At Blizzcon, we got a chance to talk to Jordan Womack, producer on the StarCraft 2 team, about some of the features in StarCraft 2's upcoming 2.1 patch. Here's a summary of the updates, alongside some comments from Jordan.
New Clan and Group Features
Clans/groups can upload a custom in-game logo: Much like the pro-team logos seen next to the main base in Gameheart maps, or the custom team logos used in Proleague maps, clans will be able to upload a custom icon that will be shown in game. Right now it's planned to be a floating icon in the air, near the main hatchery/command center/nexus/hatchery.
Events calendar + notifications for groups: This will make it easier to create and organize various events for clans and groups.
Possible clan competition/clan rankings coming in the future? While this something Blizzard is interested in, there's no timeline on implementation.
Womack: The community has been talking about that a lot. It's certainly something we're interested in and very excited to do. When specifically, whether it's something we get in between 2.1 and Legacy of the Void, or if it's something that happens at Legacy? We're not quite sure yet. But it's something that's very high up on our list of to do's and we're thinking about."
Of course, we had to ask about the possibility of adding other unlockable cosmetics such as unit skins. While the level cap will be raised and new portraits by Carbot will be added, the addition of additional in-game skins seems to be more problematic.
Womack: We have absolutely heard from the fans that they love the skins that we have now. That's awesome, we're really glad to hear that. So if they love it, they want more of it, and we'll see what more we can do.
We think they're super cool and love doing them, but what we're running in to is a tradeoff between our ability to support a minimum spec – literally in terms of memory – on a computer. When you're talking about a game like StarCraft where there's so many different units, and you think about something like a 4v4 match, you could have all races in the game with every player having a different set of skins applied to their army. To fit that in the memory footprint of our minimum spec machine is a major challenge.
Certainly we're always interested in looking at it and finding ways to eke a little more out of that. But we're not in a place where we're ready to say we're raising the minimum spec and be willing to cut people out if their machine doesn't have more memory. So that's really the tradeoff we're looking at there. It doesn't mean the door is closed, but it's not something where we can run off and add a ton of stuff to the game.
Extension Mods
Jordan explained extension mods through the current Gameheart maps. Right now, for each map you want to use the Gameheart features on, a specific Gameheart version of that map has to be published separately. There might be dozens of Gameheart maps published at once for each competitive map someone wants to use Gameheart on.
Now, Gameheart can be created once as an "extension mod" and published once. A player can then choose any map and choose to "extend" it with Gameheart, granting that map all the features of GameHeart. This will make it much easier and more convenient to use certain custom maps, and also consolidates search queries, popularity rating, etc. to one single mod instead of having it spread around multiple map variants of the same mod.
Some possible uses of extension mods we talked about were:
Big Game Hunters (increases amount of minerals and gas in each patch) mode. Blizzard said they'd be making the popular Brood War mass-money maps the initial demo for extension mod.
Balance test maps: Blizzard said they were looking into the possibility of using extension mods for this purpose.
Brood War total conversion mod! Jordan was rather excited when we brought this up.
Units with giant heads mode. NBA JAAAAAMMMM
Arcade is Free in the Starter Edition
The custom map Arcade will become free in starter edition. Right now, the starter edition offers a rotation of selected Arcade Maps to play. With 2.1, all custom maps will become free to play with the starter edition of StarCraft 2.
Womack: The people who are making content for arcade are highly productive, they put in a ton of investment into the stuff they do – and you see that with the games and features, there's really amazing stuff on there.
But the audience currently is other people who are playing arcade already, people who have bought StarCraft 2. That's a lot of people that play your game – the creators are doing well, but how much better could they do?
Let's say you make a game and you think it's pretty awesome. And now, with Arcade being free for the starter edition, you can go out on the internet and bring in as many people as you want, as you can talk in to play, check out this stuff for free.
It's huge for creators that way, and for people who are currently in arcade, it means more people to hang out and enjoy games with.
We asked about the possibility of future monetary incentive for map creators, related to the "Marketplace" that had been pitched during SC2's development. For now, it seems to be a no-go.
Womack: We said marketplace back in the day, before we launched Wings of Liberty. At this point we're trying to be very careful and not make promises. It's something we're interested in, people talk about it a lot internally. There's a lot of different ways to tackle it, a lot of technological challenges. Until the point we have a good answer for what's going to happen and how the features are going to be, we're not going to talk about it.
[In terms of providing incentive to map-makers] It's the same incentives people had when they made the original Dota or tower defense games. It's reach, it's having people have a great time. It's that community that you build when you reach out and make something cool, people jive to it, there's this feedback loop. When we do our featured games, we are in contact with the developer of the game, and we're on the forums talking to players. As the players and developers connect, there's a really strong synergy. You see people who have been doing well developing their game starting to get that feedback and positive reinforcement from players, and now they're doing even more. They're spending more time and energy on their games, which are becoming more awesome.
Also, the playable races in the starter edition will be expanded to all three races and not just Terran. This is not F2P multiplayer, as you can still only play custom games and vs. AI games with the starter edition. Using the match-maker with spawning is still possible, as before. All three races will remain playable for an undetermined amount of time, with Blizzard stating they were "trying it out."
However, Blizzard declined to say that it was a possible step toward completely Free-to-Play multiplayer.
Womack: Taking a big step out and completely overhauling our business model for StarCraft 2 would be something bigger than what we're talking about with 2.1. It's not off the table, but it's not in this scope.
I think what we have with Starter Edition is already awesome, and it really gives us the opportunity as Blizzard to reach out and bring more people in. If they're paying attention to WCS, if their friends are playing SC2 and they're curious, here's a great offering. You can get all the races, you can get all the maps, you can spawn up with your friend and get access to almost everything in multiplayer. I think that is the right answer for us right now.
Sounds cool but I don't buy the skins excuse. You don't have to cut out people from the game entirely if they have bad computers, just don't load skins for them. Let us people with good computers enjoy more eye-candy.
On November 19 2013 12:58 ElMeanYo wrote: Sounds cool but I don't buy the skins excuse. You don't have to cut out people from the game entirely if they have bad computers, just don't load skins for them. Let us people with good computers enjoy more eye-candy.
When they were talking about a memory limitation before i pretty much assumed they meant the 2048MB limit (from 32-bit programs?) that sc2 seems to avoid (by refusing to load everything into the game, and unloading stuff causing stutters later when you need the assets again)
I hope the 2.1 PTR comes soon because I REALLY want to hear the remastered BW music.
And I wonder if there is any convenient way to get pro team logos (KT Rolster!) without necessarily applying them into a clan. It'd be nice to show some in-game support. There is also the question of people abusing the custom logos to upload inappropriate images, but I'm sure Blizzard would be on top of addressing any reports of that happening.
edit: so apparently according to the wording of the interview, logos also apply to groups as well, so members of fan club groups might be able to apply the logos of their favorite pro teams without having to set it up through a clan.
Blizzard Wrote We think they're super cool and love doing them, but what we're running in to is a tradeoff between our ability to support a minimum spec – literally in terms of memory – on a computer.
Blizzard Wrote We think they're super cool and love doing them, but what we're running in to is a tradeoff between our ability to support a minimum spec – literally in terms of memory – on a computer.
Seriously?
Enable Unit Skins graphic option, problem solved.
..... man
PS, otherwise the patch 2.1 looks great.
Blizzard knows better then we do! ... No they don't
Blizzard Wrote We think they're super cool and love doing them, but what we're running in to is a tradeoff between our ability to support a minimum spec – literally in terms of memory – on a computer.
Seriously?
Enable Unit Skins graphic option, problem solved.
..... man
PS, otherwise the patch 2.1 looks great.
It doesn't work that way. The game has to be designed to do that from the ground up. Dota 2 and LoL do it by only loading the skins/models they are using into the game. SC2 can't do that because every game has to option to use every model. They would need to rebuild the engine from the ground up to change it so only specific models could be used on a map.
A day late and a dollar short. It feels really gross to be happy about features that were present in their previous games. Gameheart sounds neat at least.
On November 19 2013 14:11 tshi wrote: Wait what is the Brood War conversion thing? IIRC, I read something about having music in it, but what do they mean? Like the audio effects and stuff?
I don't understand why they don't release a proper demo instead of having spawn here, starter edition there, etc... ? They keep improving the starter edition to "reach out" but you still need a friend that owns SC2 to enjoy what the game really have to offer : the multiplayer.
That kind of suck for new people. I would rather see something like the free week-ends we see sometimes in steam. Free multiplayer for a few days within the starter edition, that sounds way better.
On November 19 2013 14:04 Sprouter wrote: A day late and a dollar short. It feels really gross to be happy about features that were present in their previous games. Gameheart sounds neat at least.
Which of these features were present in Brood War or Warcraft 3? Event calendars, in-game logos, extension mods, or f2p features?
On November 19 2013 14:11 tshi wrote: Wait what is the Brood War conversion thing? IIRC, I read something about having music in it, but what do they mean? Like the audio effects and stuff?
I think (could totally be wrong) he's referencing the "mod extension" capability, in which something like the mod SC2:BW could be applicable to any map much more easily than in the current implementation.
but what we're running in to is a tradeoff between our ability to support a minimum spec – literally in terms of memory – on a computer.
I gotta love how stubborn the devs are on some points of SC2.. why can't there just be a selection in options or maybe only have it in 1v1/2v2. 4v4 is laggy as it is since the engine can't handle it.
Seriously I don't get why they come up with lazy answers like they care for minimum spec PCs, how about if you try to solve the problem then for those minimum PCs and give the players something?
edit: But I guess this is the main problem with SC2, lot of focus on SP then the team slowly shrinks and gets moved on to other games. (Heroes of the Storm)
On November 19 2013 14:11 tshi wrote: Wait what is the Brood War conversion thing? IIRC, I read something about having music in it, but what do they mean? Like the audio effects and stuff?
Oh, I see. I thought they were going to move over sound effects and stuff, but there weren't any infestors/ravens etc in BW so I dont know how that would work. So it's only SC1 music reworked into SC2 and then the mod to be able to play BW stuff in SC2?
The SC1 music is really the most important point for me, though I don't see it talked about explicitly here, or in husky's interview on his channel, from a few days ago.
On November 19 2013 14:18 renkin wrote: I don't understand why they don't release a proper demo instead of having spawn here, starter edition there, etc... ? They keep improving the starter edition to "reach out" but you still need a friend that owns SC2 to enjoy what the game really have to offer : the multiplayer.
That kind of suck for new people. I would rather see something like the free week-ends we see sometimes in steam. Free multiplayer for a few days within the starter edition, that sounds way better.
The problem is once they make the ladder free for everybody, people are afraid of the numerous troll accounts that might be incoming, including past players that were banned for cheating. Not sure whether that is true or not, but I from a casual gamer pov this is basically as close to F2P multiplayer as you can get without compromising the ladder.
Really like that they are reaching out with the starter edition! I agree with the "keep them out of the ladder" opinion, I enjoy the ladder as it is for the most part and would like to keep the non paying public out. I mean... if they give them the game for free, why the fuck did I pay? Where's my refund. So I really like the way they are playing it out.
The clan ingame logo sounds SO COOL! I'll be honest I really enjoy the new skins and new visual stuff, I play this game a lot and little things like that really matter at a certain point haha
Blizzard Wrote We think they're super cool and love doing them, but what we're running in to is a tradeoff between our ability to support a minimum spec – literally in terms of memory – on a computer.
Seriously?
Enable Unit Skins graphic option, problem solved.
..... man
PS, otherwise the patch 2.1 looks great.
It doesn't work that way. The game has to be designed to do that from the ground up. Dota 2 and LoL do it by only loading the skins/models they are using into the game. SC2 can't do that because every game has to option to use every model. They would need to rebuild the engine from the ground up to change it so only specific models could be used on a map.
Well, there is a system in place to load different models based on your settings. Archons have a special model for when running on lower settings. This sort of thing can be managed by your client settings. I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to have this sort of functionality. Not being redesigned from the ground up at least.
Blizzard Wrote We think they're super cool and love doing them, but what we're running in to is a tradeoff between our ability to support a minimum spec – literally in terms of memory – on a computer.
Seriously?
Enable Unit Skins graphic option, problem solved.
..... man
PS, otherwise the patch 2.1 looks great.
It doesn't work that way. The game has to be designed to do that from the ground up. Dota 2 and LoL do it by only loading the skins/models they are using into the game. SC2 can't do that because every game has to option to use every model. They would need to rebuild the engine from the ground up to change it so only specific models could be used on a map.
Well, there is a system in place to load different models based on your settings. Archons have a special model for when running on lower settings. This sort of thing can be managed by your client settings. I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to have this sort of functionality. Not being redesigned from the ground up at least.
Probably its the same problem with automated tournaments, clan wars, etc, it not that hard, they just do not have the manpower. Compared to WoW or the currently being produced D3 expansion, SC2 dosen't generate that much revenue, thus you cannot really allocate that many devs to new features for it
Blizzard Wrote We think they're super cool and love doing them, but what we're running in to is a tradeoff between our ability to support a minimum spec – literally in terms of memory – on a computer.
Seriously?
Enable Unit Skins graphic option, problem solved.
..... man
PS, otherwise the patch 2.1 looks great.
It doesn't work that way. The game has to be designed to do that from the ground up. Dota 2 and LoL do it by only loading the skins/models they are using into the game. SC2 can't do that because every game has to option to use every model. They would need to rebuild the engine from the ground up to change it so only specific models could be used on a map.
Well, there is a system in place to load different models based on your settings. Archons have a special model for when running on lower settings. This sort of thing can be managed by your client settings. I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to have this sort of functionality. Not being redesigned from the ground up at least.
Probably its the same problem with automated tournaments, clan wars, etc, it not that hard, they just do not have the manpower. Compared to WoW or the currently being produced D3 expansion, SC2 dosen't generate that much revenue, thus you cannot really allocate that many devs to new features for it
Really sucks for peope who were disappointed with the features of vanilla sc2 but were calmed down with the reason that they will continue working on it and improve it as time progresses, huh? D:
On November 19 2013 14:18 renkin wrote: I don't understand why they don't release a proper demo instead of having spawn here, starter edition there, etc... ? They keep improving the starter edition to "reach out" but you still need a friend that owns SC2 to enjoy what the game really have to offer : the multiplayer.
That kind of suck for new people. I would rather see something like the free week-ends we see sometimes in steam. Free multiplayer for a few days within the starter edition, that sounds way better.
Thats not true at all, the only thing you'd require a friend for now is the ranked teamladders.
but what we're running in to is a tradeoff between our ability to support a minimum spec – literally in terms of memory – on a computer.
I gotta love how stubborn the devs are on some points of SC2.. why can't there just be a selection in options or maybe only have it in 1v1/2v2. 4v4 is laggy as it is since the engine can't handle it.
Seriously I don't get why they come up with lazy answers like they care for minimum spec PCs, how about if you try to solve the problem then for those minimum PCs and give the players something?
edit: But I guess this is the main problem with SC2, lot of focus on SP then the team slowly shrinks and gets moved on to other games. (Heroes of the Storm)
This is not a dev's decision. There's not a coding guy pushing his glasses back on his nose saying "No man, I can't do that. It's just too hard. What am I a programmer"
This is an executive's decision and the devs do not have any say in this (probably). Conversation probably went as follows: "Hey, Executive, can we do that?" "Will it exclude some people from playing, and thus buying, the game?" "Well, maybe... If they have like, a 10 years old computer and still use Internet Explorer 6...." "Ok, fuck it. We can't do it then."
You people probably look at Valve and Riot and say "But THEY do it!", yes, but Valve and Riot are completely independent from this kind of stuff. If a dev thinks it's a good idea, he does it and it doesn't matter. Blizzard on the other hand can't do anything they want. There's a reason they are buying themselves back.
I hope the NBA Jam map has the announcer. It wouldn't be the same without it.
He's on fire!
Jesus I was so young when my brother used to school me in this game. He used to scream this stuff in my ear and hes 10 years older than me. I'll never forget these hahahahaha.
For once though, I have to admit... These all look like very good changes to the game. Good on you blizzard, credit where credit is due. + Show Spoiler +
good good, the game is almost where it should have been at the launch of WoL
I'm happy for these changes, better late than never. Hopefully by LoV we will have an awesome game again, like BW.
EDIT: there seriously needs to be some bug fixes for lag issues and game drops... maybe they need to upgrade their servers, or switch to another provider or something, but it's just stupid that cross server play is unviable because of lag issues... hell, even though I have a really good internet connection in the EU, I still have lag issues sometimes... it would also solve A LOT of problems regarding the pro scene and help with the whole region lock thing
They should introduce a "Lowest" option for the Details dropdown in the graphic options, which disables all reward skins, collector edition models and even alternate DT models.
That would solve the problem for low spec machines and I'd probably enable it by default for the slight fps bump.
but what we're running in to is a tradeoff between our ability to support a minimum spec – literally in terms of memory – on a computer.
I gotta love how stubborn the devs are on some points of SC2.. why can't there just be a selection in options or maybe only have it in 1v1/2v2. 4v4 is laggy as it is since the engine can't handle it.
Seriously I don't get why they come up with lazy answers like they care for minimum spec PCs, how about if you try to solve the problem then for those minimum PCs and give the players something?
edit: But I guess this is the main problem with SC2, lot of focus on SP then the team slowly shrinks and gets moved on to other games. (Heroes of the Storm)
This is not a dev's decision. There's not a coding guy pushing his glasses back on his nose saying "No man, I can't do that. It's just too hard. What am I a programmer"
This is an executive's decision and the devs do not have any say in this (probably). Conversation probably went as follows: "Hey, Executive, can we do that?" "Will it exclude some people from playing, and thus buying, the game?" "Well, maybe... If they have like, a 10 years old computer and still use Internet Explorer 6...." "Ok, fuck it. We can't do it then."
You people probably look at Valve and Riot and say "But THEY do it!", yes, but Valve and Riot are completely independent from this kind of stuff. If a dev thinks it's a good idea, he does it and it doesn't matter. Blizzard on the other hand can't do anything they want. There's a reason they are buying themselves back.
I don't think it's that, at all. It's about where your engine tech lives. e.g. Riot put a boatload of their engine tech into skins (after all, it's their business model on the line). So skinning is extremely flexible and well supported by the engine. Their resource managers will be a seriously sophisticated beast.
On the other hand, SC2's engine tech went into scripting. They have a whole SP campaign to support, and arcade has virtually every genre represented. Their scripting engine is a seriously sophisticated beast. However, you can only have so many sophisticated beasts living inside your game before they start actively interfering with each other. If models and skins had 'lifetime management', delay loading, LRU-unloading, and other "skin supporting" trickyness, how much harder is it to build a stable mod/arcade map where you throw random waves of things around? A simple trigger today could become a little nest of conditional evaluation based on what resources are currently in memory. It'll still be possible, but trickier. Glitchier. Harder to get into.
I doubt they want to do anything to jeopardize map makers since they've had so much success with it historically.
About the custom skins, blizz should buy a counter strike 1.6 account and try "cl_minmodels 1" in console and voila! problem solved....since like 10 years ago or so since 1.6 was launched. They should not be afraid to do this cause they copy other game features in wow, hots etc.
On November 19 2013 19:26 Damnight wrote: While I love the patch and the free Arcade/custom games, I hope we'll never go full-free2play. We already have too many cheaters as is...
if you are good enough map hackers are not a problem .
since there is almost no one playing Wings of Liberty cant they reverse the changes they made? like putting back roach to 1 supply and 4range and colossi does 32dmg and such? now that the game is left alone.. maybe it will work it self out and balance itself like broodwar has done?
On November 19 2013 19:43 Izerman wrote: since there is almost no one playing Wings of Liberty cant they reverse the changes they made? like putting back roach to 1 supply and 4range and colossi does 32dmg and such? now that the game is left alone.. maybe it will work it self out and balance itself like broodwar has done?
(ofc not the infestor fungal thing maybe )
After LotV we need a mod that adds all the campaign units and unit modifications to multiplayer!
Blizzard Wrote We think they're super cool and love doing them, but what we're running in to is a tradeoff between our ability to support a minimum spec – literally in terms of memory – on a computer.
Seriously?
Enable Unit Skins graphic option, problem solved.
..... man
PS, otherwise the patch 2.1 looks great.
It doesn't work that way. The game has to be designed to do that from the ground up. Dota 2 and LoL do it by only loading the skins/models they are using into the game. SC2 can't do that because every game has to option to use every model. They would need to rebuild the engine from the ground up to change it so only specific models could be used on a map.
Well, there is a system in place to load different models based on your settings. Archons have a special model for when running on lower settings. This sort of thing can be managed by your client settings. I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to have this sort of functionality. Not being redesigned from the ground up at least.
Probably its the same problem with automated tournaments, clan wars, etc, it not that hard, they just do not have the manpower. Compared to WoW or the currently being produced D3 expansion, SC2 dosen't generate that much revenue, thus you cannot really allocate that many devs to new features for it
SC2 currently has the most limited human resource since part of the team is working on Heroes as well, plus it's the smallest team if you count out Hearthstone.
I want one thing now in starcraft 2, that implement vertical sincronization to have better funcionality in the gane, becouse my frames is over to 60 fps
So they're saying the engine loads every Zealot (etc.) variation into memory - and not just the selected skin version of the unit? Really? Why? Is there a good reason I'm not seeing or are Blizzard programmers/software engineers that bad these days?
I don't get how there can't be an option to have the program only load the default skins and only display the default skins. That "enable skins" options would please both the people who like skins and want more of them and people who think they're stupid and don't want to see them.
On November 19 2013 20:29 NihiLStarcraft wrote: So they're saying the engine loads every Zealot (etc.) variation into memory - and not just the selected skin version of the unit? Really? Why? Is there a good reason I'm not seeing or are Blizzard programmers/software engineers that bad these days?
Because that is how every game works unless it is designed specificlly not to work that way (dota 2 and lol). FPS games load up every character model, even if the model isn't being used in the match. This is nothing new and only since the rise of LoL has the discussion about engines that only load up the nessary models come up. People forget that SC2 was developed in 2008-2010 and free to play wasn't a thing at the time.
On November 19 2013 20:29 NihiLStarcraft wrote: So they're saying the engine loads every Zealot (etc.) variation into memory - and not just the selected skin version of the unit? Really? Why? Is there a good reason I'm not seeing or are Blizzard programmers/software engineers that bad these days?
Because that is how every game works unless it is designed specificlly not to work that way (dota 2 and lol). FPS games load up every character model, even if the model isn't being used in the match. This is nothing new and only since the rise of LoL has the discussion about engines that only load up the nessary models come up. People forget that SC2 was developed in 2008-2010 and free to play wasn't a thing at the time.
Sorry, but memory management and only loading the resources and assets you need for the game into memory has been a thing ever since the very first video games have been programmed. This has nothing to do with Dota 2, Leage of Legends or Free to Play whatsoever. If they load all skin variations instead of only the selected one, that's equally as stupid as loading all zerg unit/structure/spell/etc. assets for a 1v1 TvP ladder match. It is now and it certainly was in 2005 through 2010 or whatever.
Not only did they make a colossal mistake when writing the engine then, they also half-assed a skin system together and put it into the game which wasn't properly supported. This all wreaks of terrible programming and software engineering. What were they thinking?
On November 19 2013 20:29 NihiLStarcraft wrote: So they're saying the engine loads every Zealot (etc.) variation into memory - and not just the selected skin version of the unit? Really? Why? Is there a good reason I'm not seeing or are Blizzard programmers/software engineers that bad these days?
Because that is how every game works unless it is designed specificlly not to work that way (dota 2 and lol). FPS games load up every character model, even if the model isn't being used in the match. This is nothing new and only since the rise of LoL has the discussion about engines that only load up the nessary models come up. People forget that SC2 was developed in 2008-2010 and free to play wasn't a thing at the time.
Sorry, but memory management and only loading the resources and assets you need for the game into memory has been a thing ever since the very first video games have been programmed. This has nothing to do with Dota 2, Leage of Legends or Free to Play whatsoever. If they load all skin variations instead of only the selected one, that's equally as stupid as loading all zerg unit/structure/spell/etc. assets for a 1v1 TvP ladder match. It is now and it certainly was in 2005 through 2010 or whatever.
Not only did they make a colossal mistake when writing the engine then, they also half-assed a skin system together and put it into the game which wasn't properly supported. This all wreaks of terrible programming and software engineering. What were they thinking?
Everyone is an expert on video game development and programming on the Internet. I am willing to take Blizzards word on it, rather that pass judgment as a complete novice in the field.
This is a great step in the right direction. It maybe too little too late, but at least they are trying their hardest to compete with the big names like LoL. Can we see the rise of RTS to the top of eSports again?
On November 19 2013 20:29 NihiLStarcraft wrote: So they're saying the engine loads every Zealot (etc.) variation into memory - and not just the selected skin version of the unit? Really? Why? Is there a good reason I'm not seeing or are Blizzard programmers/software engineers that bad these days?
Because that is how every game works unless it is designed specificlly not to work that way (dota 2 and lol). FPS games load up every character model, even if the model isn't being used in the match. This is nothing new and only since the rise of LoL has the discussion about engines that only load up the nessary models come up. People forget that SC2 was developed in 2008-2010 and free to play wasn't a thing at the time.
Sorry, but memory management and only loading the resources and assets you need for the game into memory has been a thing ever since the very first video games have been programmed. This has nothing to do with Dota 2, Leage of Legends or Free to Play whatsoever. If they load all skin variations instead of only the selected one, that's equally as stupid as loading all zerg unit/structure/spell/etc. assets for a 1v1 TvP ladder match. It is now and it certainly was in 2005 through 2010 or whatever.
Not only did they make a colossal mistake when writing the engine then, they also half-assed a skin system together and put it into the game which wasn't properly supported. This all wreaks of terrible programming and software engineering. What were they thinking?
Everyone is an expert on video game development and programming on the Internet. I am willing to take Blizzards word on it, rather that pass judgment as a complete novice in the field.
Yeah... People don't really understand (or don't want to) how hard can a simple thing can be a HUGE amount of work. I love of "Terrible programing" is sentenced every time. I can't imagine building a program that took 4 or 5 years to make. Hell when i'm doing a program that takes a year to build there is so much things that become rigid because of this or that. There is so much thing that you look at as easy and when you look over the code of the other programer you're like : "Oh man this is going to be impossible to implement that with what we have right now". The game was realeased in 2010. So ("it's not 2005...." Yes it is because they started this in 2005 or something like that).
I'll make an exemple : My ex-boss made a program a few years back and for customer you could do : "Madam" or "Mister" => Boolean. 1 or 0. And then he told us : "Shit guys we now need to include MISS... so not boolean anymore and everytime this thing appear we have to rewrite the code".
Yeah. Adding Miss took a week of work (big program).
On topic : This is a REALLY great patch ! Mod support, clan logo. There's nothing wrong in this patch.
On November 19 2013 20:29 NihiLStarcraft wrote: So they're saying the engine loads every Zealot (etc.) variation into memory - and not just the selected skin version of the unit? Really? Why? Is there a good reason I'm not seeing or are Blizzard programmers/software engineers that bad these days?
Because that is how every game works unless it is designed specificlly not to work that way (dota 2 and lol). FPS games load up every character model, even if the model isn't being used in the match. This is nothing new and only since the rise of LoL has the discussion about engines that only load up the nessary models come up. People forget that SC2 was developed in 2008-2010 and free to play wasn't a thing at the time.
Sorry, but memory management and only loading the resources and assets you need for the game into memory has been a thing ever since the very first video games have been programmed. This has nothing to do with Dota 2, Leage of Legends or Free to Play whatsoever. If they load all skin variations instead of only the selected one, that's equally as stupid as loading all zerg unit/structure/spell/etc. assets for a 1v1 TvP ladder match. It is now and it certainly was in 2005 through 2010 or whatever.
Not only did they make a colossal mistake when writing the engine then, they also half-assed a skin system together and put it into the game which wasn't properly supported. This all wreaks of terrible programming and software engineering. What were they thinking?
Everyone is an expert on video game development and programming on the Internet. I am willing to take Blizzards word on it, rather that pass judgment as a complete novice in the field.
Yeah... People don't really understand (or don't want to) how hard can a simple thing can be a HUGE amount of work. I love of "Terrible programing" is sentenced every time. I can't imagine building a program that took 4 or 5 years to make. Hell when i'm doing a program that takes a year to build there is so much things that become rigid because of this or that. There is so much thing that you look at as easy and when you look over the code of the other programer you're like : "Oh man this is going to be impossible to implement that with what we have right now". The game was realeased in 2010. So ("it's not 2005...." Yes it is because they started this in 2005 or something like that).
I'll make an exemple : My ex-boss made a program a few years back and for customer you could do : "Madam" or "Mister" => Boolean. 1 or 0. And then he told us : "Shit guys we now need to include MISS... so not boolean anymore and everytime this thing appear we have to rewrite the code".
Yeah. Adding Miss took a week of work (big program).
I understand how complex software projects can become - but that is no excuse for obvious blatant mistakes like loading way too many assets into memory than necessary. Not for a company like Blizzard. I guess I'm just surprised at the kind of super rookie mistakes the coders and engineers there appear to make, I kinda imagined them to be better at what they do.
On November 19 2013 20:29 NihiLStarcraft wrote: So they're saying the engine loads every Zealot (etc.) variation into memory - and not just the selected skin version of the unit? Really? Why? Is there a good reason I'm not seeing or are Blizzard programmers/software engineers that bad these days?
Because that is how every game works unless it is designed specificlly not to work that way (dota 2 and lol). FPS games load up every character model, even if the model isn't being used in the match. This is nothing new and only since the rise of LoL has the discussion about engines that only load up the nessary models come up. People forget that SC2 was developed in 2008-2010 and free to play wasn't a thing at the time.
Sorry, but memory management and only loading the resources and assets you need for the game into memory has been a thing ever since the very first video games have been programmed. This has nothing to do with Dota 2, Leage of Legends or Free to Play whatsoever. If they load all skin variations instead of only the selected one, that's equally as stupid as loading all zerg unit/structure/spell/etc. assets for a 1v1 TvP ladder match. It is now and it certainly was in 2005 through 2010 or whatever.
Not only did they make a colossal mistake when writing the engine then, they also half-assed a skin system together and put it into the game which wasn't properly supported. This all wreaks of terrible programming and software engineering. What were they thinking?
Everyone is an expert on video game development and programming on the Internet. I am willing to take Blizzards word on it, rather that pass judgment as a complete novice in the field.
Yeah... People don't really understand (or don't want to) how hard can a simple thing can be a HUGE amount of work. I love of "Terrible programing" is sentenced every time. I can't imagine building a program that took 4 or 5 years to make. Hell when i'm doing a program that takes a year to build there is so much things that become rigid because of this or that. There is so much thing that you look at as easy and when you look over the code of the other programer you're like : "Oh man this is going to be impossible to implement that with what we have right now". The game was realeased in 2010. So ("it's not 2005...." Yes it is because they started this in 2005 or something like that).
I'll make an exemple : My ex-boss made a program a few years back and for customer you could do : "Madam" or "Mister" => Boolean. 1 or 0. And then he told us : "Shit guys we now need to include MISS... so not boolean anymore and everytime this thing appear we have to rewrite the code".
Yeah. Adding Miss took a week of work (big program).
I understand how complex software projects can become - but that is no excuse for obvious blatant mistakes like loading way too many assets into memory than necessary. Not for a company like Blizzard. I guess I'm just surprised at the kind of super rookie mistakes the coders and engineers there appear to make, I kinda imagined them to be better at what they do.
Hmmm, IDK, I might be wrong, but depends on the map-making or sth..?? I think/imagine that's how it's done
Indeed seems silly to load all the units/buildings/spells/effects before the game starts (which I really doubt it does, cause the game works faster after the Unit Preloader map is started first), but it also might depend on the map itself - for example:
What if the map has Zerg structures on it ??, or even doodads or sth.. And it's a TvP matchup played ? Hell - what if the map itself is all covered in Zerg doodads & stuff ??
We even don't know how it was planned and/or done.. Still - think that the real truth is that they haven't focused on that issue at all and just giving a "blunt" answer instead of saying that they didn't even look at the issue..
Perhaps even re-assogned the Artists (you need artist work for making new skins, right ??) to other games that are in the stage of development rather than add skins to an existing one..
======================================================================================== The patch seems to solve quite a bit important issues that exist ATM, though IMO it wasn't quite the Blizzcon material.. :/ Still happy to see it though..
but what we're running in to is a tradeoff between our ability to support a minimum spec – literally in terms of memory – on a computer.
I gotta love how stubborn the devs are on some points of SC2.. why can't there just be a selection in options or maybe only have it in 1v1/2v2. 4v4 is laggy as it is since the engine can't handle it.
Seriously I don't get why they come up with lazy answers like they care for minimum spec PCs, how about if you try to solve the problem then for those minimum PCs and give the players something?
edit: But I guess this is the main problem with SC2, lot of focus on SP then the team slowly shrinks and gets moved on to other games. (Heroes of the Storm)
This is not a dev's decision. There's not a coding guy pushing his glasses back on his nose saying "No man, I can't do that. It's just too hard. What am I a programmer"
This is an executive's decision and the devs do not have any say in this (probably). Conversation probably went as follows: "Hey, Executive, can we do that?" "Will it exclude some people from playing, and thus buying, the game?" "Well, maybe... If they have like, a 10 years old computer and still use Internet Explorer 6...." "Ok, fuck it. We can't do it then."
You people probably look at Valve and Riot and say "But THEY do it!", yes, but Valve and Riot are completely independent from this kind of stuff. If a dev thinks it's a good idea, he does it and it doesn't matter. Blizzard on the other hand can't do anything they want. There's a reason they are buying themselves back.
I don't think it's that, at all. It's about where your engine tech lives. e.g. Riot put a boatload of their engine tech into skins (after all, it's their business model on the line). So skinning is extremely flexible and well supported by the engine. Their resource managers will be a seriously sophisticated beast.
On the other hand, SC2's engine tech went into scripting. They have a whole SP campaign to support, and arcade has virtually every genre represented. Their scripting engine is a seriously sophisticated beast. However, you can only have so many sophisticated beasts living inside your game before they start actively interfering with each other. If models and skins had 'lifetime management', delay loading, LRU-unloading, and other "skin supporting" trickyness, how much harder is it to build a stable mod/arcade map where you throw random waves of things around? A simple trigger today could become a little nest of conditional evaluation based on what resources are currently in memory. It'll still be possible, but trickier. Glitchier. Harder to get into.
I doubt they want to do anything to jeopardize map makers since they've had so much success with it historically.
I wouldnt necessarily blame the engine. In lol the skin with Garen in a chicken suit most likely takes the same amount of memory that the vanilla skin because in game they load the custom skin and not the vanilla. In sc2 if you have a 4v4 game and each of the Terran players use a different skin for the marine. Then the marine now takes 4 times the memory as it used to. Now imagine this for every unit being used in the game.
I understand how complex software projects can become - but that is no excuse for obvious blatant mistakes like loading way too many assets into memory than necessary. Not for a company like Blizzard. I guess I'm just surprised at the kind of super rookie mistakes the coders and engineers there appear to make, I kinda imagined them to be better at what they do.
That's because they probably don't load uncecessary assets in memory. The limitation is in cases where they can't avoid loading the extra assets.
On November 19 2013 20:29 NihiLStarcraft wrote: So they're saying the engine loads every Zealot (etc.) variation into memory - and not just the selected skin version of the unit? Really? Why? Is there a good reason I'm not seeing or are Blizzard programmers/software engineers that bad these days?
Because that is how every game works unless it is designed specificlly not to work that way (dota 2 and lol). FPS games load up every character model, even if the model isn't being used in the match. This is nothing new and only since the rise of LoL has the discussion about engines that only load up the nessary models come up. People forget that SC2 was developed in 2008-2010 and free to play wasn't a thing at the time.
Sorry, but memory management and only loading the resources and assets you need for the game into memory has been a thing ever since the very first video games have been programmed. This has nothing to do with Dota 2, Leage of Legends or Free to Play whatsoever. If they load all skin variations instead of only the selected one, that's equally as stupid as loading all zerg unit/structure/spell/etc. assets for a 1v1 TvP ladder match. It is now and it certainly was in 2005 through 2010 or whatever.
Not only did they make a colossal mistake when writing the engine then, they also half-assed a skin system together and put it into the game which wasn't properly supported. This all wreaks of terrible programming and software engineering. What were they thinking?
Everyone is an expert on video game development and programming on the Internet. I am willing to take Blizzards word on it, rather that pass judgment as a complete novice in the field.
Yeah... People don't really understand (or don't want to) how hard can a simple thing can be a HUGE amount of work. I love of "Terrible programing" is sentenced every time. I can't imagine building a program that took 4 or 5 years to make. Hell when i'm doing a program that takes a year to build there is so much things that become rigid because of this or that. There is so much thing that you look at as easy and when you look over the code of the other programer you're like : "Oh man this is going to be impossible to implement that with what we have right now". The game was realeased in 2010. So ("it's not 2005...." Yes it is because they started this in 2005 or something like that).
I'll make an exemple : My ex-boss made a program a few years back and for customer you could do : "Madam" or "Mister" => Boolean. 1 or 0. And then he told us : "Shit guys we now need to include MISS... so not boolean anymore and everytime this thing appear we have to rewrite the code".
Yeah. Adding Miss took a week of work (big program).
I understand how complex software projects can become - but that is no excuse for obvious blatant mistakes like loading way too many assets into memory than necessary. Not for a company like Blizzard. I guess I'm just surprised at the kind of super rookie mistakes the coders and engineers there appear to make, I kinda imagined them to be better at what they do.
Did you ever design a somewhat bigger program? SC2 was never designed to have that many skins. Changing the design AFTER it is already implemented is a huge step they probably don't have the manpower for.
I cannot stress how diffferent "programming at home" and programming for a big company is. You simply can't just adjust things and hope it will work. You HAVE to "overwork" things and that costs money.
This post was kind of a let down, to be honest.. I like some changes that they're making but it's just the same questions and answers, (mostly answers) all the time. Oh well.
I understand how complex software projects can become - but that is no excuse for obvious blatant mistakes like loading way too many assets into memory than necessary. Not for a company like Blizzard. I guess I'm just surprised at the kind of super rookie mistakes the coders and engineers there appear to make, I kinda imagined them to be better at what they do.
That's because they probably don't load uncecessary assets in memory. The limitation is in cases where they can't avoid loading the extra assets.
I guess if you're playing 4vs4 with 3 Terran, 3 Protoss and 2 Zergs for example and they all chose different skins, then you'd need to load quite a bit more units into memory than usual, makes sense. That would be a reason why they claim memory limitations keeps them from expanding the super-minimal skin system currently. Although, as others have said, they could really just disable skins in 3vs3 and higher for example, if they cared.
On November 19 2013 22:42 KeksX wrote: Did you ever design a somewhat bigger program? SC2 was never designed to have that many skins. Changing the design AFTER it is already implemented is a huge step they probably don't have the manpower for.
But that's the point, the software engineers/lead programmers shouldn't have implemented skins if they knew they couldn't actually support them properly engine- or manpower-wise. Hacking it in anyways was a very bad decision that, to me, shines a very bad light on those responsible.
On November 19 2013 20:29 NihiLStarcraft wrote: So they're saying the engine loads every Zealot (etc.) variation into memory - and not just the selected skin version of the unit? Really? Why? Is there a good reason I'm not seeing or are Blizzard programmers/software engineers that bad these days?
Because that is how every game works unless it is designed specificlly not to work that way (dota 2 and lol). FPS games load up every character model, even if the model isn't being used in the match. This is nothing new and only since the rise of LoL has the discussion about engines that only load up the nessary models come up. People forget that SC2 was developed in 2008-2010 and free to play wasn't a thing at the time.
Sorry, but memory management and only loading the resources and assets you need for the game into memory has been a thing ever since the very first video games have been programmed. This has nothing to do with Dota 2, Leage of Legends or Free to Play whatsoever. If they load all skin variations instead of only the selected one, that's equally as stupid as loading all zerg unit/structure/spell/etc. assets for a 1v1 TvP ladder match. It is now and it certainly was in 2005 through 2010 or whatever.
Not only did they make a colossal mistake when writing the engine then, they also half-assed a skin system together and put it into the game which wasn't properly supported. This all wreaks of terrible programming and software engineering. What were they thinking?
So what do you do on a TvP match on a custom map that has a neutral creep tumor? What do you do when there's a TvP custom map that, at some point in the game, gives you a drone to build a hatchery to build a zerg army? What do you do on a custom map that allows to change a unit's skin mid-game?
There's two things you could do: Load everything into memory in the first place. Or have the information on what needs to be loaded in every single map, and cross reference that with what races that are being played. Which would probably cause various problems somewhere else (Hackers faking the wrong race, so their race's models won't load), as well as increase the effort it takes to make a map (Hmm, do I need that Ultralisk model?), etc.
It's a simple design decision, not a "colossal mistake".
Skins. It is a tricky one. I suggest to create a second launcher of SC2 -> 64bit launcher. This one would bypass memory limitation. 32 bit launchers would set/force all additional skins to standard - 64 bit mode would allow to use more skins. In this way 32 bit SC2 would not crash - and will be possible to add more skins.
Maybe i am wrong - but i think that tommorow would be PTR for SC2 active.
On November 19 2013 22:59 Conti wrote: There's two things you could do: Load everything into memory in the first place. Or have the information on what needs to be loaded in every single map, and cross reference that with what races that are being played. Which would probably cause various problems somewhere else (Hackers faking the wrong race, so their race's models won't load), as well as increase the effort it takes to make a map (Hmm, do I need that Ultralisk model?), etc.
It's a simple design decision, not a "colossal mistake".
I see where you're coming from but if they made the design decision to dumb-load EVERYTHING all the time instead of referencing used assets in the maps, that's a pretty damn bad decision in my opinion. Whatever, obviously none of us know the exact workings of the engine, so we can only speculate.
On November 19 2013 20:29 NihiLStarcraft wrote: So they're saying the engine loads every Zealot (etc.) variation into memory - and not just the selected skin version of the unit? Really? Why? Is there a good reason I'm not seeing or are Blizzard programmers/software engineers that bad these days?
Because that is how every game works unless it is designed specificlly not to work that way (dota 2 and lol). FPS games load up every character model, even if the model isn't being used in the match. This is nothing new and only since the rise of LoL has the discussion about engines that only load up the nessary models come up. People forget that SC2 was developed in 2008-2010 and free to play wasn't a thing at the time.
Sorry, but memory management and only loading the resources and assets you need for the game into memory has been a thing ever since the very first video games have been programmed. This has nothing to do with Dota 2, Leage of Legends or Free to Play whatsoever. If they load all skin variations instead of only the selected one, that's equally as stupid as loading all zerg unit/structure/spell/etc. assets for a 1v1 TvP ladder match. It is now and it certainly was in 2005 through 2010 or whatever.
Not only did they make a colossal mistake when writing the engine then, they also half-assed a skin system together and put it into the game which wasn't properly supported. This all wreaks of terrible programming and software engineering. What were they thinking?
So what do you do on a TvP match on a custom map that has a neutral creep tumor? What do you do when there's a TvP custom map that, at some point in the game, gives you a drone to build a hatchery to build a zerg army? What do you do on a custom map that allows to change a unit's skin mid-game?
There's two things you could do: Load everything into memory in the first place. Or have the information on what needs to be loaded in every single map, and cross reference that with what races that are being played. Which would probably cause various problems somewhere else (Hackers faking the wrong race, so their race's models won't load), as well as increase the effort it takes to make a map (Hmm, do I need that Ultralisk model?), etc.
It's a simple design decision, not a "colossal mistake".
Third option is you load assets in memory as you need them and unload them when they are no longer needed.
Blizzard Wrote We think they're super cool and love doing them, but what we're running in to is a tradeoff between our ability to support a minimum spec – literally in terms of memory – on a computer.
Seriously?
Enable Unit Skins graphic option, problem solved.
..... man
PS, otherwise the patch 2.1 looks great.
Blizzard knows better then we do! ... No they don't
This wont work because everyone sees the skins. So part of the problem is they dont want people to be able to disable other peoples skins.
On November 19 2013 22:59 Conti wrote: There's two things you could do: Load everything into memory in the first place. Or have the information on what needs to be loaded in every single map, and cross reference that with what races that are being played. Which would probably cause various problems somewhere else (Hackers faking the wrong race, so their race's models won't load), as well as increase the effort it takes to make a map (Hmm, do I need that Ultralisk model?), etc.
It's a simple design decision, not a "colossal mistake".
I see where you're coming from but if they made the design decision to dumb-load EVERYTHING all the time instead of referencing used assets in the maps, that's a pretty damn bad decision in my opinion. Whatever, obviously none of us know the exact workings of the engine, so we can only speculate.
How do you determine what assets are used in a map?
I'm serious. Go ahead and read a few tutorials on the SC2 map editor. If I wanted, I could create a map that gives people an entirely randomly chosen unit every 5 minutes. It would not be possible to determine what those units are beforehand (unless you hack the RNG, I suppose).
I see where you're coming from in regards to 1v1 ladder maps, yes. But that's not the only concern you have as a programmer. It's not "Does this work here?" but "Does this work everywhere? With every possible configuration?" And given that custom maps have a gigantic amount of freedom in what they are allowed to do, loading everything into memory seems like a sensible thing to do.
On November 19 2013 22:59 Conti wrote: There's two things you could do: Load everything into memory in the first place. Or have the information on what needs to be loaded in every single map, and cross reference that with what races that are being played. Which would probably cause various problems somewhere else (Hackers faking the wrong race, so their race's models won't load), as well as increase the effort it takes to make a map (Hmm, do I need that Ultralisk model?), etc.
It's a simple design decision, not a "colossal mistake".
I see where you're coming from but if they made the design decision to dumb-load EVERYTHING all the time instead of referencing used assets in the maps, that's a pretty damn bad decision in my opinion. Whatever, obviously none of us know the exact workings of the engine, so we can only speculate.
How do you determine what assets are used in a map?
I'm serious. Go ahead and read a few tutorials on the SC2 map editor. If I wanted, I could create a map that gives people an entirely randomly chosen unit every 5 minutes. It would not be possible to determine what those units are beforehand (unless you hack the RNG, I suppose).
I see where you're coming from in regards to 1v1 ladder maps, yes. But that's not the only concern you have as a programmer. It's not "Does this work here?" but "Does this work everywhere? With every possible configuration?" And given that custom maps have a gigantic amount of freedom in what they are allowed to do, loading everything into memory seems like a sensible thing to do.
Also , only loading up the skins/units that the game needs on a given match only makes the loading a more complex and increases the chances of bugs and errors. Also, SC2 is a 32 bit game, so they are limited by that as well.
On November 19 2013 13:12 ishida66 wrote: Now remove sentries, buff tanks and we have a perfect game.
I agree to an extent. It wouldn't be perfect but it would be steps that I'd agree with personally. Just don't forget the fact that a couple of "fixed" fungals can chain a maxed air army to death... (Thorzain vs. can't remember @HSC)
Bah, I'm not going to nag, the game's still very good. Conjoining arcade to the starter edition seems eerily humble of Blizzard. To be frank, I wonder what their angle is, but in the meanwhile I'm going to introduce a couple of friends to the game.
Even if I did not use the few new skins that are available since HotS even once, it somehow makes me sad that there are no new skins on their way... I just like the Idea of unlockable stuff by playing more and more.
Besides, I hope 2.1 is coming soon, can't wait to make a ingame clan logo. Hopefully they give you the option to import your own logo, I'm so pumped to make the dumbest logo out there :D
On November 19 2013 22:59 Conti wrote: There's two things you could do: Load everything into memory in the first place. Or have the information on what needs to be loaded in every single map, and cross reference that with what races that are being played. Which would probably cause various problems somewhere else (Hackers faking the wrong race, so their race's models won't load), as well as increase the effort it takes to make a map (Hmm, do I need that Ultralisk model?), etc.
It's a simple design decision, not a "colossal mistake".
I see where you're coming from but if they made the design decision to dumb-load EVERYTHING all the time instead of referencing used assets in the maps, that's a pretty damn bad decision in my opinion. Whatever, obviously none of us know the exact workings of the engine, so we can only speculate.
How do you determine what assets are used in a map?
I'm serious. Go ahead and read a few tutorials on the SC2 map editor. If I wanted, I could create a map that gives people an entirely randomly chosen unit every 5 minutes. It would not be possible to determine what those units are beforehand (unless you hack the RNG, I suppose).
I see where you're coming from in regards to 1v1 ladder maps, yes. But that's not the only concern you have as a programmer. It's not "Does this work here?" but "Does this work everywhere? With every possible configuration?" And given that custom maps have a gigantic amount of freedom in what they are allowed to do, loading everything into memory seems like a sensible thing to do.
Also , only loading up the skins/units that the game needs on a given match only makes the loading a more complex and increases the chances of bugs and errors. Also, SC2 is a 32 bit game, so they are limited by that as well.
your technical expertise really adds so much to this thread... breaking out the "32 bit" comment... just pwnage.
neither side on this "debate" really has a clue and the entire debate just lowers the signal to noise ratio of the thread.
its a great move making the entire Arcade free in the Starter Edition. its a nice little "on ramp" to getting people to spend money on the actual game.. nice marketing strat by Blizz.
so far... every F2P RTS has gone down in a giant ball of flames.
On November 19 2013 22:59 Conti wrote: There's two things you could do: Load everything into memory in the first place. Or have the information on what needs to be loaded in every single map, and cross reference that with what races that are being played. Which would probably cause various problems somewhere else (Hackers faking the wrong race, so their race's models won't load), as well as increase the effort it takes to make a map (Hmm, do I need that Ultralisk model?), etc.
It's a simple design decision, not a "colossal mistake".
I see where you're coming from but if they made the design decision to dumb-load EVERYTHING all the time instead of referencing used assets in the maps, that's a pretty damn bad decision in my opinion. Whatever, obviously none of us know the exact workings of the engine, so we can only speculate.
How do you determine what assets are used in a map?
I'm serious. Go ahead and read a few tutorials on the SC2 map editor. If I wanted, I could create a map that gives people an entirely randomly chosen unit every 5 minutes. It would not be possible to determine what those units are beforehand (unless you hack the RNG, I suppose).
I see where you're coming from in regards to 1v1 ladder maps, yes. But that's not the only concern you have as a programmer. It's not "Does this work here?" but "Does this work everywhere? With every possible configuration?" And given that custom maps have a gigantic amount of freedom in what they are allowed to do, loading everything into memory seems like a sensible thing to do.
Also , only loading up the skins/units that the game needs on a given match only makes the loading a more complex and increases the chances of bugs and errors. Also, SC2 is a 32 bit game, so they are limited by that as well.
There is no possible way SC2 loads everything in memory from the start of a game. Way it probably works is almost all assets start out not in memory. Zerg player builds a zergling, sc2 fetches the zergling model and stores it in memory and so forth.
About the custom skins... They left out a key piece of information. In the map editor, the custom skins are Model Swap events. What this means is that if you have a custom skin for say, a zergling, the game transforms all of that players zerglings into the new one as soon as the model is created. I'm not sure what this means in terms of what actually gets loaded, however I think it might mean that both sets of assets need to be loaded by the game because those assets are an inherent part of that unit. I think that may be part of the limitation they are talking about, and that somehow the way they have these skins set up (as a model swap instead of replacing the assets) may be part of what is limiting things.
Anyway, the free arcade thing is really awesome motivation to finish my latest arcade map project. Better get on it!
On November 19 2013 14:04 Sprouter wrote: A day late and a dollar short. It feels really gross to be happy about features that were present in their previous games. Gameheart sounds neat at least.
Which of the features in this article were present in their previous games exactly? Sometimes it feels people are being negative for the sake of being negative, no reason to be mad? Np, make one up.
I don't know I mean I am excited for these things, but they come so late. I can't help but say....Warcraft 3 had these things. I would imagine most of the devs are actually working on legacy of the void than HOTS now, they probably only have a few people who report to DB, but DB seems busy with Heroes of the storm lol. I guess awesome they are coming?
On November 20 2013 00:11 HeeroFX wrote: I don't know I mean I am excited for these things, but they come so late. I can't help but say....Warcraft 3 had these things. I would imagine most of the devs are actually working on legacy of the void than HOTS now, they probably only have a few people who report to DB, but DB seems busy with Heroes of the storm lol. I guess awesome they are coming?
Just curious, which of these things (besides automated tournaments) did WC3 have?
You know, extensions make it way easier to, say, run a tournament with a 300-supply cap. While WCS won't do it (probably), we could much more easily start having tournaments with custom rules and doing our own balancing as a community.
On November 19 2013 19:26 Damnight wrote: While I love the patch and the free Arcade/custom games, I hope we'll never go full-free2play. We already have too many cheaters as is...
if you are good enough map hackers are not a problem .
That is false. And for reference you may talk to any progamer, they'll either all say it's a problem. You may take a look at this case of proofen maphack, ( he won money using hacks): http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1kw547/ The link inside the reddit thread links to myStarcraft a german site that did an extensive research about everything around imbatoss.
On November 19 2013 22:59 Conti wrote: There's two things you could do: Load everything into memory in the first place. Or have the information on what needs to be loaded in every single map, and cross reference that with what races that are being played. Which would probably cause various problems somewhere else (Hackers faking the wrong race, so their race's models won't load), as well as increase the effort it takes to make a map (Hmm, do I need that Ultralisk model?), etc.
It's a simple design decision, not a "colossal mistake".
I see where you're coming from but if they made the design decision to dumb-load EVERYTHING all the time instead of referencing used assets in the maps, that's a pretty damn bad decision in my opinion. Whatever, obviously none of us know the exact workings of the engine, so we can only speculate.
How do you determine what assets are used in a map?
I'm serious. Go ahead and read a few tutorials on the SC2 map editor. If I wanted, I could create a map that gives people an entirely randomly chosen unit every 5 minutes. It would not be possible to determine what those units are beforehand (unless you hack the RNG, I suppose).
I see where you're coming from in regards to 1v1 ladder maps, yes. But that's not the only concern you have as a programmer. It's not "Does this work here?" but "Does this work everywhere? With every possible configuration?" And given that custom maps have a gigantic amount of freedom in what they are allowed to do, loading everything into memory seems like a sensible thing to do.
Also , only loading up the skins/units that the game needs on a given match only makes the loading a more complex and increases the chances of bugs and errors. Also, SC2 is a 32 bit game, so they are limited by that as well.
your technical expertise really adds so much to this thread... breaking out the "32 bit" comment... just pwnage.
neither side on this "debate" really has a clue and the entire debate just lowers the signal to noise ratio of the thread.
its a great move making the entire Arcade free in the Starter Edition. its a nice little "on ramp" to getting people to spend money on the actual game.. nice marketing strat by Blizz.
so far... every F2P RTS has gone down in a giant ball of flames.
May I ask whats so bad about stating the fact that that SC2 is a 32bit application?
All that was listed as possible changes can do nothing but good for SC2, especially freeing up the Starter Edition to all races and Arcade.
The changes to clan management seems the most interesting, mainly regarding possible clan wars and a "clan ranking" which sounds like a cool idea to really get people playing again. Would this be ranked through clan-based competition or more like collecting the rank or ELO of the clan members or something? Cause I'd love seeing a lot more whole teams fighting each other outside of the limited number of streamed team leagues like the SPL and ATC.
Now, Gameheart can be created once as an "extension mod" and published once. A player can then choose any map and choose to "extend" it with Gameheart, granting that map all the features of GameHeart.
The extension thing is a good idea considering how widely-used GameHeart is becoming, but also such a thing could also really help things like Peepmode or SC2BW use many more maps and still have a single, centralized page to be found by everyone.
My hopes are high for 2.1 now, let's hope it keeps all these lovely promises. + Show Spoiler +
Sorry if my post is mostly being excited and stating the obvious. Much love. #sc2notdead
Server: EU Team Name: Expoprost Website: Expoprost.com Leader/Managers: Warrion Chat Channel: EST General Team League Level: Master, GML Goals of Team: Here we hope to create a fun and relaxing environment for players to practice and gradually become better players in the competitive world of Starcraft. There will be routine practices and clan wars. Eventually we hope to become a well known clan with good players. Other: We promise that in time anyone that joins will become better and smarter players.
On November 19 2013 22:59 Conti wrote: There's two things you could do: Load everything into memory in the first place. Or have the information on what needs to be loaded in every single map, and cross reference that with what races that are being played. Which would probably cause various problems somewhere else (Hackers faking the wrong race, so their race's models won't load), as well as increase the effort it takes to make a map (Hmm, do I need that Ultralisk model?), etc.
It's a simple design decision, not a "colossal mistake".
I see where you're coming from but if they made the design decision to dumb-load EVERYTHING all the time instead of referencing used assets in the maps, that's a pretty damn bad decision in my opinion. Whatever, obviously none of us know the exact workings of the engine, so we can only speculate.
How do you determine what assets are used in a map?
I'm serious. Go ahead and read a few tutorials on the SC2 map editor. If I wanted, I could create a map that gives people an entirely randomly chosen unit every 5 minutes. It would not be possible to determine what those units are beforehand (unless you hack the RNG, I suppose).
I see where you're coming from in regards to 1v1 ladder maps, yes. But that's not the only concern you have as a programmer. It's not "Does this work here?" but "Does this work everywhere? With every possible configuration?" And given that custom maps have a gigantic amount of freedom in what they are allowed to do, loading everything into memory seems like a sensible thing to do.
Also , only loading up the skins/units that the game needs on a given match only makes the loading a more complex and increases the chances of bugs and errors. Also, SC2 is a 32 bit game, so they are limited by that as well.
your technical expertise really adds so much to this thread... breaking out the "32 bit" comment... just pwnage.
neither side on this "debate" really has a clue and the entire debate just lowers the signal to noise ratio of the thread.
its a great move making the entire Arcade free in the Starter Edition. its a nice little "on ramp" to getting people to spend money on the actual game.. nice marketing strat by Blizz.
so far... every F2P RTS has gone down in a giant ball of flames.
May I ask whats so bad about stating the fact that that SC2 is a 32bit application?
Jimmy doesn't understand that being a 32 bit system limits the amount of memory SC2 can take advantage of.
On November 20 2013 02:02 Vihr wrote: Server: EU Team Name: Expoprost Website: Expoprost.com Leader/Managers: Warrion Chat Channel: EST General Team League Level: Master, GML Goals of Team: Here we hope to create a fun and relaxing environment for players to practice and gradually become better players in the competitive world of Starcraft. There will be routine practices and clan wars. Eventually we hope to become a well known clan with good players. Other: We promise that in time anyone that joins will become better and smarter players.
On November 19 2013 14:30 Hiro45 wrote: But when is it coming??
"soon®"
But how soon? This is the most critical information! Why isn't there even a vague estimate? Without an ETA, the rest becomes a dream, nothing to be taken too seriously...
On November 19 2013 14:30 Hiro45 wrote: But when is it coming??
"soon®"
But how soon? This is the most critical information! Why isn't there even a vague estimate? Without an ETA, the rest becomes a dream, nothing to be taken too seriously...
Blizzard has exactly one ETA that they use for all of their products: when it's ready.
On November 19 2013 14:30 Hiro45 wrote: But when is it coming??
"soon®"
But how soon? This is the most critical information! Why isn't there even a vague estimate? Without an ETA, the rest becomes a dream, nothing to be taken too seriously...
On November 19 2013 14:30 Hiro45 wrote: But when is it coming??
"soon®"
But how soon? This is the most critical information! Why isn't there even a vague estimate? Without an ETA, the rest becomes a dream, nothing to be taken too seriously...
They said at Blizzcon that the patch 2.1.0 would be live before 2014, and that a PTR would be up before december
Can anyone clarify what they mean about the Brood War total conversion Mod? Is it only that you can amalgamate the SCBW maps, or is it something further?
On November 20 2013 03:59 mau5mat wrote: Can anyone clarify what they mean about the Brood War total conversion Mod? Is it only that you can amalgamate the SCBW maps, or is it something further?
There's a map in the arcade that emulates BroodWar with old units and such.
On November 19 2013 14:30 Hiro45 wrote: But when is it coming??
"soon®"
But how soon? This is the most critical information! Why isn't there even a vague estimate? Without an ETA, the rest becomes a dream, nothing to be taken too seriously...
The said at Blizzcon that the patch 2.1.0 would be live before 2014, and that a PTR would be up before december
On November 20 2013 03:59 mau5mat wrote: Can anyone clarify what they mean about the Brood War total conversion Mod? Is it only that you can amalgamate the SCBW maps, or is it something further?
There's a map in the arcade that emulates BroodWar with old units and such.
I understand, but what does it mean for SCBW (the name of the mod)
I would love it if they would fix one of the most annoying things when playing custom games on melee settings: Being able to choose all colours and the non-colour instead of a limited amount of colours which is the case up to now. That + BW music seems like a nice amount of customization options. *Give me black units and buildings*
On November 20 2013 03:59 mau5mat wrote: Can anyone clarify what they mean about the Brood War total conversion Mod? Is it only that you can amalgamate the SCBW maps, or is it something further?
There's a map in the arcade that emulates BroodWar with old units and such.
I understand, but what does it mean for SCBW (the name of the mod)
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but what they're doing here is letting people use mods just as you would observer interfaces putting them above any other map.
Say you want to play SCBW on the new StarStation but the SCBW creator hasn't modded that map, you pick the map then you pick the mod and it will work.
On November 20 2013 03:59 mau5mat wrote: Can anyone clarify what they mean about the Brood War total conversion Mod? Is it only that you can amalgamate the SCBW maps, or is it something further?
There's a map in the arcade that emulates BroodWar with old units and such.
I understand, but what does it mean for SCBW (the name of the mod)
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but what they're doing here is letting people use mods just as you would observer interfaces putting them above any other map.
Say you want to play SCBW on the new StarStation but the SCBW creator hasn't modded that map, you pick the map then you pick the mod and it will work.
On November 20 2013 03:59 mau5mat wrote: Can anyone clarify what they mean about the Brood War total conversion Mod? Is it only that you can amalgamate the SCBW maps, or is it something further?
There's a map in the arcade that emulates BroodWar with old units and such.
I understand, but what does it mean for SCBW (the name of the mod)
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but what they're doing here is letting people use mods just as you would observer interfaces putting them above any other map.
Say you want to play SCBW on the new StarStation but the SCBW creator hasn't modded that map, you pick the map then you pick the mod and it will work.
Right, now you can play SC2BW on whatever map you please. (Although what is unclear to me is how they will address the issue of resources being different - 1 gas instead of 2, 9 patches instead of 8 - Because afaik a mod file as it currently exists does not replace the existing Vespene Geyser and Mineral Field units, but rather creates new ones that can be used either-or. I guess if they're doing BGH they must have a method for resource replacement or something.)
On November 19 2013 14:30 Hiro45 wrote: But when is it coming??
"soon®"
But how soon? This is the most critical information! Why isn't there even a vague estimate? Without an ETA, the rest becomes a dream, nothing to be taken too seriously...
Blizzard has exactly one ETA that they use for all of their products: when it's ready.
It'd be cool if this actually ended up being true in practice. As it stands, it's just a convenient excuse; a platitude thrown out by developers to assuage discontent. If Blizzard only releases products when they're ready, then there wouldn't be massive, and I mean massive failings in vanilla Sc2 WoL, or hell, Diablo 3 is an even better example (doesn't matter if you think it's good today; at launch, there were a tonne of issues, and the entire design philosophy was wrongheaded). Blizzard isn't a horrible company, or anything, but they're not shining white knights who refuse to throw so-called "unfinished" products out into the world for the sake of the gamer. Remember when WoL didn't have chat channels?
I'm not too sure about how our main structures are going to look with decals + clan icons. I'd have been all for clan decals, but I'm afraid too many of those custom things will be a bit too much.
On November 20 2013 05:54 Jampackedeon wrote: This stuff is going in a great direction - free arcade and making all 3 races playable for free is just smart.
On November 20 2013 03:59 mau5mat wrote: Can anyone clarify what they mean about the Brood War total conversion Mod? Is it only that you can amalgamate the SCBW maps, or is it something further?
There's a map in the arcade that emulates BroodWar with old units and such.
I understand, but what does it mean for SCBW (the name of the mod)
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but what they're doing here is letting people use mods just as you would observer interfaces putting them above any other map.
Say you want to play SCBW on the new StarStation but the SCBW creator hasn't modded that map, you pick the map then you pick the mod and it will work.
Right, now you can play SC2BW on whatever map you please. (Although what is unclear to me is how they will address the issue of resources being different - 1 gas instead of 2, 9 patches instead of 8 - Because afaik a mod file as it currently exists does not replace the existing Vespene Geyser and Mineral Field units, but rather creates new ones that can be used either-or. I guess if they're doing BGH they must have a method for resource replacement or something.)
this was my initial reaction it aswell. CC/Nexus/Hatch being a different size than in SC2 could also create some strange circumstances.
i may just make the mod an extension and then publish maps as "intended to be played with the SC2BW extension, not for Standard SC2 Play" or something.
Wait, they're porting or simply making a form of BW on Arcade? Is everyone excited? Are you planning to play it? Which chat forum for all of the inevitable build order and general discussion go under?
On November 20 2013 10:13 WeddingEpisode wrote: Wait, they're porting or simply making a form of BW on Arcade?
"They" are doing neither if by "they" you mean Blizzard.
They are making it possible to create Extention mods, which will take an existing map and modify it to fit the specifications of the extension. You can read more in the OP.
These are all pretty good, I'm in the better late than never camp, though still annoyed at how long some of these patently obvious things have taken to be implemented.
The reworking of modded content is REALLY welcome. Such a pain to want to play a map say with a Gameheart overlay and be unable to if that specific map isn't there.
The events notification and improved clan shit is fucking welcome as well.
I vaguely remember hearing something at Blizzcon about them fixing the AFK host problem--has there been any indication that they're planning on implementing that in this next patch?
On November 20 2013 05:54 Jampackedeon wrote: This stuff is going in a great direction - free arcade and making all 3 races playable for free is just smart.
but doesn't it come years too late?
No it's not years too late. This whole "well they could have done this sooner" thing is really, really stupid. It's here now, be happy about it instead of crying about what you cannot change right?
On November 20 2013 05:54 Jampackedeon wrote: This stuff is going in a great direction - free arcade and making all 3 races playable for free is just smart.
but doesn't it come years too late?
No it's not years too late. This whole "well they could have done this sooner" thing is really, really stupid. It's here now, be happy about it instead of crying about what you cannot change right?
Wasn't there a guy that announced he'd stop playing when they announced the feature of fastforwarding your replays? That was really funny. 'I had no problem with playing that game without that feature but if they introduce it 4 years later than I wanted it, I'll stop playing'
Great patch, personally I am happy they are committing to the free and community stuff and moving away from trying to force everyone playing 1v1 ladder. What would be really neat and I am suprised that it isn't even mentioned is the ability to set up tournament brackets within the client, I mean the calendar feature is nice but if I have to use z33k or some other third party tournament app to manage signups and seeds why on earth would I bother using the ingame notification system?
On November 20 2013 13:26 d_runk wrote: Great patch, personally I am happy they are committing to the free and community stuff and moving away from trying to force everyone playing 1v1 ladder. What would be really neat and I am suprised that it isn't even mentioned is the ability to set up tournament brackets within the client, I mean the calendar feature is nice but if I have to use z33k or some other third party tournament app to manage signups and seeds why on earth would I bother using the ingame notification system?
The technology to host tournaments within the game client just isn't there yet, we will have to wait for Warcraft 3 to come out before this will be possible.
On November 20 2013 13:26 d_runk wrote: Great patch, personally I am happy they are committing to the free and community stuff and moving away from trying to force everyone playing 1v1 ladder. What would be really neat and I am suprised that it isn't even mentioned is the ability to set up tournament brackets within the client, I mean the calendar feature is nice but if I have to use z33k or some other third party tournament app to manage signups and seeds why on earth would I bother using the ingame notification system?
The technology to host tournaments within the game client just isn't there yet, we will have to wait for Warcraft 3 to come out before this will be possible.
On November 21 2013 03:00 Wombat_NI wrote: Still boggles my mind that a game designed with E-sports in mind doesn't have integrated tournaments.
Imagine how much smoother something like the daily/weekly cups could run of brackets and all that could be done within the game client.
I agree.
It'd be neat if someone could create a tournament through the SC2 client. They should be able set up brackets and rules (whether it's double elimination, single, group play, etc).
Then the tournament organizer could add players to the tournament and (once all players are added) randomize the bracket.
When it's time to play, both players (on the same side of a bracket for example), could have to go through a tournament menu to play (then they'll automatically play Bo3 and Bo5).
(Also the game wouldn't allow you to play with anyone else in the tournament except the opponent that actually signed up.)
Once those games are done, then the results and brackets could be automatically updated.
If done properly, it could be worth it. For big name tournaments (like GSL) doing it manually would probably be the best way but when doing it for huge online qualifiers or daily tournaments, it may be really helpful.
The only potential reason I was thinking is maybe some of the companies that run the dailies and weeklies depend on the ad revenue that comes through their specific portals and maybe Blizz doesn't want to step on their toes.
There was nothing more fun than the old WC3 tourneys to break up the monotony of ladder too, going in with your clan mates, discussing your games in your clan channel etc.
I do harp on, but that kind of social experience was great. It's a pain in ye the ass to have to tab in and out of third party programmes all the time. Tbh I consider it a ridiculous, nigh-on disgraceful oversight that at the very least SC2 didn't launch with the same features that the Frozen Throne ended up with.
EPT
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