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On September 03 2013 19:14 Satiinifi wrote:
I wonder what made them impliment MSC as it is to the game, any decent player who would have tested to play against it or play with it 10 games should have been able to tell easily, that its a totally rigged unit that does not belong to this game as it is.
Isn´t David Kim a GM player with all 3 races. I´m sure he knows best! 
On September 03 2013 19:09 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 18:56 TeeTS wrote:
Well I said it the day hellbat nerf was announced, that PvT will swing massively into favor of protoss and here we are. TvZ is a mess too. The only matchup that seems somehow working right now is PvZ. We have a lategame where both sides have options to win, we have several routes for both sides to get there and stable winratios around 50%.
The other 2 matchups are a huge clusterfuck. In TvZ both sides are forced into one and only one composition for basically the whole game and zerg suffers just way too much from widow mines and medivac speed. Ofc if you would take away only one of those puzzle pieces from terran, we would have a huge swing and terran would´ve a lot of trouble winning at all against Zerg.
I don´t see those issues solved by David Kim. Until he (and his team) is replaced, I don´t see a chance for a good solution. I would be more than happy if he could surprise me here. I'm a T so obviously I'm going to be biased, but personally I'm byfar more concerned for TvP rather than ZvT. I think there are plenty of buffs that Blizzard can implement for TvZ since it's such a specific problem imo of terran being able to pressure to hard and preventing Z from getting hive. TvP is just a huge clusterfuck of mothership core(which is pretty vital in PvZ) allowing to much greed while T can't be greedy and lategame favours P. I just don't really see a fix to that issue except changes that effect PvZ hard too.
TvZ is as problematic as TvP. If you take away MSC then P dies hard to drop harassment at all stages of the game. In TvZ you can´t really buff zerg units, because you will fuck up PvZ with it and if you take away anything from terran, then they´ll get rolled here too.
These problems can´t be solved by a single change. We need a somewhat gamechanging package of changes to all 3 races to solve these issues. You won´t get a balanced game by changing a single unit!
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On September 03 2013 19:33 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 19:14 Satiinifi wrote:
I wonder what made them impliment MSC as it is to the game, any decent player who would have tested to play against it or play with it 10 games should have been able to tell easily, that its a totally rigged unit that does not belong to this game as it is. Isn´t David Kim a GM player with all 3 races. I´m sure he knows best! Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 19:09 Zarahtra wrote:On September 03 2013 18:56 TeeTS wrote:
Well I said it the day hellbat nerf was announced, that PvT will swing massively into favor of protoss and here we are. TvZ is a mess too. The only matchup that seems somehow working right now is PvZ. We have a lategame where both sides have options to win, we have several routes for both sides to get there and stable winratios around 50%.
The other 2 matchups are a huge clusterfuck. In TvZ both sides are forced into one and only one composition for basically the whole game and zerg suffers just way too much from widow mines and medivac speed. Ofc if you would take away only one of those puzzle pieces from terran, we would have a huge swing and terran would´ve a lot of trouble winning at all against Zerg.
I don´t see those issues solved by David Kim. Until he (and his team) is replaced, I don´t see a chance for a good solution. I would be more than happy if he could surprise me here. I'm a T so obviously I'm going to be biased, but personally I'm byfar more concerned for TvP rather than ZvT. I think there are plenty of buffs that Blizzard can implement for TvZ since it's such a specific problem imo of terran being able to pressure to hard and preventing Z from getting hive. TvP is just a huge clusterfuck of mothership core(which is pretty vital in PvZ) allowing to much greed while T can't be greedy and lategame favours P. I just don't really see a fix to that issue except changes that effect PvZ hard too. TvZ is as problematic as TvP. If you take away MSC then P dies hard to drop harassment at all stages of the game. In TvZ you can´t really buff zerg units, because you will fuck up PvZ with it and if you take away anything from terran, then they´ll get rolled here too. These problems can´t be solved by a single change. We need a somewhat gamechanging package of changes to all 3 races to solve these issues. You won´t get a balanced game by changing a single unit!
Well atleast on the pro level I think changing +3/+3 upgrade requirement will be enough to shift the balance quite a bit. You can see the meta is basically T hits 2/2 and then just suffocates the zerg until 3/3 is done, then zerg is screwed. That isn't to say I wouldn't love a bigger change for TvZ since I miss marine tank a lot, but I don't think a big change is needed to shift the balance.
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On September 03 2013 19:42 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 19:33 TeeTS wrote:On September 03 2013 19:14 Satiinifi wrote:
I wonder what made them impliment MSC as it is to the game, any decent player who would have tested to play against it or play with it 10 games should have been able to tell easily, that its a totally rigged unit that does not belong to this game as it is. Isn´t David Kim a GM player with all 3 races. I´m sure he knows best! On September 03 2013 19:09 Zarahtra wrote:On September 03 2013 18:56 TeeTS wrote:
Well I said it the day hellbat nerf was announced, that PvT will swing massively into favor of protoss and here we are. TvZ is a mess too. The only matchup that seems somehow working right now is PvZ. We have a lategame where both sides have options to win, we have several routes for both sides to get there and stable winratios around 50%.
The other 2 matchups are a huge clusterfuck. In TvZ both sides are forced into one and only one composition for basically the whole game and zerg suffers just way too much from widow mines and medivac speed. Ofc if you would take away only one of those puzzle pieces from terran, we would have a huge swing and terran would´ve a lot of trouble winning at all against Zerg.
I don´t see those issues solved by David Kim. Until he (and his team) is replaced, I don´t see a chance for a good solution. I would be more than happy if he could surprise me here. I'm a T so obviously I'm going to be biased, but personally I'm byfar more concerned for TvP rather than ZvT. I think there are plenty of buffs that Blizzard can implement for TvZ since it's such a specific problem imo of terran being able to pressure to hard and preventing Z from getting hive. TvP is just a huge clusterfuck of mothership core(which is pretty vital in PvZ) allowing to much greed while T can't be greedy and lategame favours P. I just don't really see a fix to that issue except changes that effect PvZ hard too. TvZ is as problematic as TvP. If you take away MSC then P dies hard to drop harassment at all stages of the game. In TvZ you can´t really buff zerg units, because you will fuck up PvZ with it and if you take away anything from terran, then they´ll get rolled here too. These problems can´t be solved by a single change. We need a somewhat gamechanging package of changes to all 3 races to solve these issues. You won´t get a balanced game by changing a single unit! Well atleast on the pro level I think changing +3/+3 upgrade requirement will be enough to shift the balance quite a bit. You can see the meta is basically T hits 2/2 and then just suffocates the zerg until 3/3 is done, then zerg is screwed. That isn't to say I wouldn't love a bigger change for TvZ since I miss marine tank a lot, but I don't think a big change is needed to shift the balance.
there are several things blizz can do to fix this. there are small fixes that just balance winrates or big fixes that fix balance AND bring back fun with more viable comps and harrass for all races. small fixes could be +3 +3 on IP + planetary nexus nerfed. both would mean TvP lategame stays a mess with P being favored but T can do more early and midgame damage + TvZ would be more balanced but still be MMMM vs ling bane muta every game while TvP MMMVG every game.
big fixes would include buffs to ZvT hydras, SHs, BLs, vipers, infestors, ovidrop, nydus, snipe, BC/raven transition, tanks, thors, tempest redesign, oracles etc.
even bigger changes would be designchanges and new units like warpgate redesign, introducing lurker etc. which wont come until LotV.
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There you see the state of the game. Protoss!
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Buffing raven BC is really the way to go in TvP imo as they are both underused in all 3 MU and could be a fearsome army late game for Protoss.
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Solution:
Remove Warpgate Upgrade or double the Cooldown. --> Protoss can still use warpgate to resupplly but not as fast.
Protoss still can produce units from gateways and sit back (as they mostly dow now anyway f they not all in).
Weakens immortal all in, gets rid of fourgate/threegate aggression. Less all in more macro = more nice games.
T has to play aggressive and spread out the protoss, but with nexus cannon/recall/warpin/cannons, its not worth sending2-3 Vital Medevacs with even more vital units into uncertain figths. Protoss can sit on 2 base double forge colossus, if your drop fails, good luck holding back the 3 colossus past 1-1 pushout with 4 vikings at your nat.
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On September 03 2013 18:06 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
every month the terran tears are so delicious
Why aren't posts like this banned or warned? I see these kind of posts quite a bit and they add nothing to the conversation except for flame baiting.
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On September 03 2013 20:31 klup wrote:
Buffing raven BC is really the way to go in TvP imo as they are both underused in all 3 MU and could be a fearsome army late game for Protoss.
I can't really see how skyterran could become viable in TvP (against feedback, tempests and voidrays) without making it utterly imba in TvZ. As a final transition, skyterran makes more sense when you go mech first, so fixing mech would be the very first step. After that .... 
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In WoL with mech TvP I went skyterran as lategame transition. In HotS? No, or better said, hell no. If the toss has some templar then sky toss is simply so much better than skyterran. For that to happen the tempests attack vs massive needs to be heavily nerfed first. But right now battlecruisers are way to hardcountered by tempests. The better voids you could deal with, but as soon as PDDs are gone your battlecruisers will melt away.
And tbh I don't think there is much reason not to nerf tempests attack vs massive. Or better (wishfull thinking) redesign the entire units. It is boring to watch a group of tempests shell everything from extreme range. At the very least also its range could be nerfed. Sure let it outrange broods/colossi. But it doesn't need to kill them from the other side of the map. (Thank god they don't have beta range anymore).
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Late game Terran tech needs a boost to make TvP more interesting.
I always thought it would be cool if Battle cruisers were buffed by giving them a hyperdrive tech that let them warp to any place on the map (long cool down). It would be like Battlestar Galactica. The Adjutant would say "jump" like the Hybrids in BSG when you activate the ability.
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making raven and BC immune to Feedback could be a start
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I wonder if they could toy with making the Hive morphing time a bit less.
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On September 03 2013 03:16 SSVnormandy wrote:
on the manner of the win :
TvP winrate for T count a large number of scv pull alli. Not sure if we can call a game balance when the meta is to pull all your scv and crossfinger to win
ppl did that for years, pretending zvp wasnt utterly disgusting cuz ppl could immortal allin
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Haha the new units are causing the supposed "problems."
TvZ Problem = Widow Mines
ZvP Problem = Super Healing Undying Mutalisks
PvT Problem = MSC
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On September 03 2013 21:57 Salient wrote:
Haha the new units are causing the supposed "problems."
TvZ Problem = Widow Mines
ZvP Problem = Super Healing Undying Mutalisks
PvT Problem = MSC
Buff Thor's splash missiles, mines can no longer damage air?
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On September 03 2013 03:16 SSVnormandy wrote:
on the manner of the win :
TvP winrate for T count a large number of scv pull alli. Not sure if we can call a game balance when the meta is to pull all your scv and crossfinger to win
Large amount? You mean Bomber's WCS finals games.
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On September 03 2013 19:42 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 19:33 TeeTS wrote:On September 03 2013 19:14 Satiinifi wrote:
I wonder what made them impliment MSC as it is to the game, any decent player who would have tested to play against it or play with it 10 games should have been able to tell easily, that its a totally rigged unit that does not belong to this game as it is. Isn´t David Kim a GM player with all 3 races. I´m sure he knows best! On September 03 2013 19:09 Zarahtra wrote:On September 03 2013 18:56 TeeTS wrote:
Well I said it the day hellbat nerf was announced, that PvT will swing massively into favor of protoss and here we are. TvZ is a mess too. The only matchup that seems somehow working right now is PvZ. We have a lategame where both sides have options to win, we have several routes for both sides to get there and stable winratios around 50%.
The other 2 matchups are a huge clusterfuck. In TvZ both sides are forced into one and only one composition for basically the whole game and zerg suffers just way too much from widow mines and medivac speed. Ofc if you would take away only one of those puzzle pieces from terran, we would have a huge swing and terran would´ve a lot of trouble winning at all against Zerg.
I don´t see those issues solved by David Kim. Until he (and his team) is replaced, I don´t see a chance for a good solution. I would be more than happy if he could surprise me here. I'm a T so obviously I'm going to be biased, but personally I'm byfar more concerned for TvP rather than ZvT. I think there are plenty of buffs that Blizzard can implement for TvZ since it's such a specific problem imo of terran being able to pressure to hard and preventing Z from getting hive. TvP is just a huge clusterfuck of mothership core(which is pretty vital in PvZ) allowing to much greed while T can't be greedy and lategame favours P. I just don't really see a fix to that issue except changes that effect PvZ hard too. TvZ is as problematic as TvP. If you take away MSC then P dies hard to drop harassment at all stages of the game. In TvZ you can´t really buff zerg units, because you will fuck up PvZ with it and if you take away anything from terran, then they´ll get rolled here too. These problems can´t be solved by a single change. We need a somewhat gamechanging package of changes to all 3 races to solve these issues. You won´t get a balanced game by changing a single unit! Well atleast on the pro level I think changing +3/+3 upgrade requirement will be enough to shift the balance quite a bit. You can see the meta is basically T hits 2/2 and then just suffocates the zerg until 3/3 is done, then zerg is screwed. That isn't to say I wouldn't love a bigger change for TvZ since I miss marine tank a lot, but I don't think a big change is needed to shift the balance.
And by making 3/3 harder to obtain you're essentially buffing double forge builds in PvT. 3/3 timings from Toss become even stronger.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 03 2013 21:57 Salient wrote:
Haha the new units are causing the supposed "problems."
TvZ Problem = Widow Mines
ZvP Problem = Super Healing Undying Mutalisks
PvT Problem = MSC
Solution: leave infestor's fungal in HotS state, revert all the other changes to WoL, whine from everyone ensues!
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 03 2013 22:40 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 19:42 Zarahtra wrote:On September 03 2013 19:33 TeeTS wrote:On September 03 2013 19:14 Satiinifi wrote:
I wonder what made them impliment MSC as it is to the game, any decent player who would have tested to play against it or play with it 10 games should have been able to tell easily, that its a totally rigged unit that does not belong to this game as it is. Isn´t David Kim a GM player with all 3 races. I´m sure he knows best! On September 03 2013 19:09 Zarahtra wrote:On September 03 2013 18:56 TeeTS wrote:
Well I said it the day hellbat nerf was announced, that PvT will swing massively into favor of protoss and here we are. TvZ is a mess too. The only matchup that seems somehow working right now is PvZ. We have a lategame where both sides have options to win, we have several routes for both sides to get there and stable winratios around 50%.
The other 2 matchups are a huge clusterfuck. In TvZ both sides are forced into one and only one composition for basically the whole game and zerg suffers just way too much from widow mines and medivac speed. Ofc if you would take away only one of those puzzle pieces from terran, we would have a huge swing and terran would´ve a lot of trouble winning at all against Zerg.
I don´t see those issues solved by David Kim. Until he (and his team) is replaced, I don´t see a chance for a good solution. I would be more than happy if he could surprise me here. I'm a T so obviously I'm going to be biased, but personally I'm byfar more concerned for TvP rather than ZvT. I think there are plenty of buffs that Blizzard can implement for TvZ since it's such a specific problem imo of terran being able to pressure to hard and preventing Z from getting hive. TvP is just a huge clusterfuck of mothership core(which is pretty vital in PvZ) allowing to much greed while T can't be greedy and lategame favours P. I just don't really see a fix to that issue except changes that effect PvZ hard too. TvZ is as problematic as TvP. If you take away MSC then P dies hard to drop harassment at all stages of the game. In TvZ you can´t really buff zerg units, because you will fuck up PvZ with it and if you take away anything from terran, then they´ll get rolled here too. These problems can´t be solved by a single change. We need a somewhat gamechanging package of changes to all 3 races to solve these issues. You won´t get a balanced game by changing a single unit! Well atleast on the pro level I think changing +3/+3 upgrade requirement will be enough to shift the balance quite a bit. You can see the meta is basically T hits 2/2 and then just suffocates the zerg until 3/3 is done, then zerg is screwed. That isn't to say I wouldn't love a bigger change for TvZ since I miss marine tank a lot, but I don't think a big change is needed to shift the balance. And by making 3/3 harder to obtain you're essentially buffing double forge builds in PvT. 3/3 timings from Toss become even stronger.
I guess makes sense to make 3-3 harder to get for toss too :3
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On September 03 2013 22:40 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 19:42 Zarahtra wrote:On September 03 2013 19:33 TeeTS wrote:On September 03 2013 19:14 Satiinifi wrote:
I wonder what made them impliment MSC as it is to the game, any decent player who would have tested to play against it or play with it 10 games should have been able to tell easily, that its a totally rigged unit that does not belong to this game as it is. Isn´t David Kim a GM player with all 3 races. I´m sure he knows best! On September 03 2013 19:09 Zarahtra wrote:On September 03 2013 18:56 TeeTS wrote:
Well I said it the day hellbat nerf was announced, that PvT will swing massively into favor of protoss and here we are. TvZ is a mess too. The only matchup that seems somehow working right now is PvZ. We have a lategame where both sides have options to win, we have several routes for both sides to get there and stable winratios around 50%.
The other 2 matchups are a huge clusterfuck. In TvZ both sides are forced into one and only one composition for basically the whole game and zerg suffers just way too much from widow mines and medivac speed. Ofc if you would take away only one of those puzzle pieces from terran, we would have a huge swing and terran would´ve a lot of trouble winning at all against Zerg.
I don´t see those issues solved by David Kim. Until he (and his team) is replaced, I don´t see a chance for a good solution. I would be more than happy if he could surprise me here. I'm a T so obviously I'm going to be biased, but personally I'm byfar more concerned for TvP rather than ZvT. I think there are plenty of buffs that Blizzard can implement for TvZ since it's such a specific problem imo of terran being able to pressure to hard and preventing Z from getting hive. TvP is just a huge clusterfuck of mothership core(which is pretty vital in PvZ) allowing to much greed while T can't be greedy and lategame favours P. I just don't really see a fix to that issue except changes that effect PvZ hard too. TvZ is as problematic as TvP. If you take away MSC then P dies hard to drop harassment at all stages of the game. In TvZ you can´t really buff zerg units, because you will fuck up PvZ with it and if you take away anything from terran, then they´ll get rolled here too. These problems can´t be solved by a single change. We need a somewhat gamechanging package of changes to all 3 races to solve these issues. You won´t get a balanced game by changing a single unit! Well atleast on the pro level I think changing +3/+3 upgrade requirement will be enough to shift the balance quite a bit. You can see the meta is basically T hits 2/2 and then just suffocates the zerg until 3/3 is done, then zerg is screwed. That isn't to say I wouldn't love a bigger change for TvZ since I miss marine tank a lot, but I don't think a big change is needed to shift the balance. And by making 3/3 harder to obtain you're essentially buffing double forge builds in PvT. 3/3 timings from Toss become even stronger.
I was talking about in the other direction, to reduce the requirement of Z upgrades, since +3/+3 for both T and P don't require an extra building, but Z requires 2(that aren't even done at same time). I don't really think it will change that much in ZvP, since hive tech is a lot more desireble in ZvP anyway.
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EPT
