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On October 29 2013 06:35 Snusmumriken wrote:
lol you guys are fucking ridiculous. 14 pages over a twitterjoke, and not one single coherent argument as to why this would be a bad thing.
jesus.
Just wondering but how do you know its a joke? I have yet to see Naniwa say 1 joking thing since he is either BM or super serious. If he now decided to start joking, very inappropriate time.
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On October 29 2013 03:38 Waise wrote:
it's probably a joke, but it's still inappropriate. you just can't have participants throwing around prize pools to other participants, the reasons should be obvious
it will probably fly in sc2 because esports isn't serious enough yet, but in any major real sport this would be absolutely grounds for fines/suspensions/etc
You guys are just being silly. It happens in sports all the time. I remember when a Calgary NHL (hockey) player got traded to Edmonton who were soon playing against the team that Calgary was neck and neck with. There were all sorts "we'll buy you a meal, hooker, car (the last couple in jest) if you beat them" tweets and stuff from the Calgary guys. Long as you're asking people to do what they'd be doing anyway (trying to win) then it really doesn't affect anything. Sure, five hundred might be a bit much but it's entirely different from the opposite: asking someone to throw games. I think it's awesome.
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On October 29 2013 06:40 InvictusRage wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:35 G-Dy wrote:On October 29 2013 06:07 Plansix wrote:On October 29 2013 06:03 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote:On October 29 2013 05:53 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 05:51 Plansix wrote:On October 29 2013 05:46 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 05:33 awesomoecalypse wrote:On October 29 2013 05:30 Plansix wrote:
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Oh man, someone needs to break it to this guy that players do not play as hard when there is nothing on the line. It has been that way for all of time. He seems to understand that, but for some reason believes that because Revival was fairly successful earlier in the year, he is entitled to opponent who won't try hard, and Naninwa giving said opponents a reason to try is somehow unfair to Revival. No, I don't understand it either. Nobody does. But that seems to be his stance. except for the multiple posts (i think 3 now) where i literally explicitly said "i do not think revival is entitled to players who aren't trying hard"? one of them i'm pretty sure was actually directed at you it's fine if you disagree with me, but if you aren't even going to read my posts it's probably better for the thread that we don't continue arguing. if you're not listening to me, my replies to you might as well be meme spam So now there is $500 on the line, who cares? Is Naniwa bad because he decided to throw a little money around? I fail to see why any of this matters? And yes, I read your posts and I still don't see why it matters. if you read my posts then surely you can point to a more specific part of my argument you don't understand. saying "i don't get it" doesn't help me. what do you want me to do? re-write everything i already wrote? speak a different language? not trying to be rude but i don't understand how to reply to posts where people basically say things like "no. you're wrong and dumb. you're trolling. you must hate naniwa". what does a guy have to do to get the benefit of the doubt around here? No, I think you should answer my questions. Why is this bad? Will it negatively impact the match? How will is cause the match to be unfair? Beyond some weird ethical argument that players shouldn't be offering money to win games, how is this going to make anything worse in any way that is measurable? i have made multiple posts which directly address your questions. i would go back and re-quote them if not for the fact that you specifically claimed to have read all of them. i mean, come on, man. people have asked me questions more specific than yours and i gave them detailed answers. tell me what's wrong with my answers or i don't see why i owe you any better ones I read your posts and they were not clear enough for me to get a good idea why this would be bad. I need you to nail it down for me. How will the offer of $500 going to negatively impact Revivals matchs? How is it a bad thing? I need clear reasons, not analogies. His opponents were maybe training against opponents A, B and C. Improving their vT, vZ and vP matchup on all maps. Now they might consider training specific against revival, maybe even inventing specific cheese strategies and ignoring the other matches. In general, beating revival might be of more importance to them then showing a good performance / trying to win the tournament for no other reason but naniwa.Of course, if it would be a showmatch (1v1) or the finals then it would not matter. Btw., i don't mind what Naniwa was doing (as long as it is not the norm) - i like the entertainment factor here. Just wanted to explain this, since Waise kinda drifts in weird maphack arguments and stuff... Ah. This is a good argument. If Naniwa changes things so that they'd prefer to lose the group but beat Naniwa, that would be bad.
Wait--players are so greedy for money that they'd rather play worse for $500 than play better to win the whole thing?
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On October 29 2013 06:41 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:35 Snusmumriken wrote:
lol you guys are fucking ridiculous. 14 pages over a twitterjoke, and not one single coherent argument as to why this would be a bad thing.
jesus. Just wondering but how do you know its a joke? I have yet to see Naniwa say 1 joking thing since he is either BM or super serious. If he now decided to start joking, very inappropriate time.
read the last part? There hasn't been one single coherent argument as to why it would be a bad thing if he's serious.
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On October 29 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
You literally don't like the idea of good things being done because the perpetrator of said good thing is getting paid.
no, i never said this, nor do i believe it. this is your confusion; you are not correct about what my opinions are.
if you want to tell me that the miscommunication is my fault and that i have poor language skills, feel free to do that. if there's a miscommunication i will try to clarify it, which is what i was doing. you seem to be turning it into some kind of competition about who spoke "correctly," and that's not something i'm interested in. you want to be correct? fine, you are correct, the miscommunication is my fault. but that still doesn't mean that you were ever accurately interpreting my beliefs
On October 29 2013 06:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +it's unfun because i no longer identify with the players' drive to succeed and show high performance for the sake of good-spirited competition. in that scenario i see the players "motivation"/performance as a result of a cash agreement All prize money is a cash agreement... Unless you're arguing against the existing of money in all competitions?
i assumed context would make it obvious that "cash agreement" was shorthand for "cash agreement between competitors rather than between the organizer and the placers". maybe it didn't.
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On October 29 2013 06:44 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:41 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:35 Snusmumriken wrote:
lol you guys are fucking ridiculous. 14 pages over a twitterjoke, and not one single coherent argument as to why this would be a bad thing.
jesus. Just wondering but how do you know its a joke? I have yet to see Naniwa say 1 joking thing since he is either BM or super serious. If he now decided to start joking, very inappropriate time. read the last part? There hasn't been one single coherent argument as to why it would be a bad thing if he's serious.
That was not my point.
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On October 29 2013 06:45 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
You literally don't like the idea of good things being done because the perpetrator of said good thing is getting paid. no, i never said this, nor do i believe it. this is your confusion; you are not correct about what my opinions are. if you want to tell me that the miscommunication is my fault and that i have poor language skills, feel free to do that. if there's a miscommunication i will try to clarify it, which is what i was doing. you seem to be turning it into some kind of competition about who spoke "correctly," and that's not something i'm interested in. you want to be correct? fine, you are correct, the miscommunication is my fault. but that still doesn't mean that you were ever accurately interpreting my beliefs Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:it's unfun because i no longer identify with the players' drive to succeed and show high performance for the sake of good-spirited competition. in that scenario i see the players "motivation"/performance as a result of a cash agreement All prize money is a cash agreement... Unless you're arguing against the existing of money in all competitions? i assumed context would make it obvious that "cash agreement" was shorthand for "cash agreement between competitors rather than between the organizer and the placers". maybe it didn't.
So if you don't mind people getting paid to do good things, then what is your problem with Naniwa jokingly commenting about paying people to do good things/compete harder?
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On October 29 2013 06:33 SmoKim wrote:
14 pages because of a tweet?
It's offical: Naniwa is the new IdrA
Is that really how we're going to measure a player's popularity? Come on now. -.- Naniwa is Naniwa.
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On October 29 2013 06:47 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:44 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:41 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:35 Snusmumriken wrote:
lol you guys are fucking ridiculous. 14 pages over a twitterjoke, and not one single coherent argument as to why this would be a bad thing.
jesus. Just wondering but how do you know its a joke? I have yet to see Naniwa say 1 joking thing since he is either BM or super serious. If he now decided to start joking, very inappropriate time. read the last part? There hasn't been one single coherent argument as to why it would be a bad thing if he's serious. That was not my point.
Did you even have a point? Naniwa pretty much trolls 24/7 on his twitter, so for you to say hes either superserious or bm means you have no fucking clue what youre talking about.
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Whoot! Sc2 Drama-mongering!
Has anyone emailed the sponsors yet? Demanded Blizzard boot Naniwa from WCS? Get EG to kick Naniwa from Alliance?
C'mon TL, your pitchforks are getting rusty.
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United States23455 Posts
On October 29 2013 06:32 Valikyr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:31 Darkhoarse wrote:I realize that Naniwa is probably joking, but it is a little sketchy to do that haha. Plus, if I was playing Revival I would know Naniwa gets 5k with no wins if I beat Revival and I'd ask for a bit more  . All joking aside, I don't really like this. Why? Giving players additional incentive to play good is not so bad, is it? If he would pay Revival to lose though, that's another matter.
I think having the players have incentive should be the case. HOWEVER that is Blizzard's job. They need to pay people for winning their challenger matches, considering they do not seed for premier next year and therefore people lose motivation. I understand Naniwa's reasoning, but he shouldn't have to do this, Blizzard should.
I know this isn't actually what's happening, but if this did go down I'd feel like Naniwa paid to get into Blizzcon WHICH IS NOT THE CASE but it would just feel weird to me. I dunno maybe I'm the minority. And I don't condemn Naniwa or anything.
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On October 29 2013 06:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:45 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
You literally don't like the idea of good things being done because the perpetrator of said good thing is getting paid. no, i never said this, nor do i believe it. this is your confusion; you are not correct about what my opinions are. if you want to tell me that the miscommunication is my fault and that i have poor language skills, feel free to do that. if there's a miscommunication i will try to clarify it, which is what i was doing. you seem to be turning it into some kind of competition about who spoke "correctly," and that's not something i'm interested in. you want to be correct? fine, you are correct, the miscommunication is my fault. but that still doesn't mean that you were ever accurately interpreting my beliefs On October 29 2013 06:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:it's unfun because i no longer identify with the players' drive to succeed and show high performance for the sake of good-spirited competition. in that scenario i see the players "motivation"/performance as a result of a cash agreement All prize money is a cash agreement... Unless you're arguing against the existing of money in all competitions? i assumed context would make it obvious that "cash agreement" was shorthand for "cash agreement between competitors rather than between the organizer and the placers". maybe it didn't. So if you don't mind people getting paid to do good things, then what is your problem with Naniwa jokingly commenting about paying people to do good things/compete harder?
first, the premise of this argument is based on other people apparently believing he was serious. if it was a joke then obviously who cares? but there are people sincerely saying "i think he's serious/even if he's serious i think it's cool/good/ok," which is what i'm arguing against
as for what my problem is... i'm reaching a point of not knowing what else to say again. i believe it sets a negative precedent for the way tournaments should be conducted. as a fan, i enjoy tournaments that are conducted with standards of professionalism based on my personal beliefs and preferences. that's why i think it's bad. i do not want players to pay each other for their performance in tournaments. i think that's blizzard's responsibility to do and anything else is tampering with what i consider the purpose of a tournament: to determine the player who is most skilled and most dedicated to refining his or her skill
if someone doesn't want to practice until naniwa gives them money, i don't think they are the deserving party.
if we are going to talk about challenger players not having enough incentive because of WCS structure, that's entirely different and i would even grant it to you. the system probably needs to change. but naniwa screwing with the prize pool isn't a solution to that problem any more than shooting cops would solve a corrupt precinct
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......Its amazing how people freak out about this so much. So hes trying to spice up the blandness that SC2 has become. So many people turn into complaining bitches its unreal
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On October 29 2013 06:52 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:32 Valikyr wrote:On October 29 2013 06:31 Darkhoarse wrote:I realize that Naniwa is probably joking, but it is a little sketchy to do that haha. Plus, if I was playing Revival I would know Naniwa gets 5k with no wins if I beat Revival and I'd ask for a bit more . All joking aside, I don't really like this. Why? Giving players additional incentive to play good is not so bad, is it? If he would pay Revival to lose though, that's another matter. I think having the players have incentive should be the case. HOWEVER that is Blizzard's job. They need to pay people for winning their challenger matches, considering they do not seed for premier next year and therefore people lose motivation. I understand Naniwa's reasoning, but he shouldn't have to do this, Blizzard should. I know this isn't actually what's happening, but if this did go down I'd feel like Naniwa paid to get into Blizzcon WHICH IS NOT THE CASE but it would just feel weird to me. I dunno maybe I'm the minority. And I don't condemn Naniwa or anything.
This is what I'm not understanding. How is Naniwa raising the stakes him buying his way in?
Unless he pays Revival to punt the match, everyone should already be trying to win. What does it change?
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On October 29 2013 06:50 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:47 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:44 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:41 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:35 Snusmumriken wrote:
lol you guys are fucking ridiculous. 14 pages over a twitterjoke, and not one single coherent argument as to why this would be a bad thing.
jesus. Just wondering but how do you know its a joke? I have yet to see Naniwa say 1 joking thing since he is either BM or super serious. If he now decided to start joking, very inappropriate time. read the last part? There hasn't been one single coherent argument as to why it would be a bad thing if he's serious. That was not my point. Did you even have a point? Naniwa pretty much trolls 24/7 on his twitter, so for you to say hes either superserious or bm means you have no fucking clue what youre talking about.
Well i am curious, too. How do you know it is a joke? Just guessing or did naniwa say so?
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On October 29 2013 06:55 G-Dy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:50 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:47 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:44 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:41 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:35 Snusmumriken wrote:
lol you guys are fucking ridiculous. 14 pages over a twitterjoke, and not one single coherent argument as to why this would be a bad thing.
jesus. Just wondering but how do you know its a joke? I have yet to see Naniwa say 1 joking thing since he is either BM or super serious. If he now decided to start joking, very inappropriate time. read the last part? There hasn't been one single coherent argument as to why it would be a bad thing if he's serious. That was not my point. Did you even have a point? Naniwa pretty much trolls 24/7 on his twitter, so for you to say hes either superserious or bm means you have no fucking clue what youre talking about. Well i am curious, too. How do you know it is a joke? Just guessing or did naniwa say so?
Because backroom deals are usually done in the back room, not on twitter.
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On October 29 2013 06:53 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:45 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
You literally don't like the idea of good things being done because the perpetrator of said good thing is getting paid. no, i never said this, nor do i believe it. this is your confusion; you are not correct about what my opinions are. if you want to tell me that the miscommunication is my fault and that i have poor language skills, feel free to do that. if there's a miscommunication i will try to clarify it, which is what i was doing. you seem to be turning it into some kind of competition about who spoke "correctly," and that's not something i'm interested in. you want to be correct? fine, you are correct, the miscommunication is my fault. but that still doesn't mean that you were ever accurately interpreting my beliefs On October 29 2013 06:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:it's unfun because i no longer identify with the players' drive to succeed and show high performance for the sake of good-spirited competition. in that scenario i see the players "motivation"/performance as a result of a cash agreement All prize money is a cash agreement... Unless you're arguing against the existing of money in all competitions? i assumed context would make it obvious that "cash agreement" was shorthand for "cash agreement between competitors rather than between the organizer and the placers". maybe it didn't. So if you don't mind people getting paid to do good things, then what is your problem with Naniwa jokingly commenting about paying people to do good things/compete harder? first, the premise of this argument is based on other people apparently believing he was serious. if it was a joke then obviously who cares? but there are people sincerely saying "i think he's serious/even if he's serious i think it's cool/good/ok," which is what i'm arguing against as for what my problem is... i'm reaching a point of not knowing what else to say again. i believe it sets a negative precedent for the way tournaments should be conducted. as a fan, i enjoy tournaments that are conducted with standards of professionalism based on my personal beliefs and preferences. that's why i think it's bad. i do not want players to pay each other for their performance in tournaments. i think that's blizzard's responsibility to do and anything else is tampering with what i consider the purpose of a tournament: to determine the player who is most skilled and most dedicated to refining his or her skill if someone doesn't want to practice until naniwa gives them money, i don't think they are the deserving party. if we are going to talk about challenger players not having enough incentive because of WCS structure, that's entirely different and i would even grant it to you. the system probably needs to change. but naniwa screwing with the prize pool isn't a solution to that problem any more than shooting cops would solve a corrupt precinct
But if somebody doesn't want to practice until blizzard gives them money, then its ok?
Your analogy falters by the way. An appropriate analogy would be if a private person stepped in and payed cops because they were underpayed and thus didn't do their jobs correctly. While the problem lies with the state (blizzard) not doing their job, the private person stepping in (naniwa) and possibly increasing the quality of investigations (games) is somehow a bad thing in your world. Woe is me, you make no sense.
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On October 29 2013 06:41 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:35 Snusmumriken wrote:
lol you guys are fucking ridiculous. 14 pages over a twitterjoke, and not one single coherent argument as to why this would be a bad thing.
jesus. Just wondering but how do you know its a joke? I have yet to see Naniwa say 1 joking thing since he is either BM or super serious. If he now decided to start joking, very inappropriate time.
Oh come on naniwa has always been a troll. This community on the other hand can be ridiculously serious about things which I think is one of the really off-putting tendencies that drove a lot of people away from sc2.
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EPT
