And if 2vs2 was the solution for StarCraft 2 ? - Page 4

beg

991 Posts

October 08 2013 15:11 GMT

#61

Let's go to LoL, it's free and it's teamgames, so even if I suck it's might not be me the problem

tbh, MOBAs are equally frustrating to play. at least to me. i'm still a noob but i've already gotten very frustrated. i often encounter situations that i feel can only be won by sick teamplay where every teammate knows exactly what's up and what to do or at least extremely good communication.

of course that doesnt happen. i prefer sc2 1v1 because i'm alone.

Scorch

Austria3371 Posts

October 08 2013 15:12 GMT

#62

I'm a passionate 2v2 player myself. Laddering is great fun as it requires teamplay, communication and strategies for more matchups. The ladder has its fair share of cheese, but most of the time you can make a macro style work if you want. I've had hundreds of epic late games, incredible comebacks and close defenses. Discussing what went wrong, enjoying the latest victory or raging at imbalance is much more fun when you're on Skype with a friend.

However, I don't think 2v2 works well for competitive play. There are a number of rushes and feeding strategies that are extremely hard to stop and the professional metagame would degenerate to cheese vs cheese. Also, the map pool has always been terrible. At least nowadays most ladder maps have a natural expansion for each player, but they're still far from good. The maps may be relatively easy to fix, but the strategies are not.

DusTerr

2520 Posts

October 08 2013 15:15 GMT

#63

On October 09 2013 00:12 Scorch wrote:
I'm a passionate 2v2 player myself. Laddering is great fun as it requires teamplay, communication and strategies for more matchups. The ladder has its fair share of cheese, but most of the time you can make a macro style work if you want. I've had hundreds of epic late games, incredible comebacks and close defenses. Discussing what went wrong, enjoying the latest victory or raging at imbalance is much more fun when you're on Skype with a friend.

However, I don't think 2v2 works well for competitive play. There are a number of rushes and feeding strategies that are extremely hard to stop and the professional metagame would degenerate to cheese vs cheese. Also, the map pool has always been terrible. At least nowadays most ladder maps have a natural expansion for each player, but they're still far from good. The maps may be relatively easy to fix, but the strategies are not.

to be fair 1v1 has always started as cheese vs cheese until the meta stabilizes. I think IF 2v2 ever had the chance to do so (tournaments, streams etc) we'd see the same happen.

Kheve

323 Posts

October 08 2013 15:24 GMT

#64

Sad to say the koreans themselves killed 2v2 T_T. The first 2v2 champion was a kazakhstan duo as i recall and when the koreans realised its totally different meta, they removed it from competition T_T. Was very very fun to watch.

Drake

Germany6146 Posts

October 08 2013 15:29 GMT

#65

thousend of 2n2's and your telling me its balanced ?
there are some matchups that simply CAN NEVER beat some others ...
also 2n2 is boring to watch and frustrating play so ... no thanks

also i read "oh most fun was teamgames bgh in bw" well STOP saying that it WAS say it was for you
for me bgh was biggest crap on earth and after 20.000 1n1 broodwar games i still hade 2n2 there too

agahamsorr0w

Netherlands359 Posts

October 08 2013 15:33 GMT

#66

On October 08 2013 22:00 Pandemona wrote:

Show nested quote +

It so isn't ;_;
You can't defend certain pushes based on maps / map positions.
Some cheese is so hard to defend it silly. It seems very luck based. You can get to a point where certain pushes hit you before you even have scouted around the map. I do like to play 2v2 with my friend, its the only reason we would play SC2. We played at a diamond level since WOL, we have never played it extensively. When we played alot it was about 10 games per week and most of that was stopped due to silly builds we couldn't hold.

If specific 2v2 maps were made like 1v1 maps, i think 2v2 professionally could work, other than that it will just be a fun thing to watch pros do (imo)

Show nested quote +

Chelsea fans to clever for this forum <333

What makes you think your definition of 2v2 balance applies for high level 2v2 when your highest league is diamond?

The op is right. The game has been balanced a little bit more with reaper nerf and mothership core. Now a team with a protoss doesnt die to ling hellion every game. And as for the maps, some are more turtle favored, some are more aggression favored. Just because you're bad at scouting and/or reacting it doesnt mean the maps are imbalanced.

KapsyL

Sweden704 Posts

October 08 2013 15:34 GMT

#67

This would be a nice step in the right direction imo and No, you can beat basicly anything in 2v2. There are a fewww builds that might give you some difficulty but seriously double 6pool is not one of them x) Maps would definetly need to improve though...

Oh and hi zepii

Theswine

Sweden10 Posts

October 08 2013 15:39 GMT

#68

You got a point, good stuff! Hope for some 2v2 tournaments! // Swine

Squat

Sweden7978 Posts

October 08 2013 15:41 GMT

#69

2v2 is kind of a poop chute, way too much emphasis on 1-base play and rushes, as mentioned a z/p combo tends to die horribly unless they turtle like mad and hope the opponent cheeses.

The problems that plague 1v1(critical mass units and terrible terrible damage specifically) are exacerbated in 2v2.

Mortal

2943 Posts

October 08 2013 15:41 GMT

#70

2v2 balanced? HAH man, that's a laugh. 2v2 is about as balanced as a blue whale on a seesaw with a chicken on the other side. it's fun, but it's terribly balanced in almost every respect.

PiPiGranDe

Canada70 Posts

October 08 2013 15:50 GMT

#71

to be honest and with no offence intended... the people saying that 2s isn't balanced and that there is a build that beats everything or a certain combination of races that beat the other races.. is just people that have never played high high masters. these people probably loss to silly builds (double 6 pool.. canon rush + lings.. etc) or lose to very standard builds (lings/hellions, reaper/stalker) and just say the game in 2s is unbalanced.

i could also say that 4 gate is unbalanced too anything lower than platinum/diamond.

i have beaten protech numerous times in the past in 2s and have also played 2s with him. i'm sure he will agree with me that 2s for the most part is balanced. just a little bit less than 1s.

bottom line is: there is no build that beats everything or combination of races that beat others.

everything in imbalanced in the 1s lower levels. 4 gate.. 6 pool... canon rush... maybe even 111.. but people still try to adjust to them.

WHY NOT do the same in 2s where supposedly is imbalanced??

watchlulu

Germany475 Posts

October 08 2013 15:51 GMT

#72

I never understood why there even IS the possibility to share resources in Multiplayer games.
The only time I think it is OKAY to share resources is when one Player get's rushed out and loses his Hatch/Nexus/CC but still has workers left to rebuild it, just not enough money.

I think 2v2 could be played professional but it's mostly really the maps they need to change and not the balance.

If it's more enjoyable? I don't know...
But I'd really appreciate to put in GM-league for teams as well.

Edit:
But I don't think it would be ever getting more popular than 1v1 though.

PiPiGranDe

Canada70 Posts

October 08 2013 16:01 GMT

#73

for all the people saying cheese is the strongest strat for 2s... couldn't be more wrong.

for high level play...if anything defensive macro play is one of the best strat out there (not best - there is not best)

for lower levels though... cheesing is so easy. everybody panics and that's gg right there. cheese can win all the way up to lower-mid masters. but trust me.. at high masters... it's mostly macro play + aggressive harass play style (for the most part)

ref4

2933 Posts

October 08 2013 16:05 GMT

#74

SC2 will never be as big as MOBA games simply because it's way too demanding to play in 1v1, and in 2v2/3v3/4v4 it all just boils down to 1 deathball vs deathball engagement to determine the winner.

Also SC2 is not free, DOTA2 and LoL are both free and reward players with shiny new skins and armors and stuff. When you get better at SC2 you just get a shinier icon.

Like somebody mentioned before SC2 is very niched and exclusive, kind of like boxing. Whereas DOTA2 and LoL are like football (or soccer for you Americans) and basketball, extremely popular.

Dream on but SC2 will never and can never surpass MOBAS in viewers due to the nature of these games.

ejozl

Denmark3481 Posts

October 08 2013 16:07 GMT

#75

2v2 is very unexplored. In WC3 every clanwar would have 2v2's as part of it.
I think this can easily be done in SC2 aswell. Biggest problem is that the 1v1 from every player perspective will be the most important, so 2v2's will take time from 1v1 experience.

Ender985

Spain910 Posts

October 08 2013 16:45 GMT

#76

I think one cool way that was proposed for fixing the ZZvXX type imbalances in team games is to have a 3v3 format where each team has to consist of one of each race, so that every match is TZPvTZP. It is clever because it does away with racial imbalances, and allows for largeish teams to compete. However the game becomes a complete different beast, so that finding good analytical casters for it and also observing it might become really hard.

Anyway, SC was designed to be an 1vs1 game, and since it is technically possible to play it in a team format, it does not really make much sense.

VayneAuthority

United States8983 Posts

October 08 2013 16:48 GMT

#77

I could never enjoy 2v2 due to the resource trading system. If you play with an ally that doesn't mind just play terran and making walls for you guys/building orbitals everywhere and mining and sending you all the cash then it is a pretty much foolproof strategy.

one guy just sits on one base and builds a super high tech army with the massive gas he's getting and then just steamrolls the other team 1v2 with the aid of his ally's income. That would have to be removed to make 2v2 any where near competitive.

uh-oh

Hong Kong135 Posts

October 08 2013 16:53 GMT

#78

I think a lot of the balance issues of 2v2 really come down to maps, and since the scene is focused on 1v1 atm, map makers hardly have any incentives to actually get a sense of how the 2v2 meta game(as if there's one at all, my friend and I used to be 2v2 top masters in the kr server and we do things from double proxy to standard play to ultra hardcore turtle mech skytoss) is like and make maps tailored for that meta game so that 2v2 on those maps will be balanced(long sentence lol).

The time manpower investment will be immense to make the suitable maps alone. Whether this investment is worth it or not is anybody guess.

I can see how 2v2 can appeal to casual gamers more, because of how you have your ally to blame instead of all the self burden you get from 1v1. Also a lot of the time, players' lack of skills are often overcome by their teamwork. My friend and I were both 1v1 plats and we've managed to beat 1v1 masters in 2v2 with some smart coordination.

Even if 1v1 isnt accessible to casual players, 2v2s have the potential to be. And I don't see the harm in something like a blizzard 2v2 map contest that pools community resources to create interesting 2v2 maps that are used in some sort of 2v2 open tournament in blizzcon or something.

On a side note, if blizzard decides to use a community map for ladder/wcs, do the mapmaker(s) get paid by blizzard?

Cuce

Turkey1127 Posts

October 08 2013 16:56 GMT

#79

wc3 2v2 was briliant, I would go so far to call it better than 1v1, but something just doesnt click with sc2 2v2.. maybe its just not developed enough on playerside

ZenithM

France15952 Posts

October 08 2013 17:08 GMT

#80

Feeding (resource sharing) is the single most annoying shit in 2v2 right now. Blizzard has to limit what you receive to a non-100% fraction of what you've been sent. We'll worry about balance and maps later :D

It should only be used to dump some great amount of resources late game. Like, you have 1000 gas and you don't know what to do with it, send it to your protoss ally and he'll receive something like 500-750, which is already useful enough.
But mutas and zealot-archons? Meh.

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