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On October 09 2013 03:10 DinosaurJones wrote:
I think it would be really fun. For everyone else that plays 2s, do you just use in-game type chat? Or do you use skype/raidcall or some sort of voice chat?
2v2 is a lot of fun. I play PZ with a good friend (and sometimes PT with another good friend). We use Skype. In-game chat does not work. I've tried a few random 2v2 and that is alright too, but playing in an arranged team (especially with people you know) is a lot more fun and gives better games. But, even playing with friends you've met through laddering 1v1 is cool, too.
I recommend it, playing PZ with my friend in 2v2 is the most fun I have in SC2 and approximately half my total games are team games (with most of these in 2v2). Sure, it is not totally balanced and the maps suck, but if you go into it not expecting a a balanced game, you should be alright. You will rage though from time to time. Some of the cheese can be infuriating.
But suck it up, take a deep breath, have a laugh with your teammate, and press "find match". You'll be right.
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On October 09 2013 03:28 PiPiGranDe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 02:24 -Kyo- wrote:On October 09 2013 00:50 PiPiGranDe wrote:
to be honest and with no offence intended... the people saying that 2s isn't balanced and that there is a build that beats everything or a certain combination of races that beat the other races.. is just people that have never played high high masters. these people probably loss to silly builds (double 6 pool.. canon rush + lings.. etc) or lose to very standard builds (lings/hellions, reaper/stalker) and just say the game in 2s is unbalanced.
i could also say that 4 gate is unbalanced too anything lower than platinum/diamond.
i have beaten protech numerous times in the past in 2s and have also played 2s with him. i'm sure he will agree with me that 2s for the most part is balanced. just a little bit less than 1s.
bottom line is: there is no build that beats everything or combination of races that beat others.
See my previous post which everyone seems to have ignored: + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431516¤tpage=2#21 There are most certainly things in 2v2 that are disproportionately good on certain maps/instances for certain MUs. And just for the record, protech isn't the end all be all of 2v2. You shouldn't look to him to explain balance to you... lol kyo i agree with you that certain mu and builds work better than others depending on map. but you can say the exact same thing in 1s. canon rushing is better is X map compared to Y map. drop play/muta/air protoss os a better strategy in X map compared to Y map... and so on. protech is definitely not a god. i used him as an example cus #1 he is a rigure known to the community that plays a lot of 2s and #2 he is ranked high in 2s... which means that he can give you good insight in high level 2s play, just like me.
The key phrase I used was 'disproportionately good'. You might die to a cannon rusher a few times but you learn to counter it, or be prepared for it. However in 2v2 with some MU, on some maps, even if you know what you're doing you have an incredibly hard time stopping it, and often end up being behind simply because of MU. That's not how the game should work.
In response to the bold... Just because you're ranked high in 2v2 doesn't mean you necessarily have good insight; I want to highlight this fact especially due to how easy it is to get high ranked in 2v2. Almost any GM player could easily, and I mean easily, remove protech from #1 RT 2v2 player if they cared at all/had some incentive to do so. This does not mean they have some insane understanding of 2v2 no one else has. It just means they have more skill to carry RT players through 2v2.
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Just want to touch on a few points, specifically concerning maps. Why do I know anything about this? Well, I was master in all WoL team play modes and I am also a mapmaker whose had his 2v2 maps played in some community tournaments.
Map rush distances need to be increased to allow for better macro games.
It is difficult to describe why this doesn't work, but I've tried it and for every problem it solves, you end up with a new problem. Basically, if you increase rush distance you are disallowing whole play styles and certain rushes. The threat of rushes needs to be there in order to prevent an automatic late game rush. Larger sizes also favor base trading which upsets balance. In general it favors ling muta style and bio drops and makes everything else suck. Rush distances need to be roughly the same as in 1v1 maps, that is to say, no bigger than TDA cross positions at the very most.
Separate v Shared bases.
I'm in the camp that says shared bases are the only way to go, unless there is some separate base layout that has yet to be discovered. Double proxies and forcefield ramp blocks are a problem on separate base maps. You shouldn't be able to section off two teammates from each other unless they make a strategic mistake (this goes for the center of the map as well)
Feeder Strats OP
Unless something has changed in hots, there are no feeder strats that are impossible to hold if you know how to respond. Granted, some of the strats are very strong and hard to hold, and many require such outside-the-box defensive strats that its nearly impossible to do the right thing the first time you see the strat. That said, there is a way to hold all of the feeder strats that I know of. If you are dying to a player that had their teammate leave at the start, you are just not playing properly. 2 players with 500 gas is always better than 1 player with 1000 gas. Just turtle until 400 supply and its gg. The idea that one player getting fed can tech faster and therefore win automatically is just not correct. Again, you just need to respond in a much different way than normal.
The map pool is bad.
This is true. it needs to improve. I keep thinking Blizzard is getting better at this but the most recent additions to the 2v2 pool have proved me wrong. (When will they figure out about cannon rush spots for christsake?)
For more discussion on maps see the below threads, its been discussed to death.
Competitive 2v2 maps
Why the 2v2 map pool is stunting the matchup
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Sc2 isn't a game that gets more fun the better you get. The better you get the more time consuming it is to maintain that. It isn't fun.
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On October 09 2013 05:01 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 03:28 PiPiGranDe wrote:On October 09 2013 02:24 -Kyo- wrote:On October 09 2013 00:50 PiPiGranDe wrote:
to be honest and with no offence intended... the people saying that 2s isn't balanced and that there is a build that beats everything or a certain combination of races that beat the other races.. is just people that have never played high high masters. these people probably loss to silly builds (double 6 pool.. canon rush + lings.. etc) or lose to very standard builds (lings/hellions, reaper/stalker) and just say the game in 2s is unbalanced.
i could also say that 4 gate is unbalanced too anything lower than platinum/diamond.
i have beaten protech numerous times in the past in 2s and have also played 2s with him. i'm sure he will agree with me that 2s for the most part is balanced. just a little bit less than 1s.
bottom line is: there is no build that beats everything or combination of races that beat others.
See my previous post which everyone seems to have ignored: + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431516¤tpage=2#21 There are most certainly things in 2v2 that are disproportionately good on certain maps/instances for certain MUs. And just for the record, protech isn't the end all be all of 2v2. You shouldn't look to him to explain balance to you... lol kyo i agree with you that certain mu and builds work better than others depending on map. but you can say the exact same thing in 1s. canon rushing is better is X map compared to Y map. drop play/muta/air protoss os a better strategy in X map compared to Y map... and so on. protech is definitely not a god. i used him as an example cus #1 he is a rigure known to the community that plays a lot of 2s and #2 he is ranked high in 2s... which means that he can give you good insight in high level 2s play, just like me. The key phrase I used was 'disproportionately good'. You might die to a cannon rusher a few times but you learn to counter it, or be prepared for it. However in 2v2 with some MU, on some maps, even if you know what you're doing you have an incredibly hard time stopping it, and often end up being behind simply because of MU. That's not how the game should work. In response to the bold... Just because you're ranked high in 2v2 doesn't mean you necessarily have good insight; I want to highlight this fact especially due to how easy it is to get high ranked in 2v2. Almost any GM player could easily, and I mean easily, remove protech from #1 RT 2v2 player if they cared at all/had some incentive to do so. This does not mean they have some insane understanding of 2v2 no one else has. It just means they have more skill to carry RT players through 2v2.
Examples please?
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All the criticism about 2v2 being unbalanced is unfair because, ultimately, 2v2 hasn't been well explored enough to say that there are not undiscovered but CORRECT responses to each situation.
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On October 09 2013 05:03 HeeroFX wrote:
Sc2 isn't a game that gets more fun the better you get. The better you get the more time consuming it is to maintain that. It isn't fun.
hm i actually think otherwise... it's harder to maintain a certain level, but if your ego isnt hung up on it, SC2 can still grow in fun for me  . like sometimes i just get some cool strategy ideas (after not having played for a whole week) and feel all giddy about it.
playing fast and accurate is in itself fun to me. i just recently started loving playing as fast as i can. i'm a guitar player and most of what i did in 5 years was trying to play as fast as i can. i started trying to translate that to sc2 now and it has become a new source of fun.
ey, i had a jump of 30apm after a week of not playing. can you imagine that? lol. like i used to play 140apm every single game, now i play 170 consistently. wtf!
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On October 09 2013 05:10 Nachtwind wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 05:01 -Kyo- wrote:On October 09 2013 03:28 PiPiGranDe wrote:On October 09 2013 02:24 -Kyo- wrote:On October 09 2013 00:50 PiPiGranDe wrote:
to be honest and with no offence intended... the people saying that 2s isn't balanced and that there is a build that beats everything or a certain combination of races that beat the other races.. is just people that have never played high high masters. these people probably loss to silly builds (double 6 pool.. canon rush + lings.. etc) or lose to very standard builds (lings/hellions, reaper/stalker) and just say the game in 2s is unbalanced.
i could also say that 4 gate is unbalanced too anything lower than platinum/diamond.
i have beaten protech numerous times in the past in 2s and have also played 2s with him. i'm sure he will agree with me that 2s for the most part is balanced. just a little bit less than 1s.
bottom line is: there is no build that beats everything or combination of races that beat others.
See my previous post which everyone seems to have ignored: + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431516¤tpage=2#21 There are most certainly things in 2v2 that are disproportionately good on certain maps/instances for certain MUs. And just for the record, protech isn't the end all be all of 2v2. You shouldn't look to him to explain balance to you... lol kyo i agree with you that certain mu and builds work better than others depending on map. but you can say the exact same thing in 1s. canon rushing is better is X map compared to Y map. drop play/muta/air protoss os a better strategy in X map compared to Y map... and so on. protech is definitely not a god. i used him as an example cus #1 he is a rigure known to the community that plays a lot of 2s and #2 he is ranked high in 2s... which means that he can give you good insight in high level 2s play, just like me. The key phrase I used was 'disproportionately good'. You might die to a cannon rusher a few times but you learn to counter it, or be prepared for it. However in 2v2 with some MU, on some maps, even if you know what you're doing you have an incredibly hard time stopping it, and often end up being behind simply because of MU. That's not how the game should work. In response to the bold... Just because you're ranked high in 2v2 doesn't mean you necessarily have good insight; I want to highlight this fact especially due to how easy it is to get high ranked in 2v2. Almost any GM player could easily, and I mean easily, remove protech from #1 RT 2v2 player if they cared at all/had some incentive to do so. This does not mean they have some insane understanding of 2v2 no one else has. It just means they have more skill to carry RT players through 2v2. Examples please?
I've played 3v3 and 4v4 far more than 2v2, but I imagine it's fairly similar in that if your team has a lone zerg and the other team has multiple zerg's, your lone zerg is gonna get double/tripple early pooled and it's very difficult for your allies to help.
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On October 09 2013 04:58 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 03:10 DinosaurJones wrote:
I think it would be really fun. For everyone else that plays 2s, do you just use in-game type chat? Or do you use skype/raidcall or some sort of voice chat? 2v2 is a lot of fun. I play PZ with a good friend (and sometimes PT with another good friend). We use Skype. In-game chat does not work. I've tried a few random 2v2 and that is alright too, but playing in an arranged team (especially with people you know) is a lot more fun and gives better games. But, even playing with friends you've met through laddering 1v1 is cool, too. I recommend it, playing PZ with my friend in 2v2 is the most fun I have in SC2 and approximately half my total games are team games (with most of these in 2v2). Sure, it is not totally balanced and the maps suck, but if you go into it not expecting a a balanced game, you should be alright. You will rage though from time to time. Some of the cheese can be infuriating. But suck it up, take a deep breath, have a laugh with your teammate, and press "find match". You'll be right.
Haha, no, I usually use Skype with one of my best friends from college. We used to do in-game chat, but once we started using skype, our win rate improved dramatically. We went from platinum 2v2 to Masters. Now, we hover at high diamond, we just don't have the time to make it into Masters, unfortunately.
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On October 09 2013 05:01 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 03:28 PiPiGranDe wrote:On October 09 2013 02:24 -Kyo- wrote:On October 09 2013 00:50 PiPiGranDe wrote:
to be honest and with no offence intended... the people saying that 2s isn't balanced and that there is a build that beats everything or a certain combination of races that beat the other races.. is just people that have never played high high masters. these people probably loss to silly builds (double 6 pool.. canon rush + lings.. etc) or lose to very standard builds (lings/hellions, reaper/stalker) and just say the game in 2s is unbalanced.
i could also say that 4 gate is unbalanced too anything lower than platinum/diamond.
i have beaten protech numerous times in the past in 2s and have also played 2s with him. i'm sure he will agree with me that 2s for the most part is balanced. just a little bit less than 1s.
bottom line is: there is no build that beats everything or combination of races that beat others.
See my previous post which everyone seems to have ignored: + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431516¤tpage=2#21 There are most certainly things in 2v2 that are disproportionately good on certain maps/instances for certain MUs. And just for the record, protech isn't the end all be all of 2v2. You shouldn't look to him to explain balance to you... lol kyo i agree with you that certain mu and builds work better than others depending on map. but you can say the exact same thing in 1s. canon rushing is better is X map compared to Y map. drop play/muta/air protoss os a better strategy in X map compared to Y map... and so on. protech is definitely not a god. i used him as an example cus #1 he is a rigure known to the community that plays a lot of 2s and #2 he is ranked high in 2s... which means that he can give you good insight in high level 2s play, just like me. The key phrase I used was 'disproportionately good'. You might die to a cannon rusher a few times but you learn to counter it, or be prepared for it. However in 2v2 with some MU, on some maps, even if you know what you're doing you have an incredibly hard time stopping it, and often end up being behind simply because of MU. That's not how the game should work. In response to the bold... Just because you're ranked high in 2v2 doesn't mean you necessarily have good insight; I want to highlight this fact especially due to how easy it is to get high ranked in 2v2. Almost any GM player could easily, and I mean easily, remove protech from #1 RT 2v2 player if they cared at all/had some incentive to do so. This does not mean they have some insane understanding of 2v2 no one else has. It just means they have more skill to carry RT players through 2v2.
agreed as well. but tbh... no build beats all other builds. maps for 2s are very sucky currently. with better maps, 2s would be undeniably better. but even with current maps, if you know what is coming, it is easily stoppable. just need good scouting.
in regards to what you said about protech, i agree. but not 'any' GM could get to a top #1 RT (i don't care for RT nor i was talking about RT but AT). i have achieved #1 masters in both 1s and 2s and the mentality to play both games is different. just because someone is good in 1s... that doesn't make them good in 2s. So a GM in 1s won't necessarily mean high masters in 2s (assuming they tried hard). i used to have plenty of high masters friends in 1s but didn't really understand 2s much. builds that are done in 1s don't necessarily translate in 2s. and many 1s players don't understand this. but yes, in general if you are good in 1s, you have better chances of being good in 2s.
and to be honest.. top master team vs top master team at high levls is mostly aggresive play and not cheese. often time going for 2-3 bases. sometimes you see 4+ bases. i don't think many people have experienced this or seen this. (i talk about AT not RT).
certain maps suck for certain mu and they are unfair for certain combination of races. but they can vetoed. everybody says ZZ is hard to play against. i really disagree with that. for me the hardest to play against has to be TZ.
i win most of my games vs ZZ. there is only so much that can be done in ZZ
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the problem i have with this personally is that team games are dreadful in sc2. in war3, team games (and FFA... war3 FFA is the greatest RTS experience EVER, but i'm pretty sure that will always remain a niche thing) were fucking amazing, in sc2 it's just two people playing 1v1 together. what i'm trying to say is the amount of team coordination you can, or at least you HAVE TO, do is much less signifcant than in war3. and that just isn't interesting to me. might as well watch an easier to follow and already balanced and tailored for viewing 1v1. of course things could be changed but i think the core mechanics for sc2 are really not very conducive to team games in the first place, whereas in war3 there were enough elements that allowed for a rich and very different from 1on1 experience in the team format (correlations between heroes, items, creeping camps alone or together, upkeep, etc.) this is true even more so for FFA, but let's not get into that.
what i would like to see though would be to just include like one 2v2 match in a teamleague format, like if you have a bo7 SPL match you make the 3rd or 4th map a 2on2. that would be fine and would mix things up a bit without throwing everything off balance.
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You say way much more popular and 2x2/3x3/etc to describe versus modes..???
Anyway, I like what TeslasPigeon said on the first page: SC2 isn't as accessable of a game to most gamers. It's quite the niche genre, it's on the more expensive side of price tags for games, it's got a damn competitive ladder (which is why I feel you shouldn't complain about masters) and, as stated, the fanbase can be knocked down as time goes on when new games are released. It's the same for any game regarding my last comment.
You can say LoL won't die, but it will. It'll dwindle as time goes on, maybe not as much as some think. Personally, I believe a lot of people who play League are/were fans of PvP on mmo's such as WoW.. A lot of people abandoned WoW over time due to the expansions being letdowns and whatnot. Blizzard has made both SC2 and WoW, and if SC2 is caught in the middle of what I consider a very plausible but overlooked competition between 2 major pc titles, it's going to suffer in some way more than it would normally.
I still don't think you should've brought League into the discussion of "2v2" or multiplayer tournament play. I know for a fact that many SC2 fans do not enjoy watching 2v2 as much as 1v1. It's very different but not completely different. SC2 isn't designed well for team games, at least in my opinion. If it were balanced separately from 1v1, then maybe it'd be more popular than it currently is (that's a good idea, actually).
Either way, I don't see 2v2 going anywhere as far as 1v1 has come/gone.
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Papua New Guinea1059 Posts
Isn't ling helion still broken in 2v2?
(I'm a noob)
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Not a tourney that i would call 2v2 tourney only because the first game in RO5 is 2s and the rest are 1s lol. Whatever.
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If only Blizzard had released an expansion since then.
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make the maps bigger and make tournaments be Protoss , Zerg and terran vs Protoss Zerg and Terran only ! No other combination !! this is intresting
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EPT
