can identify a solution and believe that it can change things then why not follow through with it?
Ladder difficulty is harder to emulate though. Hopefully Blizz implement stricter ladder requirements for WCS.
Also Kespa didn't 'catch up quickly' lololol and anyway Kespa and Esf hardly mean anything now Agree. Out of the western teams like EG/ROOT they have team houses, but they seem not to use them very efficiently or at all compared to the Koreans. The same old excuses foreigners give on why there skill level is low is getting old. EG players don't even stream as much and with the new set up in California I expect them to be way more competitive and on tier with some of the Koreans in WCS America in 2014, not many excuses left for them IMO. Just like Polt said, effort goes along way. eg players don't stream that much because they've been getting ddosed for the past who knows how long
These misunderstood people only want to make sure that DeMuslim doesn't give away his builds and is able to make it into WCS...
|
Why are americans so bad at starcraft? Are they just lazy and dont practise that hard? Didn have the sme problem in EU. This fix is just silly to me. Hey, americans are not that good at starcraft but instead of telling them to practise more and become better, lets just give them free spots into the wcs even tho there are players that are better then them. *roll eyes*
I can agree that only having koreans in WCS america is silly/ not so fun, but the question is why are americans so bad compared to koreans?
|
On November 22 2013 16:05 lichter wrote:
If having a team house, a coach, and a dedicated practice environment were so important, then if it is financially viable to do so or if there is enough desire for it, then a group of dedicated pros should make one. Continuously being the whipping boys of Koreans can't possibly be very lucrative, and if you really think you can compete with them given a better practice environment, then frickin make one. If you can identify a solution and believe that it can change things then why not follow through with it?
Ladder difficulty is harder to emulate though. Hopefully Blizz implement stricter ladder requirements for WCS.
Also Kespa didn't 'catch up quickly' lololol and anyway Kespa and Esf hardly mean anything now
That is what I also think, instead players of complaining about the Korean teams with their superior practice environment (which is true), one should complain about non-Korean teams with their inferior practice environment. You can't tell me that something like that isn't possible outside of Korea, there are a lot of western teams who are financially a lot more stable than Korean teams.
|
On November 22 2013 20:20 spirates wrote:
Why are americans so bad at starcraft? Are they just lazy and dont practise that hard? Didn have the sme problem in EU
If you look at a map of the world it'll make more sense. Aside from outliers like Naniwa/Stephano europe also struggles when koreans play there. When you've had champs like duckdeok and stardust you can't really talk.
|
On November 22 2013 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 20:20 spirates wrote:
Why are americans so bad at starcraft? Are they just lazy and dont practise that hard? Didn have the sme problem in EU If you look at a map of the world it'll make more sense. Aside from outliers like Naniwa/Stephano europe also struggles when koreans play there. When you've had champs like duckdeok and stardust you can't really talk.
It might be, that the skillgap between EU and KR isnt much smaller than the gap between US an KR, but there are far more Players in EU, who are at a high (for EU) skill level. So, much more Players in EU would be able do get a win from a good korean Player from time to time.
|
On November 22 2013 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 20:20 spirates wrote:
Why are americans so bad at starcraft? Are they just lazy and dont practise that hard? Didn have the sme problem in EU If you look at a map of the world it'll make more sense. Aside from outliers like Naniwa/Stephano europe also struggles when koreans play there. When you've had champs like duckdeok and stardust you can't really talk.
duckdeok 0:2 Dimaga
duckdeok 2:1 Dayshi
duckdeok 2:1 Dimaga
duckdeok 2:0 Stephano
duckdeok 1:2 Welmu
duckdeok 2:1 LucifroN
duckdeok 3:1 Naniwa
duckdeok 3:2 Grubby
Total = duckdeok 15:10 Europe
Call me the day Polt drops 10 maps to AM players.
Also Stardust didn't win WCS Europe.
|
On November 22 2013 16:05 lichter wrote:
If having a team house, a coach, and a dedicated practice environment were so important, then if it is financially viable to do so or if there is enough desire for it, then a group of dedicated pros should make one. Continuously being the whipping boys of Koreans can't possibly be very lucrative, and if you really think you can compete with them given a better practice environment, then frickin make one. If you can identify a solution and believe that it can change things then why not follow through with it?
Ladder difficulty is harder to emulate though. Hopefully Blizz implement stricter ladder requirements for WCS.
Also Kespa didn't 'catch up quickly' lololol and anyway Kespa and Esf hardly mean anything now
Foreigner setting up a team house and working with a dedicated coach?
Yea right, there are not even actual coaches and no matter how many times we see the difference between one and not having one, EGTL being the prime example, they just refuse.
|
On November 22 2013 20:59 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:On November 22 2013 20:20 spirates wrote:
Why are americans so bad at starcraft? Are they just lazy and dont practise that hard? Didn have the sme problem in EU If you look at a map of the world it'll make more sense. Aside from outliers like Naniwa/Stephano europe also struggles when koreans play there. When you've had champs like duckdeok and stardust you can't really talk. duckdeok 0:2 Dimaga duckdeok 2:1 Dayshi duckdeok 2:1 Dimaga duckdeok 2:0 Stephano duckdeok 1:2 Welmu duckdeok 2:1 LucifroN duckdeok 3:1 Naniwa duckdeok 3:2 Grubby Total = duckdeok 15:10 Europe Call me the day Polt drops 10 maps to AM players.
Comparing duckdeok to polt is hilarious. Polt won consecutive WCS America's ahead of guys like Taeja, JD and Hero. The 10 games dropped is far more a reflection on duckdeok's mediocrity than on EU skill.
|
On November 22 2013 13:30 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 13:06 white_horse wrote:On November 22 2013 02:28 Incubus1993 wrote:
For quite a while until recently I was angry at the sheer amount of Code A/B level Koreans owning the NA region via online and knocking all the regular and up and coming foreigners out for easy money and points.
But after WCS 2013 and looking at the results. I have 0 sympathy for foreigners. Them or their fans shouldn't expect to be given any advantages, direct or indirect. If they aren't getting results, too freaking bad. The money and finishes should go to the best players, buckle the fuck down and practice more if you want to win. Stop streaming all the time and giving your opponents a platter of information to study if you want to seriously compete. Despite what some morons say, the overwhelming majority of skill doesn't come from them "being Asian/Korean". It comes from hard work, dedication, and practice..... practice..... and hey, you guessed it, MORE PRACTICE! If they don't commit hard to the game then they won't get results. Retire, get a job, or go to school.
However, after reading the post by Blizzard. I expect 2014 to be a much better year for WCS. They gained a lot of knowledge and experience from 2013. I don't want to criticize others harshly but this is what I feel too. The Koreans spend 10 hours a day grinding in teamhouses, developing builds and studying game maps. If western players are unwilling to do the same, the gap level will always exist, no matter how much you try to game the system to try to make western players look better than they actually are. People here mention how koreans have better practice environments and game traditions that comes down from BW but those are just lame excuses. Personal effort >>>>>>>>>>>> environment Environment has a much much much bigger role in Sc2 training than you give it credit for. In a team house your practice is always going to be more constructive and productive than outside of a team house, regardless of motivation.
Which Korean teamhouse is in U of T? Is there where Polt is training? Foreigners just need to stop making fucking excuses.
Would it be better in a Korean training house? Sure. Is it impossible to make it if you are in NA? Nope.
Should the NBA have Asian qualifiers and African qualifiers because US is the best area to get top basketball competition?
If you can't beat Koreans with lag, just go practice and stop whining!
|
More Koreans is a fucking good thing! It means better games. This partial region lock is the perfect solution IMO. We still get top, quality Koreans but it is much easier for natives to the region to make it in thief respective leagues.
|
On November 22 2013 23:45 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 20:59 TheDwf wrote:On November 22 2013 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:On November 22 2013 20:20 spirates wrote:
Why are americans so bad at starcraft? Are they just lazy and dont practise that hard? Didn have the sme problem in EU If you look at a map of the world it'll make more sense. Aside from outliers like Naniwa/Stephano europe also struggles when koreans play there. When you've had champs like duckdeok and stardust you can't really talk. duckdeok 0:2 Dimaga duckdeok 2:1 Dayshi duckdeok 2:1 Dimaga duckdeok 2:0 Stephano duckdeok 1:2 Welmu duckdeok 2:1 LucifroN duckdeok 3:1 Naniwa duckdeok 3:2 Grubby Total = duckdeok 15:10 Europe Call me the day Polt drops 10 maps to AM players. Comparing duckdeok to polt is hilarious. Polt won consecutive WCS America's ahead of guys like Taeja, JD and Hero. The 10 games dropped is far more a reflection on duckdeok's mediocrity than on EU skill.
Yet he managed to beat INnoVation and take Maru to 5 maps. Hurrr durr, mediocrity. Do not need to like his style, but he's good with his timings and allins. Also his pvz and pvp are solid
|
Really there just needs to be an Americas only tournament that isn't a part of the WCS system. It's unfair to Koreans (and Chinese / SEA players ect) to limit WCS AM to players from the Americas only and give WCS spots to much worse AM players, and you can't expect a large number of AM players to drop everything else to devote to training to catch up to Koreans when there's no real chance of them doing well or getting anything out of it.
And I say a large number because only two or three isn't enough. You need a multitude of practice partners growing at the same or a similar rate to you with varying playstyles ect in order to really improve.
|
@vthree: there are many examples of massive sporting events where regional restricted qualifiers are held. Like, oh, the World Cup. Given the NBA is an American league, it's fine for them to be 'over-represented' by Americans.
Using Polt as an example for any of this is kind of silly. The dude doesn't practice as much as other Koreans, and doesn't win games the same way (he quite often plays from behind due to mechanical and early game issues and then just stomps in late game engagements).
Honestly, this is probably fine. Consider S1 & S2 a transition period to a more regionally proportionate system with some flexibility to allow for import/export of talent. As has been stated multiple times, what're they supposed to do, kick out all the Koreans that earned placements to compete for $-paying spots and exposure? You could argue that even opens them up to litigation.
|
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaahh.... *SLUMP* x_x
There went the WCS America skill level.
|
I'm so tired of people saying that there are no pros in NA/EU that are putting forth the necessary effort. I'd love a couple foreigner pros to let us know their schedules so we don't have to hear this anymore.
But then it would just be "well they aren't practicing right!" I guess it would just be an endless cycle of nonsense. I see why foreigners keep retiring. Fuckit take away all WCS shit, I'd be happy just having foreigner only tournaments to watch from now on.
So goddamned draining having this same argument over and over again and so much of it is just over terminology. Such crazy, heated argumentation, such rampant mud slinging. It really sucks.
|
On November 23 2013 02:50 Noobity wrote:
I'm so tired of people saying that there are no pros in NA/EU that are putting forth the necessary effort. I'd love a couple foreigner pros to let us know their schedules so we don't have to hear this anymore.
But then it would just be "well they aren't practicing right!" I guess it would just be an endless cycle of nonsense. I see why foreigners keep retiring. Fuckit take away all WCS shit, I'd be happy just having foreigner only tournaments to watch from now on.
So goddamned draining having this same argument over and over again and so much of it is just over terminology. Such crazy, heated argumentation, such rampant mud slinging. It really sucks.
How many foreign teams have a dedicated coach? That alone can make a huge difference like we seen with EGTL yet for some reason we never seen even 1. Foreigners training wrong, and only a couple people can do without that training like we seen with Polt/Taeja/Naniwa/Scarlet. And even then you don't know how much they would benefit from it.
|
I was very frustrated last season at how the sc2 scene suffered because of WCS, but at this point it hardly matters even if they did do some substantial changes.
Looking at the the recent tournament results, it's just not even close anymore... At all. The winrates of bloody any competing Korea vs the top foreigner is getting ridiculous. It feels like a low master or even diamond player has a greater chance at beating a high GM player than a non-Korean has at beating a Korean these days. Just looking at the recent HSC! There were around two koreans who got eliminated by foreigners in a tournament! It was absolutely ridiculous and not even close. Even the WCS final was just Naniwa going out in the first round as the only non-Korean! And this is despite the fact that we still have WCS EU were there are actually very few Koreans in which they could have gotten some points! What is even the point of trying to help the non-Koreans anymore. I simply can't see this status being changed regardless of any system. At this point, if you don't like watching when there is nothing but Koreans and maybe some non-Koreans commentating, then I don't think SC2 is gonna be much fun to follow for you.
And it still blows my mind. You'd think just by the sheer number of the non-Korean player base vs the Korean that you'd have some talented folks rising up to compete with the very best just by sheer chance alone! But somehow that doesn't even happen! This truly shows the effect of hard and dedicated practice and the difference between the cultures! You can safely assume that there is fundamentally more talented foreign players as there are way more players, but that just doesn't matter in this game in the face of hardcore practice. I'm sure there are a few non-Koreans who practice very hardcore as well, but I guess I'm gonna have to assume that when comparing the number of players practicing hardcore, then the non koreans suddenly become the clear minority, and this gives rise to more of the talented Korean player base.
In some way it's not actually that surprising when I look around me in my classes and see the incredibly average work attitude, myself included. It's everywhere ! Even at high level university studies! Most of the time I just don't understand how I ended up where I did with such a lazy performance from myself, but I guess that's more than enough in this culture. Being successful in your studies at this point basically only requires the minimum effort of actually reading what you are supposed to, and suddenly you are way ahead of your class :|
Watching documentaries on their work ethics is so inspiring. I mean, I guess it could be fun watching a tournament without the Koreans in the same way that supporting your local non-professional sport team can make for a decent sunday afternoon of entertainment
|
Meh. I don't like it. I'm for a full region lock and giving more seeds to Koreans when the seasonal and global finals come around. Give them more prize money too.
|
loving it, even if there are alot koreans, each season therer will be 1-2 less ... its nice its rly rly nice
and if there come always koreans trough ladder, it just means a STRONG ladder ... its perfect for me
|
On November 21 2013 16:42 b0rt_ wrote:
I don't get what the problem is. If Koreans are better then let them play unrestricted, this is how competition markets works.
the problem is the viewership interest and future
if only koreans qualifier less foreigns will be pro or even try to be so less players
overall the koreans are not that attractive to alot of foreign fans, so you have less viewers and less people actually caring for wcs and sc2 in generall
its like making a high european soccer league, and having 18 teams with 11 rnd brasilian players, then mention it stays this way so new talents not even try to be a soccer player and soon only brasilians play soccer, then having a world cup wondering why there is only shit in the rest of the world left ... the viewership would drop dramaticy
the problem is NEVER the skill, the problem is the attractivity, and skill is just a part of it
|
Looking at the the recent tournament results, it's just not even close anymore... At all. The winrates of bloody any competing Korea vs the top foreigner is getting ridiculous. It feels like a low master or even diamond player has a greater chance at beating a high GM player than a non-Korean has at beating a Korean these days. Just looking at the recent HSC! There were around two koreans who got eliminated by foreigners in a tournament! It was absolutely ridiculous and not even close. Even the WCS final was just Naniwa going out in the first round as the only non-Korean! And this is despite the fact that we still have WCS EU were there are actually very few Koreans in which they could have gotten some points! What is even the point of trying to help the non-Koreans anymore. I simply can't see this status being changed regardless of any system. At this point, if you don't like watching when there is nothing but Koreans and maybe some non-Koreans commentating, then I don't think SC2 is gonna be much fun to follow for you.
Yea, the fact naniwa had to vs Soulkey, the #1 seed who took nearly all his points from top finishes in the argueably hardest tournament of wcs KR and one of the best zergs in the world, also being one of the most consistant players as well had nothing to do with it. Ofc he lost just because soulkey was a korean and it had nothing to do with the fact soulkey had put far more effort into sc2 through out the whole year.
|
Doesnt matter how many bones blizzard throws to foreigners nothing will change.
I've been anti-region lock forever and nothing will change that. I only care for the best games, step up or get out is my advice to non-koreans.
Id LOVE to see an aussie become a top contender in a final, but only if they earn it by their own merit and not spoon fed a seeding by tournaments.
|
On November 22 2013 05:24 fronkschnonk wrote:"Sometimes, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette"Sorry, but that's such a nonsense. These aren't foods, these are humans. Humans, who dedicated their lives to esports and risked a lot playing in US. To kick them out of WCS AM would kick quite some of them instant out of esports, standing there with empty hands, not prepared for alternatives in their lives. Blizzard did the only right thing - they're taking responsibility for what they had caused. It could have been better from the beginning, but one can't act like the things, that happened, didn't happen. I have to say, I'm seriously appalled to read such a thing here on TL from you, Waxangel
I have to agree. Not to mention you have to take into account that last year, they reduced GSL from 5 a year to 3, OSL from 2 to 1 (one of the OSL in 2012 was BW but it was still an SC tournament). (Not to mention the reduced prize pool overall.)
One of the reasons Koreans played outside of the GSL is because of those two things (less tournaments and less prize pool).
I like their decisions with 2014 because it sort of makes up for 2013 (reduced prize pool and tournament count).
|
Since the arrival of Dota 2, i stopped caring a lot for SC2. Let it just be all-Koreans, and "foreighers" can have other esports.
I`m still looking at Dota 2, where there is very strong China, very strong EU, and US have 2 top-tier teams, and neither scene managed to destroy one-other and become the Korea of Dota 2 as a case of properly developed local scenes and proper inernational competition. Probably something to learn for Blizzard when they will make SC3.
So let foreign SC2 die already. The glorious future requiers sacrifices, and SC2
(droping foreighn players->falling foreighn vievship due to only koreans->less prise money for koreans overall->less incentive for koreans to play->death of the scene->death of SC2)
should become one, for better or worse.
|
On November 24 2013 12:01 naastyOne wrote:
Since the arrival of Dota 2, i stopped caring a lot for SC2. Let it just be all-Koreans, and "foreighers" can have other esports.
I`m still looking at Dota 2, where there is very strong China, very strong EU, and US have 2 top-tier teams, and neither scene managed to destroy one-other and become the Korea of Dota 2 as a case of properly developed local scenes and proper inernational competition. Probably something to learn for Blizzard when they will make SC3.
So let foreign SC2 die already. The glorious future requiers sacrifices, and SC2
(droping foreighn players->falling foreighn vievship due to only koreans->less prise money for koreans overall->less incentive for koreans to play->death of the scene->death of SC2)
should become one, for better or worse.
Lets make a game that koreans don't like so they don't get too good and destroy our scenes!
I'd like to see what happens to League in a year or 2 when koreans are just destroying everyone. It has already started, looking at LCS finals.
|
There are two brutal truths that people do not realize,
-If you had live Code S in a prime time slot for the NA market and you had a equivalent Code S for NA players only happening at the same time, no one would watch the NA players.
-North Americans have had 2.5 years to improve and catch up to the Koreans (MMA first won MLG Columbus 2011). 2 and a half years! At some point, the excuses have to stop and there has to be accountability. You would think someone would say "we are going to catch up now", but for whatever reason it hasn't happened.
|
The WCS is a World Championship. It's in the title. What's the point of having all three tourneys lead into Blizzcon if we know in advance which half of the ro16 is getting annihilated? If there aren't enough local tournaments to foster NA talent or whatever, that's a completely separate problem. It's not the job of the WCS to be the band-aid solution to every single SC2 esport problem.
This isn't the Olympics where every player represents his nation. Players in premier tournaments represent themselves. Maybe their teams. Not their countries. I'm all for growing the scene, but not at the cost of game quality.
|
On November 23 2013 03:05 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 02:50 Noobity wrote:
I'm so tired of people saying that there are no pros in NA/EU that are putting forth the necessary effort. I'd love a couple foreigner pros to let us know their schedules so we don't have to hear this anymore.
But then it would just be "well they aren't practicing right!" I guess it would just be an endless cycle of nonsense. I see why foreigners keep retiring. Fuckit take away all WCS shit, I'd be happy just having foreigner only tournaments to watch from now on.
So goddamned draining having this same argument over and over again and so much of it is just over terminology. Such crazy, heated argumentation, such rampant mud slinging. It really sucks. How many foreign teams have a dedicated coach? That alone can make a huge difference like we seen with EGTL yet for some reason we never seen even 1. Foreigners training wrong, and only a couple people can do without that training like we seen with Polt/Taeja/Naniwa/Scarlet. And even then you don't know how much they would benefit from it.
Coach Park was for the Koreans on EGTL too, not the foreigner players.
|
Well of course it's going to look generally the same as before the very first season the new rules are implemented, especially with the carry over from Premiere league last season. But what they are aiming for is in the future, the big picture, that with more oportunities, and the high level of competition, the WCS America foreigner's will be motivated to practice more, and play more tournaments in order to improve. And hopefully we will get many more rising NA folks challenging the Koreans for the coveted Premiere league spots. While wax addresses the situation in the immediate future (next season) he fails to recognize the potential for the seasons more down the road, and doesn't acknowledge the big picture of these new rules whatsoever. So really, he's not really telling us anything we didn't know already. But it is a step in the right direction, and we will see if the NA scene is up to the challenge. And with the increased prize pool and everything in Korea, who's to say that the top Korean players what want to go back to Korea for a chance at that prestige and $$? I think there is a good possibility we start to see that happen.
|
On November 23 2013 03:05 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 02:50 Noobity wrote:
I'm so tired of people saying that there are no pros in NA/EU that are putting forth the necessary effort. I'd love a couple foreigner pros to let us know their schedules so we don't have to hear this anymore.
But then it would just be "well they aren't practicing right!" I guess it would just be an endless cycle of nonsense. I see why foreigners keep retiring. Fuckit take away all WCS shit, I'd be happy just having foreigner only tournaments to watch from now on.
So goddamned draining having this same argument over and over again and so much of it is just over terminology. Such crazy, heated argumentation, such rampant mud slinging. It really sucks. How many foreign teams have a dedicated coach? That alone can make a huge difference like we seen with EGTL yet for some reason we never seen even 1. Foreigners training wrong, and only a couple people can do without that training like we seen with Polt/Taeja/Naniwa/Scarlet. And even then you don't know how much they would benefit from it.
So then you admit that Koreans have an advantage that foreigners don't have access to?
If foreigners have to rely on being lucky enough to have and recognize their pure talent for something in order to get good enough to be cared about then that seems pretty xenophobic to me. Unless you propose to set up infrastructure around the foreigner countries to give them the same tools Koreans have, then you are simply continuing to kick foreigners while they're down. Once that infrastructure is in place, then I will 100% agree with you when you say that foreigners are not putting in the same effort.
|
The idea of the system is to water down the korean presence over the time. So i like it. And lets just see how it all works out before we criticize everything.
|
On November 24 2013 14:28 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 03:05 Assirra wrote:On November 23 2013 02:50 Noobity wrote:
I'm so tired of people saying that there are no pros in NA/EU that are putting forth the necessary effort. I'd love a couple foreigner pros to let us know their schedules so we don't have to hear this anymore.
But then it would just be "well they aren't practicing right!" I guess it would just be an endless cycle of nonsense. I see why foreigners keep retiring. Fuckit take away all WCS shit, I'd be happy just having foreigner only tournaments to watch from now on.
So goddamned draining having this same argument over and over again and so much of it is just over terminology. Such crazy, heated argumentation, such rampant mud slinging. It really sucks. How many foreign teams have a dedicated coach? That alone can make a huge difference like we seen with EGTL yet for some reason we never seen even 1. Foreigners training wrong, and only a couple people can do without that training like we seen with Polt/Taeja/Naniwa/Scarlet. And even then you don't know how much they would benefit from it. So then you admit that Koreans have an advantage that foreigners don't have access to? If foreigners have to rely on being lucky enough to have and recognize their pure talent for something in order to get good enough to be cared about then that seems pretty xenophobic to me. Unless you propose to set up infrastructure around the foreigner countries to give them the same tools Koreans have, then you are simply continuing to kick foreigners while they're down. Once that infrastructure is in place, then I will 100% agree with you when you say that foreigners are not putting in the same effort.
You are aware that several foreign teams are more stable financially than a lot of the Korean teams (especially during the beginning of sc2)? So it's not really that they cannot afford to have coaches, but rather decide to not have coaches.
|
On November 24 2013 14:28 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 03:05 Assirra wrote:On November 23 2013 02:50 Noobity wrote:
I'm so tired of people saying that there are no pros in NA/EU that are putting forth the necessary effort. I'd love a couple foreigner pros to let us know their schedules so we don't have to hear this anymore.
But then it would just be "well they aren't practicing right!" I guess it would just be an endless cycle of nonsense. I see why foreigners keep retiring. Fuckit take away all WCS shit, I'd be happy just having foreigner only tournaments to watch from now on.
So goddamned draining having this same argument over and over again and so much of it is just over terminology. Such crazy, heated argumentation, such rampant mud slinging. It really sucks. How many foreign teams have a dedicated coach? That alone can make a huge difference like we seen with EGTL yet for some reason we never seen even 1. Foreigners training wrong, and only a couple people can do without that training like we seen with Polt/Taeja/Naniwa/Scarlet. And even then you don't know how much they would benefit from it. So then you admit that Koreans have an advantage that foreigners don't have access to? If foreigners have to rely on being lucky enough to have and recognize their pure talent for something in order to get good enough to be cared about then that seems pretty xenophobic to me. Unless you propose to set up infrastructure around the foreigner countries to give them the same tools Koreans have, then you are simply continuing to kick foreigners while they're down. Once that infrastructure is in place, then I will 100% agree with you when you say that foreigners are not putting in the same effort.
It seems that foreigners are simply waiting when they are given the same infrastructure as the koreans but bigger/better without wanting to do anything for it. Hint, somebody has to start with it and there will be blood, sweat and tears involved without a doubt. It wont pop up out of nowhere with everything included. The koreans worked their ass off to have that system. Just a small example here. Most foreigners when they retire will quit the pro gaming scene entirely while in Korea some will become coaches. Some players in korea also "sacrifice" their own career to become a coach (Zenio and Choya are main examples here). Unless stuff like that happens the foreign scene will never get there and it will forever be a roflstomp.
|
On November 22 2013 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 20:20 spirates wrote:
Why are americans so bad at starcraft? Are they just lazy and dont practise that hard? Didn have the sme problem in EU If you look at a map of the world it'll make more sense. Aside from outliers like Naniwa/Stephano europe also struggles when koreans play there. When you've had champs like duckdeok and stardust you can't really talk.
I did some research on aligulac to show, how wrong you are:
Europeans beating Koreans** offline in 2013
+ Show Spoiler +1xBunny |2:0 Violet
3xBabyknight |2:0 HerO|2:1 Symbol|2:1 ForGG
5xWelmu |2:0 MadBull|2:1 DongJinKim|2:1 Sia|2:0 Stardust|2:1 Duckdeok
4xelfi |2:0 Oz|2:1 Stardust|2:1 ForGG|2:1 Taeja
1xDayshi |2:1 Revenge
12xStephano |2:1 TheStC|3:1 ForGG|2:1 Golden|1:0 Trust|1:0 Billowy|1:0 Effort|1:0 Terminator|2:0 Hack|1:0 sOs|1:0 Zero|1:0 Bbyong|1:0 hero
1xToD |2:1 MC
1xHeromarine |2:1 HwangSin
1xHasuObs |2:1 MVP
2xSocke |2:0 jookTo|2:1 Yoda
12xTLO |2:0 Oz|2:1 Heart|2:1 NesTea|2:1 MC|3:1 Violet|3:2 Hyun|2:1 Life|2:1 Squirtle|2:1 ForGG|2:0 ForGG||2:0 JYP|2:1 Sting
1xXlord |2:0 JYP
4xGrubby |2:1 Daisy|2:1 MVP|2:0 Polt|2:1 Golden
6xRet |2:0 MadBull|2:1 Oz|2:0 Sage|3:1 Sting|2:0 MC|2:0 First
7xSnute |3:1 NesTea|3:2 Hyun|2:1 Seed|2:1 NesTea|2:1 Alicia|3:0 Crank|3:0 Sting
1xTarga |2:1 TheStC
8xNerchio |2:0 ForGG|1:0 Keen|1:0 Super|1:0 Dream|1:0 duckdeok|2:1 ForGG|2:0 Coca|2:0 jookTo
2xTefel |2:0 Arthur|2:1 Crank
2xMana |2:0 Zenio|2:1 Sting
1xParanoid |2:1 Golden
1xNightend |2:1 Squirtle
4xHappy |2:1 Jjakji|2:0 duckdeok|3:1 MC|3:2 San
1xLivezerg |2:0 NesTea
1xVerdi |2:0 jookTo
1xTitan |2:1 Stardust|2:0 MyuNgSiK
1xSlivko |2:1 TheStC
2xPandaTank* |2:0 Arthur|2:1 Sting
6xLucifron |2:1 YugiOh|2:1 Center|2:0 Stardust|2:0 MVP|2:1 YugiOh|2:0 Parting
2xVortix |3:1 Stardust|2:0 MC
14xNaniwa |3:0 Revival|3:2 Hyun|3:1 San|2:1 Hack|2:1 Hack|2:0 duckdeok|2:0 Innovation|2:0 MMA|2:0 Dear|2:0 Jaedong|2:0 TheStC|2:1 Jaedong|2:0 YugiOh|2:1 MC
3xSase |2:0 YugiOh|2:1 ForGG|2:1 Jaedong
3xThorzain |2:0 MC|2:1 Lucky|3:2 Creator
1xSortof |2:0 Center
2xBischu |3:2 MC|2:1 Zenio
1xSjow |2:1 Life
1xWhite-Ra |2:1 MC
4xKas |2:0 Stardust|2:1 Zenio|2:0 HerO|2:0 Golden
2xBly |2:1 Hurricane|1:0 Dream
2xStrelok |1:0 YugiOh|1:0 YugiOh
1xDimaga |2:0 Flash
These are 40 Players from Europe, who showed the ability to beat good korean Players offline - all together 127 times in 2013
Almost all of these Players (and even more Europeans) also have beaten good Koreans multiple times at online tournaments.
Americans beating Koreans offline in 2013
+ Show Spoiler +10xScarlett |2:1 Bomber|2:0 Golden|2:0 NesTea|2:0 Maru|2:0 MMA|1:0 Super|1:0 ForGG|2:0 Revival|3:0 alive|1:0 MVP
6xHuk |2:1 Heart|2:0 Stardust|2:0 Polt|1:0 Center|1:0 Fantasy|1:0 Flying
1xNony |2:1 HwangSin
1xgoswer |2:0 YugiOh
1xSuppy |2:1 Revival
1xXenocider |2:0 Junbo
Let's add the Players from SEA and China, who are considered to take part of WCS AM:
+ Show Spoiler +1xPiG |2:1 Lucky
4xMoonglade |2:1 Apocalypse|2:1 TheStC|2:0 Apocalypse|2:0 Dream
4xSen |1:0 sOs|2:0 TOP|2:1 San|1:0 Marineking
1xFly |1:0 Flash
6xJim |2:0 Lyn|3:1 alive|2:0 Alicia|2:0 Crank|2:0 MarineKing|2:1 MarineKing
1xXigua |3:0 dreamertt
4xMacSed |2:1 Lyn|2:1 Oz|2:0 Sage|2:0 Revival
2xTooDming |2:0 Billowy|2:1 Billowy
1xLoner |2:0 Sting
1xCourage |2:0 Sting
So we have 16 Players for WCS AM (6 Players from AM), who've shown the ability to beat good korean Players offline - All together 45 (20) times in 2013.
Still, you have a point in saying, that european Players are struggeling against korean Pros, but to compare in that regard the situation of Europe with the situation of AM is just ridiculous.
*PandaTank comes from South Africa but he usually plays on EU Ladder and Tournaments
**I did not count all koreans. Players like wack, revenge, Daisy, Dragon for example are playing at an average european level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
