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DinosaurPoop
687 Posts
On October 31 2013 09:27 Goldfish wrote: Most micro in SC2 is one-dimensional and simply involves how fast you do it (splitting marines against banelings, etc). lol ever seen a FPVOD of marineking splitting? it is quite unique despite how they look ingame | ||
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Nirel
Israel1526 Posts
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On November 01 2013 01:09 XXXSmOke wrote: Exactly. All of these "defenders" of the legacy of SC2 should be happy as can be because this could be a huge break through and make the game even way better, yet instead now they just bitch and moan saying O they said the Brood War word WAGHHHHH. Or even worse they feel like when we talk about BW were making SC2 feel like a "lesser" game. What is this kindergarten again???????? Did you guys think he was going to go pull videos of insane microabilty from Age of Empires? Derp. The previous huge breakthroughs like this also weren't huge breakthroughs in the end (like stuff with unit pathing). And did you maybe ever consider that other people have different opinions about what constitutes a better game? I do get you feel superior to everyone with a different opinion, but maybe I am against it because I don't think it will be an improvement to the game, with as pretty much only reason to implement it that it was also that way in BW. I think it is really hard to argue vesicular's point, that it makes little sense that a viking needs a small amount of time to fire. What I consider even making less sense is that all air units should have 0 firing delay because they are air units. Why should it only be for air units and not ground units? Thats a completely arbitrary distinction. Add that the video is basicly that BW was so much better, and that he didn't even comment on how he thinks it would affect balance and the meta game, and I am simply not that impressed. Not saying he didn't spend alot of time on it, especially by trying out different values, but that contrary to the average TL'er apparantly I am not in favor of automatically introducing all of this. On November 01 2013 01:10 ( bush wrote: WE MUST HAVE a tournament with these settings, otherwise this work will be just another big waste of time, we can't just expect Blizzard to read this thread and apply major changes to the game. I can tell you what a tournament would be with these settings: Imbalanced. It is a huge boost to the kiting ability of some units, especially longer ranged ones. You cannot just do it and expect it to not affect balance. | ||
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grunge
United States40 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
Starbow is an attempt to create a follow-up to Brood War using the SC2 engine, but they have tweaked a lot of the underlying mechanics. I think the mod is not yet finished, but it is apparently quite playable. I don't know if it best fits the desire of having a test map to try out these suggestions by LaLush, but people should play it anyway, here's the thread for it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955 On November 01 2013 02:01 Sissors wrote: The previous huge breakthroughs like this also weren't huge breakthroughs in the end (like stuff with unit pathing). And did you maybe ever consider that other people have different opinions about what constitutes a better game? I do get you feel superior to everyone with a different opinion, but maybe I am against it because I don't think it will be an improvement to the game, with as pretty much only reason to implement it that it was also that way in BW. I think it is really hard to argue vesicular's point, that it makes little sense that a viking needs a small amount of time to fire. What I consider even making less sense is that all air units should have 0 firing delay because they are air units. Why should it only be for air units and not ground units? Thats a completely arbitrary distinction. Add that the video is basicly that BW was so much better, and that he didn't even comment on how he thinks it would affect balance and the meta game, and I am simply not that impressed. I think you have to accept that if you are creating an e-sports that it is going to be arcade style with a lack of realism. There are other RTS games (well, from the past) for people that prefer more realistic war simulation games. On November 01 2013 02:09 Plansix wrote: I want to see it just to see how upset people get when the colossi can just walk back and fire with no delay because it's turret doesn't move. Introduce these changes in the expansion and remove the colossus, easy. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 01 2013 02:04 grunge wrote: I don't think its about "balance" so much as it is about increasing the skill ceiling and opening a wider range for variety in play-styles. I want to see it just to see how upset people get when the colossi can just walk back and fire with no delay because it's turret doesn't move. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On November 01 2013 01:06 lolfail9001 wrote: Your post is great, but you misused word 'bug'. Neither of those are bugs. Oracle one is especially just a demonstration of overkill prevention. And besides, oracles aren't really used in large groups. They're cheesy harass units that usually operate solo or in duos. I really like the vid, and the idea of having vikings and banshees that turn & shoot immediately is a very nice, but it would also make those units ridiculously overpowered. Turrets following targets, on the other hand, feels like a necessity. I cringed when I saw those two tanks lose to a mere 5 or so zealots. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On November 01 2013 02:10 maartendq wrote:I cringed when I saw those two tanks lose to a mere 5 or so zealots. 2 tanks against 5 zealots? That would happen even in BW /s | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 01 2013 02:09 Plansix wrote: I want to see it just to see how upset people get when the colossi can just walk back and fire with no delay because it's turret doesn't move. I think a point that has been lost from Lalush's posts is that enabling that kind of micro potential does very little to enhance the offensive capabilities of the colossus, but it GREATLY enhances the defensive capabilities which just does so much for the game in terms of excitement and build order optimisation. | ||
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
I miss Leta, he was a f***ing gosu. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24604 Posts
On November 01 2013 02:21 Plexa wrote: I think a point that has been lost from Lalush's posts is that enabling that kind of micro potential does very little to enhance the offensive capabilities of the colossus, but it GREATLY enhances the defensive capabilities which just does so much for the game in terms of excitement and build order optimisation. I think that is true with tanks, and maybe immortals. But with Colossus I think it's false. The sort of dancing Colossus do just before engagements, and sometimes during them, will be enhanced with a turret facing the enemy. Thus making them stronger. Edit: The counterargument might be that the good colossus microers might not have an issue with the rate of turning. This then being due to relatively slow rates of fire by the unit, and that they don't have to push units away from it as it turns around. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 01 2013 02:21 Plexa wrote: I think a point that has been lost from Lalush's posts is that enabling that kind of micro potential does very little to enhance the offensive capabilities of the colossus, but it GREATLY enhances the defensive capabilities which just does so much for the game in terms of excitement and build order optimisation. I still want to see it because it will be really funny to watch a colossi show a marine how to stutter step with lasers. I want to see it with a Thor too, to be fair. I think it would be a good change, but some balance adjustments will be necessary if it got put in place. Many adjustments. | ||
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SjPhotoGrapher
181 Posts
The reason why BW had most of these micro mechanics is because it's an older game that required multiple key presses to do some actions. SC2's engine is much more updated and effecient so you don't have to do things like move each scv to it's mining location which is tedious and boring and add's no value to the game. | ||
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rasers
Sweden691 Posts
On November 01 2013 02:36 SjPhotoGrapher wrote: The game is fine as it is. SC2's micro ceiling has yet to be reached (just take a look at the sc2 bot videos to see what I'm talking about). The reason why BW had most of these micro mechanics is because it's an older game that required multiple key presses to do some actions. SC2's engine is much more updated and effecient so you don't have to do things like move each scv to it's mining location which is tedious and boring and add's no value to the game. u didn't watch the video at all. go away. | ||
HaN-
France1920 Posts
This is really depressing to imagine what SC2 could have been.. Blizzard won't listen unless we voice ourselves loud enough, look what is happening with D3, they really listened the community for Reaper of Souls, implementing almost everything people wanted. | ||
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Malli
Germany138 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On November 01 2013 01:55 DinosaurPoop wrote: Most micro in SC2 is one-dimensional and simply involves how fast you do it (splitting marines against banelings, etc). And is broodwar that different? Both games require incredibly fast and precise movements, the primary difference is that BW throws a fuckton of multitasking and raw mechanical demand on top of that. Doing shit like clickign each building you want to macro from and using all the control groups and having hotkeys placed all over your keyboard in an unhelpful layout and having spellcaster units be hard to control, it's all speed and precision. Just BW overwhelms you with the amount of shit you have to do and due to this amount of shit it helps players stand out more when they win through doing a few actions better then others. You can see this in some players in this game too. You can admire the raw bulldozing power of Innovations 3cc play vs zerg (though he's since moved on to more aggressive 2 base styles, don't blame him), the extreme nature of Maru's MMM vs protoss, the sheer multitask and pressure of MMA, or the tactical positioning and deft medivac attacks of Polt. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
On November 01 2013 02:39 HaN- wrote: Awesome video! This is really depressing to imagine what SC2 could have been.. Blizzard won't listen unless we voice ourselves loud enough, look what is happening with D3, they really listened the community for Reaper of Souls, implementing almost everything people wanted. D3 doesn't have fundamental "issues" with the way the gameplay works. Nothing in RoS will actually change how the engine behaves or the like, which is what's "needed" in SC2. | ||
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
On November 01 2013 01:58 Nirel wrote: I have a feeling that if this video was made before SC2s lunch all of these changes would've been implemented, sadly after 2 expansions I find it very hard to believe they are going to change anything of value with the mechanics. Oh Micro, Where Art Thou? april 2010 by guess who  I’m not saying every change was unwarranted, or that every change was for the worse. Most of us can by now agree on the fact that MBS and unlimited unit selection turned out to be pretty good changes. But the fact of the matter is: we’re constantly settling for less and less without even putting up a real fight. It disgusts me that every time I see someone on these forums bash down on a flaw in the game, all he’s ever met with is the same generic response: “Yes but Starcraft II is a different game, ’other’ types of micro/whatever might show up in the future as it develops and evolves”. Who knows, those arguments might hold true, although I personally doubt they will. We’re entirely missing the point arguing in such a way though. Why in the first place should we be accepting that Starcraft II is regressing in to a more primitive form than its predecessor? Isn’t this, after all, the sequel, as opposed to the prequel? How does Dustin Browder explain the fact that air units in SC2, the sequel, suddenly regressed and lost their ability to maneuver while firing? Is there perhaps a disturbance in the Khala? ok fine, that video was not done at that time but arguments were being made and discussion was being held, to be swept under the rug of MBS. Which was the point Laluch was making back in 2010. And i take a guess turned out to be somewhat true after 3.5 years. super random tidbit: ah lol i clicked on random page in comments and i saw rabiator defending sc2 micro like crazy, something must have changed lol :D | ||
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