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Hi there,
First off all, I'm sorry for my english which isn't the best as it's not my mothertongue. I wanted to express a feeling I realised after trying some LoL games and comparing 1x1 and 2x2 in SC2. I'm mainly a 2x2 top master player, streaming when I have time (twitch.tv/Zepiii if interested), and I want to share with you my point of view.
1v1 and the high mental pressure
I never focused on 1x1, cuz I didn't really like it, but last season, I really wanted to try to get master at least for once in 1x1, so I mainly focused on it. I was top 1 diamond during a long time and I finally reach it after 300 games. But honestly, after 150 games, I was already starting to get pissed off after each lose, while I can handle easier losing in 2x2.
I really feel the mental pressure was so different from 2x2. And the first reason of it, was that I was ALONE when I was playing 1x1.
I read something on reddit, that gave me the idea to write this down, a guy just posted that he reached masters, then someone posted this :
- "Congrats bro! I think we all know whats next."
and someone replied
- "struggling in low-mid master before getting bored and trying LoL"
This sentence is so true and I'm sure it happened to a lot of players and this mainly happens because 1x1 is boring them, maybe not starcraft 2 in general.
Let's go to LoL, it's free and it's teamgames, so even if I suck it's might not be me the problem
Let's be honest, LoL is way much more popular than SC2 right now. Of course, LoL is a free game but ALSO, and I am quite sure of it, it's a TEAM GAME. And StarCraft 2 also got that possibily !
There are 2 types of teamgames, RT (Random Team) and AT (Arranged Team).
RT : The first one is the Random Team, which is something I personally don't enjoy as it's like fucking hard to get teamplay with half of the people playing it. At least, when you play that mod, you feel less frustrated if you lose, cuz you can always say : "Oh, that guy was so baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad". But the solution isn't here, I think the solution is in AT.
AT : The second is AT (Arranged Team). And I see a lot of positive points
- The MINDSET : The mindset is the first reason why we see people being good or bad from one day to an other one. This is also the main reason why people are leaving this game right now, playing 1x1, reaching a certain level, and feeling like you are not able to improve. If you are playing 2x2, you can talk with your teammate after the lose (or even win), and discuss how to improve, watch replay together and other stuff. Ofc, you can do that also when you are alone, but it's way much more fun/interesting to do it together.
- The UNEXPLORED KNOWLEDGE : Playing 2x2 is so different than playing 1x1. I already beat several times GM players, only because I have a better knowledge than them about how 2x2 has to be played. And this is something that might be really interesting to discover how professional players will play it if there are money around it.
- The EXCITING GAMEPLAY and TEAMPLAY : You can do different build order than in 1x1, just for one main reason, your ally can help you. Let's take an example : my ally knows that he can open reapers vs Protoss, I'll help him with my stalkers/phx if oracle arriving in his base. This teamplay is something that make 2x2 way more exciting for me than the 1x1.
Also, 2x2 are more intensive than 1x1, at least in the early game, people use to do a lot of pressure build order while macroing (at least at "my" level) and I feel this is so much more enjoyable to watch that a 10 min FFE vs Z with no actions...
So what are you waiting for? Do tournaments!
And this is the main reason for doing this blog. Congratz to MLG who organised 2x2 tournaments, congratz to Lewelys who made his Millenium Cup with a 2x2 match, congratz to day9 talking about doing 2x2 tournament, keep it doing this might be THE solution for sc2!
If tournaments get more popular, more players will get interested in it, and as explained in the AT part, when you train for 2x2, you are not anymore alone and this might help a lot for the mindset of a lot of players "getting bored of sc2 and leaving for an other game..."
Also, lot of people doesn't play 2x2 just because it's not popular... So try it at serious level and see how enjoyable it can be!
StarCraft 2 is a really nice game, David Kim and his team are doing huge balancing job, stop criticazing the game when the solution might in it... =]
Is 2x2 balanced?
MAINLY, YES! After some thousand games, I'm pretty certain that 2x2 is quite balanced. Even if in WoL, TZ cheese was freaking good against protoss, with the mama core and oracle, it's now more balanced, but of course, you have to do proper veto map depending the race you are playing. Protoss players shouldn't keep separated base map for example... ZZ shouldn't keep map where they can't expand, and so on... The build order are also slightly different from 1x1, just as a Protoss than I am, I feel like 9 ou 12 scout is ALWAYS quiet important...
The only balanced problem that I know, are feeded strats and some eco cheese when an opponent leave the game at start. But that can be easily fixed by blizzard 
Also, I insist that in my point of view, 3x3 and 4x4 are losing a lot of interest, when I talk about teamgames, I'm mainly talking about 2x2 in SC2 and LoL 3x3 and 5x5...
Do what ever you want, you will never be a good 2x2 player if you don't have a good macro, macro also exist at 100 % in 2x2, just as in 1x1 ! All the games I play goes in macro but CAN start with some pressure (3 stalkers reapers for example) and it's in general easy to win if people all-in us, cuz we know how to hold it.
I also would like to end by this. A lot of ppl use to say "OMG 2x2 is for noobs, you get reach master with stupid cheese and no skills".
Well, it's true that you can reach master by cheese, but just FYI, it's the same for 1x1.
And to all people saying taht 2x2 requires no skill, just try to stay one whole season in top master 2x2 AND with a record of more than 60/40, then you will realise how dumb you were.
Cheers,
Zepiii
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You need to accept that starcraft 2 is not a _popular_ game. It is a challenging game that requires a lot of time investment. It's never going to be on the same level as LoL, never. Accept it and love it for the niche game it is and will continue to be and quit coming up with improbable solutions grounded in fantasy.
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Austria24422 Posts
The map pool is horrible for 2v2 and I wouldn't say it's balanced. Let's say your team is Z/P and you run into two zergs. Against a double 6 pool you're simply screwed unless you specifically play hyper safe which screws you over if they play standard. Some races and their build combinations just flat out beat others, no way around it.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Is 2x2 balanced?
MAINLY, YES! After some thousand games, I'm pretty certain that 2x2 is quite balanced
It so isn't ;_;
You can't defend certain pushes based on maps / map positions.
Some cheese is so hard to defend it silly. It seems very luck based. You can get to a point where certain pushes hit you before you even have scouted around the map. I do like to play 2v2 with my friend, its the only reason we would play SC2. We played at a diamond level since WOL, we have never played it extensively. When we played alot it was about 10 games per week and most of that was stopped due to silly builds we couldn't hold.
If specific 2v2 maps were made like 1v1 maps, i think 2v2 professionally could work, other than that it will just be a fun thing to watch pros do (imo)
On October 08 2013 21:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The map pool is horrible for 2v2 and I wouldn't say it's balanced. Let's say your team is Z/P and you run into two zergs. Against a double 6 pool you're simply screwed unless you specifically play hyper safe which screws you over if they play standard. Some races and their build combinations just flat out beat others, no way around it.
Chelsea fans to clever for this forum <333
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I think a 4v4 f2p must be a huge boost to starcraft.
from a spectator PoV i think the team games (2v2 3v3 4v4) need a little of UI improvement, to be enjoyable. like make a team color in observer mode. it's hard to identify the team if you see pink + green vs blue + red
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On October 08 2013 21:57 torm wrote:
You need to accept that starcraft 2 is not a _popular_ game. It is a challenging game that requires a lot of time investment. It's never going to be on the same level as LoL, never. Accept it and love it for the niche game it is and will continue to be and quit coming up with improbable solutions grounded in fantasy.
Did you come straight from a league stream with a giant LoL stick up yours? Stop fantasizing your own reality. SC2 is in ever growth and will surpass the trendy game for youngsters which is League of legends.
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The problem with 2v2 in tournaments is not necessarily balance, its more the view ability. In Dota or LoL it works because there are "only" 10 "players" which limits the amount of things that can happen at the same time. On a high level 2v2 it would be really hard to catch all the important pards and it would be a very hectic watching experience.
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The two problems cited here: ease of viewing and better maps, are easily solvable issues. It would just take a lot of willpower from the community and Blizzard both of which are lacking at the moment.
Coming from WoL as a masters team player, the sheer variety of builds and strange cheeses is what made it hard to have any consistent good games in team play, especially in 2v2. For every cheese in 1v1, there are 3 times as many to scout for (that can be even more effective and require equally unusual responses to fend off) in 2v2.
Still, I wish there were more team play tournaments (and especially better maps for it- see my signature) but I doubt that 2v2 would ever be some magic pill that "fixes" the popularity of SC2.
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On October 08 2013 21:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The map pool is horrible for 2v2 and I wouldn't say it's balanced. Let's say your team is Z/P and you run into two zergs. Against a double 6 pool you're simply screwed unless you specifically play hyper safe which screws you over if they play standard. Some races and their build combinations just flat out beat others, no way around it.
Lol. Sorry, but when I'm playing with a normal ally Z, doing my usual 9 scout, if we see opponents doing double 6 pool, we instantly know that we won the game =]
What you are talking about is a lack of knowledge, not balanced stuff.
Most people saying it's not balanced just never reached top master lvl in 2x2 and think it's because it's not balanced, but let's be honest, it's just because they suck 
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I'd like to see 3v3 where one of each race is compulsory, simple solution to any balance complaints.
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On October 08 2013 22:01 OneSpeed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 21:57 torm wrote:
You need to accept that starcraft 2 is not a _popular_ game. It is a challenging game that requires a lot of time investment. It's never going to be on the same level as LoL, never. Accept it and love it for the niche game it is and will continue to be and quit coming up with improbable solutions grounded in fantasy. Did you come straight from a league stream with a giant LoL stick up yours? Stop fantasizing your own reality. SC2 is in ever growth and will surpass the trendy game for youngsters which is League of legends.
Denial is the first step to acceptance. Embrace it
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Its true, team games need to be better to prolong the life of the game. That is one area that they took a step down in from WC3. Team games in WC3 were fun, even if certain race combinations were arguably stronger. It was possible to still have fun in WC3 even if you lost. Maybe you did a sweet hero surround or held out for a long time vs superior forces. Battles actually lasted a while. In SC2 the 30 second battles in 1v1 become 15 second battles in 2v2. One would think 2v2 battles would be much longer but, they are shorter because the dps is so high. Also, custom mods were big in WC3. I remember most of my friends left 1v1 and usually went to 4v4 or the like. Then some of them went on to play DOTA all stars, still in the WC3 client. So while they left 1v1, they were still online and we could still chat etc and play some team games together, which was fun. In SC2, most of my friends just quit and play other games rather than move to team games or play custom mods in the client.
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On October 08 2013 22:15 2vs2.Zepiii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 21:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The map pool is horrible for 2v2 and I wouldn't say it's balanced. Let's say your team is Z/P and you run into two zergs. Against a double 6 pool you're simply screwed unless you specifically play hyper safe which screws you over if they play standard. Some races and their build combinations just flat out beat others, no way around it. Lol. Sorry, but when I'm playing with a normal ally Z, doing my usual 9 scout, if we see opponents doing double 6 pool, we instantly know that we won the game =] What you are talking about is a lack of knowledge, not balanced stuff. Most people saying it's not balanced just never reacher top master and think it's because it's not balanced, but let's be honest, it's just because they suck
I agree with you.
Most people say that team games are not balanced, but they have no reasons for this. Team games aren't played enough to know whether or not there are imbalanced strategies or not. You can look at any of the common 1v1 strategies that pop up, where players immediately default to "This strategy is completely broken, it needs to be fixed", while 3 weeks later, the strategy is null and void due to metagame shifts.
I say this as a master league 1v1 player, and previously top master team game player. I think team games have serious potential as a serious boon for the spectating portion of the game. The non-serious team games we've seen played at tournament show matches have been phenomenal, to say the least. Infinitely more entertaining than a 1v1.
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still remember that 2on2 tournament with prize money, where stephano&bling or Mana&ThorZaiN played vs great 2on2 teams like kAra&delphi or CatZ&Drewbie.
that was so awesome.
i think team matches should get 1 2on2 bo3 in. all of them.
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On October 08 2013 21:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The map pool is horrible for 2v2 and I wouldn't say it's balanced. Let's say your team is Z/P and you run into two zergs. Against a double 6 pool you're simply screwed unless you specifically play hyper safe which screws you over if they play standard. Some races and their build combinations just flat out beat others, no way around it.
That's not true. In WoL playing against TZ was a nightmare, especially with Protoss, because of stupid stuff like lings/Hellions or lings/maraus with the Overlord giving sight of the wall, but in HotS all those problems are gone. I don't see how a double 6 pool would be a problem for a PZ team, especially as Protoss always has the possibility to opt for a 10 gate (with good pressure options if they played standard, without being hopelessly behind) to be impervious against those kind of rushes.
The map pool has improved, though there are still too many 2011 undefendable maps that you just have to veto if you don't play ZZ or TZ.
It's a pity 2v2 isn't played in competitive team leagues; clanwars in War3 often included one 2v2, and that was really fun to watch.
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i have a few ideas.
1) have two different observers, one to follow each team. viewers can chose which stream to follow. at a live event, there can be two screens (not next to each other)
2) have first-person cams. viewers choose which person to follow. (there will be a main obs as well). at a live event, the screens can be to the side.
3) have a large screen in the center that focuses on battles and smaller screens on the side to focus on drops/activity at the bases. the smaller screens can be placed relative to the spawn location so they act like magnifying glasses. in fact, they should do this for 1v1.
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starcraft 2 pressure people to play 1v1 ladder too much.. even in broodwar the most fun was playing teamgames, bgh and ums
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On October 08 2013 21:57 torm wrote:
You need to accept that starcraft 2 is not a _popular_ game. It is a challenging game that requires a lot of time investment. It's never going to be on the same level as LoL, never. Accept it and love it for the niche game it is and will continue to be and quit coming up with improbable solutions grounded in fantasy.
Did you copy paste this answer from one of the SC2 APOCALYPSE! threads in order to be "first!" or did you actually read the op then decide to share that worthless poopnugget of brilliance? If anything I think this guy has found perfect way to love and accept a niche game. He's promoting a niche format of a niche game you can't get any more niche-loving than this guy.
Props to OP I will definitely play more 2v2 in these coming days.
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On October 08 2013 22:31 GizmoPT wrote:
starcraft 2 pressure people to play 1v1 ladder too much.. even in broodwar the most fun was playing teamgames, bgh and ums
I agree, they really should make GM available for arranged teams in 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4.
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SC2 isn't just an accessible game for the vast majority of video gamers. You can blame this on game mechanics or modes, you aren't going to pull in a playerbase that there was 3 years ago. People need to accept this fact and focus on making the game more enjoyable for the existing audience because it is dwindling every time a major new game is released.
This isn't 2004, RTS as a genre is nearly dead. You can only innovate so much before players just move onto other enjoyable games.
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EPT
