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I hope it's not a joke. It's pretty awesome and a good move for the tournament, helps building hype and create a rivalry/story.
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On October 29 2013 06:59 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:41 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:35 Snusmumriken wrote:
lol you guys are fucking ridiculous. 14 pages over a twitterjoke, and not one single coherent argument as to why this would be a bad thing.
jesus. Just wondering but how do you know its a joke? I have yet to see Naniwa say 1 joking thing since he is either BM or super serious. If he now decided to start joking, very inappropriate time. Oh come on naniwa has always been a troll. This community on the other hand can be ridiculously serious about things which I think is one of the really off-putting tendencies that drove a lot of people away from sc2.
To be fair, I actually do not see much pitchforking here.
The thing is, it would be somehow cooler if Naniwa would be crazy badass enough to be serious here.
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United States23455 Posts
On October 29 2013 06:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:52 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 29 2013 06:32 Valikyr wrote:On October 29 2013 06:31 Darkhoarse wrote:I realize that Naniwa is probably joking, but it is a little sketchy to do that haha. Plus, if I was playing Revival I would know Naniwa gets 5k with no wins if I beat Revival and I'd ask for a bit more  . All joking aside, I don't really like this. Why? Giving players additional incentive to play good is not so bad, is it? If he would pay Revival to lose though, that's another matter. I think having the players have incentive should be the case. HOWEVER that is Blizzard's job. They need to pay people for winning their challenger matches, considering they do not seed for premier next year and therefore people lose motivation. I understand Naniwa's reasoning, but he shouldn't have to do this, Blizzard should. I know this isn't actually what's happening, but if this did go down I'd feel like Naniwa paid to get into Blizzcon WHICH IS NOT THE CASE but it would just feel weird to me. I dunno maybe I'm the minority. And I don't condemn Naniwa or anything. This is what I'm not understanding. How is Naniwa raising the stakes him buying his way in? Unless he pays Revival to punt the match, everyone should already be trying to win. What does it change?
That's just a dumb feeling I have it's not actually happening I dunno I just don't like the feel of it. Naniwa isn't doing anything wrong, and the stakes should be raised, but I don't think a third party with a vested interest in the outcome should be doing it. Blizzard should make sure there is adequate incentive to play your best and try to win.
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On October 29 2013 07:01 Salteador Neo wrote:
I hope it's not a joke. It's pretty awesome and a good move for the tournament, helps building hype and create a rivalry/story.
Even if its a joke it still creates a story. Now its Revival's turn to zing Naniwa.
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On October 29 2013 06:58 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:53 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:45 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
You literally don't like the idea of good things being done because the perpetrator of said good thing is getting paid. no, i never said this, nor do i believe it. this is your confusion; you are not correct about what my opinions are. if you want to tell me that the miscommunication is my fault and that i have poor language skills, feel free to do that. if there's a miscommunication i will try to clarify it, which is what i was doing. you seem to be turning it into some kind of competition about who spoke "correctly," and that's not something i'm interested in. you want to be correct? fine, you are correct, the miscommunication is my fault. but that still doesn't mean that you were ever accurately interpreting my beliefs On October 29 2013 06:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:it's unfun because i no longer identify with the players' drive to succeed and show high performance for the sake of good-spirited competition. in that scenario i see the players "motivation"/performance as a result of a cash agreement All prize money is a cash agreement... Unless you're arguing against the existing of money in all competitions? i assumed context would make it obvious that "cash agreement" was shorthand for "cash agreement between competitors rather than between the organizer and the placers". maybe it didn't. So if you don't mind people getting paid to do good things, then what is your problem with Naniwa jokingly commenting about paying people to do good things/compete harder? first, the premise of this argument is based on other people apparently believing he was serious. if it was a joke then obviously who cares? but there are people sincerely saying "i think he's serious/even if he's serious i think it's cool/good/ok," which is what i'm arguing against as for what my problem is... i'm reaching a point of not knowing what else to say again. i believe it sets a negative precedent for the way tournaments should be conducted. as a fan, i enjoy tournaments that are conducted with standards of professionalism based on my personal beliefs and preferences. that's why i think it's bad. i do not want players to pay each other for their performance in tournaments. i think that's blizzard's responsibility to do and anything else is tampering with what i consider the purpose of a tournament: to determine the player who is most skilled and most dedicated to refining his or her skill if someone doesn't want to practice until naniwa gives them money, i don't think they are the deserving party. if we are going to talk about challenger players not having enough incentive because of WCS structure, that's entirely different and i would even grant it to you. the system probably needs to change. but naniwa screwing with the prize pool isn't a solution to that problem any more than shooting cops would solve a corrupt precinct But if somebody doesn't want to practice until blizzard gives them money, then its ok? Your analogy falters by the way. An appropriate analogy would be if a private person stepped in and payed cops because they were underpayed and thus didn't do their jobs correctly. While the problem lies with the state (blizzard) not doing their job, the private person stepping in (naniwa) and possibly increasing the quality of investigations (games) is somehow a bad thing in your world. Woe is me, you make no sense.
no, i don't think that way either. i don't generally cheer for players who admit or are widely believed to be in the game just to make a living. but as i've said before, i acknowledge that certain things are avoidable and other things are unavoidable. in another post i said that it would be great if the best players could all come together and compete with no sponsors and no prizes, but that's simply not realistic. players need compensation for the time they spend, otherwise no one will do it. if those challenger players aren't getting enough, then either they should drop out of the sport or blizzard should change the system. but yes, the private person stepping in is a bad thing because to me that means we're abandoning any sense of credibility for the tournaments blizzard is giving us. at that point, why doesn't naniwa just start his own starcraft league?
(the answer, of course, is that he only wants to give money to people whose wins will make him money later  )
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On October 29 2013 07:02 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:52 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 29 2013 06:32 Valikyr wrote:On October 29 2013 06:31 Darkhoarse wrote:I realize that Naniwa is probably joking, but it is a little sketchy to do that haha. Plus, if I was playing Revival I would know Naniwa gets 5k with no wins if I beat Revival and I'd ask for a bit more . All joking aside, I don't really like this. Why? Giving players additional incentive to play good is not so bad, is it? If he would pay Revival to lose though, that's another matter. I think having the players have incentive should be the case. HOWEVER that is Blizzard's job. They need to pay people for winning their challenger matches, considering they do not seed for premier next year and therefore people lose motivation. I understand Naniwa's reasoning, but he shouldn't have to do this, Blizzard should. I know this isn't actually what's happening, but if this did go down I'd feel like Naniwa paid to get into Blizzcon WHICH IS NOT THE CASE but it would just feel weird to me. I dunno maybe I'm the minority. And I don't condemn Naniwa or anything. This is what I'm not understanding. How is Naniwa raising the stakes him buying his way in? Unless he pays Revival to punt the match, everyone should already be trying to win. What does it change? That's just a dumb feeling I have it's not actually happening I dunno I just don't like the feel of it. Naniwa isn't doing anything wrong, and the stakes should be raised, but I don't think a third party with a vested interest in the outcome should be doing it. Blizzard should make sure there is adequate incentive to play your best and try to win.
Huh, I guess (to me) its such a low sum compared to what they would get for winning the tournament that its almost no different than him offering to buy the players who beat revival dinner and a movie or a prostitute for winning. Like, would you feel the same way if Naniwa offered $50 instead of $500?
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On October 29 2013 06:57 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:55 G-Dy wrote:On October 29 2013 06:50 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:47 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:44 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:41 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:35 Snusmumriken wrote:
lol you guys are fucking ridiculous. 14 pages over a twitterjoke, and not one single coherent argument as to why this would be a bad thing.
jesus. Just wondering but how do you know its a joke? I have yet to see Naniwa say 1 joking thing since he is either BM or super serious. If he now decided to start joking, very inappropriate time. read the last part? There hasn't been one single coherent argument as to why it would be a bad thing if he's serious. That was not my point. Did you even have a point? Naniwa pretty much trolls 24/7 on his twitter, so for you to say hes either superserious or bm means you have no fucking clue what youre talking about. Well i am curious, too. How do you know it is a joke? Just guessing or did naniwa say so? Because backroom deals are usually done in the back room, not on twitter.
it is not a backroom deal.
it is a bounty.
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On October 29 2013 07:02 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:58 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:53 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:45 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
You literally don't like the idea of good things being done because the perpetrator of said good thing is getting paid. no, i never said this, nor do i believe it. this is your confusion; you are not correct about what my opinions are. if you want to tell me that the miscommunication is my fault and that i have poor language skills, feel free to do that. if there's a miscommunication i will try to clarify it, which is what i was doing. you seem to be turning it into some kind of competition about who spoke "correctly," and that's not something i'm interested in. you want to be correct? fine, you are correct, the miscommunication is my fault. but that still doesn't mean that you were ever accurately interpreting my beliefs On October 29 2013 06:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:it's unfun because i no longer identify with the players' drive to succeed and show high performance for the sake of good-spirited competition. in that scenario i see the players "motivation"/performance as a result of a cash agreement All prize money is a cash agreement... Unless you're arguing against the existing of money in all competitions? i assumed context would make it obvious that "cash agreement" was shorthand for "cash agreement between competitors rather than between the organizer and the placers". maybe it didn't. So if you don't mind people getting paid to do good things, then what is your problem with Naniwa jokingly commenting about paying people to do good things/compete harder? first, the premise of this argument is based on other people apparently believing he was serious. if it was a joke then obviously who cares? but there are people sincerely saying "i think he's serious/even if he's serious i think it's cool/good/ok," which is what i'm arguing against as for what my problem is... i'm reaching a point of not knowing what else to say again. i believe it sets a negative precedent for the way tournaments should be conducted. as a fan, i enjoy tournaments that are conducted with standards of professionalism based on my personal beliefs and preferences. that's why i think it's bad. i do not want players to pay each other for their performance in tournaments. i think that's blizzard's responsibility to do and anything else is tampering with what i consider the purpose of a tournament: to determine the player who is most skilled and most dedicated to refining his or her skill if someone doesn't want to practice until naniwa gives them money, i don't think they are the deserving party. if we are going to talk about challenger players not having enough incentive because of WCS structure, that's entirely different and i would even grant it to you. the system probably needs to change. but naniwa screwing with the prize pool isn't a solution to that problem any more than shooting cops would solve a corrupt precinct But if somebody doesn't want to practice until blizzard gives them money, then its ok? Your analogy falters by the way. An appropriate analogy would be if a private person stepped in and payed cops because they were underpayed and thus didn't do their jobs correctly. While the problem lies with the state (blizzard) not doing their job, the private person stepping in (naniwa) and possibly increasing the quality of investigations (games) is somehow a bad thing in your world. Woe is me, you make no sense. no, i don't think that way either. i don't generally cheer for players who admit or are widely believed to be in the game just to make a living. but as i've said before, i acknowledge that certain things are avoidable and other things are unavoidable. in another post i said that it would be great if the best players could all come together and compete with no sponsors and no prizes, but that's simply not realistic. players need compensation for the time they spend, otherwise no one will do it. if those challenger players aren't getting enough, then either they should drop out of the sport or blizzard should change the system. but yes, the private person stepping in is a bad thing because to me that means we're abandoning any sense of credibility for the tournaments blizzard is giving us. at that point, why doesn't naniwa just start his own starcraft league? (the answer, of course, is that he only wants to give money to people whose wins will make him money later )
Poker chips become random pieces of plastic if there's no buy-in. The competition only happens because there is a prize at the end of the tunnel to compete for.
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United States23455 Posts
On October 29 2013 07:04 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 07:02 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 29 2013 06:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:52 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 29 2013 06:32 Valikyr wrote:On October 29 2013 06:31 Darkhoarse wrote:I realize that Naniwa is probably joking, but it is a little sketchy to do that haha. Plus, if I was playing Revival I would know Naniwa gets 5k with no wins if I beat Revival and I'd ask for a bit more . All joking aside, I don't really like this. Why? Giving players additional incentive to play good is not so bad, is it? If he would pay Revival to lose though, that's another matter. I think having the players have incentive should be the case. HOWEVER that is Blizzard's job. They need to pay people for winning their challenger matches, considering they do not seed for premier next year and therefore people lose motivation. I understand Naniwa's reasoning, but he shouldn't have to do this, Blizzard should. I know this isn't actually what's happening, but if this did go down I'd feel like Naniwa paid to get into Blizzcon WHICH IS NOT THE CASE but it would just feel weird to me. I dunno maybe I'm the minority. And I don't condemn Naniwa or anything. This is what I'm not understanding. How is Naniwa raising the stakes him buying his way in? Unless he pays Revival to punt the match, everyone should already be trying to win. What does it change? That's just a dumb feeling I have it's not actually happening I dunno I just don't like the feel of it. Naniwa isn't doing anything wrong, and the stakes should be raised, but I don't think a third party with a vested interest in the outcome should be doing it. Blizzard should make sure there is adequate incentive to play your best and try to win. Huh, I guess (to me) its such a low sum compared to what they would get for winning the tournament that its almost no different than him offering to buy the players who beat revival dinner and a movie or a prostitute for winning. Like, would you feel the same way if Naniwa offered $50 instead of $500?
Nah probably not. Maybe it's just because I'm broke as all hell that I think $500 dollars is some mythical sum.
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On October 29 2013 07:02 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:52 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 29 2013 06:32 Valikyr wrote:On October 29 2013 06:31 Darkhoarse wrote:I realize that Naniwa is probably joking, but it is a little sketchy to do that haha. Plus, if I was playing Revival I would know Naniwa gets 5k with no wins if I beat Revival and I'd ask for a bit more . All joking aside, I don't really like this. Why? Giving players additional incentive to play good is not so bad, is it? If he would pay Revival to lose though, that's another matter. I think having the players have incentive should be the case. HOWEVER that is Blizzard's job. They need to pay people for winning their challenger matches, considering they do not seed for premier next year and therefore people lose motivation. I understand Naniwa's reasoning, but he shouldn't have to do this, Blizzard should. I know this isn't actually what's happening, but if this did go down I'd feel like Naniwa paid to get into Blizzcon WHICH IS NOT THE CASE but it would just feel weird to me. I dunno maybe I'm the minority. And I don't condemn Naniwa or anything. This is what I'm not understanding. How is Naniwa raising the stakes him buying his way in? Unless he pays Revival to punt the match, everyone should already be trying to win. What does it change? That's just a dumb feeling I have it's not actually happening I dunno I just don't like the feel of it. Naniwa isn't doing anything wrong, and the stakes should be raised, but I don't think a third party with a vested interest in the outcome should be doing it. Blizzard should make sure there is adequate incentive to play your best and try to win.
yeah, and i don't think naniwa is doing anything wrong either. from the beginning i've been saying that the issue is with how blizzard handles this. i think it's appropriate for them to tell him not to make tweets like that or imply that he is going to do that. that's how i would handle it if i were blizzard. that's all. no pitchfork, no "freaking out" or "bitching" or "being too serious" like people seem to think. just an opinion that a lot of people seem to strongly dislike
considering i have no impact on what blizzard does, i think a lot of people could manage to relax a bit
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On October 29 2013 07:05 G-Dy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:57 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:55 G-Dy wrote:On October 29 2013 06:50 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:47 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:44 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:41 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:35 Snusmumriken wrote:
lol you guys are fucking ridiculous. 14 pages over a twitterjoke, and not one single coherent argument as to why this would be a bad thing.
jesus. Just wondering but how do you know its a joke? I have yet to see Naniwa say 1 joking thing since he is either BM or super serious. If he now decided to start joking, very inappropriate time. read the last part? There hasn't been one single coherent argument as to why it would be a bad thing if he's serious. That was not my point. Did you even have a point? Naniwa pretty much trolls 24/7 on his twitter, so for you to say hes either superserious or bm means you have no fucking clue what youre talking about. Well i am curious, too. How do you know it is a joke? Just guessing or did naniwa say so? Because backroom deals are usually done in the back room, not on twitter. it is not a backroom deal. it is a bounty.
IPL Fight Club bounties were the best part of IPL!
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On October 29 2013 07:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 07:02 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:58 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:53 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:45 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
You literally don't like the idea of good things being done because the perpetrator of said good thing is getting paid. no, i never said this, nor do i believe it. this is your confusion; you are not correct about what my opinions are. if you want to tell me that the miscommunication is my fault and that i have poor language skills, feel free to do that. if there's a miscommunication i will try to clarify it, which is what i was doing. you seem to be turning it into some kind of competition about who spoke "correctly," and that's not something i'm interested in. you want to be correct? fine, you are correct, the miscommunication is my fault. but that still doesn't mean that you were ever accurately interpreting my beliefs On October 29 2013 06:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:it's unfun because i no longer identify with the players' drive to succeed and show high performance for the sake of good-spirited competition. in that scenario i see the players "motivation"/performance as a result of a cash agreement All prize money is a cash agreement... Unless you're arguing against the existing of money in all competitions? i assumed context would make it obvious that "cash agreement" was shorthand for "cash agreement between competitors rather than between the organizer and the placers". maybe it didn't. So if you don't mind people getting paid to do good things, then what is your problem with Naniwa jokingly commenting about paying people to do good things/compete harder? first, the premise of this argument is based on other people apparently believing he was serious. if it was a joke then obviously who cares? but there are people sincerely saying "i think he's serious/even if he's serious i think it's cool/good/ok," which is what i'm arguing against as for what my problem is... i'm reaching a point of not knowing what else to say again. i believe it sets a negative precedent for the way tournaments should be conducted. as a fan, i enjoy tournaments that are conducted with standards of professionalism based on my personal beliefs and preferences. that's why i think it's bad. i do not want players to pay each other for their performance in tournaments. i think that's blizzard's responsibility to do and anything else is tampering with what i consider the purpose of a tournament: to determine the player who is most skilled and most dedicated to refining his or her skill if someone doesn't want to practice until naniwa gives them money, i don't think they are the deserving party. if we are going to talk about challenger players not having enough incentive because of WCS structure, that's entirely different and i would even grant it to you. the system probably needs to change. but naniwa screwing with the prize pool isn't a solution to that problem any more than shooting cops would solve a corrupt precinct But if somebody doesn't want to practice until blizzard gives them money, then its ok? Your analogy falters by the way. An appropriate analogy would be if a private person stepped in and payed cops because they were underpayed and thus didn't do their jobs correctly. While the problem lies with the state (blizzard) not doing their job, the private person stepping in (naniwa) and possibly increasing the quality of investigations (games) is somehow a bad thing in your world. Woe is me, you make no sense. no, i don't think that way either. i don't generally cheer for players who admit or are widely believed to be in the game just to make a living. but as i've said before, i acknowledge that certain things are avoidable and other things are unavoidable. in another post i said that it would be great if the best players could all come together and compete with no sponsors and no prizes, but that's simply not realistic. players need compensation for the time they spend, otherwise no one will do it. if those challenger players aren't getting enough, then either they should drop out of the sport or blizzard should change the system. but yes, the private person stepping in is a bad thing because to me that means we're abandoning any sense of credibility for the tournaments blizzard is giving us. at that point, why doesn't naniwa just start his own starcraft league? (the answer, of course, is that he only wants to give money to people whose wins will make him money later ) Poker chips become random pieces of plastic if there's no buy-in. The competition only happens because there is a prize at the end of the tunnel to compete for. with respect, read my post again. that's kind of the same thing i was saying. i realize SOME prize is necessary for a tournament to happen. but that doesn't mean that ANY prize coming from ANYWHERE is legitimate or good - at least not in my opinion. if players are just going to openly revolt against blizzard's system by buying each other off, i think that's kind of a catastrophe for the legitimacy of blizzard's control over the scene as a public sport
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On October 29 2013 07:02 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:58 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:53 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:45 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
You literally don't like the idea of good things being done because the perpetrator of said good thing is getting paid. no, i never said this, nor do i believe it. this is your confusion; you are not correct about what my opinions are. if you want to tell me that the miscommunication is my fault and that i have poor language skills, feel free to do that. if there's a miscommunication i will try to clarify it, which is what i was doing. you seem to be turning it into some kind of competition about who spoke "correctly," and that's not something i'm interested in. you want to be correct? fine, you are correct, the miscommunication is my fault. but that still doesn't mean that you were ever accurately interpreting my beliefs On October 29 2013 06:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:it's unfun because i no longer identify with the players' drive to succeed and show high performance for the sake of good-spirited competition. in that scenario i see the players "motivation"/performance as a result of a cash agreement All prize money is a cash agreement... Unless you're arguing against the existing of money in all competitions? i assumed context would make it obvious that "cash agreement" was shorthand for "cash agreement between competitors rather than between the organizer and the placers". maybe it didn't. So if you don't mind people getting paid to do good things, then what is your problem with Naniwa jokingly commenting about paying people to do good things/compete harder? first, the premise of this argument is based on other people apparently believing he was serious. if it was a joke then obviously who cares? but there are people sincerely saying "i think he's serious/even if he's serious i think it's cool/good/ok," which is what i'm arguing against as for what my problem is... i'm reaching a point of not knowing what else to say again. i believe it sets a negative precedent for the way tournaments should be conducted. as a fan, i enjoy tournaments that are conducted with standards of professionalism based on my personal beliefs and preferences. that's why i think it's bad. i do not want players to pay each other for their performance in tournaments. i think that's blizzard's responsibility to do and anything else is tampering with what i consider the purpose of a tournament: to determine the player who is most skilled and most dedicated to refining his or her skill if someone doesn't want to practice until naniwa gives them money, i don't think they are the deserving party. if we are going to talk about challenger players not having enough incentive because of WCS structure, that's entirely different and i would even grant it to you. the system probably needs to change. but naniwa screwing with the prize pool isn't a solution to that problem any more than shooting cops would solve a corrupt precinct But if somebody doesn't want to practice until blizzard gives them money, then its ok? Your analogy falters by the way. An appropriate analogy would be if a private person stepped in and payed cops because they were underpayed and thus didn't do their jobs correctly. While the problem lies with the state (blizzard) not doing their job, the private person stepping in (naniwa) and possibly increasing the quality of investigations (games) is somehow a bad thing in your world. Woe is me, you make no sense. no, i don't think that way either. i don't generally cheer for players who admit or are widely believed to be in the game just to make a living. but as i've said before, i acknowledge that certain things are avoidable and other things are unavoidable. in another post i said that i t would be great if the best players could all come together and compete with no sponsors and no prizes, but that's simply not realistic. players need compensation for the time they spend, otherwise no one will do it. if those challenger players aren't getting enough, then either they should drop out of the sport or blizzard should change the system. but yes, the private person stepping in is a bad thing because to me that means we're abandoning any sense of credibility for the tournaments blizzard is giving us. at that point, why doesn't naniwa just start his own starcraft league? (the answer, of course, is that he only wants to give money to people whose wins will make him money later )
lol.
How is that lessening the credibility? Dont just throw words around. How exactly is increasing skill by increasing incentive abandoning credibility? You actually remind me of squire nortons song:
+ Show Spoiler +THE child and the old man sat alone
In the quiet, peaceful shade
Of the old green boughs, that had richly grown
In the deep, thick forest glade.
It was a soft and pleasant sound,
That rustling of the oak;
And the gentle breeze played lightly round
As thus the fair boy spoke:--
"Dear father, what can honor be,
Of which I hear men rave?
Field, cell and cloister, land and sea,
The tempest and the grave:--
It lives in all, 'tis sought in each,
'Tis never heard or seen:
Now tell me, father, I beseech,
What can this honor mean?"
"It is a name -- a name, my child --
It lived in other days,
When men were rude, their passions wild,
Their sport, thick battle-frays.
When, in armor bright, the warrior bold
Knelt to his lady's eyes:
Beneath the abbey pavement old
That warrior's dust now lies.
"The iron hearts of that old day
Have mouldered in the grave;
And chivalry has passed away,
With knights so true and brave;
The honor, which to them was life,
Throbs in no bosom now;
It only gilds the gambler's strife,
Or decks the worthless vow."
Can't be a child forever.
EDIT: To add, there is never ever a problem with adding incentive through money as long as the incentive is to perform better and the money doesn't come from illegal activities. The opposite (paying money to throw games) is always a bad thing for a number of reasons, most pretty obvious, but you have yet to demonstrate why it is bad for the competition if people can add incentive when its lacking. You have simply thrown some touchy-feely words around as to how you feel about it. Well maybe you should think more about how you feel.
And by the way similar things like this have happened in the gsl since its beginning. Ive yet to see you posting a complain to gom.
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On October 29 2013 07:06 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 07:04 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 07:02 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 29 2013 06:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:52 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 29 2013 06:32 Valikyr wrote:On October 29 2013 06:31 Darkhoarse wrote:I realize that Naniwa is probably joking, but it is a little sketchy to do that haha. Plus, if I was playing Revival I would know Naniwa gets 5k with no wins if I beat Revival and I'd ask for a bit more . All joking aside, I don't really like this. Why? Giving players additional incentive to play good is not so bad, is it? If he would pay Revival to lose though, that's another matter. I think having the players have incentive should be the case. HOWEVER that is Blizzard's job. They need to pay people for winning their challenger matches, considering they do not seed for premier next year and therefore people lose motivation. I understand Naniwa's reasoning, but he shouldn't have to do this, Blizzard should. I know this isn't actually what's happening, but if this did go down I'd feel like Naniwa paid to get into Blizzcon WHICH IS NOT THE CASE but it would just feel weird to me. I dunno maybe I'm the minority. And I don't condemn Naniwa or anything. This is what I'm not understanding. How is Naniwa raising the stakes him buying his way in? Unless he pays Revival to punt the match, everyone should already be trying to win. What does it change? That's just a dumb feeling I have it's not actually happening I dunno I just don't like the feel of it. Naniwa isn't doing anything wrong, and the stakes should be raised, but I don't think a third party with a vested interest in the outcome should be doing it. Blizzard should make sure there is adequate incentive to play your best and try to win. Huh, I guess (to me) its such a low sum compared to what they would get for winning the tournament that its almost no different than him offering to buy the players who beat revival dinner and a movie or a prostitute for winning. Like, would you feel the same way if Naniwa offered $50 instead of $500? Nah probably not. Maybe it's just because I'm broke as all hell that I think $500 dollars is some mythical sum.
Got it, to me it's all relative.
Doing well in IEM would net them $2,000 just for reaching the top 4; I doubt they'd work harder to get $500 than they would to get $2,000
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On October 29 2013 07:08 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 07:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 07:02 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:58 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:53 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:45 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
You literally don't like the idea of good things being done because the perpetrator of said good thing is getting paid. no, i never said this, nor do i believe it. this is your confusion; you are not correct about what my opinions are. if you want to tell me that the miscommunication is my fault and that i have poor language skills, feel free to do that. if there's a miscommunication i will try to clarify it, which is what i was doing. you seem to be turning it into some kind of competition about who spoke "correctly," and that's not something i'm interested in. you want to be correct? fine, you are correct, the miscommunication is my fault. but that still doesn't mean that you were ever accurately interpreting my beliefs On October 29 2013 06:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:it's unfun because i no longer identify with the players' drive to succeed and show high performance for the sake of good-spirited competition. in that scenario i see the players "motivation"/performance as a result of a cash agreement All prize money is a cash agreement... Unless you're arguing against the existing of money in all competitions? i assumed context would make it obvious that "cash agreement" was shorthand for "cash agreement between competitors rather than between the organizer and the placers". maybe it didn't. So if you don't mind people getting paid to do good things, then what is your problem with Naniwa jokingly commenting about paying people to do good things/compete harder? first, the premise of this argument is based on other people apparently believing he was serious. if it was a joke then obviously who cares? but there are people sincerely saying "i think he's serious/even if he's serious i think it's cool/good/ok," which is what i'm arguing against as for what my problem is... i'm reaching a point of not knowing what else to say again. i believe it sets a negative precedent for the way tournaments should be conducted. as a fan, i enjoy tournaments that are conducted with standards of professionalism based on my personal beliefs and preferences. that's why i think it's bad. i do not want players to pay each other for their performance in tournaments. i think that's blizzard's responsibility to do and anything else is tampering with what i consider the purpose of a tournament: to determine the player who is most skilled and most dedicated to refining his or her skill if someone doesn't want to practice until naniwa gives them money, i don't think they are the deserving party. if we are going to talk about challenger players not having enough incentive because of WCS structure, that's entirely different and i would even grant it to you. the system probably needs to change. but naniwa screwing with the prize pool isn't a solution to that problem any more than shooting cops would solve a corrupt precinct But if somebody doesn't want to practice until blizzard gives them money, then its ok? Your analogy falters by the way. An appropriate analogy would be if a private person stepped in and payed cops because they were underpayed and thus didn't do their jobs correctly. While the problem lies with the state (blizzard) not doing their job, the private person stepping in (naniwa) and possibly increasing the quality of investigations (games) is somehow a bad thing in your world. Woe is me, you make no sense. no, i don't think that way either. i don't generally cheer for players who admit or are widely believed to be in the game just to make a living. but as i've said before, i acknowledge that certain things are avoidable and other things are unavoidable. in another post i said that it would be great if the best players could all come together and compete with no sponsors and no prizes, but that's simply not realistic. players need compensation for the time they spend, otherwise no one will do it. if those challenger players aren't getting enough, then either they should drop out of the sport or blizzard should change the system. but yes, the private person stepping in is a bad thing because to me that means we're abandoning any sense of credibility for the tournaments blizzard is giving us. at that point, why doesn't naniwa just start his own starcraft league? (the answer, of course, is that he only wants to give money to people whose wins will make him money later ) Poker chips become random pieces of plastic if there's no buy-in. The competition only happens because there is a prize at the end of the tunnel to compete for. with respect, read my post again. that's kind of the same thing i was saying. i realize SOME prize is necessary for a tournament to happen. but that doesn't mean that ANY prize coming from ANYWHERE is legitimate or good - at least not in my opinion. if players are just going to openly revolt against blizzard's system by buying each other off, i think that's kind of a catastrophe for the legitimacy of blizzard's control over the scene as a public sport
But no one is getting bought off. If Naniwa doesn't offer $500, people will still try to beat Revival. If Naniwa offers $500, people will still beat revival.
All Naniwa is doing is telling Revival that he wants him to lose. That's it. It's drama, and story, and narrative; nothing but good stuff for the scene. It's trash talking and showboating.
No one is being asked to do anything different than what they are already doing.
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On October 29 2013 07:10 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 07:02 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:58 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:53 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:45 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
You literally don't like the idea of good things being done because the perpetrator of said good thing is getting paid. no, i never said this, nor do i believe it. this is your confusion; you are not correct about what my opinions are. if you want to tell me that the miscommunication is my fault and that i have poor language skills, feel free to do that. if there's a miscommunication i will try to clarify it, which is what i was doing. you seem to be turning it into some kind of competition about who spoke "correctly," and that's not something i'm interested in. you want to be correct? fine, you are correct, the miscommunication is my fault. but that still doesn't mean that you were ever accurately interpreting my beliefs On October 29 2013 06:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:it's unfun because i no longer identify with the players' drive to succeed and show high performance for the sake of good-spirited competition. in that scenario i see the players "motivation"/performance as a result of a cash agreement All prize money is a cash agreement... Unless you're arguing against the existing of money in all competitions? i assumed context would make it obvious that "cash agreement" was shorthand for "cash agreement between competitors rather than between the organizer and the placers". maybe it didn't. So if you don't mind people getting paid to do good things, then what is your problem with Naniwa jokingly commenting about paying people to do good things/compete harder? first, the premise of this argument is based on other people apparently believing he was serious. if it was a joke then obviously who cares? but there are people sincerely saying "i think he's serious/even if he's serious i think it's cool/good/ok," which is what i'm arguing against as for what my problem is... i'm reaching a point of not knowing what else to say again. i believe it sets a negative precedent for the way tournaments should be conducted. as a fan, i enjoy tournaments that are conducted with standards of professionalism based on my personal beliefs and preferences. that's why i think it's bad. i do not want players to pay each other for their performance in tournaments. i think that's blizzard's responsibility to do and anything else is tampering with what i consider the purpose of a tournament: to determine the player who is most skilled and most dedicated to refining his or her skill if someone doesn't want to practice until naniwa gives them money, i don't think they are the deserving party. if we are going to talk about challenger players not having enough incentive because of WCS structure, that's entirely different and i would even grant it to you. the system probably needs to change. but naniwa screwing with the prize pool isn't a solution to that problem any more than shooting cops would solve a corrupt precinct But if somebody doesn't want to practice until blizzard gives them money, then its ok? Your analogy falters by the way. An appropriate analogy would be if a private person stepped in and payed cops because they were underpayed and thus didn't do their jobs correctly. While the problem lies with the state (blizzard) not doing their job, the private person stepping in (naniwa) and possibly increasing the quality of investigations (games) is somehow a bad thing in your world. Woe is me, you make no sense. no, i don't think that way either. i don't generally cheer for players who admit or are widely believed to be in the game just to make a living. but as i've said before, i acknowledge that certain things are avoidable and other things are unavoidable. in another post i said that i t would be great if the best players could all come together and compete with no sponsors and no prizes, but that's simply not realistic. players need compensation for the time they spend, otherwise no one will do it. if those challenger players aren't getting enough, then either they should drop out of the sport or blizzard should change the system. but yes, the private person stepping in is a bad thing because to me that means we're abandoning any sense of credibility for the tournaments blizzard is giving us. at that point, why doesn't naniwa just start his own starcraft league? (the answer, of course, is that he only wants to give money to people whose wins will make him money later ) lol. How is that lessening the credibility? Dont just throw words around. How exactly is increasing skill by increasing incentive abandoning credibility? You actually remind me of squire nortons song: + Show Spoiler +THE child and the old man sat alone
In the quiet, peaceful shade
Of the old green boughs, that had richly grown
In the deep, thick forest glade.
It was a soft and pleasant sound,
That rustling of the oak;
And the gentle breeze played lightly round
As thus the fair boy spoke:--
"Dear father, what can honor be,
Of which I hear men rave?
Field, cell and cloister, land and sea,
The tempest and the grave:--
It lives in all, 'tis sought in each,
'Tis never heard or seen:
Now tell me, father, I beseech,
What can this honor mean?"
"It is a name -- a name, my child --
It lived in other days,
When men were rude, their passions wild,
Their sport, thick battle-frays.
When, in armor bright, the warrior bold
Knelt to his lady's eyes:
Beneath the abbey pavement old
That warrior's dust now lies.
"The iron hearts of that old day
Have mouldered in the grave;
And chivalry has passed away,
With knights so true and brave;
The honor, which to them was life,
Throbs in no bosom now;
It only gilds the gambler's strife,
Or decks the worthless vow." Can't be a child forever.
if blizzard isn't able to properly recompense the players for participating in their tournaments, then by my standards they are not a credible organizer. players defying the prize pool system by coming up with their own rewards and systems is a step toward delegitimizing WCS. you may disagree with me if you wish, but my choice of words was fine. please stop being unnecessary hostile as well!
thanks for the lyrics, though; they're quite beautiful and a good read
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On October 29 2013 07:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 07:05 G-Dy wrote:On October 29 2013 06:57 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:55 G-Dy wrote:On October 29 2013 06:50 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:47 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:44 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:41 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:35 Snusmumriken wrote:
lol you guys are fucking ridiculous. 14 pages over a twitterjoke, and not one single coherent argument as to why this would be a bad thing.
jesus. Just wondering but how do you know its a joke? I have yet to see Naniwa say 1 joking thing since he is either BM or super serious. If he now decided to start joking, very inappropriate time. read the last part? There hasn't been one single coherent argument as to why it would be a bad thing if he's serious. That was not my point. Did you even have a point? Naniwa pretty much trolls 24/7 on his twitter, so for you to say hes either superserious or bm means you have no fucking clue what youre talking about. Well i am curious, too. How do you know it is a joke? Just guessing or did naniwa say so? Because backroom deals are usually done in the back room, not on twitter. it is not a backroom deal. it is a bounty. IPL Fight Club bounties were the best part of IPL!
The Hyunstoppable legend.
By the way, how can people argue about this 16 pages ? Is there really a problem ? I would dare to say i am a naniwa antifan but i can't really hate on this 
Edit - Oh of course, the "this is blizzard's fault". How could i miss that one.
Dumbasses, it happens on every single league.
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On October 29 2013 07:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 07:08 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 07:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 07:02 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:58 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:53 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:45 Waise wrote:On October 29 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
You literally don't like the idea of good things being done because the perpetrator of said good thing is getting paid. no, i never said this, nor do i believe it. this is your confusion; you are not correct about what my opinions are. if you want to tell me that the miscommunication is my fault and that i have poor language skills, feel free to do that. if there's a miscommunication i will try to clarify it, which is what i was doing. you seem to be turning it into some kind of competition about who spoke "correctly," and that's not something i'm interested in. you want to be correct? fine, you are correct, the miscommunication is my fault. but that still doesn't mean that you were ever accurately interpreting my beliefs On October 29 2013 06:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:it's unfun because i no longer identify with the players' drive to succeed and show high performance for the sake of good-spirited competition. in that scenario i see the players "motivation"/performance as a result of a cash agreement All prize money is a cash agreement... Unless you're arguing against the existing of money in all competitions? i assumed context would make it obvious that "cash agreement" was shorthand for "cash agreement between competitors rather than between the organizer and the placers". maybe it didn't. So if you don't mind people getting paid to do good things, then what is your problem with Naniwa jokingly commenting about paying people to do good things/compete harder? first, the premise of this argument is based on other people apparently believing he was serious. if it was a joke then obviously who cares? but there are people sincerely saying "i think he's serious/even if he's serious i think it's cool/good/ok," which is what i'm arguing against as for what my problem is... i'm reaching a point of not knowing what else to say again. i believe it sets a negative precedent for the way tournaments should be conducted. as a fan, i enjoy tournaments that are conducted with standards of professionalism based on my personal beliefs and preferences. that's why i think it's bad. i do not want players to pay each other for their performance in tournaments. i think that's blizzard's responsibility to do and anything else is tampering with what i consider the purpose of a tournament: to determine the player who is most skilled and most dedicated to refining his or her skill if someone doesn't want to practice until naniwa gives them money, i don't think they are the deserving party. if we are going to talk about challenger players not having enough incentive because of WCS structure, that's entirely different and i would even grant it to you. the system probably needs to change. but naniwa screwing with the prize pool isn't a solution to that problem any more than shooting cops would solve a corrupt precinct But if somebody doesn't want to practice until blizzard gives them money, then its ok? Your analogy falters by the way. An appropriate analogy would be if a private person stepped in and payed cops because they were underpayed and thus didn't do their jobs correctly. While the problem lies with the state (blizzard) not doing their job, the private person stepping in (naniwa) and possibly increasing the quality of investigations (games) is somehow a bad thing in your world. Woe is me, you make no sense. no, i don't think that way either. i don't generally cheer for players who admit or are widely believed to be in the game just to make a living. but as i've said before, i acknowledge that certain things are avoidable and other things are unavoidable. in another post i said that it would be great if the best players could all come together and compete with no sponsors and no prizes, but that's simply not realistic. players need compensation for the time they spend, otherwise no one will do it. if those challenger players aren't getting enough, then either they should drop out of the sport or blizzard should change the system. but yes, the private person stepping in is a bad thing because to me that means we're abandoning any sense of credibility for the tournaments blizzard is giving us. at that point, why doesn't naniwa just start his own starcraft league? (the answer, of course, is that he only wants to give money to people whose wins will make him money later ) Poker chips become random pieces of plastic if there's no buy-in. The competition only happens because there is a prize at the end of the tunnel to compete for. with respect, read my post again. that's kind of the same thing i was saying. i realize SOME prize is necessary for a tournament to happen. but that doesn't mean that ANY prize coming from ANYWHERE is legitimate or good - at least not in my opinion. if players are just going to openly revolt against blizzard's system by buying each other off, i think that's kind of a catastrophe for the legitimacy of blizzard's control over the scene as a public sport But no one is getting bought off. If Naniwa doesn't offer $500, people will still try to beat Revival. If Naniwa offers $500, people will still beat revival. All Naniwa is doing is telling Revival that he wants him to lose. That's it. It's drama, and story, and narrative; nothing but good stuff for the scene. It's trash talking and showboating. No one is being asked to do anything different than what they are already doing.
again, the premise of this argument is that naniwa actually believes he is improving his chances at competing in the finals by offering the $500 and that it would work. i based that premise off of other people's posts. i don't know how many times i have to bring up that i was one of the few people who originally assumed he was joking.
but i don't know if he's joking or not, i can't read his mind. so if people think he's serious and want to debate it, i'll debate it. i'm arguing on a premise. if the premise is false, it doesn't really matter, because i'm still stating honest opinions about a hypothetical scenario
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On October 29 2013 07:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 07:05 G-Dy wrote:On October 29 2013 06:57 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 29 2013 06:55 G-Dy wrote:On October 29 2013 06:50 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:47 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:44 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 29 2013 06:41 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2013 06:35 Snusmumriken wrote:
lol you guys are fucking ridiculous. 14 pages over a twitterjoke, and not one single coherent argument as to why this would be a bad thing.
jesus. Just wondering but how do you know its a joke? I have yet to see Naniwa say 1 joking thing since he is either BM or super serious. If he now decided to start joking, very inappropriate time. read the last part? There hasn't been one single coherent argument as to why it would be a bad thing if he's serious. That was not my point. Did you even have a point? Naniwa pretty much trolls 24/7 on his twitter, so for you to say hes either superserious or bm means you have no fucking clue what youre talking about. Well i am curious, too. How do you know it is a joke? Just guessing or did naniwa say so? Because backroom deals are usually done in the back room, not on twitter. it is not a backroom deal. it is a bounty. IPL Fight Club bounties were the best part of IPL!
I miss those so soooo much ;;
It was funny watching Hyun just slay challenger after challenger each week. Never forget that 14-kill streak. Took fall-Leenock (essentially a Super Saiyan) to finally kill him. xD
==
wtf @ 16 pages already for this
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anyway, this was fun. contrary to what some people apparently thought, i certainly wasn't trolling. i'm just a fast typist who enjoys debate and had nothing better to do for a while, and a lot of people were asking me for further clarifications, so i had plenty of posts to make in any case, it's just an opinion, i'm not calling sponsors or starting a petition, so you can just relax and disagree with me if you think i'm wrong. probably done with this thread though! i don't think there's anything about my view i haven't already explained, and i don't want it to get more repetitive than it already is
peace
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EPT
