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On September 04 2013 02:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
So... looking at these numbers, the game is in a terrible state. Why is everyone constantly chanting the mantra of "best balance the game has seen in a long time", "don't disrupt the win rates", and other equivalent BS?
Blizzard has stated frequently throughout the history of SC2 that anything outside of 45/55 win rates is considered "imbalanced" by their own definition. 2/3 of their MU are imbalanced and we sit by with shit like the overseer speed buff because we don't want to disrupt the balance of the game?
I don't get it. Why isn't this a bigger deal?
Given that Overseer speed buff aids the 45% party in ZvT, and has no effect on PvT, what would be the complaint?
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On September 04 2013 02:08 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 02:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
So... looking at these numbers, the game is in a terrible state. Why is everyone constantly chanting the mantra of "best balance the game has seen in a long time", "don't disrupt the win rates", and other equivalent BS?
Blizzard has stated frequently throughout the history of SC2 that anything outside of 45/55 win rates is considered "imbalanced" by their own definition. 2/3 of their MU are imbalanced and we sit by with shit like the overseer speed buff because we don't want to disrupt the balance of the game?
I don't get it. Why isn't this a bigger deal? Given that Overseer speed buff aids the 45% party in ZvT, and has no effect on PvT, what would be the complaint?
1) That the overseer buff was called "nice, but useless" before the patch was even release and has proven to be about as effective as predicted.
2) That the 42% win rate for Terran in TvP (arguably the larger issue here) has absolutely nothing going for it.
3) That the mantra is WRONG WRONG WRONG and people are still defending it.
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On September 04 2013 02:21 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 02:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 04 2013 02:08 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On September 04 2013 02:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
So... looking at these numbers, the game is in a terrible state. Why is everyone constantly chanting the mantra of "best balance the game has seen in a long time", "don't disrupt the win rates", and other equivalent BS?
Blizzard has stated frequently throughout the history of SC2 that anything outside of 45/55 win rates is considered "imbalanced" by their own definition. 2/3 of their MU are imbalanced and we sit by with shit like the overseer speed buff because we don't want to disrupt the balance of the game?
I don't get it. Why isn't this a bigger deal? Given that Overseer speed buff aids the 45% party in ZvT, and has no effect on PvT, what would be the complaint? 1) That the overseer buff was called "nice, but useless" before the patch was even release and has proven to be about as effective as predicted. 2) That the 42% win rate for Terran in TvP (arguably the larger issue here) has absolutely nothing going for it. 3) That the mantra is WRONG WRONG WRONG and people are still defending it. Look at last month in Korea, Terran is favoured in TvP (very, very slightly - it's pretty much even). Look at the month before, it's exactly the same. Then look at the overall stats, and see that they're also much closer to even for TvP in previous months. If you make balance changes every month and never let balance settle, you're never really going to know whether or not the balance changes are helping. There needs to be sustained imbalance before people start flipping out and making changes everywhere, in my opinion. Only TvZ is close to that stage right now and Blizzard are already looking v. closely at TvZ.
A much better answer, I can see that point. So if the trend continues of low 40s win% for Terran, there might be a patch aimed at that. Makes sense.
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On September 04 2013 02:28 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 02:21 Sated wrote:On September 04 2013 02:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 04 2013 02:08 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On September 04 2013 02:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
So... looking at these numbers, the game is in a terrible state. Why is everyone constantly chanting the mantra of "best balance the game has seen in a long time", "don't disrupt the win rates", and other equivalent BS?
Blizzard has stated frequently throughout the history of SC2 that anything outside of 45/55 win rates is considered "imbalanced" by their own definition. 2/3 of their MU are imbalanced and we sit by with shit like the overseer speed buff because we don't want to disrupt the balance of the game?
I don't get it. Why isn't this a bigger deal? Given that Overseer speed buff aids the 45% party in ZvT, and has no effect on PvT, what would be the complaint? 1) That the overseer buff was called "nice, but useless" before the patch was even release and has proven to be about as effective as predicted. 2) That the 42% win rate for Terran in TvP (arguably the larger issue here) has absolutely nothing going for it. 3) That the mantra is WRONG WRONG WRONG and people are still defending it. Look at last month in Korea, Terran is favoured in TvP (very, very slightly - it's pretty much even). Look at the month before, it's exactly the same. Then look at the overall stats, and see that they're also much closer to even for TvP in previous months. If you make balance changes every month and never let balance settle, you're never really going to know whether or not the balance changes are helping. There needs to be sustained imbalance before people start flipping out and making changes everywhere, in my opinion. Only TvZ is close to that stage right now and Blizzard are already looking v. closely at TvZ. A much better answer, I can see that point. So if the trend continues of low 40s win% for Terran, there might be a patch aimed at that. Makes sense.
You also don't want to respond on a month by month basis on balance. It just causes people to complain more and devalues the wins obtained in the previous month. They also don't want to make the next "Queen Buff" and totally break the game again(I know the queen buff didnt' break the game, but we all know the type of buff we are talking about). If Blizzard wants to shake stuff up, they should do it after the finals at Blizzcon and then do a huge "quality of life" patch to pull some units into the meta game.
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On September 04 2013 02:28 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 02:21 Sated wrote:On September 04 2013 02:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 04 2013 02:08 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On September 04 2013 02:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
So... looking at these numbers, the game is in a terrible state. Why is everyone constantly chanting the mantra of "best balance the game has seen in a long time", "don't disrupt the win rates", and other equivalent BS?
Blizzard has stated frequently throughout the history of SC2 that anything outside of 45/55 win rates is considered "imbalanced" by their own definition. 2/3 of their MU are imbalanced and we sit by with shit like the overseer speed buff because we don't want to disrupt the balance of the game?
I don't get it. Why isn't this a bigger deal? Given that Overseer speed buff aids the 45% party in ZvT, and has no effect on PvT, what would be the complaint? 1) That the overseer buff was called "nice, but useless" before the patch was even release and has proven to be about as effective as predicted. 2) That the 42% win rate for Terran in TvP (arguably the larger issue here) has absolutely nothing going for it. 3) That the mantra is WRONG WRONG WRONG and people are still defending it. Look at last month in Korea, Terran is favoured in TvP (very, very slightly - it's pretty much even). Look at the month before, it's exactly the same. Then look at the overall stats, and see that they're also much closer to even for TvP in previous months. If you make balance changes every month and never let balance settle, you're never really going to know whether or not the balance changes are helping. There needs to be sustained imbalance before people start flipping out and making changes everywhere, in my opinion. Only TvZ is close to that stage right now and Blizzard are already looking v. closely at TvZ. A much better answer, I can see that point. So if the trend continues of low 40s win% for Terran, there might be a patch aimed at that. Makes sense.
I agree with this. For precedent, they did nerf the Infestor after a long period of supremacy in ZvP. And then some more in Heart of the Swarm.
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I think blizzard is scared to change tvp too much because it's the weird case of a match up that is imbalanced for the not quite best players in the world in favor of protoss but imbalanced the other way for the very best Terran's in the world at the match up -- innovation, apparently (and once again) Taeja and maybe FLash. Taeja and Innovation especially make the match up seem highly in favor of Terran, because of impeccable micro (in Innovation's case) and more or less perfect late game end army control (in both Taeja's and Innovation's cases).
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Everyone here debating 45/55 winrates over 100 games is a complete moron. None of you know even the tiniest amount about statistics if you believe that these numbers say anything about the state of balance other than that it's pretty good.
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On September 04 2013 03:18 manniefresh wrote:
Tanks need a buff!
For what ? TvZ ? Because you can buff them all day they still do the same damage to a Immortal's shield in TvP.
Against zerg really Terrans do not need buffs, Zerg is struggling enough vs the cost effectiveness of Widow Mines and 4M, your just being silly.
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On September 03 2013 21:14 Buchan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 18:06 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
every month the terran tears are so delicious Why aren't posts like this banned or warned? I see these kind of posts quite a bit and they add nothing to the conversation except for flame baiting.
If you want a post warned/banned, hit the "Report" button, and a moderator will look at it later.
The moderators can't see EVERYTHING!
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On September 04 2013 03:25 Lysanias wrote:For what ? TvZ ? Because you can buff them all day they still do the same damage to a Immortal's shield in TvP.
Remove harden shield, make immortals cheaper, buff tank. Now we all have crazy broken shit and I can stop building so many stalkers.
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On September 04 2013 03:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 03:25 Lysanias wrote:On September 04 2013 03:18 manniefresh wrote:
Tanks need a buff! For what ? TvZ ? Because you can buff them all day they still do the same damage to a Immortal's shield in TvP. Remove harden shield, make immortals cheaper, buff tank. Now we all have crazy broken shit and I can stop building so many stalkers.
Buffing tanks is just going to mess up any roach play a zerg would ever want to try instead of going the usual ling/bane.
You are basicly going to narrow down what Zerg can do to Terran even more, wich is in fact the problem that is TvZ already.
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On September 04 2013 03:29 Lysanias wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 03:27 Plansix wrote:On September 04 2013 03:25 Lysanias wrote:On September 04 2013 03:18 manniefresh wrote:
Tanks need a buff! For what ? TvZ ? Because you can buff them all day they still do the same damage to a Immortal's shield in TvP. Remove harden shield, make immortals cheaper, buff tank. Now we all have crazy broken shit and I can stop building so many stalkers. Buffing tanks is just going to mess up any roach play a zerg would ever want to try instead of going the usual ling/bane. You are basicly going to narrow down what Zerg can do to Terran even more, wich is in fact the problem that is TvZ already.
yeah, I am not serious. The only think buffing tanks would do it make Tank/Marine/Mine more awesome. Tanks are neat, but its just another unit that would rain down AOE damage and force zergs to avoid the damage. If they are going to buff tanks, they need to make them set up and tear down faster. Straight damage buffs will just make the game more stale, not less.
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On September 04 2013 03:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 03:29 Lysanias wrote:On September 04 2013 03:27 Plansix wrote:On September 04 2013 03:25 Lysanias wrote:On September 04 2013 03:18 manniefresh wrote:
Tanks need a buff! For what ? TvZ ? Because you can buff them all day they still do the same damage to a Immortal's shield in TvP. Remove harden shield, make immortals cheaper, buff tank. Now we all have crazy broken shit and I can stop building so many stalkers. Buffing tanks is just going to mess up any roach play a zerg would ever want to try instead of going the usual ling/bane. You are basicly going to narrow down what Zerg can do to Terran even more, wich is in fact the problem that is TvZ already. yeah, I am not serious. The only think buffing tanks would do it make Tank/Marine/Mine more awesome. Tanks are neat, but its just another unit that would rain down AOE damage and force zergs to avoid the damage. If they are going to buff tanks, they need to make them set up and tear down faster. Straight damage buffs will just make the game more stale, not less.
I would be okay with an Armory level Tech Lab Factory upgrade that decreases Tank Siege/Unsiege time. Heck, remove Drilling Claws and replace it with an upgrade that makes Tanks Siege 2 seconds faster.
Alternatively, I'm actually not opposed to straight damage buffs on the Tank. Yes Immortals still wreck shit, but decent Ghost usage can help mitigate that. Damage buffs might mean that Chargelots ALSO no longer completely giggle at Tank shots.
Alternatively alternatively, keep those combined Armory upgrades and simultaneously tweak Swarm Hosts. I'll still bet on 3-3 Tanks backed by 3-3 Viking/Banshee any day of the week. I'll spend the extra gas on a few Ghosts and lol my way all over any Protoss composition that isn't 100% HT/Tempest/Immortal max upgraded.
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On September 03 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 03:05 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 03 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:
As expected. Zergs are still winning, but have not cracked the terran code yet. PvT is still PvT. PvZ is weird as always and no on really knows what to expect, except that it will involve a lot of force fields. Question is how they are winning, not do they. Last time I checked, a win is a win. We don't qualify them, or at least we shouldn't.
If the TvZ winrate was 50% but 11/11 rax was the only way to win, and 11/11 rax won every game, I wouldn't call that balanced.
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On September 04 2013 03:18 manniefresh wrote:
Tanks need a buff!
For what ? TvZ ? Because you can buff them all day they still do the same damage to a Immortal's shield in TvP.
Against zerg really Terrans do not need buffs, Zerg is struggling enough vs the cost effectiveness of Widow Mines and 4M, your just being silly.
My suggested tank buff is called "Double Shot", researched from armory, it would be an upgrade:
It would allow tanks two shots from siege mode for half damage
this would:
1) make tanks viable in tvp vs immortals
2) not really change/make them worse in tvz cause they wouldn't 1 shot banes or lings
3) hopefully not change tvt
your thoughts??
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My other changes fyi:
1) +1 armor to carriers
2) remove drilling claws from the game
3) fix fungal growth (aka slight buff)
4) buff ghosts (lots of options)
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I'm okay with a cyclical balance like this, P > T > Z > P
The numbers themselves are still a little lopsided (i.e. Protoss pwns Terran way more than Zerg pwns Protoss), but if an absolute balance is unattainable, then a cyclical balance is also fine.
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Pretty balanced, but I think that 4M is still very hard to punish  , even if terran has no info on the zerg's camp
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EPT
