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nimdil
Poland3747 Posts
On October 31 2013 23:49 Plexa wrote: That's not true at all and was clarified very recently by Blizz over on reddit. Eh. Actually I'd prefer for Blizzard to let the game evolve itself instead of tinkering with it every 3 years. I never said that they said it was anything but possibility but I didn't know they clarified it. Not that I can bear reddit. Thanks for info. | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
Another thing I don't particularly want is for worker harass to be more difficult to deal with than it already is. That would also probably affect low level players more adversely than any of the other changes (it would be more demoralizing and intimidating compared to losing later, and low level players don't need anything additional discouraging them). However, I'm not sure probe harass could be nearly as OP as in BW, with how shields work in SC2. I really don't see any reason why Blizzard shouldn't implement these changes in LotV. They've becoming increasingly open to hearing the community and even responding well to community feedback, though it's still in Blizzard time. For perspective, I really was not expecting to find myself agreeing with Lalush; I had basically written him off as someone very BM and negative about SC2, but this work he's done (and credit to Decemberscalm) is entirely pro-SC2. The video itself is very well done and easy to understand. I admit I only watched the first 20 minutes, but that was enough. | ||
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Timmsh
Netherlands201 Posts
I really believe you have a point, to increase the consistency of the units in a way that makes sense. Especially for air fighters, but also with the use of moving turrets! Very well done! | ||
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rasers
Sweden691 Posts
On November 01 2013 00:29 Plansix wrote: Wow, you put a lot of thought into that, so thanks? I don't think it really reflects what I said, but you are entitled to your opinion. I was just trying to point out that the 20 minutes of BW porn at the end of the video and the focus on BW seemed a bit misplaced in a thread about bugs and unit behaviors on SC2. Oh really that is your problem? the 20minutes at the end u don'T need to watch after u got all the information? and that is why u go all defensive mode for SC2? | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
Mod needs to get going asap, the problem is now dealing with the custom game system though  so many hurdles......Or get a couple NA pros to do a tournament with the map much like the XMG thing. | ||
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vesicular
United States1310 Posts
People are taking the video way too literally. It is not about "make units just like BW". It is all about "fix the bugs in unit movement to allow more microability". Whether it is changed to be like BW or not is immaterial as long as the skill cap is raised and people are able to show off more impressive engagements that can help result in victory. I mean, the Oracle video showing killing SCV's should have everyone pulling their hair out at how asinine it is. That has nothing to do with any other game and everything to do with SC2 needing to fix its own unit control. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On November 01 2013 01:01 vesicular wrote: I mean, the Oracle video showing killing SCV's should have everyone pulling their hair out at how asinine it is. That has nothing to do with any other game and everything to do with SC2 needing to fix its own unit control. Your post is great, but you misused word 'bug'. Neither of those are bugs. Oracle one is especially just a demonstration of overkill prevention. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On November 01 2013 00:29 Plansix wrote: Wow, you put a lot of thought into that, so thanks? I don't think it really reflects what I said, but you are entitled to your opinion. I was just trying to point out that the 20 minutes of BW porn at the end of the video and the focus on BW seemed a bit misplaced in a thread about bugs and unit behaviors on SC2. It showed what is possible without those "bugs". Honestly mate, you are so far up your own back side with the BW hate and SC2 bashing paranoia that you can't tell when people are actually trying to help the very game you are such a fan boy of. There were threads and post with SC2 bashing and BW >SC2 but this is not one of them. | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
On November 01 2013 01:01 vesicular wrote: I think people are missing the broader points of the vid. If you look at it from a high level, all it is saying is, here are several things in SC2 that make little sense and also contribute to decreased microability. The counter examples from BW are just that, counter examples. They are not a defined way to fix the problem, they are simply a pathway to where things could go. *Could*, not should. People are taking the video way too literally. It is not about "make units just like BW". It is all about "fix the bugs in unit movement to allow more microability". Whether it is changed to be like BW or not is immaterial as long as the skill cap is raised and people are able to show off more impressive engagements that can help result in victory. I mean, the Oracle video showing killing SCV's should have everyone pulling their hair out at how asinine it is. That has nothing to do with any other game and everything to do with SC2 needing to fix its own unit control. Exactly. All of these "defenders" of the legacy of SC2 should be happy as can be because this could be a huge break through and make the game even way better, yet instead now they just bitch and moan saying O they said the Brood War word WAGHHHHH. Or even worse they feel like when we talk about BW were making SC2 feel like a "lesser" game. What is this kindergarten again???????? Did you guys think he was going to go pull videos of insane microabilty from Age of Empires? Derp. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 01 2013 01:06 lolfail9001 wrote: Your post is great, but you misused word 'bug'. Neither of those are bugs. Oracle one is especially just a demonstration of overkill prevention. you could argue that it is a bug cause they dont glide, even if it is cause of the overkill prevention. But yeah, it is just not consistent.. | ||
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( bush
321 Posts
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10bulgares
352 Posts
For me clumped air units make little sense and I like the way it is with the anti clumping mechanism. I see no problems with the oracle "bug". I agree that it is a bit ridiculous how the point damage affect the way units behave. The only delay should be the time taken to reorient the unit to shoot but I don't see why you should make all of these faster. I like the idea about the turrets but why not extend the change to colossus? Why only immortal and tanks? There is a consistency in how the units behave in any case (this is what the video explains, how it works in sc2) so I don't see how as it is micro is hindered. I prefer to judge the changes in how "realistic" the game is. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 01 2013 01:09 Sapphire.lux wrote: It showed what is possible without those "bugs". Honestly mate, you are so far up your own back side with the BW hate and SC2 bashing paranoia that you can't tell when people are actually trying to help the very game you are such a fan boy of. There were threads and post with SC2 bashing and BW >SC2 but this is not one of them. I don't think so and I can be both supportive of the OPs suggestions and critical of the way he presents them. Don't hate BW or have a problem with it. I am so supportive of the OP suggestions that I even tweeted at Blizzards community manager asking if he had seen the thread on reddit about this topic. | ||
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
On November 01 2013 00:08 Ctone23 wrote: This right here seems like the biggest obstacle to the proposed changes. That, as well as latency issues due to the fact that LANs are not possible at the moment. It might be that Blizzard intentionally put the delays the OP is mentioning due to latency issues, but I could be totally wrong, just speculating. Back to the balance issue, should the changes go through, I wonder how much that would change everything? OP please make a custom map gogogogo  Back in WoL i tested unit responsiveness vs computer (no latency) and custom game (battle net latency) and on battle net the drone was noticably less responsive. On "LAN" when i spammed move commands around the drone quickly it would change directions instatenous and on Battle net it was only reacting to every 2nd command (compared to each command of LAN). I don't know how HotS Bnet handles it now. Because there was no that big of a demand to quick small unit micro spam it was never really brought up. But if you suddenly had to patrol micro vs scourge etc LAN talk would be more prevelevent. Now i will go on some cross-esports arguments. In FPS designers like to introduce fake mechanics like default setting of interpolation. Semi-off topic As a CS 1.6 semi-pro player and CS maniac for many years since 1.5 i can tell you that the biggest change i ever felt in gameplay/netcode when the scene switched to 0.01 ex_interp(circa 2004-2005). For a moment i forgot how to play the game. But it amazed me i suddenly became obsessed with retaining my feel for game. This single community driven change enforced everyone who was not pro (and probably some pros too) to "learn how to aim". To describe in game terms, the game became slower, less "full auto" and yet more dynamic (when you consider motion of aiming as dynamism). It also put burden on server hosting because suddenly most servers you played happened to be shitty servers who couldn't maintain "1000FPS" (its not entirely true but generally crap servers). To put it bluntly, from my perspective the game became at least 30-40% harder to master. The level of play shot up drastically among semi-pros (and pub play too). From my knowledge 0.01 was never enforced before that change, and was mostly used on LANs. Now i know Starcraft is not FPS and this is a small stretch but i believe that certain variables should always be on look out. You can see CS plays from 2003 and compare it too 2008 and see a huge skill gap. It was super fun to play on 0.1, the game was fun and all but because of how people imerse into FPS everyone wanted bigger and bigger skill variation. It has nothing to do with elitism it is bound in anyone who ever competed in anything. The exploration, learning and mastery. Fun fact i hated the change when it happened because that change actually gauged all the things i did wrong, i was playing on 60 Hz while i had monitor that could support 120 (setting 0.01 interp basically made everything "jerky" and crappy aesthetically if you didnt get proper amount of refresh rate/fps). Fun times. | ||
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PerryHooter
Sweden268 Posts
On November 01 2013 01:10 ( bush wrote: WE MUST HAVE a tournament with these settings, otherwise this work will be just another big waste of time, we can't just expect Blizzard to read this thread and apply major changes to the game. A tournament might be a little excessive, but some showmatches with pro's playing should be arrangeable at least. A couple of showmatches to showcase how the micro of the game could be changed, another couple with changes to the economic aspect of the game that I've seen discussed (by Lalush and others) etc. Would be super interesting to say the least. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On November 01 2013 00:30 Chaggi wrote: To be fair, a lot of stuff that SC2 does is really cool too. I think Warp Gates are really awesome... just what's the point of Gateways? Are they used at all anymore past a proxy 2 gate? I would love if Warp Gates vs Gateways were a decision that Protoss could make on the fly and require some type of thinking, rather than just make that. It's things like that in SC2 that makes me confused, give more downside to things and make people make decisions. Regular gateways would have to give a tremendous advantage over warpgates for them to be used over warpgates, warp in has so many advantages something as simple as faster production is not enough and that's not even considering proxy gateway situations. The only one I can really think of would be rebalancing gateway units so they're normal priced if you make them from a regular gateway but cost more to be warped in, and that would require a massive rebalancing of the race as a whole. | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On November 01 2013 01:09 XXXSmOke wrote: Exactly. All of these "defenders" of the legacy of SC2 should be happy as can be because this could be a huge break through and make the game even way better, yet instead now they just bitch and moan saying O they said the Brood War word WAGHHHHH. Or even worse they feel like when we talk about BW were making SC2 feel like a "lesser" game. What is this kindergarten again???????? Did you guys think he was going to go pull videos of insane microabilty from Age of Empires? Derp. Well Age of empires 2 has more micro than SC2 (if you take out the the abbilities/spells). | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On November 01 2013 01:43 NukeD wrote: Well Age of empires 2 has more micro than SC2 (if you take out the the abbilities/spells). Move and attack command are abilities too. If you take away abilities from SC, BW won't have micro either :D | ||
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NightOfTheDead
Lithuania1711 Posts
On November 01 2013 01:10 ( bush wrote: WE MUST HAVE a tournament with these settings, otherwise this work will be just another big waste of time, we can't just expect Blizzard to read this thread and apply major changes to the game. Yes because all players will be extremely happy with sweeping changes before tournament.. | ||
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