EPTStill Blizzard, not quite EA (yet).
Depth of Micro - Page 17
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
Still Blizzard, not quite EA (yet). | ||
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
I think for most of the air units it would help a little, but not a lot. The exception to this would be the viking, which I think if you implemented this wholesale, would break it, with its massive range and decent burst damage. You would have to basically redesign the unit around this, and it would be tough for lower level players to use. I think the turret issues are the biggest thing, and something I noticed as well. It's like they made this whole turret feature, but it has hardly any effect. Immortals have this whole rotating turret that locks on targets, but only when they are told to attack. And it can't rotate very far. It almost seems like they put it in there to "look cool," but it could do more than that. It would especially help things like hellions and tanks. | ||
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Dingodile
4139 Posts
I am wondering if siege tanks with tracking turrets are too strong vs banelings. | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On November 01 2013 05:22 Waxangel wrote: I like how your icon is the dumbest fucking unit in brood war that takes the most coaxing and effort to get to work effectively EDIT: im stupid | ||
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dinosrwar
1290 Posts
On November 01 2013 06:01 Dingodile wrote: yo, air units in sc2 have so an incredibly boring movements. I am wondering if siege tanks with tracking turrets are too strong vs banelings. The problem is SC2 units were designed with sluggish movements in mind. I attribute this to Browder's Red Alert background and the stance of more awesome stuff, instead of a focus on what made BW a great esport. Looking at the video, Vikings would kite Corruptors to death every time. Tanks and Immortals would kite too well. Can you imagine immortals v ultras? A lot of hard counters would be definite hard counters. If the Colossi had turrets that were tank turrets, everything would die. There are too many SC2 units than are high dmg / high mobility. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On November 01 2013 03:57 Elldar wrote: He didn't say that every air unit should have 0 firing delay. He said that every basic air unit should had 0 fire delay and they fire delay should be for special attacks. Did you even understand what he meant with 'hover unit'? Essentially an air unit with ground pathing. The reason why these changes should be made is because it would make the units more responsive to your clicks hence more microable. Making the players able to more freely control their units can not be a bad thing. Opening up more posibilities for players to branch out can not be a bad thing. Not every battle in bw was won with impecceable micro but you could win with micro. Micro often could give you an advantage in bw just go watch the added clips. And why should every basic air unit have 0 firing delay, but not every air unit? Why not every ground unit? It is a completely random decission. If you make thors rotate and shoot instantly it also adds more micro possibilities. If you then add blink to thors you have even more micro. Where is your god now? Blink thors... It is a way too easy way out that is used here (not only by you, by many others), where it is pretty much said that because it allows for more micro, it is better. Well then your kite vikings may meat my blink thors. With fungal. Now I am sure you say I am trolling. Okay you got a small point. But my point still stands, it is easy to add more micro to the game. That doesn't means it makes the game better. Regarding the BW clips, as someone who never played it, those things don't mean anything to me. I can barely distinguish a siege tank. They mainly hurt my eyes. | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On November 01 2013 07:01 NukeD wrote: ^thats why you add micro while using your brain. And that's why I don't consider 'BW had it' a sufficient argument to add it to only a specific group of units which happen to be the same group as which had it in BW. Not in the least because I don't get how it isn't completely obvious to everyone that the proposed changes (not just to air, also to ground) create huge balance issues. You could do it, but then you need to redesign a whole bunch of units. And that really is lacking in the analysis of this idea. | ||
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JiYan
United States3668 Posts
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
It really saddens me that all you got from the video and the thread is the "BW had it" made up argument. If you think we really want and are expressing that, then you obviously think of us as imbeciles. Is it possible for you to imagine how this would be a good thing for the game? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On November 01 2013 07:01 Sissors wrote: And why should every basic air unit have 0 firing delay, but not every air unit? Why not every ground unit? It is a completely random decission. If you make thors rotate and shoot instantly it also adds more micro possibilities. If you then add blink to thors you have even more micro. Where is your god now? Blink thors... It is a way too easy way out that is used here (not only by you, by many others), where it is pretty much said that because it allows for more micro, it is better. Well then your kite vikings may meat my blink thors. With fungal. Now I am sure you say I am trolling. Okay you got a small point. But my point still stands, it is easy to add more micro to the game. That doesn't means it makes the game better. Regarding the BW clips, as someone who never played it, those things don't mean anything to me. I can barely distinguish a siege tank. They mainly hurt my eyes. The game should be balanced around microable units instead of making units so strong by them selves that we need to make them unmicroable. | ||
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webas
75 Posts
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Miragee
8660 Posts
On November 01 2013 07:01 Sissors wrote: And why should every basic air unit have 0 firing delay, but not every air unit? Why not every ground unit? It is a completely random decission. If you make thors rotate and shoot instantly it also adds more micro possibilities. If you then add blink to thors you have even more micro. Where is your god now? Blink thors... It is a way too easy way out that is used here (not only by you, by many others), where it is pretty much said that because it allows for more micro, it is better. Well then your kite vikings may meat my blink thors. With fungal. Now I am sure you say I am trolling. Okay you got a small point. But my point still stands, it is easy to add more micro to the game. That doesn't means it makes the game better. Regarding the BW clips, as someone who never played it, those things don't mean anything to me. I can barely distinguish a siege tank. They mainly hurt my eyes. Adding new skills is completly different from adding responsebility and relyability to units. You are right on the balance: It will change. However, I don't see how this is bad. Balance Patches also change the balance and often times not for good. If you change game mechanics to improve the overall game you can tweak numbers later, if necessary. Regarding your note on the BW clips: That's something I never understood. Graphic fanatics in an esport game. I don't understand how it hurts your eyes. It's actually more clean than sc2 btw. because of lesser special effects. | ||
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
On October 31 2013 09:09 Plansix wrote: I wouldn't call the communities habit of fawning over BW like the second comings as truth. Its an amazing game, but the habit of a set group within SC2 community that loves to shit on the game isn't really an indicator of fact. As a SC2 player who tried out BW for a while, it completely blows SC2 out of the water in many respects. Don't get me wrong, it has some problems that SC2 doesn't, but in general, BW holds a huge advantage over SC2. That said, it doesn't make it right to take a massive shit on Starcraft 2 and all the players, tournaments and fans. I really dislike the people that can't stop attacking SC2 in plain view of its fans. It's rude and pointless. Criticism like this is ok, though. There's a difference between building awareness and spamming insults. | ||
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
On November 01 2013 07:16 Sissors wrote: And that's why I don't consider 'BW had it' a sufficient argument to add it to only a specific group of units which happen to be the same group as which had it in BW. Not in the least because I don't get how it isn't completely obvious to everyone that the proposed changes (not just to air, also to ground) create huge balance issues. You could do it, but then you need to redesign a whole bunch of units. And that really is lacking in the analysis of this idea. I agree, we need to stop demanding things from blizzard, scrap the whole idea, it was silly. Lalush should think of ideas that not need additional work to implement, it was really silly from him. | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
On November 01 2013 07:16 Sissors wrote: And that's why I don't consider 'BW had it' a sufficient argument to add it to only a specific group of units which happen to be the same group as which had it in BW. Not in the least because I don't get how it isn't completely obvious to everyone that the proposed changes (not just to air, also to ground) create huge balance issues. You could do it, but then you need to redesign a whole bunch of units. And that really is lacking in the analysis of this idea. How could you possibly expect someone to propose balance changes for a fundamental game design change on a colossal scale? There's just no point, no one is smart enough to just belt out changes that will work. It would take months of iterative design changes done by a collaboration of minds for anything resembling balance to happen. Honestly, stuff like this won't happen in SC2, nor should we expect it to. Blizz has set a precedent, they can't renege on their own standards. They stubbornly refused to do this before, they will refuse to do it again. Whether or not it would be beneficial for the game is irrelevant. As for why flying units should have a good moving shot, it's because it is infinitely more fun and allows for far more micro. Which ground units should have moving shot is debatable, something like a colossus would be ridiculous if it could have moving shot. It'd need to be nerfed into the ground. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On November 01 2013 07:48 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: As a SC2 player who tried out BW for a while, it completely blows SC2 out of the water in many respects. Don't get me wrong, it has some problems that SC2 doesn't, but in general, BW holds a huge advantage over SC2. That said, it doesn't make it right to take a massive !@#$%^&* on Starcraft 2 and all the players, tournaments and fans. I really dislike the people that can't stop attacking SC2 in plain view of its fans. It's rude and pointless. Criticism like this is ok, though. There's a difference between building awareness and spamming insults. I still think that micro-tricks like Lalush points out in this video are less important to implement than getting rid of turtly/deathballish play. For instance mech in BW wasn't particularly microful (for casual observers at least), and it could still provide a lot of entertaining as you could actually be aggressive with mech in BW unlike in Sc2. Blizzard, however, seems like they have no clue how to change incentivies (to reward aggressive play). | ||
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SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
But honestly . . When are we, as a community, going to acknowledge that the decision makers of Starcraft: A) Have ego's the size of miniature Death Star's B) Aren't invested in pleasing the SC2 community C) Maintain a long track record of taking the exact opposite of rational, logical steps to progress the game D) Will not implement any of the suggested changes under any circumstances (you could point a gun to their head, literally, and they'd rather die than admit they made any mistakes on this game) Evidence: after having all these years to make such simple changes to make the game infinitely better, don't you think Kim & Browder would have done this by now? Has the community not suggested stuff like this for years? Do you really think they are trying to make the game better? The definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". The people who made and maintain Starcraft 2 are not insane. They simply don't give a shit and won't admit that they're wrong. They aren't repeating and continuing things because they expect different results - they're doing it because they expect the exact same results. | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
On November 01 2013 07:55 Hider wrote: I still think that micro-tricks like Lalush points out in this video is a smaller overall issue than getting rid of turtly/deathballish play. For instance mech in BW wasn't particularly microful (for casual observers at least), and it could still provide a lot of entertaining as you could actually be aggressive with mech in BW unlike in Sc2. Yeah, even with awesome micro, our amazing pathing takes away the possibility of small forces being capable of defeating larger ones, which was absolutely critical for the across-the-map engagements BW had. Too bad one of the only ways one can accomplish this is by dumbing down pathing, which is such a negative idea in people's minds these days. | ||
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