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On October 08 2013 22:15 2vs2.Zepiii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 21:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The map pool is horrible for 2v2 and I wouldn't say it's balanced. Let's say your team is Z/P and you run into two zergs. Against a double 6 pool you're simply screwed unless you specifically play hyper safe which screws you over if they play standard. Some races and their build combinations just flat out beat others, no way around it. Lol. Sorry, but when I'm playing with a normal ally Z, doing my usual 9 scout, if we see opponents doing double 6 pool, we instantly know that we won the game =] What you are talking about is a lack of knowledge, not balanced stuff. Most people saying it's not balanced just never reached top master lvl in 2x2 and think it's because it's not balanced, but let's be honest, it's just because they suck 
Uh, 2Z is by far and away the dumbest MU for PZ next to TZ. I'd most certainly agree with him. I'm not sure what knowledge YOU are talking about though?
As for viewership, if you really want to watch 2v2 then support the streamers. There are tons of other 2v2 streamers out there aside from protech. I doubt there will ever seriously be a tournament scene around 2v2. Sure, maybe a random event or two(there have not been any since the end of the coL tournaments as far as I know..) but it still won't ever be as big as you're hoping. :/
but hey, that's just my 2v2 experience...
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.sc2ranks.com/character/us/754745/Kyo/hots/2v2t
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I played thousands of 2on2s in SCBW and i loved it. In my oppinion sc2 2on2 is lacking. The maps are horrible and non shared bases are nearly impossible to play (atleast it was in WoL).
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teamgames are for fun, but imo it isnt suited for huge tournaments since it lacks diversity.
Also even trying to compare 2vs2 to LoL or dota is just...ugh...common sense man...
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I have never understood what 2xTerrans can do vs 2xProtoss Proxy Oracle with a double rush on either player :S
Seems like you can do so many extremly powerful cheeses.
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On October 08 2013 21:53 2vs2.Zepiii wrote:
Let's go to LoL, it's free and it's teamgames, so even if I suck it's might not be me the problem
If you "suck", then you always are a problem, except that in 1vs1 you always are the problem and in team game you might be one of the problems, i.e. you can always blame the other players rather than reflect on yourself. 
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On October 08 2013 22:01 xuanzue wrote:
I think a 4v4 f2p must be a huge boost to starcraft.
This is possible the smartest idea I've ever heard regarding to the "death of SC".
Even better would be a f2p XvAI ladder + giving out beta keys for future Blizz games to the top teams of this leagues. Just to boost popularity.
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I don´t think 2v2s would be fun to watch, because the observing could not keep up. Remember, in 1v1 each side has one screen, so has the observer (hence the viewer). In 2v2 there are 2 screen per side where micro happens, while there is still only one viewer screen. I assume the viewing experience would suffer from jumping between different spots a lot more, but I´m just assuming, of course.
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I really do agree that if team games were better balanced (mainly map issues) and promoted more THE GAME WOULD BE MORE FUN. And fun = popular* (usually).
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On October 08 2013 22:42 Glorfindel! wrote:
I have never understood what 2xTerrans can do vs 2xProtoss Proxy Oracle with a double rush on either player :S
Seems like you can do so many extremly powerful cheeses.
One of the reasons I feel shared bases are an absolute must in 2v2 games. If you have shared bases, it just becomes the same thing as a 1v1 with a proxy stargate - except with 2x as many units - both teammates need to scout and respond accordingly.
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it's the wrong way to look both game.
League is designed for team play
SC2 is not
Think about 1v1 and team sport, tennis for example, single always has higher viewership than doubles
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Austria24422 Posts
On October 08 2013 22:15 2vs2.Zepiii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 21:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The map pool is horrible for 2v2 and I wouldn't say it's balanced. Let's say your team is Z/P and you run into two zergs. Against a double 6 pool you're simply screwed unless you specifically play hyper safe which screws you over if they play standard. Some races and their build combinations just flat out beat others, no way around it. Lol. Sorry, but when I'm playing with a normal ally Z, doing my usual 9 scout, if we see opponents doing double 6 pool, we instantly know that we won the game =] What you are talking about is a lack of knowledge, not balanced stuff. Most people saying it's not balanced just never reached top master lvl in 2x2 and think it's because it's not balanced, but let's be honest, it's just because they suck
On maps where you're not sharing a base? You're screwed. They kill your ally, contain you and that's it. That's why I said the map pool sucks. I'm pretty sure you can't defend absolutely everything with all race combinations, much less so on every map. There are too many options to stay safe against anything in the early game without playing super overly safe
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Fact of the matter is, most gamers aren't looking for tough competition and hard work, they're just looking for some fun, entertaining way of killing time, which is what LoL is best at. No pressure, not nearly as much practice/skill/time required, support from teammates, etc etc Starcraft will always be for a different crowd, for the crowd that loves competition, hard work, and investing a lot of time... that crowd is rare when it comes to gaming tbh.
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On October 08 2013 22:55 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 22:15 2vs2.Zepiii wrote:On October 08 2013 21:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The map pool is horrible for 2v2 and I wouldn't say it's balanced. Let's say your team is Z/P and you run into two zergs. Against a double 6 pool you're simply screwed unless you specifically play hyper safe which screws you over if they play standard. Some races and their build combinations just flat out beat others, no way around it. Lol. Sorry, but when I'm playing with a normal ally Z, doing my usual 9 scout, if we see opponents doing double 6 pool, we instantly know that we won the game =] What you are talking about is a lack of knowledge, not balanced stuff. Most people saying it's not balanced just never reached top master lvl in 2x2 and think it's because it's not balanced, but let's be honest, it's just because they suck On maps where you're not sharing a base? You're screwed. They kill your ally, contain you and that's it. That's why I said the map pool sucks. I'm pretty sure you can't defend absolutely everything with all race combinations, much less so on every map. There are too many options to stay safe against anything in the early game without playing super overly safe
It's an issue with non-shared maps, not races or builds.
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I never knew why the SC2 community never embraced team games. Its the most fun I've had playing SC2 and it can be quite challenging and exciting with many more strats and depth than 1v1.
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I agree with the OP in the sense that 2s is hard at top masters. At high levels you don't really see much cheese and it is MOSTLY macro games with a lot of harassment. I also DO think that 2s is balanced (high masters only) and more enjoyable. And this is coming from a player that has reached both ladder ranking of #1 in 1s and 2s.
In my WoL days... I was mostly a 2s specialist with my T race. Played with friends and we always were top masters if not ranked #1. I rarely played 1s. We played macro games 90% of the time. After a few seasons all of my friends quit... so I quit as well.
After a few months I returned to the game and started to 1s. In my first season I got to masters #1 rank with T. After just one season I got bored. I quit again.
Fast forward... And HotS came out. T was boring for me...so I switched to P. My very first season of 1s I got to rank #1 masters again (with only macro - I can't really cheese (too much luck involved tbh). After 1 season I quit .... yet again.
I just returned to SC2 again. Now i just hang around the channel 'adopt a newb) ... and help lowbies improve. I play with them, for instance.
In my long histroy of SC1 and SC2... I have always enjoyed 2s more than 1s. As long I had someone to play with I would play 2s. I played more seasons of 2s than 1s. I have played a ton of top players in both 1s and 2s. And i can tell you that unless you really try high level 2s, you won't know how balanced it is (it is not perfect balance though).
For example, just like in 1s you can say 4 gate is hard to hold in low levels... it is so EASY to hold at high levels. In 2s vs ZZ.. at low levels if they both 6 pool ... they probably win EASY. but from my OWN experience they could kill my partner but I would kill both Z later on ( using T 90% we win).
All my friends have quit the game. and it's hard for me to get back into playing 1s or 2s  ..
If I only had constant people to practice with 1s or 2s... I would for sure be more active.
Love you all.
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Austria24422 Posts
But overall, let's face it. Unless you have very specific 2v2 decisionmaking the chances of dying to random shit are way higher than 1v1 - where tons of people are already complaining about it. That's pretty much exactly what a casual player wants to avoid
Like, I got to rank 30 masters or so with a friend based on mechanics and holding off silly all ins alone. I just don't think that's fun for casual players. That's why we stopped taking it seriously after a while and just do fun aggressive stuff now. It can be fun, yes. But only if the maps weren't as easy to cheese on and if you could actually take a healthy amount of bases to macro off.
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On October 08 2013 22:55 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 22:15 2vs2.Zepiii wrote:On October 08 2013 21:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The map pool is horrible for 2v2 and I wouldn't say it's balanced. Let's say your team is Z/P and you run into two zergs. Against a double 6 pool you're simply screwed unless you specifically play hyper safe which screws you over if they play standard. Some races and their build combinations just flat out beat others, no way around it. Lol. Sorry, but when I'm playing with a normal ally Z, doing my usual 9 scout, if we see opponents doing double 6 pool, we instantly know that we won the game =] What you are talking about is a lack of knowledge, not balanced stuff. Most people saying it's not balanced just never reached top master lvl in 2x2 and think it's because it's not balanced, but let's be honest, it's just because they suck On maps where you're not sharing a base? You're screwed. They kill your ally, contain you and that's it. That's why I said the map pool sucks. I'm pretty sure you can't defend absolutely everything with all race combinations, much less so on every map. There are too many options to stay safe against anything in the early game without playing super overly safe
This is why in the first thread, I talked about doing proper veto. As at each start of game in WCS, there are veto just as it has to be done for 2x2.
However, even on non shared based, double 6pool is easily holdable, this is definitly not where I would hatch first if I were Z, but probably 10p way much better if I want to be safe but still be able to put some pressure on.
However, I agree that on some maps, it's not balanced, this is why veto are very important.
To everyone claiming something is too powerful or something is underpowered, just check top world 2x2 here (http://nios.kr/sc2/global/2v2/hots/) and you will see that there are all kind of combo at the top level !
Next time I hold a double 6pool while streaming, I'll higlight it then, might be useful
PS : On shared maps, I hold it alone in general =] And with a normal 14 14 my ally rape them easily after that, and remember, I 9 scouted it so he can easily adapt if he planned to hatch first.
This is what I talked in first post : EXCITING TEAMPLAY
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Dunno about 2v2 but i would like to see every team game starting with 4v4 as first game in series.
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On October 08 2013 22:57 ffadicted wrote:
Fact of the matter is, most gamers aren't looking for tough competition and hard work, they're just looking for some fun, entertaining way of killing time, which is what LoL is best at. No pressure, not nearly as much practice/skill/time required, support from teammates, etc etc Starcraft will always be for a different crowd, for the crowd that loves competition, hard work, and investing a lot of time... that crowd is rare when it comes to gaming tbh.
Thats funny. I absolutely despise team games. I know I'm in the minority, but I find them infuriating. Unless I'm playing with someone in a coordinated manner through vent/skype or something, it's a frustrating experience every time. I can handle losing because I was outplayed by my opponent, I can't handle losing because I was paired with idiots. I don't at all agree that there's no pressure.
Not to mention the screaming infant BM there is in every team game from FPS to MMOs.
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People need to understand it is not the money, the community, or the pressure of playing 1v1 games that is a problem with SC2. It is just the game itself. If the game is good, it will do well.
E-sport games need sustainability, and SC2 has very little of that. Changing it to a 2v2 or some team game is not going give it sustainability.
(And, yes, LoL and DotA are both great games.)
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EPT
