Depth of Micro - Page 19

On November 01 2013 09:04 Plansix wrote:

I am just more weirded out by the fact that I conceded the argument, said that it would be a good idea if Blizzard saw the video, I would like to see Thors and other units with turrets be able to use said turrets and he still insulted me and said I lost all credibility. I really don't know what else he wanted.

On October 31 2013 08:58 Plansix wrote:

I know, I watched a good chunk of it and it is well done. I am just bracing for the "BW = Perfect, Blizzard ruined legacy, SC2 inferior game" circle jerk that will take place soon. Its a good topic, but it tends to bring out the least fun parts of the "community".

On November 01 2013 09:18 BisuDagger wrote:

18 pages in and you're still going....



You complain about comparing BW to SC2 when you are the one who lit this fire. And what's worse you keep on arguing in this thread. Stop trying to ruin a damn good OP with your drama. The arguing in this thread about BW vs SC2 actually wouldn't have happened if you didn't say anything. It's like saying everytime I see my brother there is a good chance we are going to fight. So I might as well punch him in the face first. Sometimes we don't recognize that we are the problem. When you see someone posting BW elitist comments (cause SC2 forums are just flooded with BW purist) just ignore them and keep the thread on topic. Instead you just offend people like me who still give SC2 a chance even though I'm a die hard BW fan.

On November 01 2013 08:20 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
Can't believe the community is so much in favor of Lalush's arguments in this video, or why this is getting so much attention in the first place.

Okay, I know it, it's because all these kind of anti-Sc2 / pro-BW mechanic videos do this.

Video production was okay-ish although there's never an excuse to talk like you're about to fall asleep. Neither does it make much sense to have a 45min video if you actually on cover 18mins of the topic your discussing.

Anyways, my actual problem is the argumentation which seems to be lacking severely. Especially in regards to the whole damage point issue.

The only real argument, other than "in BW it's like this!" is his eSports idea; everything must be "Reliable, consistent and responsive" according to Lalush.

I don't see how differentiating damage point values aren't.

Reliable: They are, the damage point values have a fixed time. There's nothing randomized about it (or what there is negligible).

Consistent: Yes, it actually is consistent unless you want to look at it in a way where you can dismantle pretty much all Sc2 unit attributes. All vikings, marines etc. have the damage point of their unit type. Of course, they do not all have the same attack point across all unit types, but why should they? To remove unique behavior and micro mechanics? Not all units share the same movement speed, acceleration and whatever else. That's on purpose and not really an inconsistency.

Responsive: A clear yes to that as well. The attack point in itself is obviously a delay value, however as seen with the Vikings, they still immediately respond to an attack command and acquire targets and basically count down their attack point timing. It's not like your unit doesn't actually respond to what you do.

Of course you can look at these aspects in extreme ways and say that damage points don't fit the requirements, but then, what does.

The demonstrations in the video weren't very convincing either. So now I could easily kill a billion Corrupters with just a couple Vikings because Vikings now behave more similarly to Marines and Stutter-Step-Micro becomes EASIER and WAY MORE POWERFUL. You cannot mess it up any longer, after all you can't accidentally move your Vikings before they reached their damage point. So how do you compensate for that? For removing pretty much all units higher damage points to make em "more responsive" and whatnot?

But worse, why would I want more units to behave more and ultimately be microed more like e.g. Marines? Why isn't it okay that tanks aren't killing dozens of Roaches when retreating, why do they need to have these kind of turret mechanics? Because BW had it and it's kinda neat?

It's not even that I would disagree with this in all regards, perhaps e.g. Immortals could be made more unique by giving them that kind of turret firing attributes (while compensating in other ways). But in general I don't like the idea of vastly reducing certain stats like attack point and overall just having less options for unique unit behavior.

Why do Banshee's and Vikings have to have a super easy time kiting even the largest armies of Marines or Corruptors respectively? You say it's better for eSports but I don't see that. What I see is Banshee's now behaving like Marines and rather reducing the kind of Marine vs Banshee shenanigans that exist right now.

I simply don't feel like Lalush used good enough argumentation.

That the bigger TeamLiquid and especially /r/reddit crowd immediately wants Blizzard to hire everyone that makes videos or posts like this though, that's just worth a good laugh by now. That "Warcraft RTS: Alliance and Horde" mod being another example where people immediately go crazy after because it appears to be huge.