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On October 11 2013 01:53 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:11 Clarty wrote:
I think even if SC2 was undisputably the greatest RTS of all time, with amazing Battle.net 2.0 and all the custom games of WC3, it still would have been beaten by Dota 2 and Lol. The average gamer is not interested in RTS games because they are so difficult to even be OK at. Most BW players never touched 1v1, they just stuck around playing stuff like BGH and UMS maps. Now there is an even easier game in the form of the MOBA which still provides the 'strategy' fix of RTS without any difficult mechanics and team mates you can blame for any personal mistakes.
Ultimately the slow decline of SC2 is only tangentially related to the game itself. Its more about how RTS as a genre has almost ceased to exist, due to the fact that easier strategy games (MOBA) appeal to the masses more easily. Once they somehow figure out a way to dumb down the MOBA we will see Dota 2 and Lol die in turn. Dumb down MOBAs? How is that even possible? I dont think its possible to make lol even easier without destroying the competetive aspect. I dotn want to say that i cant respect the competetive scene, just saying that there is no more room to dumb it down without making the competition a joke. If the history of WoW for the kast 6 years has taught us anything, it's that you can ALWAYS dumb down more. And find people who like it. Maybe take an ability away from the champions, now you have only one ability and right click. Maybe have the abilities select themselves. There are definitely ways to make to MOBA games even easier. LoL took out last hitting, couriers and denying, huge parts of the DotA skillset and replaced them with nothing. And people apparently loved it.
There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D
LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it)
Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^
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On October 11 2013 01:50 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 23:35 Alex1Sun wrote:
I still feel that quite a bit of game design can be fixed by better maps. For example why not have small areas of really strong defence buffs in strategic parts of the maps, so that smaller groups of units could defend against deathballs though superior micro? Why not have smaller and more spread-out expansions to force multiple small skirmishes? That is just two proposals. There are countless other potential map features that could revitalise the gameplay and make it much more enjoyable to watch!
I fully agree with the rest of the OP. There is just no way of adding a defenders advantage for a group of few units while at the same time not also adding a defenders advantage to the deathball --> Even more turtling. Sc2 is just way too structurally unsound for any easy fix here. All Blizzard can do at the moment is too overbuff harass units, thats really the only way to reward more action and multitasking due to the unsound economy.
Stronger defensive deathball does not change the deathball.
Making the strongest defending stance even stronger does not make it worse since its already the strongest. The way to circumvent defenders advantage is going to be the same as right now, hit multiple places at once with small numbers of troops. With better defenders advantage it would be easier to defend the spread out attack by splitting the armies, in which case the attacker will glob up into a deathball, you would then make a deathball he can't break so he has to split up his army. If you decide to base race with your deathball he retreats his deathball into defenders advantage stoppiing your attempt to base race.
Its important to tip the scales in the defenders favor. Not necessarily through high ground advantage, but just some kind of defenders advantage (for example, PvP is SOOOO much better because of MSC, same with Tanks in TvT)
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On October 11 2013 02:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 01:53 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:11 Clarty wrote:
I think even if SC2 was undisputably the greatest RTS of all time, with amazing Battle.net 2.0 and all the custom games of WC3, it still would have been beaten by Dota 2 and Lol. The average gamer is not interested in RTS games because they are so difficult to even be OK at. Most BW players never touched 1v1, they just stuck around playing stuff like BGH and UMS maps. Now there is an even easier game in the form of the MOBA which still provides the 'strategy' fix of RTS without any difficult mechanics and team mates you can blame for any personal mistakes.
Ultimately the slow decline of SC2 is only tangentially related to the game itself. Its more about how RTS as a genre has almost ceased to exist, due to the fact that easier strategy games (MOBA) appeal to the masses more easily. Once they somehow figure out a way to dumb down the MOBA we will see Dota 2 and Lol die in turn. Dumb down MOBAs? How is that even possible? I dont think its possible to make lol even easier without destroying the competetive aspect. I dotn want to say that i cant respect the competetive scene, just saying that there is no more room to dumb it down without making the competition a joke. If the history of WoW for the kast 6 years has taught us anything, it's that you can ALWAYS dumb down more. And find people who like it. Maybe take an ability away from the champions, now you have only one ability and right click. Maybe have the abilities select themselves. There are definitely ways to make to MOBA games even easier. LoL took out last hitting, couriers and denying, huge parts of the DotA skillset and replaced them with nothing. And people apparently loved it. There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it) Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^
Chess is the most dumbed down game. Simple unit movements, no APM required, no resources to gather.
Still is complex to play.
No matter how simplified a system competition still breeds from it. Bolt is no less an athlete than Nadal just because running has less mechanics than tennis.
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On October 11 2013 02:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 02:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:53 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:11 Clarty wrote:
I think even if SC2 was undisputably the greatest RTS of all time, with amazing Battle.net 2.0 and all the custom games of WC3, it still would have been beaten by Dota 2 and Lol. The average gamer is not interested in RTS games because they are so difficult to even be OK at. Most BW players never touched 1v1, they just stuck around playing stuff like BGH and UMS maps. Now there is an even easier game in the form of the MOBA which still provides the 'strategy' fix of RTS without any difficult mechanics and team mates you can blame for any personal mistakes.
Ultimately the slow decline of SC2 is only tangentially related to the game itself. Its more about how RTS as a genre has almost ceased to exist, due to the fact that easier strategy games (MOBA) appeal to the masses more easily. Once they somehow figure out a way to dumb down the MOBA we will see Dota 2 and Lol die in turn. Dumb down MOBAs? How is that even possible? I dont think its possible to make lol even easier without destroying the competetive aspect. I dotn want to say that i cant respect the competetive scene, just saying that there is no more room to dumb it down without making the competition a joke. If the history of WoW for the kast 6 years has taught us anything, it's that you can ALWAYS dumb down more. And find people who like it. Maybe take an ability away from the champions, now you have only one ability and right click. Maybe have the abilities select themselves. There are definitely ways to make to MOBA games even easier. LoL took out last hitting, couriers and denying, huge parts of the DotA skillset and replaced them with nothing. And people apparently loved it. There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it) Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^ Chess is the most dumbed down game. Simple unit movements, no APM required, no resources to gather. Still is complex to play. No matter how simplified a system competition still breeds from it. Bolt is no less an athlete than Nadal just because running has less mechanics than tennis.
Pretty sure that makes 0.1 sense. Checkers.
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On October 11 2013 02:18 Velouria wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 02:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:53 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:11 Clarty wrote:
I think even if SC2 was undisputably the greatest RTS of all time, with amazing Battle.net 2.0 and all the custom games of WC3, it still would have been beaten by Dota 2 and Lol. The average gamer is not interested in RTS games because they are so difficult to even be OK at. Most BW players never touched 1v1, they just stuck around playing stuff like BGH and UMS maps. Now there is an even easier game in the form of the MOBA which still provides the 'strategy' fix of RTS without any difficult mechanics and team mates you can blame for any personal mistakes.
Ultimately the slow decline of SC2 is only tangentially related to the game itself. Its more about how RTS as a genre has almost ceased to exist, due to the fact that easier strategy games (MOBA) appeal to the masses more easily. Once they somehow figure out a way to dumb down the MOBA we will see Dota 2 and Lol die in turn. Dumb down MOBAs? How is that even possible? I dont think its possible to make lol even easier without destroying the competetive aspect. I dotn want to say that i cant respect the competetive scene, just saying that there is no more room to dumb it down without making the competition a joke. If the history of WoW for the kast 6 years has taught us anything, it's that you can ALWAYS dumb down more. And find people who like it. Maybe take an ability away from the champions, now you have only one ability and right click. Maybe have the abilities select themselves. There are definitely ways to make to MOBA games even easier. LoL took out last hitting, couriers and denying, huge parts of the DotA skillset and replaced them with nothing. And people apparently loved it. There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it) Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^ Chess is the most dumbed down game. Simple unit movements, no APM required, no resources to gather. Still is complex to play. No matter how simplified a system competition still breeds from it. Bolt is no less an athlete than Nadal just because running has less mechanics than tennis. Pretty sure that makes 0.1 sense. Checkers.
Map too large, pieces moving is too complex (especially in diagonals), and casuals don't want to invest time/money into acquiring otherwise useless game pieces.
TicTacToe only pls
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On October 11 2013 02:18 Velouria wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 02:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:53 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:11 Clarty wrote:
I think even if SC2 was undisputably the greatest RTS of all time, with amazing Battle.net 2.0 and all the custom games of WC3, it still would have been beaten by Dota 2 and Lol. The average gamer is not interested in RTS games because they are so difficult to even be OK at. Most BW players never touched 1v1, they just stuck around playing stuff like BGH and UMS maps. Now there is an even easier game in the form of the MOBA which still provides the 'strategy' fix of RTS without any difficult mechanics and team mates you can blame for any personal mistakes.
Ultimately the slow decline of SC2 is only tangentially related to the game itself. Its more about how RTS as a genre has almost ceased to exist, due to the fact that easier strategy games (MOBA) appeal to the masses more easily. Once they somehow figure out a way to dumb down the MOBA we will see Dota 2 and Lol die in turn. Dumb down MOBAs? How is that even possible? I dont think its possible to make lol even easier without destroying the competetive aspect. I dotn want to say that i cant respect the competetive scene, just saying that there is no more room to dumb it down without making the competition a joke. If the history of WoW for the kast 6 years has taught us anything, it's that you can ALWAYS dumb down more. And find people who like it. Maybe take an ability away from the champions, now you have only one ability and right click. Maybe have the abilities select themselves. There are definitely ways to make to MOBA games even easier. LoL took out last hitting, couriers and denying, huge parts of the DotA skillset and replaced them with nothing. And people apparently loved it. There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it) Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^ Chess is the most dumbed down game. Simple unit movements, no APM required, no resources to gather. Still is complex to play. No matter how simplified a system competition still breeds from it. Bolt is no less an athlete than Nadal just because running has less mechanics than tennis. Pretty sure that makes 0.1 sense. Checkers.
Edgar Allan Poe on Chess vs Draughts:
The faculty of resolution is possibly much invigorated by mathematical study, and especially by that highest branch of it, which, unjustly, and merely because of its retrograde operations, has been called, as if par excellence, analysis. Yet, to calculate is not in itself to analyze.
A chess player, for example, does one without the effort of the other. It follows that the game of chess, in its effects upon mental character, is greatly misunderstood.
I am not now writing a treatise, but simply prefacing a somewhat peculiar narrative by observations very much at random; I will, therefore take occasion to assert that the higher powers of the reflective intellect are decidedly and more usefully tasked by the unostentatious game of draughts than by the elaborate frivolity of chess.
In this latter where the pieces have different and bizarre motions, with various and variable values, what is only complex is mistaken (a not unusual error) for what is profound. The attention is here powerfully called into play. If it flag for an instant, an oversight is committed [“blunder”—the Editor] resulting in injury or defeat.
The possible moves being not only manifold but involute, the chances of such oversights are multiplied; and in nine cases out of ten it is more concentrative rather than the more acute player who conquers.
In draughts, on the contrary, where the motives are unique and have but little variation, the possibilities of inadvertence are diminished; and the mere attention being comparatively left unemployed, what advantages are obtained by either party are obtained by superior acumen.
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On October 11 2013 02:25 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 02:18 Velouria wrote:On October 11 2013 02:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:53 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:11 Clarty wrote:
I think even if SC2 was undisputably the greatest RTS of all time, with amazing Battle.net 2.0 and all the custom games of WC3, it still would have been beaten by Dota 2 and Lol. The average gamer is not interested in RTS games because they are so difficult to even be OK at. Most BW players never touched 1v1, they just stuck around playing stuff like BGH and UMS maps. Now there is an even easier game in the form of the MOBA which still provides the 'strategy' fix of RTS without any difficult mechanics and team mates you can blame for any personal mistakes.
Ultimately the slow decline of SC2 is only tangentially related to the game itself. Its more about how RTS as a genre has almost ceased to exist, due to the fact that easier strategy games (MOBA) appeal to the masses more easily. Once they somehow figure out a way to dumb down the MOBA we will see Dota 2 and Lol die in turn. Dumb down MOBAs? How is that even possible? I dont think its possible to make lol even easier without destroying the competetive aspect. I dotn want to say that i cant respect the competetive scene, just saying that there is no more room to dumb it down without making the competition a joke. If the history of WoW for the kast 6 years has taught us anything, it's that you can ALWAYS dumb down more. And find people who like it. Maybe take an ability away from the champions, now you have only one ability and right click. Maybe have the abilities select themselves. There are definitely ways to make to MOBA games even easier. LoL took out last hitting, couriers and denying, huge parts of the DotA skillset and replaced them with nothing. And people apparently loved it. There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it) Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^ Chess is the most dumbed down game. Simple unit movements, no APM required, no resources to gather. Still is complex to play. No matter how simplified a system competition still breeds from it. Bolt is no less an athlete than Nadal just because running has less mechanics than tennis. Pretty sure that makes 0.1 sense. Checkers. Map too large, pieces moving is too complex (especially in diagonals), and casuals don't want to invest time/money into acquiring otherwise useless game pieces. TicTacToe only pls
Too many variables, instead play Go. Only one type of piece and no set game board. Pure freeform play.
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On October 11 2013 01:36 Velouria wrote:
There is no problem, get over yourself. So what if SC2 or BW never got the chance they really deserved, a *free* game will always win, just be happy we still have a pretty damn good competitive scene.
Besides in 3 or 4 years there will be a new F2P game that will take over, and don't be surprised if at that time SC2:LotV > Dota / LoL / HoN.
One of the things that makes Starcraft standout is the longevity of the series, from 2000-2009 we had ONE fucking game. Broodwar. And in that span we watched countless competitive games rise and fall, or simply move to the next game in the series. Thats why we have Boxer and Flash and Jaedong, and everyone else will have ????... for 2 years, then fade away.
SC2 will be just fine.
I agree with you, I think too many people are whining because it seems to be the "popular" thing to do at the moment. For me personally, it's more fun to watch than to play, the unit compositions and match ups seem locked in the "meta" so i'm curious to see what the patch brings to the table.
The beauty of SC is that it's always evolving, and we still have one more expansion so I think it will continually get better.
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On October 11 2013 02:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 02:25 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On October 11 2013 02:18 Velouria wrote:On October 11 2013 02:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:53 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:11 Clarty wrote:
I think even if SC2 was undisputably the greatest RTS of all time, with amazing Battle.net 2.0 and all the custom games of WC3, it still would have been beaten by Dota 2 and Lol. The average gamer is not interested in RTS games because they are so difficult to even be OK at. Most BW players never touched 1v1, they just stuck around playing stuff like BGH and UMS maps. Now there is an even easier game in the form of the MOBA which still provides the 'strategy' fix of RTS without any difficult mechanics and team mates you can blame for any personal mistakes.
Ultimately the slow decline of SC2 is only tangentially related to the game itself. Its more about how RTS as a genre has almost ceased to exist, due to the fact that easier strategy games (MOBA) appeal to the masses more easily. Once they somehow figure out a way to dumb down the MOBA we will see Dota 2 and Lol die in turn. Dumb down MOBAs? How is that even possible? I dont think its possible to make lol even easier without destroying the competetive aspect. I dotn want to say that i cant respect the competetive scene, just saying that there is no more room to dumb it down without making the competition a joke. If the history of WoW for the kast 6 years has taught us anything, it's that you can ALWAYS dumb down more. And find people who like it. Maybe take an ability away from the champions, now you have only one ability and right click. Maybe have the abilities select themselves. There are definitely ways to make to MOBA games even easier. LoL took out last hitting, couriers and denying, huge parts of the DotA skillset and replaced them with nothing. And people apparently loved it. There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it) Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^ Chess is the most dumbed down game. Simple unit movements, no APM required, no resources to gather. Still is complex to play. No matter how simplified a system competition still breeds from it. Bolt is no less an athlete than Nadal just because running has less mechanics than tennis. Pretty sure that makes 0.1 sense. Checkers. Map too large, pieces moving is too complex (especially in diagonals), and casuals don't want to invest time/money into acquiring otherwise useless game pieces. TicTacToe only pls Too many variables, instead play Go. Only one type of piece and no set game board. Pure freeform play.
I roll rock paper scissors, though sometimes it's hard to keep track of what beats what. Then I just punch my opponent in the face screaming "FIST!" and subsequently declare victory.
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On October 11 2013 03:18 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 02:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:25 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On October 11 2013 02:18 Velouria wrote:On October 11 2013 02:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:53 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:11 Clarty wrote:
I think even if SC2 was undisputably the greatest RTS of all time, with amazing Battle.net 2.0 and all the custom games of WC3, it still would have been beaten by Dota 2 and Lol. The average gamer is not interested in RTS games because they are so difficult to even be OK at. Most BW players never touched 1v1, they just stuck around playing stuff like BGH and UMS maps. Now there is an even easier game in the form of the MOBA which still provides the 'strategy' fix of RTS without any difficult mechanics and team mates you can blame for any personal mistakes.
Ultimately the slow decline of SC2 is only tangentially related to the game itself. Its more about how RTS as a genre has almost ceased to exist, due to the fact that easier strategy games (MOBA) appeal to the masses more easily. Once they somehow figure out a way to dumb down the MOBA we will see Dota 2 and Lol die in turn. Dumb down MOBAs? How is that even possible? I dont think its possible to make lol even easier without destroying the competetive aspect. I dotn want to say that i cant respect the competetive scene, just saying that there is no more room to dumb it down without making the competition a joke. If the history of WoW for the kast 6 years has taught us anything, it's that you can ALWAYS dumb down more. And find people who like it. Maybe take an ability away from the champions, now you have only one ability and right click. Maybe have the abilities select themselves. There are definitely ways to make to MOBA games even easier. LoL took out last hitting, couriers and denying, huge parts of the DotA skillset and replaced them with nothing. And people apparently loved it. There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it) Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^ Chess is the most dumbed down game. Simple unit movements, no APM required, no resources to gather. Still is complex to play. No matter how simplified a system competition still breeds from it. Bolt is no less an athlete than Nadal just because running has less mechanics than tennis. Pretty sure that makes 0.1 sense. Checkers. Map too large, pieces moving is too complex (especially in diagonals), and casuals don't want to invest time/money into acquiring otherwise useless game pieces. TicTacToe only pls Too many variables, instead play Go. Only one type of piece and no set game board. Pure freeform play. I roll rock paper scissors, though sometimes it's hard to keep track of what beats what. Then I just punch my opponent in the face screaming "FIST!" and subsequently declare victory.
Go has only one type of piece and one type of move. Rock Papers Scissors needs 3 different pieces with variant results depending on piece interaction and hand speed dynamics. Also as too many variants such as lizard spock and hand grenade. Go much simpler. One type of piece one type of move no rules restrictions on where you can move, just pure strategy.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 11 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 03:18 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 02:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:25 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On October 11 2013 02:18 Velouria wrote:On October 11 2013 02:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:53 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:11 Clarty wrote:
I think even if SC2 was undisputably the greatest RTS of all time, with amazing Battle.net 2.0 and all the custom games of WC3, it still would have been beaten by Dota 2 and Lol. The average gamer is not interested in RTS games because they are so difficult to even be OK at. Most BW players never touched 1v1, they just stuck around playing stuff like BGH and UMS maps. Now there is an even easier game in the form of the MOBA which still provides the 'strategy' fix of RTS without any difficult mechanics and team mates you can blame for any personal mistakes.
Ultimately the slow decline of SC2 is only tangentially related to the game itself. Its more about how RTS as a genre has almost ceased to exist, due to the fact that easier strategy games (MOBA) appeal to the masses more easily. Once they somehow figure out a way to dumb down the MOBA we will see Dota 2 and Lol die in turn. Dumb down MOBAs? How is that even possible? I dont think its possible to make lol even easier without destroying the competetive aspect. I dotn want to say that i cant respect the competetive scene, just saying that there is no more room to dumb it down without making the competition a joke. If the history of WoW for the kast 6 years has taught us anything, it's that you can ALWAYS dumb down more. And find people who like it. Maybe take an ability away from the champions, now you have only one ability and right click. Maybe have the abilities select themselves. There are definitely ways to make to MOBA games even easier. LoL took out last hitting, couriers and denying, huge parts of the DotA skillset and replaced them with nothing. And people apparently loved it. There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it) Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^ Chess is the most dumbed down game. Simple unit movements, no APM required, no resources to gather. Still is complex to play. No matter how simplified a system competition still breeds from it. Bolt is no less an athlete than Nadal just because running has less mechanics than tennis. Pretty sure that makes 0.1 sense. Checkers. Map too large, pieces moving is too complex (especially in diagonals), and casuals don't want to invest time/money into acquiring otherwise useless game pieces. TicTacToe only pls Too many variables, instead play Go. Only one type of piece and no set game board. Pure freeform play. I roll rock paper scissors, though sometimes it's hard to keep track of what beats what. Then I just punch my opponent in the face screaming "FIST!" and subsequently declare victory. Go has only one type of piece and one type of move. Rock Papers Scissors needs 3 different pieces with variant results depending on piece interaction and hand speed dynamics. Also as too many variants such as lizard spock and hand grenade. Go much simpler. One type of piece one type of move no rules restrictions on where you can move, just pure strategy.
I wonder if there is a way dumb Go down too btw. It seems pretty challenging to do that.
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On October 11 2013 02:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 02:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:53 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:11 Clarty wrote:
I think even if SC2 was undisputably the greatest RTS of all time, with amazing Battle.net 2.0 and all the custom games of WC3, it still would have been beaten by Dota 2 and Lol. The average gamer is not interested in RTS games because they are so difficult to even be OK at. Most BW players never touched 1v1, they just stuck around playing stuff like BGH and UMS maps. Now there is an even easier game in the form of the MOBA which still provides the 'strategy' fix of RTS without any difficult mechanics and team mates you can blame for any personal mistakes.
Ultimately the slow decline of SC2 is only tangentially related to the game itself. Its more about how RTS as a genre has almost ceased to exist, due to the fact that easier strategy games (MOBA) appeal to the masses more easily. Once they somehow figure out a way to dumb down the MOBA we will see Dota 2 and Lol die in turn. Dumb down MOBAs? How is that even possible? I dont think its possible to make lol even easier without destroying the competetive aspect. I dotn want to say that i cant respect the competetive scene, just saying that there is no more room to dumb it down without making the competition a joke. If the history of WoW for the kast 6 years has taught us anything, it's that you can ALWAYS dumb down more. And find people who like it. Maybe take an ability away from the champions, now you have only one ability and right click. Maybe have the abilities select themselves. There are definitely ways to make to MOBA games even easier. LoL took out last hitting, couriers and denying, huge parts of the DotA skillset and replaced them with nothing. And people apparently loved it. There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it) Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^ Chess is the most dumbed down game. Simple unit movements, no APM required, no resources to gather. Still is complex to play. No matter how simplified a system competition still breeds from it. Bolt is no less an athlete than Nadal just because running has less mechanics than tennis.
To further your point, know that Go is an incredibly complex game and that no AI has ever come close to beating a human it (contrarily to chess).
Edit: wow sorry for being late to the party :s
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On October 11 2013 03:28 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 03:18 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 02:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:25 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On October 11 2013 02:18 Velouria wrote:On October 11 2013 02:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:53 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
Dumb down MOBAs? How is that even possible? I dont think its possible to make lol even easier without destroying the competetive aspect.
I dotn want to say that i cant respect the competetive scene, just saying that there is no more room to dumb it down without making the competition a joke. If the history of WoW for the kast 6 years has taught us anything, it's that you can ALWAYS dumb down more. And find people who like it. Maybe take an ability away from the champions, now you have only one ability and right click. Maybe have the abilities select themselves. There are definitely ways to make to MOBA games even easier. LoL took out last hitting, couriers and denying, huge parts of the DotA skillset and replaced them with nothing. And people apparently loved it. There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it) Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^ Chess is the most dumbed down game. Simple unit movements, no APM required, no resources to gather. Still is complex to play. No matter how simplified a system competition still breeds from it. Bolt is no less an athlete than Nadal just because running has less mechanics than tennis. Pretty sure that makes 0.1 sense. Checkers. Map too large, pieces moving is too complex (especially in diagonals), and casuals don't want to invest time/money into acquiring otherwise useless game pieces. TicTacToe only pls Too many variables, instead play Go. Only one type of piece and no set game board. Pure freeform play. I roll rock paper scissors, though sometimes it's hard to keep track of what beats what. Then I just punch my opponent in the face screaming "FIST!" and subsequently declare victory. Go has only one type of piece and one type of move. Rock Papers Scissors needs 3 different pieces with variant results depending on piece interaction and hand speed dynamics. Also as too many variants such as lizard spock and hand grenade. Go much simpler. One type of piece one type of move no rules restrictions on where you can move, just pure strategy. I wonder if there is a way dumb Go down too btw. It seems pretty challenging to do that.
Turn it into Stop?
Ok that was really bad.
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On October 11 2013 03:28 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 03:18 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 02:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:25 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On October 11 2013 02:18 Velouria wrote:On October 11 2013 02:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:53 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
Dumb down MOBAs? How is that even possible? I dont think its possible to make lol even easier without destroying the competetive aspect.
I dotn want to say that i cant respect the competetive scene, just saying that there is no more room to dumb it down without making the competition a joke. If the history of WoW for the kast 6 years has taught us anything, it's that you can ALWAYS dumb down more. And find people who like it. Maybe take an ability away from the champions, now you have only one ability and right click. Maybe have the abilities select themselves. There are definitely ways to make to MOBA games even easier. LoL took out last hitting, couriers and denying, huge parts of the DotA skillset and replaced them with nothing. And people apparently loved it. There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it) Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^ Chess is the most dumbed down game. Simple unit movements, no APM required, no resources to gather. Still is complex to play. No matter how simplified a system competition still breeds from it. Bolt is no less an athlete than Nadal just because running has less mechanics than tennis. Pretty sure that makes 0.1 sense. Checkers. Map too large, pieces moving is too complex (especially in diagonals), and casuals don't want to invest time/money into acquiring otherwise useless game pieces. TicTacToe only pls Too many variables, instead play Go. Only one type of piece and no set game board. Pure freeform play. I roll rock paper scissors, though sometimes it's hard to keep track of what beats what. Then I just punch my opponent in the face screaming "FIST!" and subsequently declare victory. Go has only one type of piece and one type of move. Rock Papers Scissors needs 3 different pieces with variant results depending on piece interaction and hand speed dynamics. Also as too many variants such as lizard spock and hand grenade. Go much simpler. One type of piece one type of move no rules restrictions on where you can move, just pure strategy. I wonder if there is a way dumb Go down too btw. It seems pretty challenging to do that.
Trying to play the game of "such and such is dumbed down" is ridiculous because there is almost always a more dumbed down game out there that is just as strategically complex.
The simplicity of controls does not correlate with its strategic complexity.
Go is complex despite its simplicity much like Red Alert is simple despite its MANY MANY variables and Nukes. Trying to scapegoat one aspect of a subject to "prove" objective "betterness" is just a bizarre internet habit.
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RA variables: How many tanks to make.
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On October 10 2013 18:56 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 18:42 Kal_rA wrote:On October 10 2013 17:51 ETisME wrote:On October 10 2013 17:43 MikeMM wrote:On October 10 2013 17:39 ETisME wrote:On October 10 2013 17:31 MikeMM wrote:On October 10 2013 17:27 ETisME wrote:On October 10 2013 16:56 MikeMM wrote:On October 10 2013 16:46 USvBleakill wrote:On October 10 2013 15:25 Rabiator wrote:
[quote]
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist. I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue. You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right. The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute. You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall." The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings. and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game? The overall gameplay would look better not worse. that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms. Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations. for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields. 6300 posts on TL and still so close minded... Your like a unicorn  Let me explain why I like watching pro basketball. I can't ever dream of doing the shit nba players do. I can train all day but I won't ever play like kobe. Similarly, I can play bw all day but I won't be able to consistently blanket storms like Jangbi. As a viewer watching that is effing awesome! If you still don't get what were saying here is an SC2 analogy: watching bomber play tvz is fun cause he literally has millions of streaming units across the map. I can't do that. Its fun to watch someone else do that. That's where the enjoyment in watching any kind of sport is. Watching people doing what you can't do. Seeing perfection and execution. If anybody could run fast we wouldn't have the 100 yard dash. BW just has a lot more instances of this kind of stuff than SC2. Also on a second read of the convo, if you are just arguing that a GM version and a casual version is stupid - I agree haha. DOTA was сasual mod for WC3. So you want to say that all the people who started playing DOTA instead of default wc3 ladder were stupid?
You misunderstand.. I meant different controls for the same exact game. Not a mod.. If thats what dota vs wc3 is then I guess I'm wrong.. I've never played either
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On October 11 2013 03:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 03:28 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 11 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 03:18 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 02:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:25 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On October 11 2013 02:18 Velouria wrote:On October 11 2013 02:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:53 Squat wrote:
[quote]
If the history of WoW for the kast 6 years has taught us anything, it's that you can ALWAYS dumb down more. And find people who like it.
Maybe take an ability away from the champions, now you have only one ability and right click. Maybe have the abilities select themselves. There are definitely ways to make to MOBA games even easier. LoL took out last hitting, couriers and denying, huge parts of the DotA skillset and replaced them with nothing. And people apparently loved it. There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it) Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^ Chess is the most dumbed down game. Simple unit movements, no APM required, no resources to gather. Still is complex to play. No matter how simplified a system competition still breeds from it. Bolt is no less an athlete than Nadal just because running has less mechanics than tennis. Pretty sure that makes 0.1 sense. Checkers. Map too large, pieces moving is too complex (especially in diagonals), and casuals don't want to invest time/money into acquiring otherwise useless game pieces. TicTacToe only pls Too many variables, instead play Go. Only one type of piece and no set game board. Pure freeform play. I roll rock paper scissors, though sometimes it's hard to keep track of what beats what. Then I just punch my opponent in the face screaming "FIST!" and subsequently declare victory. Go has only one type of piece and one type of move. Rock Papers Scissors needs 3 different pieces with variant results depending on piece interaction and hand speed dynamics. Also as too many variants such as lizard spock and hand grenade. Go much simpler. One type of piece one type of move no rules restrictions on where you can move, just pure strategy. I wonder if there is a way dumb Go down too btw. It seems pretty challenging to do that. Trying to play the game of "such and such is dumbed down" is ridiculous because there is almost always a more dumbed down game out there that is just as strategically complex. The simplicity of controls does not correlate with its strategic complexity. Go is complex despite its simplicity much like Red Alert is simple despite its MANY MANY variables and Nukes. Trying to scapegoat one aspect of a subject to "prove" objective "betterness" is just a bizarre internet habit.
It's much more about the impact of the variables than the quantity of them. In the RA example, the majority of variables don't actually matter because the most important one, who can make the most tanks, completely overshadows all the others.
In BW there was a beautiful symmetry of variables, where micro, high ground, unit control, clutch spellcasting, economy and macro formed a symphony of awesome where one never overshadowed the others. I have no idea if that's possible to replicate without just porting the game, but I think this is one of the things that just feel wrong about SC2. A massive army of units with terrible terrible damage reduce many other variables to insignificance, leading to a feeling of shallowness to the gameplay. A crushing loss of your maxed late game army typically means a lost game, regardless of economy or number of bases.
Midgame TvZ is so exciting precisely because there is no mega doom army to suspend the other variables in the game, you have to stay on top of multiple aspects at once, and it creates very exciting games.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 11 2013 03:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 03:28 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 11 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 03:18 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 02:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:25 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On October 11 2013 02:18 Velouria wrote:On October 11 2013 02:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 11 2013 01:53 Squat wrote:
[quote]
If the history of WoW for the kast 6 years has taught us anything, it's that you can ALWAYS dumb down more. And find people who like it.
Maybe take an ability away from the champions, now you have only one ability and right click. Maybe have the abilities select themselves. There are definitely ways to make to MOBA games even easier. LoL took out last hitting, couriers and denying, huge parts of the DotA skillset and replaced them with nothing. And people apparently loved it. There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it) Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^ Chess is the most dumbed down game. Simple unit movements, no APM required, no resources to gather. Still is complex to play. No matter how simplified a system competition still breeds from it. Bolt is no less an athlete than Nadal just because running has less mechanics than tennis. Pretty sure that makes 0.1 sense. Checkers. Map too large, pieces moving is too complex (especially in diagonals), and casuals don't want to invest time/money into acquiring otherwise useless game pieces. TicTacToe only pls Too many variables, instead play Go. Only one type of piece and no set game board. Pure freeform play. I roll rock paper scissors, though sometimes it's hard to keep track of what beats what. Then I just punch my opponent in the face screaming "FIST!" and subsequently declare victory. Go has only one type of piece and one type of move. Rock Papers Scissors needs 3 different pieces with variant results depending on piece interaction and hand speed dynamics. Also as too many variants such as lizard spock and hand grenade. Go much simpler. One type of piece one type of move no rules restrictions on where you can move, just pure strategy. I wonder if there is a way dumb Go down too btw. It seems pretty challenging to do that. Trying to play the game of "such and such is dumbed down" is ridiculous because there is almost always a more dumbed down game out there that is just as strategically complex. The simplicity of controls does not correlate with its strategic complexity. Go is complex despite its simplicity much like Red Alert is simple despite its MANY MANY variables and Nukes. Trying to scapegoat one aspect of a subject to "prove" objective "betterness" is just a bizarre internet habit.
Nah, i just found this game of dumbing games down entertaining. More entertaining that Rabiator's posts even.
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On October 11 2013 03:54 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 03:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 03:28 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 11 2013 03:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 03:18 Squat wrote:On October 11 2013 02:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:25 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On October 11 2013 02:18 Velouria wrote:On October 11 2013 02:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 11 2013 02:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
There is lasthitting in lol^^ Well yeah there are ways to make it easier, but i dotn think that that would be enjoybale by anyone :D
LoL pretty much is the easiest game possible for being still competitive i think. The only thing i could see would be removing the fog of war, and maybe an even easier statssystem for champs (attack/defense, thats it)
Well lets see what blizzard dota will do, maybe it will be exactly that ^^ Chess is the most dumbed down game. Simple unit movements, no APM required, no resources to gather. Still is complex to play. No matter how simplified a system competition still breeds from it. Bolt is no less an athlete than Nadal just because running has less mechanics than tennis. Pretty sure that makes 0.1 sense. Checkers. Map too large, pieces moving is too complex (especially in diagonals), and casuals don't want to invest time/money into acquiring otherwise useless game pieces. TicTacToe only pls Too many variables, instead play Go. Only one type of piece and no set game board. Pure freeform play. I roll rock paper scissors, though sometimes it's hard to keep track of what beats what. Then I just punch my opponent in the face screaming "FIST!" and subsequently declare victory. Go has only one type of piece and one type of move. Rock Papers Scissors needs 3 different pieces with variant results depending on piece interaction and hand speed dynamics. Also as too many variants such as lizard spock and hand grenade. Go much simpler. One type of piece one type of move no rules restrictions on where you can move, just pure strategy. I wonder if there is a way dumb Go down too btw. It seems pretty challenging to do that. Trying to play the game of "such and such is dumbed down" is ridiculous because there is almost always a more dumbed down game out there that is just as strategically complex. The simplicity of controls does not correlate with its strategic complexity. Go is complex despite its simplicity much like Red Alert is simple despite its MANY MANY variables and Nukes. Trying to scapegoat one aspect of a subject to "prove" objective "betterness" is just a bizarre internet habit. It's much more about the impact of the variables than the quantity of them. In the RA example, the majority of variables don't actually matter because the most important one, who can make the most tanks, completely overshadows all the others. In BW there was a beautiful symmetry of variables, where micro, high ground, unit control, clutch spellcasting, economy and macro formed a symphony of awesome where one never overshadowed the others. I have no idea if that's possible to replicate without just porting the game, but I think this is one of the things that just feel wrong about SC2. A massive army of units with terrible terrible damage reduce many other variables to insignificance, leading to a feeling of shallowness to the gameplay. A crushing loss of your maxed late game army typically means a lost game, regardless of economy or number of bases. Midgame TvZ is so exciting precisely because there is no mega doom army to suspend the other variables in the game, you have to stay on top of multiple aspects at once, and it creates very exciting games.
I love BW and I think its one of the best games every created by Gods, not man,GODS!
But my argument was mostly stemming as a response to this constant attack on MOBAs. Im not a big fan of them, but saying they are worse games because they're mechanically easier than BW/SC2/Street Fighter IV is a ridiculous stance to take.
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Actually, in (especially) an asymmetrical game it's balance that is the surface reason for the game being reduced to fewer dimensions, which is why it's so important to get right. I'm not just talking about match-up balance at a high level, but the general balance of game dynamics. If there is something that is different in the design of two races it can sometimes mean that there is something to exploit. For instance, a potential to be superior at economy which can be leveraged into always winning the game as long as you survive a certain timing window. But maybe the other race has stronger units, so it doesn't matter how much better your economy is, or whether you have map control or outplay the opponent in various ways, since you can't kill his deathball. None of these differences are bad per se, but they depend very much on being properly balanced.
I think generally there are some strategic subgoals (the overarching goal is of course to win the game) and if one race stops caring about any of these goals because it literally doesn't matter to the outcome of the game that the game starts to degenerate.
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EPT
