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When people talk about SC/BW pathfinding/clumping they don't want retard-"big unit"-AI back... So could you guys stop allways bringing this as an argument?
SC2 has a few glaring issues:
Too much clumping --> This is not the same as "to good pathfinding AI". This is what forces the deathball gameplay in the first place.
Too much deathballs --> The supply-limit or supply costs are just "wrong" and units clump, so everytime you have a fight all your units actually engage in a battle, this means you can't spare much firepower for a (decently) sized raid.
Terrible-Terrible-Damage --> See clumping/deathball.
Too streamlined economy --> 3 bases and thats it... This is just sad.
+ Units that are just boring/stupid (roach, marauder, colossus, medivac, sentry, corruptor, overseer, immortal and the dumbest thing ever: Nexus cannon).
Changing some of this would force a major rework of basically the whole game. Which is what should have been done during the Beta.
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On September 13 2013 17:56 Velr wrote:
When people talk about SC/BW pathfinding/clumping they don't want retard-"big unit"-AI back... So could you guys stop allways bringing this as an argument?
SC2 has a few glaring issues:
To much clumping --> This is not the same as "to good pathfinding AI". This is what forces the deathball gameplay in the first place.
To much deathballs --> The supply-limit or supply costs are just too low/high and units clump to good that about allways all your units actually engage in a battle, so you can't spare much firepower for a (decently) sized raid.
Terrible-Terrible-Damage --> See clumping/deathball.
To streamlined economy --> 3 bases and thats it... This is just sad.
+ Units that are just boring/stupid (roach, marauder, colossus, medivac, sentry, corruptor, overseer, immortal) and the dumbest thing ever Nexus cannon
Changing some of this would force a major rework of basically the whole game. Which is what should have been done during the Beta.
Making it less deathball like, it's actually more casual friendly.
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On September 13 2013 17:15 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 14:52 Rabiator wrote:On September 13 2013 14:34 larse wrote:
Well, LotV is not going to sell much as HOTS only sold 1/3 of WOL.
WOL = 3 million
HOTS = 1.1 million
LotV = 40k???
Going F2P may be an incentive for them now. And how are you going to get the money to pay Dustins and Davids salaries? Selling skins doesnt make sense and what other option is there? Selling maps is a terrible idea for egoshooters already ... You dont make a crappy game more popular in the long run by making it free to play, you only make the few idiots who dont want to pay the $60 play ... for a short time. There are plenty of ways of monetize SC2. Not just skins. There are just so many ways. I can list a ton of. Use your imagination.
Well, but which ones are really useful?
Sure, if this game had DotA like WC3, Arcarde selling would be useful.
Skins are probably useful.
Campaign selling is probably useful.
there is sure more...
But I don't see those stuff really making as much as just selling the game, not to mention that there is a huge difference between having a f2p game or turning a game into one. Lots of people would go mad about this and you'd probably have to live with bad publicity ("cheap, uninspired expansion"; "not finished, that's why they made it f2p and are now charging for extra for little pieces")
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On September 13 2013 17:57 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 17:56 Velr wrote:
When people talk about SC/BW pathfinding/clumping they don't want retard-"big unit"-AI back... So could you guys stop allways bringing this as an argument?
SC2 has a few glaring issues:
To much clumping --> This is not the same as "to good pathfinding AI". This is what forces the deathball gameplay in the first place.
To much deathballs --> The supply-limit or supply costs are just too low/high and units clump to good that about allways all your units actually engage in a battle, so you can't spare much firepower for a (decently) sized raid.
Terrible-Terrible-Damage --> See clumping/deathball.
To streamlined economy --> 3 bases and thats it... This is just sad.
+ Units that are just boring/stupid (roach, marauder, colossus, medivac, sentry, corruptor, overseer, immortal) and the dumbest thing ever Nexus cannon
Changing some of this would force a major rework of basically the whole game. Which is what should have been done during the Beta.
Making it less deathball like, it's actually more casual friendly.
Is it? I believe the part that casuals don't like about Starcraft is mostly how you have to control different things on different screens all the time and that people lose to stuff they don't see coming and don't react in time.
People are very fine with controlling a single hero somewhere, or a single guy with a gun, or a single elf or playing that jump and run game where you character is always in the middle of the screen.
But how much fun is it for the casual gamer when suddenly your whole base got destroyed while you were watching shiny lazerz and felt like MKP because you did one tiny micro trick.
Making it more deathbally is very casual unfriendly in my opinion - very good for the game and should be done regardless.
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On September 13 2013 18:00 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 17:15 larse wrote:On September 13 2013 14:52 Rabiator wrote:On September 13 2013 14:34 larse wrote:
Well, LotV is not going to sell much as HOTS only sold 1/3 of WOL.
WOL = 3 million
HOTS = 1.1 million
LotV = 40k???
Going F2P may be an incentive for them now. And how are you going to get the money to pay Dustins and Davids salaries? Selling skins doesnt make sense and what other option is there? Selling maps is a terrible idea for egoshooters already ... You dont make a crappy game more popular in the long run by making it free to play, you only make the few idiots who dont want to pay the $60 play ... for a short time. There are plenty of ways of monetize SC2. Not just skins. There are just so many ways. I can list a ton of. Use your imagination. Well, but which ones are really useful? Sure, if this game had DotA like WC3, Arcarde selling would be useful. Skins are probably useful. Campaign selling is probably useful. there is sure more... But I don't see those stuff really making as much as just selling the game, not to mention that there is a huge difference between having a f2p game or turning a game into one. Lots of people would go mad about this and you'd probably have to live with bad publicity ("cheap, uninspired expansion"; "not finished, that's why they made it f2p and are now charging for extra for little pieces")
LoL has retail version of the game which has many features already open. Blizzard could employ same strategy. Make terran and zerg free, charge for protoss.
Or put more units into game. For example raven is free and science vessel is for money. Balance it so that not having vessel won't cause issues and make it more like alternative. Similar to ADC role in LoL. (If your team doesn't have varus, it doesn't mean you are weak.)
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There are infinitely many game modes that Blizzard could have thought up to charge people for. For instance, they could have adopted a WoW-like model where every major patch introduces new content to the game, but while for WoW you pay monthly installments, for SC2 you could just buy the patch.
Examples are a campaign that's not divided into three installments, but more like twenty chapters, with five new maps released every three months. They could also have made money with the arcade marketplace, if they hadn't somehow made a mess out of that. They could sell skins; or only enable terran by default, with zerg and protoss requiring purchases; they could have offered name changes, ladder ranking resets, a higher priority in the matchmaking queue; even participating in a ranked ladder season could require cash. Offer the arcade as a platform for game creators, including matchmaking and ladder rankings, if the game creators are willing to pay. More advertisements in battle.net, from banners to sponsored arcade maps. Organized tournaments where you have to buy in with 5$, with the money going into the prize pool but with Blizzard taking a cut. In-game tournament viewing. And what about more premium maps to sell on the arcade? is there any reason Blizzard couldn't have had a larger team solely to create maps for this purpose in case they went with a f2p model? (I guess Blizz all-stars is like this?) Personally I would have also paid money just for a version of SC2 that's balanced for FFA, and I actually think it's less objectionable to redesign races for this purpose as long as I would have to buy into this feature.
Maybe many of these ideas are objectionable, but I think at least some of them show potential.
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So, I checked active players this morning. Dota2 had 300k online, Sc2 had 750k online. The daily peak for Dota2 is 430k. Which game has a problem?
Also, regarding balance. MOBAs are balanced around the scaling of heroes with and the idea that some of them should become unbalanced when the team has played properly and has the right items. That's why alot of write up's ends with "and then Loda snowballed".
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On September 13 2013 21:15 Latringuden wrote:
So, I checked active players this morning. Dota2 had 300k online, Sc2 had 750k online. The daily peak for Dota2 is 430k. Which game has a problem?
Also, regarding balance. MOBAs are balanced around the scaling of heroes with and the idea that some of them should become unbalanced when the team has played properly and has the right items. That's why alot of write up's ends with "and then Loda snowballed".
Are you sure those numbers are correct? Maybe it includes Diablo III players? :o
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On September 13 2013 19:44 Grumbels wrote:
There are infinitely many game modes that Blizzard could have thought up to charge people for. For instance, they could have adopted a WoW-like model where every major patch introduces new content to the game, but while for WoW you pay monthly installments, for SC2 you could just buy the patch.
Examples are a campaign that's not divided into three installments, but more like twenty chapters, with five new maps released every three months. They could also have made money with the arcade marketplace, if they hadn't somehow made a mess out of that. They could sell skins; or only enable terran by default, with zerg and protoss requiring purchases; they could have offered name changes, ladder ranking resets, a higher priority in the matchmaking queue; even participating in a ranked ladder season could require cash. Offer the arcade as a platform for game creators, including matchmaking and ladder rankings, if the game creators are willing to pay. More advertisements in battle.net, from banners to sponsored arcade maps. Organized tournaments where you have to buy in with 5$, with the money going into the prize pool but with Blizzard taking a cut. In-game tournament viewing. And what about more premium maps to sell on the arcade? is there any reason Blizzard couldn't have had a larger team solely to create maps for this purpose in case they went with a f2p model? (I guess Blizz all-stars is like this?) Personally I would have also paid money just for a version of SC2 that's balanced for FFA, and I actually think it's less objectionable to redesign races for this purpose as long as I would have to buy into this feature.
Maybe many of these ideas are objectionable, but I think at least some of them show potential.
When SC2 was being developed back in 2008-2009, the subscription based model was being floated around for CoD and other games and meet with truly epic levels of resistance. Free 2 play was not even a model people took seriously for high level game development. SC2 is a product of a time before free to play really existed as we know it today.
On September 13 2013 23:35 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 21:15 Latringuden wrote:
So, I checked active players this morning. Dota2 had 300k online, Sc2 had 750k online. The daily peak for Dota2 is 430k. Which game has a problem?
Also, regarding balance. MOBAs are balanced around the scaling of heroes with and the idea that some of them should become unbalanced when the team has played properly and has the right items. That's why alot of write up's ends with "and then Loda snowballed". Are you sure those numbers are correct? Maybe it includes Diablo III players? :o
I don't know, even even if it was a 50/50 split between D3 and SC2, it would be tied with Dota 2. Really, both those games being equally as popular wouldn't shock me in the least.
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On September 13 2013 21:15 Latringuden wrote:
So, I checked active players this morning. Dota2 had 300k online, Sc2 had 750k online. The daily peak for Dota2 is 430k. Which game has a problem?
Also, regarding balance. MOBAs are balanced around the scaling of heroes with and the idea that some of them should become unbalanced when the team has played properly and has the right items. That's why alot of write up's ends with "and then Loda snowballed".
its 750k in battle.net. All blizzard games together.
WoW is major chunk of it.
Sc2 has roughly 12k games being played at one point which I guess is around 100k players online.
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On September 13 2013 23:57 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 21:15 Latringuden wrote:
So, I checked active players this morning. Dota2 had 300k online, Sc2 had 750k online. The daily peak for Dota2 is 430k. Which game has a problem?
Also, regarding balance. MOBAs are balanced around the scaling of heroes with and the idea that some of them should become unbalanced when the team has played properly and has the right items. That's why alot of write up's ends with "and then Loda snowballed". its 750k in battle.net. All blizzard games together. WoW is major chunk of it. Sc2 has roughly 12k games being played at one point which I guess is around 100k players online.
Wow cannot be included in that at all. That has over 8-9 million subscribers currently. Even if all of those players were WoW subscribers, it would be less than 1% of the total number of subs. There is no possible way that WoW is included in those numbers and they are as low as 750K.
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On September 14 2013 00:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 23:57 saddaromma wrote:On September 13 2013 21:15 Latringuden wrote:
So, I checked active players this morning. Dota2 had 300k online, Sc2 had 750k online. The daily peak for Dota2 is 430k. Which game has a problem?
Also, regarding balance. MOBAs are balanced around the scaling of heroes with and the idea that some of them should become unbalanced when the team has played properly and has the right items. That's why alot of write up's ends with "and then Loda snowballed". its 750k in battle.net. All blizzard games together. WoW is major chunk of it. Sc2 has roughly 12k games being played at one point which I guess is around 100k players online. Wow cannot be included in that at all. That has over 8-9 million subscribers currently. Even if all of those players were WoW subscribers, it would be less than 1% of the total number of subs. There is no possible way that WoW is included in those numbers and they are as low as 750K.
And dota2 has 6.5 million unique players monthly. The bnet number is D3/SC2/WoW
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On September 14 2013 00:17 Crytash wrote:http://www.sc2ranks.com/hots/global/1v1/all/allaccording to this site, there are only 220k over all SC2 HOTS player in the last 3 days, there is no way there are 750k Sc2 player online atm. edit: maybe i am missread something i guess there are 220k online atm.
That seems to be accurate, though it is tough to tell if the data is current player or average at a given time. . Dota 2 has 500K, but this appears to be their peak hours and they drop down to around 300K at non-peak(at least in the last 48 hours). It is hard to know where the peak number of players for SC2 is.
On September 14 2013 00:29 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 00:05 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 23:57 saddaromma wrote:On September 13 2013 21:15 Latringuden wrote:
So, I checked active players this morning. Dota2 had 300k online, Sc2 had 750k online. The daily peak for Dota2 is 430k. Which game has a problem?
Also, regarding balance. MOBAs are balanced around the scaling of heroes with and the idea that some of them should become unbalanced when the team has played properly and has the right items. That's why alot of write up's ends with "and then Loda snowballed". its 750k in battle.net. All blizzard games together. WoW is major chunk of it. Sc2 has roughly 12k games being played at one point which I guess is around 100k players online. Wow cannot be included in that at all. That has over 8-9 million subscribers currently. Even if all of those players were WoW subscribers, it would be less than 1% of the total number of subs. There is no possible way that WoW is included in those numbers and they are as low as 750K. And dota2 has 6.5 million unique players monthly. The bnet number is D3/SC2/WoW
Dota 2 is a popular game that is free to play and currently the most popular game on Steam. I hope it would have high numbers of unique players, otherwise Valve wasted a lot of money.
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You think that the peak of Sc2 is on a different time than for Dota 2? (at least in hourwise there should be a similar timeline for both games)
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On September 14 2013 00:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 23:57 saddaromma wrote:On September 13 2013 21:15 Latringuden wrote:
So, I checked active players this morning. Dota2 had 300k online, Sc2 had 750k online. The daily peak for Dota2 is 430k. Which game has a problem?
Also, regarding balance. MOBAs are balanced around the scaling of heroes with and the idea that some of them should become unbalanced when the team has played properly and has the right items. That's why alot of write up's ends with "and then Loda snowballed". its 750k in battle.net. All blizzard games together. WoW is major chunk of it. Sc2 has roughly 12k games being played at one point which I guess is around 100k players online. Wow cannot be included in that at all. That has over 8-9 million subscribers currently. Even if all of those players were WoW subscribers, it would be less than 1% of the total number of subs. There is no possible way that WoW is included in those numbers and they are as low as 750K.
~200k SC2
~100k Diablo
~450K WoW
Why is it not possible that wow only has 1/16th of total subscribers online while SC2 has 1/15th? It seems reasonable that these numbers apply. Also it isn't less 1% unless my brain is quitting on me. More like ~10%.
On September 14 2013 00:33 Crytash wrote:
You think that the peak of Sc2 is on a different time than for Dota 2? (at least in hourwise there should be a similar timeline for both games)
Peak times are irreverent because we don't have a peak for SC2 online. But you are right somewhat they both should peak at the same time seeing as they have similar qualifications of PC specs meaning they have no massive influence from PC bangs.
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On September 14 2013 00:34 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 00:05 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 23:57 saddaromma wrote:On September 13 2013 21:15 Latringuden wrote:
So, I checked active players this morning. Dota2 had 300k online, Sc2 had 750k online. The daily peak for Dota2 is 430k. Which game has a problem?
Also, regarding balance. MOBAs are balanced around the scaling of heroes with and the idea that some of them should become unbalanced when the team has played properly and has the right items. That's why alot of write up's ends with "and then Loda snowballed". its 750k in battle.net. All blizzard games together. WoW is major chunk of it. Sc2 has roughly 12k games being played at one point which I guess is around 100k players online. Wow cannot be included in that at all. That has over 8-9 million subscribers currently. Even if all of those players were WoW subscribers, it would be less than 1% of the total number of subs. There is no possible way that WoW is included in those numbers and they are as low as 750K. ~200k SC2 ~100k Diablo ~450K WoW Why is it not possible that wow only has 1/16th of total subscribers online while SC2 has 1/15th? It seems reasonable that these numbers apply. Also it isn't less 1% unless my brain is quitting on me. More like ~10%.
Yeah, i did the math wrong in my head and moved the zero over one to many places. 450K for wow online at a given time seems a bit low with 9 million subs, but they many not be pulling the numbers from every single server on the planet. China or some other regions might not be in that data for WoW.
On September 14 2013 00:33 Crytash wrote:
You think that the peak of Sc2 is on a different time than for Dota 2? (at least in hourwise there should be a similar timeline for both games)
I can't be sure, so I don't claim to know or assume. Also, Dota 2 is brand new, while SC2 is 3 years old with an expansion. The number of active players for SC2 still beats out CS:GO, CoDBO, CS Source and SC prime if you add them all together.(on steam, of course). So SC2 is doing pretty well for being a 3 year old game.
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On September 14 2013 00:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 00:34 NoobSkills wrote:On September 14 2013 00:05 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 23:57 saddaromma wrote:On September 13 2013 21:15 Latringuden wrote:
So, I checked active players this morning. Dota2 had 300k online, Sc2 had 750k online. The daily peak for Dota2 is 430k. Which game has a problem?
Also, regarding balance. MOBAs are balanced around the scaling of heroes with and the idea that some of them should become unbalanced when the team has played properly and has the right items. That's why alot of write up's ends with "and then Loda snowballed". its 750k in battle.net. All blizzard games together. WoW is major chunk of it. Sc2 has roughly 12k games being played at one point which I guess is around 100k players online. Wow cannot be included in that at all. That has over 8-9 million subscribers currently. Even if all of those players were WoW subscribers, it would be less than 1% of the total number of subs. There is no possible way that WoW is included in those numbers and they are as low as 750K. ~200k SC2 ~100k Diablo ~450K WoW Why is it not possible that wow only has 1/16th of total subscribers online while SC2 has 1/15th? It seems reasonable that these numbers apply. Also it isn't less 1% unless my brain is quitting on me. More like ~10%. Yeah, i did the math wrong in my head and moved the zero over one to many places. 450K for wow online at a given time seems a bit low with 9 million subs, but they many not be pulling the numbers from every single server on the planet. China or some other regions might not be in that data for WoW.
when I was online just now it was between 1 and 2 million online on battle.net, which is more believable for wow I think. it was 12k sc2 games being played, but I don't know if that includes arcade games
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On September 14 2013 00:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 00:34 NoobSkills wrote:On September 14 2013 00:05 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 23:57 saddaromma wrote:On September 13 2013 21:15 Latringuden wrote:
So, I checked active players this morning. Dota2 had 300k online, Sc2 had 750k online. The daily peak for Dota2 is 430k. Which game has a problem?
Also, regarding balance. MOBAs are balanced around the scaling of heroes with and the idea that some of them should become unbalanced when the team has played properly and has the right items. That's why alot of write up's ends with "and then Loda snowballed". its 750k in battle.net. All blizzard games together. WoW is major chunk of it. Sc2 has roughly 12k games being played at one point which I guess is around 100k players online. Wow cannot be included in that at all. That has over 8-9 million subscribers currently. Even if all of those players were WoW subscribers, it would be less than 1% of the total number of subs. There is no possible way that WoW is included in those numbers and they are as low as 750K. ~200k SC2 ~100k Diablo ~450K WoW Why is it not possible that wow only has 1/16th of total subscribers online while SC2 has 1/15th? It seems reasonable that these numbers apply. Also it isn't less 1% unless my brain is quitting on me. More like ~10%. Yeah, i did the math wrong in my head and moved the zero over one to many places. 450K for wow online at a given time seems a bit low with 9 million subs, but they many not be pulling the numbers from every single server on the planet. China or some other regions might not be in that data for WoW.
You are right the numbers for WoW seem low, but I promise that my numbers for SC2 and Diablo are high. WoW is probably more like 600K. Of course I have no clue what it is, but in a reference I read before active players for SC2 compared to purchase sales is quite low, same with D3, so in the end they probably have a VERY small piece of the battle.net user online pie. Which used to be a good pie 
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On September 14 2013 00:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 00:33 Crytash wrote:
You think that the peak of Sc2 is on a different time than for Dota 2? (at least in hourwise there should be a similar timeline for both games) I can't be sure, so I don't claim to know or assume. Also, Dota 2 is brand new, while SC2 is 3 years old with an expansion. The number of active players for SC2 still beats out CS:GO, CoDBO, CS Source and SC prime if you add them all together.(on steam, of course). So SC2 is doing pretty well for being a 3 year old game.
I think dota1 still has a high amount of active players too, at least above 50k daily.
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EPT
