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On September 03 2013 22:48 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 22:40 rd wrote:On September 03 2013 19:42 Zarahtra wrote:On September 03 2013 19:33 TeeTS wrote:On September 03 2013 19:14 Satiinifi wrote:
I wonder what made them impliment MSC as it is to the game, any decent player who would have tested to play against it or play with it 10 games should have been able to tell easily, that its a totally rigged unit that does not belong to this game as it is. Isn´t David Kim a GM player with all 3 races. I´m sure he knows best!  On September 03 2013 19:09 Zarahtra wrote:On September 03 2013 18:56 TeeTS wrote:
Well I said it the day hellbat nerf was announced, that PvT will swing massively into favor of protoss and here we are. TvZ is a mess too. The only matchup that seems somehow working right now is PvZ. We have a lategame where both sides have options to win, we have several routes for both sides to get there and stable winratios around 50%.
The other 2 matchups are a huge clusterfuck. In TvZ both sides are forced into one and only one composition for basically the whole game and zerg suffers just way too much from widow mines and medivac speed. Ofc if you would take away only one of those puzzle pieces from terran, we would have a huge swing and terran would´ve a lot of trouble winning at all against Zerg.
I don´t see those issues solved by David Kim. Until he (and his team) is replaced, I don´t see a chance for a good solution. I would be more than happy if he could surprise me here. I'm a T so obviously I'm going to be biased, but personally I'm byfar more concerned for TvP rather than ZvT. I think there are plenty of buffs that Blizzard can implement for TvZ since it's such a specific problem imo of terran being able to pressure to hard and preventing Z from getting hive. TvP is just a huge clusterfuck of mothership core(which is pretty vital in PvZ) allowing to much greed while T can't be greedy and lategame favours P. I just don't really see a fix to that issue except changes that effect PvZ hard too. TvZ is as problematic as TvP. If you take away MSC then P dies hard to drop harassment at all stages of the game. In TvZ you can´t really buff zerg units, because you will fuck up PvZ with it and if you take away anything from terran, then they´ll get rolled here too. These problems can´t be solved by a single change. We need a somewhat gamechanging package of changes to all 3 races to solve these issues. You won´t get a balanced game by changing a single unit! Well atleast on the pro level I think changing +3/+3 upgrade requirement will be enough to shift the balance quite a bit. You can see the meta is basically T hits 2/2 and then just suffocates the zerg until 3/3 is done, then zerg is screwed. That isn't to say I wouldn't love a bigger change for TvZ since I miss marine tank a lot, but I don't think a big change is needed to shift the balance. And by making 3/3 harder to obtain you're essentially buffing double forge builds in PvT. 3/3 timings from Toss become even stronger. I was talking about in the other direction, to reduce the requirement of Z upgrades, since +3/+3 for both T and P don't require an extra building, but Z requires 2(that aren't even done at same time). I don't really think it will change that much in ZvP, since hive tech is a lot more desireble in ZvP anyway.
3/3 is to hard to get for zerg currently because of hive. It is mostly a time requirement, rather than a gas thing. It just takes to long to get down the infestation pit, get some sort of benifit from the pit and then get hive and 3/3. The difference between zerg and the other races is that they need to build a building that allows them to produce units. The protoss and terran just build a building that allows them to upgrade existing units.
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Matchups look like broodwar except protoss should be a little bit weaker vs terran.
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Not exactly sure why people are deriving that Z > P from these win rate stats....
Is it just because its catchy to assess the current state of balance in hots as T > Z > P > T? To be honest, a 51.4% win ratio in zerg's favour seems like a very acceptable "imbalance" if one can call it that...
Quite surprised to see how badly imbalanced T v P is, but then if I really think about it, I can't recall last time I saw a terran take a game from a protoss at pro level in the late game. Z v T, no surprise at all there, in fact I expected it to be even more skewed in terran's favour but I guess zergs have figured out some pretty sharp all ins eh?
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New Winrates GSTL
TvP: 100%
TvZ: 100%
PvZ: no data
Oh my god, that's scary.
Metagame will evolve by itself or should Blizzard nerf Terran?
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i feel finally fix mech ( read: tank ) against protoss would resolve the issues in that matchup completely and would also make it possible to have more than 1 playstyle for 5 years.
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On September 03 2013 23:19 sacade wrote:New Winrates GSTL TvP: 100% TvZ: 100% PvZ: no data Oh my god, that's scary. Metagame will evolve by itself or should Blizzard nerf Terran?
All of those are Innovation wins, correct? I don't think they can nerf him directly without resorting to crime.
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On September 04 2013 00:11 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 18:01 spalding wrote:
Zealot+archon+hts is so ridiculously easy to control. You a move your zealots/archons, look for the biggest clump of terran units and just storm it. Get most of your army EMP'ed? np, use a defensive storm and retreat. Eat 2 big storms? Sorry, good game. MMMVG is so ridiculously easy to control. You a-move your MMMVG, look for the biggest clump of Protoss units, and then EMP it. Get most of your army Stormed..? No problem, split out of the Storm whilst EMPing everything in sight. As for the Protoss, eat EMPs on your Templar once..? Sorry, good game. Works both ways, Templar vs. Ghost micro is the be-all-and-end-all of PvT late-game.
just that colossi have like onemilion range and you can't even get to the templars to emp if the toss has an observer AND you can't a move vikings cause they get stormed together with your bio+ you presplitt usually just to make storm less effective
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Sated you should have felt while writing it that it's not as easy as what you were parodying. And you left out Viking micro (the previous left out colossus...), you need to position vikings separately and focus fire. Also, while mentioning splits, you forgot about stutter-step. All-in all, as mindless pissing contests go, a very poor effort. At least add an scv pull scenario : "scan to see templar archives, pull scv's and a-move with stim before storm is out. GG".
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Not usually one to theorycraft in these threads but heres some ideas;
- siege tanks in siege mode immune to viper pull due to being clamped into the ground
- new upgrade for siege tanks: EMP rounds - deals extra damage to shields & lowers a caster unit's energy
- planetary nexus attack speed decreased, but overall dps unchanged (better against medivacs, roaches, marauders, worse against marines, lings)
- widow mine attack has ammo that must be replenished by building new missiles for 10 gas or minerals a pop
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David Kim: GAME IS BALANCED
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On September 04 2013 00:11 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 18:01 spalding wrote:
Zealot+archon+hts is so ridiculously easy to control. You a move your zealots/archons, look for the biggest clump of terran units and just storm it. Get most of your army EMP'ed? np, use a defensive storm and retreat. Eat 2 big storms? Sorry, good game. MMMVG is so ridiculously easy to control. You t-a-move your MMMVG, look for the biggest clump of Protoss units, and then EMP it. Get most of your army Stormed..? No problem, split out of the Storm whilst EMPing everything in sight. As for the Protoss, eat EMPs on your Templar once..? Sorry, good game. Works both ways, Templar vs. Ghost micro is the be-all-and-end-all of PvT late-game.
Bro, you just went full retard...
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On September 04 2013 00:21 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 00:13 ntssauce wrote:On September 04 2013 00:11 Sated wrote:On September 03 2013 18:01 spalding wrote:
Zealot+archon+hts is so ridiculously easy to control. You a move your zealots/archons, look for the biggest clump of terran units and just storm it. Get most of your army EMP'ed? np, use a defensive storm and retreat. Eat 2 big storms? Sorry, good game. MMMVG is so ridiculously easy to control. You a-move your MMMVG, look for the biggest clump of Protoss units, and then EMP it. Get most of your army Stormed..? No problem, split out of the Storm whilst EMPing everything in sight. As for the Protoss, eat EMPs on your Templar once..? Sorry, good game. Works both ways, Templar vs. Ghost micro is the be-all-and-end-all of PvT late-game. just that colossi have like onemilion range and you can't even get to the templars to emp if the toss has an observer AND you can't a move vikings cause they get stormed together with your bio+ you presplitt usually just to make storm less effective Vikings have pretty good range vs. Colossi, and the Protoss has to position Stalkers to focus fire the Vikings. Protoss should pre-split vs. EMP as well, especially their Templar. Nothing here makes me feel that either side is harder. It all comes down to those Templar vs. those Ghosts. If the Terran doesn't hit their EMPs and the Protoss hits their Storms, Protoss wins. If the Terran hits their EMPs (or Snipes), then the Terran usually wins. Or one army has to retreat. Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 00:17 Ghanburighan wrote:
Sated you should have felt while writing it that it's not as easy as what you were parodying. And you left out Viking micro (the previous left out colossus...), you need to position vikings separately and focus fire. Also, while mentioning splits, you forgot about stutter-step. All-in all, as mindless pissing contests go, a very poor effort. At least add an scv pull scenario : "scan to see templar archives, pull scv's and a-move with stim before storm is out. GG". If I left out Viking micro, the previous left out Blink Stalker and Colossus micro. Neither side has it easier. Late-game PvT is very bloody difficult, and it's usually over in a second because one person makes that critical mistake that leads to everything they have melting (standing in Storms, Templar getting EMP'd, engaging in a bad choke, not pre-splitting effectively enough, etc.) There is definitely a period where Terran won't have quite enough Ghosts/Vikings (depending on whether Protoss opened Templar/Colossi), and there is also an earlier period where Protoss won't have their second form of AoE ready to help deflect an SCV all-in, but after those two windows it is a very even match-up.
it seems you are the only one to think protoss is as hard as terran micro in those engagements. no wonder, you are protoss yourself.
Colossus micro is almost non existent at any level, it's really rare in those big engagements.
+You have no clue, protoss armys are usually better to be clumped against terran, because of the huge damage output. your zealots spread alost auto with charge and the rest should stay clumped, to maximize damage as said, fighting in small clumps favours the terran , as we all should know.
+ protoss almost don't build stalkers in lategame because they are so cost inefficient, i don't recall seeing stalkers in a lategame PvT in month, except mabye from MC.
And last of all i feel this "I have to micro this and that unit" bla bla that we are doing right now is pretty stupid , but so is denying that Terran has a harder time in latgame engagements.
AND also what the fuck is this argument: "Vikings have a pretty good range too"
I said: ghosts can't reach your templawrs because of insange collosus range and you answer with vikings? vikings aren't the problem here, because you want to emp the temps before you engage.
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As a spectator, what I can see is that for most level TvP is easier for Protoss but at the highest level Terran are good enough to:
scan + snipe observer + scan + carpet EMP with cloak ghost + Stim + A move and profit
So we have as best player
last Proleague: Flash
last Gstl: Ryung
WCS Korea: Maru
WCS World: Bomber
First WCS point: InnoVation
That's a lot of Terran at the top
I still think that the game is balance. I just want to see more Hellbat Marauder from Terran which I think is easier to control (Last time I saw ForGG, he used it so I hope he will do it again today) and for top Protoss player I like when they use Warprism to protect their HT and when they add few Tempest to kill incoming ghost or force a bad engagement from Terran.
I will stop my theorycraft here 
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Just like BW then haha. T>Z>P>T. Only this time Protoss gets the best end of the stick in terms of overall winrates. I feel like very minor nerfs to both the widow mine and the mothership core are in order.
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On September 04 2013 01:03 kochanfe wrote:
Just like BW then haha. T>Z>P>T. Only this time Protoss gets the best end of the stick in terms of overall winrates. I feel like very minor nerfs to both the widow mine and the mothership core are in order.
But going back through April, Protoss isn't always #1 and when it is, it's not always ahead by a lot.
While I'd like to see MSC/mine nerfs, they're not 100% necessary for balance. We shouldn't jump the gun on things concerning balance, that's how we got range 5 queens.
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So... looking at these numbers, the game is in a terrible state. Why is everyone constantly chanting the mantra of "best balance the game has seen in a long time", "don't disrupt the win rates", and other equivalent BS?
Blizzard has stated frequently throughout the history of SC2 that anything outside of 45/55 win rates is considered "imbalanced" by their own definition. 2/3 of their MU are imbalanced and we sit by with shit like the overseer speed buff because we don't want to disrupt the balance of the game?
I don't get it. Why isn't this a bigger deal?
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EPT
